Dolphins: Year Tua

Should Miami Trade for Deshaun Watson

  • Yes. Deshaun is a star. Take the known entity.

    Votes: 68 70.8%
  • No. Build around Tua and forge a stronger overall team.

    Votes: 28 29.2%

  • Total voters
    96
  • Poll closed .

rymflaherty

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Makes those early season loses hurt even more though, especially the Jaguars game.
For my own sanity, a few weeks ago, I started viewing those games through a butterfly effect lens.
If they eek out a win vs. the Jags, there’s no guarantee they would be in a better spot. Maybe it took that seemingly rock bottom and 1-7 start to really rally behind Flores and Tua, and put them in better position for long term success…at least that’s what I was telling myself.


In terms of Tua, more than anything, doesn’t it come down to whether the team wants to run an RPO offense?
If the RPO offense is something they actually believe in and want to continue to build on, it certainly aligns with Tua as the QB.
But if they were running that offense out of necessity and simply as a way to mask the offenses deficiencies, I’d think there’s a handful of QB’s (and not just the big names) they’d rather have.
 

sodenj5

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For my own sanity, a few weeks ago, I started viewing those games through a butterfly effect lens.
If they eek out a win vs. the Jags, there’s no guarantee they would be in a better spot. Maybe it took that seemingly rock bottom and 1-7 start to really rally behind Flores and Tua, and put them in better position for long term success…at least that’s what I was telling myself.


In terms of Tua, more than anything, doesn’t it come down to whether the team wants to run an RPO offense?
If the RPO offense is something they actually believe in and want to continue to build on, it certainly aligns with Tua as the QB.
But if they were running that offense out of necessity and simply as a way to mask the offenses deficiencies, I’d think there’s a handful of QB’s (and not just the big names) they’d rather have.
I mean they’ve run an RPO offense without the R for most of the season and with maybe the worst line in the league.

I said it already, but it’s pretty damning that Duke Johnson and Phillip Lindsay came in and made Gaskin and Ahmed and Brown irrelevant. And should be added to the list of shortcomings on the offensive side of the ball for the entire organization.

I would very much be in favor of taking someone like Jay Gruden or Bill O’Brien and letting them run that side of the team. Flores has tried it his way several times and Miami doesn’t look significantly closer to being competitive on that side of the ball.
 

sodenj5

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Hey Mia fans, why does half your fanbase want to get rid of Flo?

I do not get it, in my mind the issue is clearly Tua and that Oline.
People are weird. Flores was certainly on the hot seat earlier in the year when they were 1-7. That was inexcusably bad.

Marching all the way back from that, winning 8 of the last 9 is very impressive, regardless of opponents.

He isn’t without flaws. The offense under his watch hasn’t been great. The O Line has been terrible the last several years despite a massive investment in draft capital. The team has started far too slow the last two seasons and probably cost them the playoffs twice.

But Miami has back to back winning seasons for the first time in nearly 20 years. They won yesterday when they had zero incentive to win other than playing for pride.

Flores is a good coach. If you cut him lose, he’s going to be a good coach for someone else.
 

rymflaherty

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The coaching criticisms over on Dolphins Reddit usually make my head want to explode…

I have to imagine much of it is simply due to “fire the coach” being the most simplistic way to view things and a way to provide misguided hope.
And, maybe this is an assumption I shouldn’t make, some of the vitriol toward Flores is so misguided and illogical, I’ve gotten to the point where I assume there’s a racial component involved and I don’t even bother engaging.

Personally, I’m on the other side of the spectrum, where I wouldn’t even mind if they brought the OC’s back (maybe elevating one to OC makes sense though). To me the defining characteristic to most poorly run franchises is a lack of continuity and stability.
It’s my belief that the majority of coaches:front office types are competent. It’s the exception to be exceptionally awful or amazing regardless of situation.
That’s not to say there aren’t times where a change makes sense, but I think the way the team turned this season around indicates Flores doesn’t deserve that fate.
Right now, to me, Miami has a lot of people that are at least competent, and I think maintaining a shared vision and continuity outweighs the small chance they find a true upgrade.
 

sodenj5

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The offense was his downfall. I have no idea how you can can Flores and Chris Grier keeps his job.
 

sodenj5

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What a fucking stupendously idiotic move from the Dolphins.
Ross has had a love boner for Harbaugh going back nearly a decade. If he’s leaving for the NFL, it’s the only thing that makes sense to me. Ross is a big time Michigan booster, so this is him trying to hold his precious.
 

Gash Prex

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As a pats fan, that makes me happy. Now they just need to build around Tua and Bill O'Brien.
 

Ferm Sheller

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OMG, I never would have thought for a minute that Flores's job was in jeopardy. The Dolphins underachieved again, but they always do. Where do they go from here? Back to square none.
 

sodenj5

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OMG, I never would have thought for a minute that Flores's job was in jeopardy. The Dolphins underachieved again, but they always do. Where do they go from here? Back to square none.
His inability to build a cohesive offensive staff in 3 years was his undoing. I’m not trying to bury him, but there has been some tremendous turnover there and not enough positive development outside of basically Jaylen Waddle.

He’s going to be a good coach for someone. When he gets a second crack at it he will be sure to hire a veteran OC. He’s smart and hopefully will learn from this experience.
 

sodenj5

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He's 13-8 with Tua as his QB. He won 5 games his first year with a roster that could have gone 0-16 based on talent, then had back to back winning seasons.

It's a ridiculous decision.
Just watched a Rapport segment and he said there was tension between Grier and Flores and essentially it was going to be Flores or Grier and Ross decided to go with the guy that has been with the organization for over 20 years and overseen decades of mediocrity versus the guy who just lead them to back to back winning seasons for the first time in like 18 years.

It made some sense if they wanted to clean house and say it wasn’t good enough, but to keep Grier and can Flores when Grier basically whiffed on the most critical draft in franchise history is baffling.
 

Ferm Sheller

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His inability to build a cohesive offensive staff in 3 years was his undoing. I’m not trying to bury him, but there has been some tremendous turnover there and not enough positive development outside of basically Jaylen Waddle.

He’s going to be a good coach for someone. When he gets a second crack at it he will be sure to hire a veteran OC. He’s smart and hopefully will learn from this experience.
They haven't had a HC last more than three seasons in the past 20 years, and in a QB-driven league Flores has been saddled with a journeyman vet and a rookie/2nd year QB. At some point, they're going to have to stick with a HC for more than a few seasons.
 

RG33

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Perhaps Ross heard that Urban Meyer was available?

This is a stunner to me. Aside from the obvious bad start, Flores had built them into a respectable team again, and despite Tua’s shortcomings, was 13-8 with him as his starting QB. With all of the OL issues and the lack of a real RB for most of the year, this feels pretty inexplicable. There is either a big splash coming or Ross just remains a fucking moron.
 

sodenj5

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They haven't had a HC last more than three seasons in the past 20 years, and in a QB-driven league Flores has been saddled with a journeyman vet and a rookie/2nd year QB. At some point, they're going to have to stick with a HC for more than a few seasons.
That’s why I think this has to be to clear the position for Harbaugh. Ross will basically give him an infinite leash because he’s the guy he has always wanted, Michigan ties, and he thinks he can build an offense, probably around Tua and Waddle.

Gase clearly wasn’t the answer. Joe Philbin clearly wasn’t the answer. Brian Flores might have been the answer if given a little more time.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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That’s why I think this has to be to clear the position for Harbaugh. Ross will basically give him an infinite leash because he’s the guy he has always wanted, Michigan ties, and he thinks he can build an offense, probably around Tua and Waddle.

Gase clearly wasn’t the answer. Joe Philbin clearly wasn’t the answer. Brian Flores might have been the answer if given a little more time.
Harbaugh was booted from SF because of power struggles with his GM. Now he'll be coming into a situation where the GM (who sucks) just won a power struggle with a coach who was pretty successful. This seems like a recipe for disaster.
 

JokersWildJIMED

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That’s why I think this has to be to clear the position for Harbaugh. Ross will basically give him an infinite leash because he’s the guy he has always wanted, Michigan ties, and he thinks he can build an offense, probably around Tua and Waddle.

Gase clearly wasn’t the answer. Joe Philbin clearly wasn’t the answer. Brian Flores might have been the answer if given a little more time.
Doubt it...Harbaugh is going to want complete control and he would have that in other cities (i.e. Chicago).
 

JokersWildJIMED

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Darlington is tweeting it was all about relationships, stating that essentially Flores couldn't get along with key people (Grier, Tua, etc.) Van Noy might back this up. The Tua / Fitz mess last year, OC disasters over the years may have not inspired ultimate confidence.
 

rymflaherty

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Don’t even know why I’m bothering wasting any brain power on this, should have just stuck with my last post, but am I to assume Grier is all aboard on Tua?

I can’t help but think that would limit the search, I’m not sure that being forced to inherit Tua is going to be all that attractive to any candidate that feels like they have options.
 

Fishercat

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We definitely don't know all of the internals on this, I will just say that given the roster composition and Miami's performance relative to it, I am thrilled as a Pats fan that Flores will be doing his work (hopefully) out of the division. It feels like a fairly big error unless they are all in on Tua and the Flores/Tua relationship was so strained that it wasn't feasible to continue.
 

JokersWildJIMED

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Don’t even know why I’m bothering wasting any brain power on this, should have just stuck with my last post, but am I to assume Grier is all aboard on Tua?

I can’t help but think that would limit the search, I’m not sure that being forced to inherit Tua is going to be all that attractive to any candidate that feels like they have options.
Siding with a Grier over your head coach? Sounds awfully familiar to 1997.
 

Mooch

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Any chance the Pats bring Flores back for the playoffs? If I'm Bill, I make the call RIGHT NOW.
 

sodenj5

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Darlington is tweeting it was all about relationships, stating that essentially Flores couldn't get along with key people (Grier, Tua, etc.) Van Noy might back this up. The Tua / Fitz mess last year, OC disasters over the years may have not inspired ultimate confidence.
There have been rumblings that Flores is difficult to work with for a while. Jim Caldwell was brought in to help Flores and peaced out after like 3 days. Tua’s trainer tweeted that players have said that Flores is difficult to approach and play for. The Giant’s DC Patrick Graham left for a lateral move to the Giants, despite being “best friends” with Flores. Obviously we saw what happened with Minkah.

In regards to Tua, Flores handled the QB position the way he handles the MLB position. At some point, regardless of your attempts to win, you need to ride with your chosen guy. Him reinserting Tua into the Baltimore game despite being the “emergency backup QB” was very odd. He was too hurt to start, but good enough when Jacoby was struggling.

I would not be shocked if Flores is hired by another team and coaches next year. For his shortcomings, he had Miami punching above their weight and playing hard with nothing to play for.
 

BaseballJones

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Any chance the Pats bring Flores back for the playoffs? If I'm Bill, I make the call RIGHT NOW.
ABSOLUTELY. Holy crap Flores brought a lousy franchise to respectability. He went 4-2 against Belichick. What in the world is Miami thinking?

I mean, this is GREAT news for the Patriots, but no comfort to Dolphin fans. He's a damned good coach.
 

Granite Sox

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That’s why I think this has to be to clear the position for Harbaugh. Ross will basically give him an infinite leash because he’s the guy he has always wanted, Michigan ties, and he thinks he can build an offense, probably around Tua and Waddle.
Harbaugh was booted from SF because of power struggles with his GM. Now he'll be coming into a situation where the GM (who sucks) just won a power struggle with a coach who was pretty successful. This seems like a recipe for disaster.
I agree with SJH... based on his SF experience, I don't think there is a chance in hell that Harbaugh would agree to be the HC with Grier in place. And Ross isn't going to whack TWO minority HC/GMs for the chance to lure Harbaugh... that would be a catastrophic PR blunder aside from mishandling the two most important football leadership positions. This is a colossal fuck-up by the Dolphins. Even if Flores was rubbing people the wrong way, he demonstrated that he is far more competent than the GM, imo.
 

sodenj5

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So who is on the list of coaches for Miami now?

Would have to imagine they’re going to be looking for an offensive minded head coach and maybe try and pair that coach with a Zimmer or Fangio to run the defense.

Kellen Moore?
Byron Leftwich?
Brian Daboll?
 

Oil Can Dan

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I think that press release by the Phins is telling. No thank you's, no nothing. Just a weird bio on his coaching history, which quite frankly I can't recall seeing in a press release announcing a firing before. Reading between the lines there it seems Ross really doesn't like him at all.
 

sodenj5

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I think that press release by the Phins is telling. No thank you's, no nothing. Just a weird bio on his coaching history, which quite frankly I can't recall seeing in a press release announcing a firing before. Reading between the lines there it seems Ross really doesn't like him at all.
Not sure about Ross, but the press conference Ross just had seems to make it very clear that Flores and Grier were not working well together and not collaborating effectively.

Which is funny because it’s likely Flores’s defense and implementation of Jevon Holland and Jaelen Phillips that very well saved Grier’s ass. And the offensive coaching staff implementing an offense that can mask the horrid stench from the O Line that also saved Grier’s ass and their season.

The coaching is certainly not without fault, but nothing Grier has done suggests that he should be the one that’s irreplaceable.
 

cornwalls@6

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So who is on the list of coaches for Miami now?

Would have to imagine they’re going to be looking for an offensive minded head coach and maybe try and pair that coach with a Zimmer or Fangio to run the defense.

Kellen Moore?
Byron Leftwich?
Brian Daboll?
Other than being offensive coaches, everyone of those seems, at best, like a lateral move. If they don't land a big fish(sorry), feels like yet another franchise damaging move by Ross.
 

rymflaherty

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Also, forget the Tua question I posed…what candidate, with options, would even want this job after seeing what Flores accomplished and seeing him get fired for it?!?
 

PedroKsBambino

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Picking Grier over Flores seems to be more about "alignment with Ross" than "quality of performance" from the outside. That's not at all uncommon, but it is also not a great sign for Dolphins.

I agree with others---if you're a top-tier candidate aren't you worried about how you'll be evaluated now? I guess Grier, being a second-generation football guy, may have a network of people he knows and who will trust that they'll get a shot and maybe that's enough.
 

sodenj5

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Other than being offensive coaches, everyone of those seems, at best, like a lateral move. If they don't land a big fish(sorry), feels like yet another franchise damaging move by Ross.
Not sure who is a better alternative? Zimmer as HC? He seems to have a similar issue of not being able to put together a cohesive offense and underperforming. I want no part of Matt Nagy.

I would rather take a chance on a young OC and pair them with a veteran DC, the McVay model, if you will.
 

E5 Yaz

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I spent some time last night thinking that with the Bills at the top, and the Dolphins seemingly having the Patriots number, the next few years would be a grind for the Patriots.

That might still turn out to be the case, but I'm less worried about the Dolphins at the moment.
 

Rice14

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I'm very surprised they sacked Flores, but shocked that Grier didn't join him on the unemployment line. The 2020 draft will set this franchise back years. Three first round picks and right now they all look like busts. Tua, Austin Jackson, and Noah Igbinoghene. I can't believe that he's still employed. What coach is gonna want to tie his wagon to Grier?
 

cornwalls@6

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Not sure who is a better alternative? Zimmer as HC? He seems to have a similar issue of not being able to put together a cohesive offense and underperforming. I want no part of Matt Nagy.

I would rather take a chance on a young OC and pair them with a veteran DC, the McVay model, if you will.
Was thinking more of a big splash like Harbaugh, but your model might be the right one. Not sure why the inverse couldn't have worked though. Hire a bright young position coach to be the OC, with Flores staying in place, and maintaining the clear culture of toughness and competitiveness he's instilled there. Sounds like maybe he wasn't amenable to not having complete say over his staff hires.
 

rymflaherty

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Now that I’ve had some time to digest this, I think it’s pretty obvious where the fault lies…
This is all Ryan Fitzpatrick’s fault…

Or more specifically, it’s Grier’s fault for singing him and Flores’ for playing him over Rosen.
Had they just sucked as intended and got the #1 pick, they’d have Burrow and not created misguided expectations that hastened the speed of the rebuild.
Also no Flores/Tua/Fitz drama that seems to at least be part of the rift…

(and I started this mostly joking, but now I’m not so sure…lol)