Dolphins: Year Tua

Should Miami Trade for Deshaun Watson

  • Yes. Deshaun is a star. Take the known entity.

    Votes: 68 70.8%
  • No. Build around Tua and forge a stronger overall team.

    Votes: 28 29.2%

  • Total voters
    96
  • Poll closed .

Silverdude2167

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I was hoping last night's game would convince Miami to keep Tua. Never in my wildest dreams did I think it would lead to potentially keeping Tua and losing Flo, it's a late x-mas present!
 

Oil Can Dan

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I think that press release by the Phins is telling. No thank you's, no nothing. Just a weird bio on his coaching history, which quite frankly I can't recall seeing in a press release announcing a firing before. Reading between the lines there it seems Ross really doesn't like him at all.
I just reread the press release and see that there was in fact a 'thank you'. More coffee for me...
 

sodenj5

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Just remembered that Brian Daboll and Tua spent some time together down in Tuscaloosa, so that might make the most sense out of the candidates I was listing earlier.

Man, today is wild.
 

cornwalls@6

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Probably a good time to note that lying is to big time sports owners/coaches/gm's, as breathing is to humans. So, until they hire someone not named Harbaugh, or he goes somewhere else, I'm taking all denials with a boulder size grain of salt.
 

sodenj5

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Probably a good time to note that lying is to big time sports owners/coaches/gm's, as breathing is to humans. So, until they hire someone not named Harbaugh, or he goes somewhere else, I'm taking all denials with a boulder size grain of salt.
If Jim Harbaugh is set on leaving Michigan, it would be pretty easy for Ross to say “he was leaving regardless of what we offered so I wanted to try and land him as my head coach once he was set on leaving.”

That being said, it seems unlikely based off of everything I’ve seen this morning.
 

sodenj5

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Listening to the 3 Yards Per Carry podcast, and they’re reporting that last night Flores was asked to make changes to the offensive staff, and Flores refused, and it was after that they decided to move on from Flores.

I said last night that Flores probably needed to hand the offense to an experienced former OC or HC and let them run that side of the ball, but it sounds like it was something he was not interested in, if these guys are to be believed.
 

Cotillion

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But at some point you have to let the offense settle in and have some continuity. You can’t keep changing the system every 2 years or so.
 

sodenj5

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But at some point you have to let the offense settle in and have some continuity. You can’t keep changing the system every 2 years or so.
That’s on Flores’s plate. You can say that O’Shea was a hiring of necessity. Chan Gailey was a massive mis-step. He was never going to be a long term solution, and he dragged him out of retirement to maximize Ryan Fitzpatrick, the stop gap veteran and not the young QB they were drafting. That’s a big red flag.

Then the three headed OC experiment this year was another massive mid-step. He cited continuity for Tua and the offense’s sake, but they also could have just made George Godsey the OC and had the same effect. It felt more like he wanted to maintain tight control over the offense and installing “his guys” at OC in Godsey specifically would allow him to do that.

Flores can no doubt assemble a defense. But in three years he has had massive turnover on the other side of the ball without showing he was any closer to solving the problems there.

FWIW, most things I’ve read today are suggesting that Flores was the driving force behind trying to acquire Deshaun Watson. You can say “he should have because Tua stinks.” That’s fine. But he basically undercut Tua from the moment he got here, pulling him in and out of the lineup for Fitz, sitting him vs Baltimore this year when Tua reportedly was cleared to play and only inserting him when it was clear Jacoby was backfiring on him. That’s not exactly Franchise QB 101 material.
 

steveluck7

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If Jim Harbaugh is set on leaving Michigan, it would be pretty easy for Ross to say “he was leaving regardless of what we offered so I wanted to try and land him as my head coach once he was set on leaving.”

That being said, it seems unlikely based off of everything I’ve seen this morning.
Right. It's also worth noting the dynamics of Ross' relationship with UM. They value his money long-term so I'm sure any hard feelings would be quickly assuaged by some program "upgrades" courtesy of Mr. Ross
 

BaseballJones

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After a terrible start in 2019, the Dolphins under Flores have gone 24-18 (.571). 4-2 against Belichick.

It's crazy that they fired him.
 

DJnVa

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Also, forget the Tua question I posed…what candidate, with options, would even want this job after seeing what Flores accomplished and seeing him get fired for it?!?
It's one of 32 NFL head coaching jobs in the world. There will be plenty of interest.
 

luckiestman

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Maybe fish ownership doesn’t want the rape guy at QB and Flores was pushing for it too much. Something has to be going on here that we do not know.
 

pappymojo

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Maybe fish ownership doesn’t want the rape guy at QB and Flores was pushing for it too much. Something has to be going on here that we do not know.
Maybe fish ownership wants the rape guy at QB.

Just based on career performance I think Flores has done a better job than Grier. Honestly, the Dolphins never seemed to be a poorly coached team with Flores there.
 

luckiestman

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I think it's unclear how much Flores was behind the pursuit of Watson. All those tweets really say is that Watson was interested in Miami because he likes Flores. It's unclear if the feeling was mutual on the Flores side of the ledger.
 

rymflaherty

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Grier was also around while Daboll was OC.
Not sure how much of a relationship, if any, the director of scouting is going to have with an OC, and people are going to change over the course of a decade…but it’s another potential link.
 

sodenj5

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Grier was also around while Daboll was OC.
Not sure how much of a relationship, if any, the director of scouting is going to have with an OC, and people are going to change over the course of a decade…but it’s another potential link.
Also not hard to envision Jaylen Waddle in that Stefon Diggs role in Buffalo’s offense.
 

luckiestman

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Does BB accept Daboll as one of his or does he not like him because he left with Mangenius.
 

sodenj5

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The other name I’ve been seeing a lot, and I believe I tossed him out there yesterday, is Doug Pederson.

Also makes a ton of sense for Miami, and his offense might actually be a better fit for Tua than what Daboll runs currently in Buffalo. We also might actually see Mike Gesicki reach his full potential in a Pederson/Reid offense, which is an exciting concept.

Experienced coach, Super Bowl winner, has previous ties to Miami serving as practice squad/QB3 for Marino under Shula. The larger of a sample size we see of Carson Wentz, the more it looks like Pederson was an actual magician.

I may not be recalling things correctly, but I believe Pederson largely wanted to move on from Wentz, Philly did not, they canned Pederson and got rid of Wentz anyways. Then they played Nate Sudfeld in a game that Washington needed to win and everyone was in an uproar because a 4-11-1 team wasn’t going all out to win.

Regardless of the sequence of events, I would probably list Pederson and Daboll as my 1a. and 1b. for coaching candidates.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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The other name I’ve been seeing a lot, and I believe I tossed him out there yesterday, is Doug Pederson.

Also makes a ton of sense for Miami, and his offense might actually be a better fit for Tua than what Daboll runs currently in Buffalo. We also might actually see Mike Gesicki reach his full potential in a Pederson/Reid offense, which is an exciting concept.

Experienced coach, Super Bowl winner, has previous ties to Miami serving as practice squad/QB3 for Marino under Shula. The larger of a sample size we see of Carson Wentz, the more it looks like Pederson was an actual magician.

I may not be recalling things correctly, but I believe Pederson largely wanted to move on from Wentz, Philly did not, they canned Pederson and got rid of Wentz anyways. Then they played Nate Sudfeld in a game that Washington needed to win and everyone was in an uproar because a 4-11-1 team wasn’t going all out to win.

Regardless of the sequence of events, I would probably list Pederson and Daboll as my 1a. and 1b. for coaching candidates.
Honest question - knowing the grass is always greener, would you prefer Pederson/Daboll over Flores?
 

rymflaherty

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Honest question - knowing the grass is always greener, would you prefer Pederson/Daboll over Flores?
I’d rather have Flores.
But I’m obviously not aware of all the inner workings, so maybe he was a prick and moving on was for the best?
At that point, Daboll would seem like a pretty good hire. He’s an entire unknown as a HC, which is why I answered the way I did, but I view him as a high end candidate.
Nothing about Pederson excites me.

Fwiw - Scanning all the coaching articles the most intriguing name to me was Mike McDaniel, who’s currently Shanahan’s right hand man in SF
 

sodenj5

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Honest question - knowing the grass is always greener, would you prefer Pederson/Daboll over Flores?
I suppose it depends on who is brought in or retained to run the defense.

If Boyer or Gerald Alexander are retained, I feel like there will be enough continuity at defense where there won’t be a significant drop off and you might end up with a net gain of an improved offense and maybe a slight drop in defense. Likewise if Daboll or Pederson were to bring in a veteran like Zimmer or Fangio to run the defense, if they were interested in that. Those guys have a proven history of running great defenses.

If they go off the grid and hire someone relatively inexperienced or new without retaining Boyer or Alexander, I think the defense might take a larger step back as they retool and repurpose players there and maybe the net gain isn’t as significant.

That being said, my first choice was and would have been keeping Flores and him ceding some of the control of the offense to someone else. I think it’s clear he needed some help and he clearly felt that he didn’t need that help, and that seemed like a significant division. He is a good coach and will be a good coach for someone else.

Hopefully he will learn from what happened in Miami and not double down on the things he did wrong at his next stop like Adam Gase.

Edit: also, I know it’s is unlikely, but coaches that get fired that have a year off usually end up better for it. If Flores gets rehired immediately, which seems highly likely, I don’t know if he has the time to reflect on how it went sideways for him and he just dives right back into the job. Again, I wish him nothing but success.
 

Average Reds

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The other name I’ve been seeing a lot, and I believe I tossed him out there yesterday, is Doug Pederson.

Also makes a ton of sense for Miami, and his offense might actually be a better fit for Tua than what Daboll runs currently in Buffalo. We also might actually see Mike Gesicki reach his full potential in a Pederson/Reid offense, which is an exciting concept.

Experienced coach, Super Bowl winner, has previous ties to Miami serving as practice squad/QB3 for Marino under Shula. The larger of a sample size we see of Carson Wentz, the more it looks like Pederson was an actual magician.

I may not be recalling things correctly, but I believe Pederson largely wanted to move on from Wentz, Philly did not, they canned Pederson and got rid of Wentz anyways. Then they played Nate Sudfeld in a game that Washington needed to win and everyone was in an uproar because a 4-11-1 team wasn’t going all out to win.

Regardless of the sequence of events, I would probably list Pederson and Daboll as my 1a. and 1b. for coaching candidates.
As one of the few Eagles’ fans here, I’ll just say that Pederson comes with pluses and minuses.

The pluses are that he is an imaginative offensive coach who will get the most out of his team. If he brings in a strong defensive coordinator, he may be a perfect fit.

The minuses are that he seems to have a difficult time accepting that he won’t be in charge of player personnel. His downfall in Philly wasn’t really related to Wentz (as you note, the team both fired him and moved on from Wentz.) It was more the fact that he didn’t like or respect Howie Roseman (GM) and decided to play the “me or him” card without understanding that he didn’t have that kind of juice with Jeffrey Lurie. That wouldn’t normally concern me, except that the dynamics sound like they are similar to the problem that led to the firing of Flores.

If you can get him and he agrees to play nicely in the sandbox, he’d be an asset to the Dolphins.
 

sodenj5

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As one of the few Eagles’ fans here, I’ll just say that Pederson comes with pluses and minuses.

The pluses are that he is an imaginative offensive coach who will get the most out of his team. If he brings in a strong defensive coordinator, he may be a perfect fit.

The minuses are that he seems to have a difficult time accepting that he won’t be in charge of player personnel. His downfall in Philly wasn’t really related to Wentz (as you note, the team both fired him and moved on from Wentz.) It was more the fact that he didn’t like or respect Howie Roseman (GM) and decided to play the “me or him” card without understanding that he didn’t have that kind of juice with Jeffrey Lurie. That wouldn’t normally concern me, except that the dynamics sound like they are similar to the problem that led to the firing of Flores.

If you can get him and he agrees to play nicely in the sandbox, he’d be an asset to the Dolphins.
Thanks for your input. It’s strange how many coaches think they are Belichick or Parcells and when the rubber meets the road, the GM pretty much always wins the power struggle.

Harbaugh, Pederson, Flores. I’m sure the list goes on. I believe the only guy to really “win” a power struggle recently was Bill O’Brien, and he managed to get himself canned and crippled the Texans franchise in the process.

Grier seems like he wants to collaborate with the head coaches. At least that’s what he says publicly. He gets their input, they communicate, he isn’t just unilaterally making trades, signings and draft picks. Flores and Grier would both say how they’re in near constant communication and lock step. However at some point that relationship and communication was fractured. It may very well start and end with Deshaun Watson. We don’t know, but it certainly feels that way.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Just gotta say, this thread has given me a ton more information on the Dolphins. Well done to the 'phins fans here. While I think the perspective can be slightly skewed by your fandom, thats true for every fan group (sup BBTL). And, frankly, you've all been a lot more measured this season than I expected. I wonder if that has to do with heightened expectations. Sometimes its more stressful/relief than it is enjoyable/exciting, and that can give a more measured perspective.

Either way, I think you've all done great in here this season. Thanks for all the info in here!
 

RIrooter09

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I'm mystified by Stephen Ross's loyalty to Grier. The guy has been with the organization for the worst 20 year stretch in their history and he continues to get a pass while others get canned.
 

sodenj5

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View: https://twitter.com/tompelissero/status/1480945537050464257?s=21


Rym was on this one. I was high on Mike McDaniel for OC when they were looking to replace Gailey last year. He got elevated to OC in SF and Shanahan thinks very highly of him.

Tua would certainly fit in a Shanny offense, however Miami’s O Line and RBs would need a significant overhaul as they have most big maulers across the board. The 49ers have a diverse running attack and it isn’t all zone, but zone is still the heart of what they do.
 
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luckiestman

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I'm mystified by Stephen Ross's loyalty to Grier. The guy has been with the organization for the worst 20 year stretch in their history and he continues to get a pass while others get canned.

Never forget what the great Bill Walsh wrote on this topic


48234
 

scott bankheadcase

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Rym was on this one. I was high on Mike McDaniel before they hired Flores when he was still the RB coach. He got elevated to OC and Shanahan thinks very highly of him.

Tua would certainly fit in a Shanny offense, however Miami’s O Line and RBs would need a significant overhaul as they have most big maulers across the board. The 49ers have a diverse running attack and it isn’t all zone, but zone is still the heart of what they do.
I would be so interested in seeing McDaniel as a head coach. I happen to love the guy, but he's an incredibly nerdy and sarcastic Xennial (honestly just like me, which is why I love him). His media interviews would be interesting.

He actually gives well thought out answers, but in a way that I don't think the general media is used to. Check out a sample:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DnaedDPxuM


Really smart guy designing an offense though.
 

scott bankheadcase

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I would be so interested in seeing McDaniel as a head coach. I happen to love the guy, but he's an incredibly nerdy and sarcastic Xennial (honestly just like me, which is why I love him). His media interviews would be interesting.

He actually gives well thought out answers, but in a way that I don't think the general media is used to. Check out a sample:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DnaedDPxuM


Really smart guy designing an offense though.
When the Jets were looking at Saleh, I knew he was a cerebral guy that the media would respond well to. He totally had a head coach vibe about him.

This would be different.
 

sodenj5

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It's shocking to me. Miami's last playoff win came with Dan Marino at QB. They've done little to nothing right since then.
Should tell you how bad Ross thought things had gotten. He’s notorious for hanging on to coaches and GMs for too long and not making changes soon enough. Being too loyal.

The fact that he ripped the band-aid off on Flores after winning 8/9 to close the season must show that he saw things deteriorating beyond repair. I’m not saying he picked the right guy to stay, but he came out yesterday and cited the roster turnaround under Grier specifically, which means he must think Grier is holding up his end of the bargain.

He was likely underwhelmed by the offense and the growth of Tua, the lack of development of the lineman, and being one of the worst rushing attacks in the league again and wanted Flores to make changes on the offense.
 

Philip Jeff Frye

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I would be so interested in seeing McDaniel as a head coach. I happen to love the guy, but he's an incredibly nerdy and sarcastic Xennial (honestly just like me, which is why I love him). His media interviews would be interesting.

He actually gives well thought out answers, but in a way that I don't think the general media is used to. Check out a sample:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DnaedDPxuM


Really smart guy designing an offense though.
That guy was on the Yale football team? He'd be the first Yale head coach since Dick Jauron. Jauron was an all-time great player in Yale football history. Mike McDaniel, not so much. I'm not sure he ever caught a pass (he was a wide receiver, apparently), not that this means anything. Jauron certainly was not very successful as a head coach.
 
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sodenj5

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I would be so interested in seeing McDaniel as a head coach. I happen to love the guy, but he's an incredibly nerdy and sarcastic Xennial (honestly just like me, which is why I love him). His media interviews would be interesting.

He actually gives well thought out answers, but in a way that I don't think the general media is used to. Check out a sample:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DnaedDPxuM


Really smart guy designing an offense though.
Definitely an insightful interview. Seems like a bright guy. I liked his answer on Lance’s eye discipline and how they evaluate RBs without tackling.

The last hiring cycle people spoke very highly of his ability to essentially design the rushing attack and how Shanahan valued him. When you’re near a great playcaller or OC, you’re always worried that you’re getting Adam Gase and not Sean McVay. You’re getting a guy that was near excellence, but not excellent themselves.

McDaniel might be a good offensive mind of his own.
 

scott bankheadcase

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Definitely an insightful interview. Seems like a bright guy. I liked his answer on Lance’s eye discipline and how they evaluate RBs without tackling.

The last hiring cycle people spoke very highly of his ability to essentially design the rushing attack and how Shanahan valued him. When you’re near a great playcaller or OC, you’re always worried that you’re getting Adam Gase and not Sean McVay. You’re getting a guy that was near excellence, but not excellent themselves.

McDaniel might be a good offensive mind of his own.
By the way his joke in the beginning was about the Niners' long snapper, and how he wouldn't answer any questions about it. So, I guess he's the opposite of BB.

He will be a head coach someday though. His ability to design runs that all come out of different formations is impressive. The niners passing game took a bit of a hit with LaFleur going with Saleh last year, losing McD would be tough on the run game.

Also, this is probably not for the Dolphins who should go offensive, but DeMeco Ryans will absolutely be a head coach in this league within 3 years. He's super impressive as the niners DC.
 

rymflaherty

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The McDaniel news is encouraging.

As I said, he was most intriguing to me…he checked off a lot of boxes of what I would be looking for. I obviously have no idea if that translates to head coach material, or if it’s a job he’s prepared for…but it’s good to know that Grier is going to take the time to figure that out.
 

sodenj5

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View: https://twitter.com/tompelissero/status/1480987208446271496?s=21


Quinn feels too similar to Flores for my liking. But I saw this tweet and reconsidered.

View: https://twitter.com/danieloyefusi/status/1480996269329952768?s=21


Obviously almost all of those guys are directly tied to Kyle Shanahan, but Quinn at the very least put together a very competent offensive coaching staff for that SB run and obviously struggled once Kyle left. He has Dallas’s D playing outstanding this year and Micah Parsons is a legit DPOY candidate under his tutelage.

Would still place him at the bottom of the list of Daboll and McDaniel so far.
 

tims4wins

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Quinn feels too similar to Flores for my liking. But I saw this tweet and reconsidered.

View: https://twitter.com/danieloyefusi/status/1480996269329952768?s=21


Obviously almost all of those guys are directly tied to Kyle Shanahan, but Quinn at the very least put together a very competent offensive coaching staff for that SB run and obviously struggled once Kyle left. He has Dallas’s D playing outstanding this year and Micah Parsons is a legit DPOY candidate under his tutelage.

Would still place him at the bottom of the list of Daboll and McDaniel so far.
Go back and watch the mic'd up clips from SB51 and you'll quickly sour on Dan Quinn.