Carry on my Hayward Son: Gordon to Charlotte for 4 years, $120M

mcpickl

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We still don't know what Teague signed for, right?

What I've seen most commonly is that this season, the Celtics cannot take more than $22 million in additional salary because of the apron limit. So, they'd have to send out some player(s) if they were going to get someone making $28.5 million (which isn't too much of an obstacle as you'd think anyone in that class of player wouldn't ordinarily just be had for draft picks).
Correct.

We don't know for sure what Teague signed for yet, either the BAE or the minimum.

If he's at the BAE, the Celtics could add about 21M from the TPE without going over apron, assuming that player replaces Javonte.

If he's at the minimum, it's around 23M
 

Saints Rest

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We still don't know what Teague signed for, right?

What I've seen most commonly is that this season, the Celtics cannot take more than $22 million in additional salary because of the apron limit. So, they'd have to send out some player(s) if they were going to get someone making $28.5 million (which isn't too much of an obstacle as you'd think anyone in that class of player wouldn't ordinarily just be had for draft picks).
I think the key will be staying under the tax this year, so maybe they use up to about 2/3 of this TPE. Then use the rest next year.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I think the key will be staying under the tax this year, so maybe they use up to about 2/3 of this TPE. Then use the rest next year.
That's my guess at how they are thinking about the tax, hence my earlier comments. We don't have total clarity on the tax stuff in the revised CBA, I don't think.
 

luckiestman

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Janos is a legend in "Celtics Twitter". Apparently it's not really Danny because there are message board references going back almost a decade I think, but that's the most popular rumor. Whoever they are, I find them hilarious and they generally tweet during and after big games or events. Their favorite things in the world, other than the Celtics, are whiskey, soup, and Rondo.
Janos throwing his soup away because he is too sick to eat after losses is my favorite bit.
 

Devizier

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Looking at the upcoming FA class and there's pretty much no one the Celtics would a priori want to trade for, IMHO.

I think Danny holds it as an insurance policy for injury.
 

lexrageorge

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Correct.

We don't know for sure what Teague signed for yet, either the BAE or the minimum.

If he's at the BAE, the Celtics could add about 21M from the TPE without going over apron, assuming that player replaces Javonte.

If he's at the minimum, it's around 23M
Note also that the apron is a hard cap for the Celtics, as they used the non-taxpayer MLE to sign Tristan Thompson.

The other threshold is the tax threshold, which is about $6M less than the apron. My guess is that, barring an exceptional opportunity to pick up a game-changing talent, the Celtics will want to stay under the tax threshold this season.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Looking at the upcoming FA class and there's pretty much no one the Celtics would a priori want to trade for, IMHO.

I think Danny holds it as an insurance policy for injury.
The most interesting guy to me is Jrue Holiday, who has a player option. I expect Giannis to resign, this year to go fine, and him to opt in to that option. But he'd be a great fit if Giannis left---or if he hates it there.

Otherwise, I think mid-tier guys (10-15 mil a year) is the likely play for Celts. In an ideal world, you'd either pick someone like that up as a rental this year for a playoff run and then someone different S&T long-term beyond that. But you do have to attach assets each time and you hard-cap yourself next year that way so it's a complicated path

OK, my first choice is trying to get Aaron Gordon in-season...which depends on Orlando not looking great (seems like a reasonable bet). It'd certainly cost a first and perhaps more, but he's an interesting fit and salary also works.
 
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DJnVa

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Janos is a legend in "Celtics Twitter". Apparently it's not really Danny because there are message board references going back almost a decade I think, but that's the most popular rumor. Whoever they are, I find them hilarious and they generally tweet during and after big games or events. Their favorite things in the world, other than the Celtics, are whiskey, soup, and Rondo.
I will use "very sad hornet" in reference to Hayward all season.
 

oumbi

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Yes and no, you can’t bundle Romeo with the TPE and combine the salaries. However, if they trade for a player making $28 million that team gains a TPE that Langford can be traded into.
Please help me with this. Let's say the Celtics want pg help for a playoff push and wish to pick up Conley at $34.5 million. Can the Celtics combine the TPE maybe with Teague or Pritchard or whomever make up the difference? Thanks.
 

Cellar-Door

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Please help me with this. Let's say the Celtics want pg help for a playoff push and wish to pick up Conley at $34.5 million. Can the Celtics combine the TPE maybe with Teague or Pritchard or whomever make up the difference? Thanks.
no. There is no way to use the TPE to get a player who costs more than the TPE. The player's entire salary must fit into the TPE.
 

Saints Rest

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The most interesting guy to me is Jrue Holiday, who has a player option. I expect Giannis to resign, this year to go fine, and him to opt in to that option. But he'd be a great fit if Giannis left---or if he hates it there.

Otherwise, I think mid-tier guys (10-15 mil a year) is the likely play for Celts. In an ideal world, you'd either pick someone like that up as a rental this year for a playoff run and then someone different S&T long-term beyond that. But you do have to attach assets each time and you hard-cap yourself next year that way so it's a complicated path

OK, my first choice is trying to get Aaron Gordon in-season...which depends on Orlando not looking great (seems like a reasonable bet). It'd certainly cost a first and perhaps more, but he's an interesting fit and salary also works.
I thought the rules of the TPE are such that there are no assets attached outbound, and just a player incoming whose salary must fit within a single TPE. So wouldn’t the ideal fit be a team who is out of the playoff hunt and trying to shed salary, whether to open room for a future signing or to get under the tax themselves? Seems like that will narrow the list significantly.
 

lexrageorge

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I thought the rules of the TPE are such that there are no assets attached outbound, and just a player incoming whose salary must fit within a single TPE. So wouldn’t the ideal fit be a team who is out of the playoff hunt and trying to shed salary, whether to open room for a future signing or to get under the tax themselves? Seems like that will narrow the list significantly.
A team can trade players/picks in order to pick up a player to fill the TPE. It may need to be structured as a separate trade transaction, depending upon the salaries. The issue is that the outgoing players salaries cannot be aggregated with the TPE.

Celtics cannot trade Langford and combine his $3.6M salary with the $28M TPE and pick up a player making $31M. Celtics could, however, trade Langford for a player making, say, $25M. It would likely be done as 2 separate trades, with the Celtics getting a small TPE for moving Langford out. The Celtics could send out assets such as Langford to avoid going over either the apron or luxury tax threshold.

The TPE may or may not be useful, but it's good to have the option just in case.
 

Jimbodandy

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Looking at the upcoming FA class and there's pretty much no one the Celtics would a priori want to trade for, IMHO.

I think Danny holds it as an insurance policy for injury.
Thanks for dropping in an "a priori" reference. I just had a flashback to trying to digest Kant's Critique Of Pure Reason with a gallon of coffee as a lubricant.
 

NomarsFool

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So, absolutely no way of getting Bradley Beal, unfortunately.

If Oladipo returns to form, he'd be a nice upgrade over Kemba - provided they could find a home for him.
 

lexrageorge

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So, absolutely no way of getting Bradley Beal, unfortunately.

If Oladipo returns to form, he'd be a nice upgrade over Kemba - provided they could find a home for him.
And there is zero chance that the Pacers GM will trade with Ainge. It's clear that the two are just not compatible as trading partners; it happens from time to time when you're talking about 30 GMs.
 

Jimbodandy

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And there is zero chance that the Pacers GM will trade with Ainge. It's clear that the two are just not compatible as trading partners; it happens from time to time when you're talking about 30 GMs.
Yeah I can't imagine the situation where they would be so desperate to deal that they would talk ever again. Supposedly they hated each other before this debacle. Pritchard probably blocked Ainge's cell.
 
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lovegtm

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The more I think about it, winning the FA sweepstakes for a guy, then not having to overpay for his 30-34 years and getting a massive trade exception in exchange for 2 (very bad) 2nds is pretty much an optimal outcome in the FA game. This is way different than Kyrie leaving.

For comparison, in a mostly similar situation, GSW had to pay a very lightly protected 1st (!) to generate a smaller TPE for Iguodala.
 

NomarsFool

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A lot depends on if they ever get anything with that TPE. If it is unused, or used on bench scraps - it's a fairly mediocre outcome.
 

lovegtm

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A lot depends on if they ever get anything with that TPE. If it is unused, or used on bench scraps - it's a fairly mediocre outcome.
This is incredibly results-oriented thinking.

The only outcome better than this, imo, would have been Hayward re-signing for 4/100 and the Knicks doing a first for Kemba.
 

lexrageorge

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A lot depends on if they ever get anything with that TPE. If it is unused, or used on bench scraps - it's a fairly mediocre outcome.
One benefit is that the Celtics will be free of a pandemic-induced luxury tax line crunch, which could matter down the line. It's not ideal; losing Hayward can hurt them. But having the TPE now is better than nothing.
 

lovegtm

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I think people aren’t properly valuing the TPE, since it’s so much bigger than is usually the case. It’s a much more flexible tool than normal.

Also, the seconds given up were the Celtics own, while Tatum is under contract. Those are nearly worthless.
 

Jimbodandy

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This is incredibly results-oriented thinking.

The only outcome better than this, imo, would have been Hayward re-signing for 4/100 and the Knicks doing a first for Kemba.
Yep. The Celtics got the #2 overall pick for Gerald Henderson. Didn't turn out great in the end, but it was a great deal at the time.
 

Euclis20

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"He's a bona fide starter in this league," Kupchak said. "
When pressed on the idea that the Hornets need Hayward to be more than just a "starter" after that kind of investment, Kupchak said he believes Hayward can get back to his All-Star form.

"I still think he can make an All-Star team," Kupchak said. "He's 30 years old, and I believe it might not be a fair comparison but I think Jimmy Butler was 31 when Miami brought him on board and I think Jimmy had a pretty good year. I think the best years for an NBA player, when their mind catches up to their body, is between the ages of 28 and 32. So I think he still has at least two solid, maybe three really solid years where he can play at a high level. Now, whether he makes the All-Star team or not, I don't know. Do we need him to average 25 or 27 points for this team? No, we do not need that. We need the stability in the locker room. We need what he brings to us at that position. Not only scoring but facilitating an offense. And what does that translate into? I don't know, 17 points, 19 points, six rebounds? I don't know. But to add a player like that to this young group we just felt that was the move in the right direction."
I'll be rooting for the guy, but after the basketball world spent the last week killing the Hornets for overpaying, these comments from the Kupchak don't make them look any better. Any time you can sign a guy in his 30s who missed over 110 games over the last 3 years to a 9 figure deal, you gotta do it. Bona fide starters don't come cheap.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I'll be rooting for the guy, but after the basketball world spent the last week killing the Hornets for overpaying, these comments from the Kupchak don't make them look any better. Any time you can sign a guy in his 30s who missed over 110 games over the last 3 years to a 9 figure deal, you gotta do it. Bona fide starters don't come cheap.
To be fay-uh, no player worth anything will sign in CLT for the same amount they could get for a contender unless they have other drivers besides maximizing revenue. At some point, Kupchak has to pay up for talent and Hayward kind of fell into his lap. They had to pull the trigger on this one imo.
 

DJnVa

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Let's overanalyze:

But I had a great time there and still have great relationships with the people there and some of the players there.
Some?
 

lovegtm

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Let's overanalyze:



Some?
Gordon needs to stfu to be honest. The team did everything it could to work him in, and paid him ~100M for like 30 games of good play.

Now he’s whining because Tatum got good.

Enjoy the money and fighting for the 8th seed; don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

(See my earlier comments re Horford and my pettiness.)
 

NomarsFool

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Hayward had three options:

A) Lifetime financial security and be a part of an NBA title contender for the next 4 seasons, but not be the "The Man"
B) Lifetime financial security, be close to family, and be a part of an NBA playoff contender
C) Lifetime financial security, an extra $20 million, be "The Man", and be on a perennial garbage team where the fans (those that exist) will be all over him as the team continues to suck

I think he chose poorly and will regret his decision.

The one wild card here is that maybe Charlotte was already telling him they'd be willing to ship him out somewhere in a year.
 

BigSoxFan

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Hayward had three options:

A) Lifetime financial security and be a part of an NBA title contender for the next 4 seasons, but not be the "The Man"
B) Lifetime financial security, be close to family, and be a part of an NBA playoff contender
C) Lifetime financial security, an extra $20 million, be "The Man", and be on a perennial garbage team where the fans (those that exist) will be all over him as the team continues to suck

I think he chose poorly and will regret his decision.

The one wild card here is that maybe Charlotte was already telling him they'd be willing to ship him out somewhere in a year.
Can we give them Kemba?

Kidding...kind of
 

Jimbodandy

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Gordon needs to stfu to be honest. The team did everything it could to work him in, and paid him ~100M for like 30 games of good play.

Now he’s whining because Tatum got good.

Enjoy the money and fighting for the 8th seed; don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

(See my earlier comments re Horford and my pettiness.)
You're right. We don't know what happens behind closed doors, but shutting the fuck up seems appropriate here.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Gordon needs to stfu to be honest. The team did everything it could to work him in, and paid him ~100M for like 30 games of good play.

Now he’s whining because Tatum got good.

Enjoy the money and fighting for the 8th seed; don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

(See my earlier comments re Horford and my pettiness.)
Mostly true but it only takes one player to change things. Maybe Ball is way better than anyone expects or Charlotte drafts a star with a top 3 pick in 2021. The 4 year contracts in NBA make for very quick turn around too so the bad contracts in the NBA aren't nearly as crippling. If the Hornets want to move on from Hayward 2 years from now and he doesn't have a huge fork in him, the Hornets should be able to move him.

I mean, we have people on here who want to trade for Otto Porters contract. Granted that only has 1 year left.
 

lexrageorge

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Gordon needs to stfu to be honest. The team did everything it could to work him in, and paid him ~100M for like 30 games of good play.

Now he’s whining because Tatum got good.

Enjoy the money and fighting for the 8th seed; don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

(See my earlier comments re Horford and my pettiness.)
I don't see Gordon as whining. Instead, I just see him explaining his reasons in response to a direct question asked by reporters. Fans complain when athletes respond with "no comment", or give Belichickian answers. And then when they provide some honest insight, fans tell them to shut up.

Classic example of why we simply cannot have nice things here.
 

Jimbodandy

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I don't see Gordon as whining. Instead, I just see him explaining his reasons in response to a direct question asked by reporters. Fans complain when athletes respond with "no comment", or give Belichickian answers. And then when they provide some honest insight, fans tell them to shut up.

Classic example of why we simply cannot have nice things here.
Fans complain when players issue Belichickian platitudes? I think that you mean "media" there.
 

lovegtm

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My hot takes aside, it’s a bit weird to see Hayward have so little confidence in himself. The trend for NBA stars in recent years has been to team up with other guys even at the expense of being the man, and Hayward probably would be the Celtics’ 2nd or 3rd best player this year.

Most of the time when he had low usage in Boston, it was a result of his being injured or not good enough. When he was good, he got the ball, and Kemba out would only increase that.
 

NomarsFool

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Were there times when the Celtics went iso too much? I think many people on this board have complained about that. But, it's also very odd for him to complain about usage because many of us felt like Hayward was often a bit too shy with taking his own shot - driving and kicking instead of taking a shot. On the other hand, there were many times when he would drive and get swallowed up - so could easily be that kicking was the proper choice (I'm talking about the periods when he was rehabbing - which was a lot of his career in Boston).

I'm just overall not very sympathetic to players complaining about not getting the ball enough. I'd be happy to stand in the corner for a team that wins the NBA title.
 

Jimbodandy

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Guys often go to unnecessary lengths to explain decisions like this. I don't get it.

Charlotte offered more money. Boston will forever be associated in his memory with walking with a limp perhaps, so a change of scenery would be nice. Or the city vibe here just didn't do it for him. Fine. Good luck, no probs, whatever. Given the limited contributions that he made here, through no fault of his own imo (just shit injury luck), it's like we hardly knew him. No sonnet required.
 

Cellar-Door

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Hayward had three options:

A) Lifetime financial security and be a part of an NBA title contender for the next 4 seasons, but not be the "The Man"
B) Lifetime financial security, be close to family, and be a part of an NBA playoff contender
C) Lifetime financial security, an extra $20 million, be "The Man", and be on a perennial garbage team where the fans (those that exist) will be all over him as the team continues to suck

I think he chose poorly and will regret his decision.

The one wild card here is that maybe Charlotte was already telling him they'd be willing to ship him out somewhere in a year.
Got a lot nicer weather out of it too, don't sleep on nice weather when you have to live in-market for the winter
 

DGreenwood

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Gordon would drive and kick to create an easier shot for someone else, instead of taking a more difficult but makeable shot himself, because that's how he thinks the game should be played. He didn't feel like his teammates were doing that enough.

Here's a Hayward quote from an article on The Athletic yesterday:
“I think sometimes we have so many guys who are good in isolation, who can hit those shots, but a lot of the time they are difficult and if you’re missing them, like you said, we’re standing around,” Hayward said in what would be his last in-person meeting with the Boston media. “I think we’re just at our best when we’re moving the ball, we’re getting easier shots. Everyone is kinda getting a touch of it, too.”

Edit for context: The article was yesterday but that quote was from back in March.
 
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