Carry on my Hayward Son: Gordon to Charlotte for 4 years, $120M

Euclis20

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I'm not sure I would call that ridiulous court vision. The guy is running on the wing in front of him with a wide open lane. It's the behind the back pass that is making everyone go ga ga.
We're talking about a guy whose career prospects are likely somewhere between Liangelo Ball and Lonzo Ball. People invested in seeing him succeed will take what they can get.
 

nighthob

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I'm not sure I would call that ridiulous court vision. The guy is running on the wing in front of him with a wide open lane. It's the behind the back pass that is making everyone go ga ga.
In fairness it's a behind-the-back no-look pass that leads the guy in front of him perfectly. Not a lot of guys can do that. Those passes tend to result in turnovers.
 

djbayko

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In fairness it's a behind-the-back no-look pass that leads the guy in front of him perfectly. Not a lot of guys can do that. Those passes tend to result in turnovers.
The pass was pretty. I questioned it being evidence that his court vision was "ridiculous".
 

nighthob

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I mean it sort of is, that particular pass requires a lot of on the fly calculations that almost everyone flubs. I'm pretty much the opposite of a LaMelo fan, but props where they're due, he's a much better passer than I thought he'd be.
 

Euclis20

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Yeah, I’m not a LaMelo fan, but his ceiling is a whole lot higher than Lonzo’s.
It's fair to say his ceiling is a lot higher than Lonzo's current talent level (which is "intriguing but deeply flawed rotation player on a sub-.500 team"), but better than Lonzo's ceiling? Maybe now, but certainly not when Lonzo was drafted. The Ringer has Ball's top comparables as "Jason Williams, Lonzo Ball and Shaun Livingston." Back in 2017, they listed Lonzo's best case scenarios (yes, very different meaning) as "Penny Hardaway, Jason Kidd and Shaun Livingston with a jump shot." I'm higher on Lonzo than most (I think), but I'd be astonished if LaMelo did much better.
 

PedroKsBambino

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It's fair to say his ceiling is a lot higher than Lonzo's current talent level (which is "intriguing but deeply flawed rotation player on a sub-.500 team"), but better than Lonzo's ceiling? Maybe now, but certainly not when Lonzo was drafted. The Ringer has Ball's top comparables as "Jason Williams, Lonzo Ball and Shaun Livingston." Back in 2017, they listed Lonzo's best case scenarios (yes, very different meaning) as "Penny Hardaway, Jason Kidd and Shaun Livingston with a jump shot." I'm higher on Lonzo than most (I think), but I'd be astonished if LaMelo did much better.
I just don’t think those Lonzo comps were ever legit. He has zero Pennny to him; the Kidd comp is closer in style and skills but if you take away Kidds best passing and defense traits you have Lonzo....and that’s much more Ricky Rubio than anyone else.

LaMelo may not get there but he’s much more similar to Penny offensively than Lonzo ever was .
 

TripleOT

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If LaMelo spends his whole career ripping down rebounds, running the floor, and finding teammates, he will be better than the average Hornets' first round pick. Melo sees the floor like a young Jason Kidd, but unfortunately he shoots like one. Improve the long range shooting (very possible), get bigger and stronger (probable), and Melo could be a multi all star. If he never gets the shooting down, he could be a better passing Ben Simmons. (I'm assuming he will become a decent defender as he gets stronger, with his long arms and good instincts)
 

djbayko

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I mean it sort of is, that particular pass requires a lot of on the fly calculations that almost everyone flubs. I'm pretty much the opposite of a LaMelo fan, but props where they're due, he's a much better passer than I thought he'd be.
Maybe we have a different definition of "court vision". To me, you're still describing the execution of the pass itself here.
 

the moops

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Maybe we have a different definition of "court vision". To me, you're still describing the execution of the pass itself here.
His court vision is his biggest strength and the reason he was drafted so high. If this was his only example of making a slick behind the back pass to a guy running on a fast break, then yes, it wouldn't really tell us anything about his vision. But there is plenty of tape and plenty of words written about how good his vision is
 

nighthob

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Maybe we have a different definition of "court vision". To me, you're still describing the execution of the pass itself here.
Yeah, I’m not sure what definition you’re using, mine is “he can get passes to teammates in position to score”. On that play he did that with a really high degree of difficulty. You seriously need to be seeing things on the periphery that most guys can’t see when they’re looking straight at a play to make a pass like that.
 

djbayko

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Yeah, I’m not sure what definition you’re using, mine is “he can get passes to teammates in position to score”. On that play he did that with a really high degree of difficulty. You seriously need to be seeing things on the periphery that most guys can’t see when they’re looking straight at a play to make a pass like that.
I've always considered court vision to be the ability to see plays developing and knowing where players are / going to be on the court - the act of getting the ball there not being part of said "vision". So that does explain why we have a different viewpoint on that statement. Seeing his player out ahead of him drive the open lane on the wing isn't too spectacular in and of itself. We've now spent way too much time on a dumb tweet :)
 

nighthob

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i mean he was literally watching the play develop without looking directly at it and being able to execute the necessary pass. I'm not sure what else your mythical court vision is doing.
 

Devizier

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Are we sure Gordon hasn’t taken up the macrobiotic diet?

 

TripleOT

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Hayward puts up 28, Rozier 42, with ten three pointers, and the Hornets lose in Cleveland. I don’t think they ran any alley opp plays to Hayward.

Ex-Celtics, 70 points on 41 shots. The rest of the Hornets 44 points on 49 shots. Their main man needs to get these other guys moving. GH did have seven assists, but this team is long way away from being good
 

lovegtm

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There's a version of Rozier, on a winning team, who plays ferocious perimeter D and hits 3s. I'm optimistic we might see that guy when he moves somewhere after this contract. I've always liked him, but obviously he was a big negative by the end of his Boston time.
 

TripleOT

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The non-ex Celtics on the Hornets go 2-20 from three to waste the efforts from Rozier and GH, who were 14-24 from long distance.

Rozier had a solid first season in Charlotte, 18/4/4 with 40% shooting from three. I won’t be surprised if he builds off that success this season, assuming Hayward can stay on the floor to stabilize that young team
 

BigSoxFan

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I'm bumping this because the dude is straight up ballin' right now:

22.5/5.2/4.0 while shooting 50/40/93

Rozier is playing very well too. Boston has been very good to Charlotte.
 

radsoxfan

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Glad to see him play well, he went through such a bizarre 3 years here.

Can't totally blame him for taking more money and a bigger role, even if his chances of winning went down significantly.

Celtics would be so so so much better right now with Hayward playing 35 minutes a game. Oh well.
 

NomarsFool

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Can't totally blame him for taking more money and a bigger role, even if his chances of winning went down significantly.
To me, going to a losing organization because you want more touches on the ball is the epitome of stupidity. But, if all he wants in life is to enjoy money and individual success - that's his choice, I guess.
 

Cellar-Door

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To me, going to a losing organization because you want more touches on the ball is the epitome of stupidity. But, if all he wants in life is to enjoy money and individual success - that's his choice, I guess.
Meh, the RINGZZZZ narrative is massively overplayed in the NBA. Plenty of guys chase rings their whole career and never get one.

Hayward is a top tier player still in his prime, and the Celtics even with him aren't a sure bet to be a title team. There is something to be said for not wasting your talents in a role on a top 4 seed when you could use those talents to make a team a 7 seed with room to grow.
 

BigSoxFan

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Meh, the RINGZZZZ narrative is massively overplayed in the NBA. Plenty of guys chase rings their whole career and never get one.

Hayward is a top tier player still in his prime, and the Celtics even with him aren't a sure bet to be a title team. There is something to be said for not wasting your talents in a role on a top 4 seed when you could use those talents to make a team a 7 seed with room to grow.
Agreed. He was looking at being a 3rd or 4th banana for the rest of his prime. I'll never blame an athlete for wanting to prove to others that they can be more than that.
 

radsoxfan

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To me, going to a losing organization because you want more touches on the ball is the epitome of stupidity. But, if all he wants in life is to enjoy money and individual success - that's his choice, I guess.
I think it depends on the situation honestly. Sometimes I agree with you, though I have sympathy in Hayward's case. In the 3 years since signing he had a career threatening injury and the Celtics developed 2 All-Star (or better) much younger wings making him into a 3rd option, at best.

He is still basically in the prime of his career, hasn't been able to show he is still the player he was on Utah, and likely would never really get than chance on the Celtics right now.

It would have taken a unique player at his age to say he is OK taking that big of a backseat for the rest of his prime. He can be a ring chaser in a few years if he still wants to.
 

HomeRunBaker

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To me, going to a losing organization because you want more touches on the ball is the epitome of stupidity. But, if all he wants in life is to enjoy money and individual success - that's his choice, I guess.
Couple things......

1. I am fairly certain Charlotte is going to be an EC playoff team during the length of Hayward’s contract. It isn’t like Beal in DC in any way. A player of his cabilber is always going to feel like they are the best of one of the two best players on his team so the “settling for 3rd/4th banana” wouldn’t seem to apply to someone like Hayward in his prime.

2. The NBA is a business and if anyone knows how quickly it can all end it is Gordo. Assuming Ainge was not offering an extension it really was a no-brainer for Hayward to take the security of a guaranteed $120m.

3. He and his wife are from Indiana and in the process of raising a young family. The suburbs of Charlotte would be much more suitable to their Midwestern roots (especially his wives I’m guessing) than being in Boston. Shit, drive 30 min south and you feel like you’re in Indiana.
 

Kliq

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It was also pretty mind-blowing at the time when we found out that Hayward got that kind of a big money, long-term deal with Charlotte. The conventional thinking was that Hayward was damaged goods and no team would take a chance on giving him that kind of deal, and Charlotte was mocked for doing it; and that it was likely he wouldn't opt-out of his Boston contract because there was no way he would get a longer-term deal at $30 million~ per year.

Basketball is a business, and while Hayward would have made life-changing money either way, you simply don't turn down the chance to make $100 million+, especially with his injury history and knowing you only have a few years left to make that kind of money. Hayward might not have a ring, but he'll go to bed every night that his kids, grandkids, great-grandkids, etc. will live the rest of their lives comfortably.
 

scottyno

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Basketball is a business, and while Hayward would have made life-changing money either way, you simply don't turn down the chance to make $100 million+, especially with his injury history and knowing you only have a few years left to make that kind of money. Hayward might not have a ring, but he'll go to bed every night that his kids, grandkids, great-grandkids, etc. will live the rest of their lives comfortably.
Celtics offered him 100m if reports are to be believed, there was no practical difference in how his family and his future family could live. He chose to be the guy for a team no one cares about over being a smaller piece of a team playing relevant basketball every night.
 

DJnVa

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Celtics offered him 100m if reports are to be believed, there was no practical difference in how his family and his future family could live. He chose to be the guy for a team no one cares about over being a smaller piece of a team playing relevant basketball every night.
We ain't playing much at all right now!
 

radsoxfan

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20 million bucks probably will make a difference to someone eventually in his family or future family....

I'm sure he would have preferred a more guaranteed contender, but his options were limited. Charlotte isn't that bad so it worked out pretty well in the end. Got lucky Ball looks like a good pick.

Willingly becoming a super 6th man-type, likely never making another All-Star Game, never really knowing how good he could get post-injury.... I don't blame him at all.
 

Kliq

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Celtics offered him 100m if reports are to be believed, there was no practical difference in how his family and his future family could live. He chose to be the guy for a team no one cares about over being a smaller piece of a team playing relevant basketball every night.
There is some incredible Boston arrogance in this post. Well done.