Carry on my Hayward Son: Gordon to Charlotte for 4 years, $120M

scottyno

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There is some incredible Boston arrogance in this post. Well done.
You're right how arrogant to assume that playing for a big market team that has been in 3 of the last 4 conference finals and playing for a small market team that has never won a playoff series in its history aren't the same in terms of basketball relevance.
 

lexrageorge

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If Hayward is happier when he goes home every night because his wife and family prefer Charlotte to the northeast, and he gets $20M extra to boot, I'm not sure I would call him "stupid" for taking that deal.

If Charlotte is able to win a playoff series or two while he's the big man on the team, he'll have a nice local brand image to build off on as well.
 

Cellar-Door

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You're right how arrogant to assume that playing for a big market team that has been in 3 of the last 4 conference finals and playing for a small market team that has never won a playoff series in its history aren't the same in terms of basketball relevance.
Boston isn't that much bigger a market, and markets don't really matter in the NBA. OKC is a small market and it was one of the centers of the NBA world for years.

As to never won? Who cares? You don't get retroactive rings. If anything I respect a guy trying to win a team their first playoff series more than a guy who is happy to waste his talent on the bench of a borderline contender in the hope he gets a ring.

Charlotte is going to be a playoff team for the first time in a long time in part because of Hayward, and they have an interesting young team on the rise.
 

scottyno

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Boston isn't that much bigger a market, and markets don't really matter in the NBA. OKC is a small market and it was one of the centers of the NBA world for years.

As to never won? Who cares? You don't get retroactive rings. If anything I respect a guy trying to win a team their first playoff series more than a guy who is happy to waste his talent on the bench of a borderline contender in the hope he gets a ring.

Charlotte is going to be a playoff team for the first time in a long time in part because of Hayward, and they have an interesting young team on the rise.
Pretty sure Hayward as the at worst 3rd best player on this Celtics team wasn't going to be wasting much talent on the bench. A Celtics team which by the way even without him was basically picked as tied for 2nd in the east which I wouldn't exactly call a borderline contender, compared to a Charlotte team that was picked as one of the worst in the east.
 

radsoxfan

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I think there is a significant "uniqueness" to Hayward situation such that it really shouldn't be judged with in the same way other players are.

He signed with Boston after his age 26 season as an ascending first time All-Star looking to take his career to the next level. Instead, his next 3 seasons went:
1. Catastrophic potentially career ending injury game 1 of the season (age 27)
2. Struggled working his way back from that injury (age 28)
3. COVID pandemic and severe ankle sprain mid playoffs in the bubble (age 29)

During this time, his own team developed a 22 year old top 10 wing and a 24 year old top 25 wing. Hayward was heading towards being a top 15 player in the league, in the middle of his prime, and he had some of the worst injury/pandemic luck you can possibly imagine.

Now people think he should take less money for the second half of his prime and never really get the chance to establish himself as the player the thinks he is? All so he can be the jack-of-all-trades glue guy for the next Celtics championship team?

I doubt Charlotte was really his number 1 choice, but he didn't really have too many options in the end. I'm glad to see him playing well and think his decision was totally reasonable.

FWIW, in these super rich "the money is sort of irrelevant in the end" scenarios, I typically don't understand why athletes sign for top dollar to waste away on a terrible team. But Hayward's situation feels different to me. He only has a couple years left to see where he can get as a player.
 
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wade boggs chicken dinner

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Agreed. He was looking at being a 3rd or 4th banana for the rest of his prime. I'll never blame an athlete for wanting to prove to others that they can be more than that.
He wasn't going to be 4th banana the rest of his prime. He had 1 more year on his contract. For someone who said that winning a ring was paramount, to bail on what was the best team he's ever been on is IMO something.

I'm not begrudging GH the opportunity to make an additional $120MM - although I[m not sure how much material difference there is between $180MM - his earnings if he didn't opt-out and made $0 going forward - $250MM and $270MM. Of course I'll never find out. It just seems weird to me that he didn't take his shot at winning a ring and then go find a team where he could be the guy. I mean maybe IND would have figured out their salary cap by the end of this season.
 

HomeRunBaker

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There is some incredible Boston arrogance in this post. Well done.
Yeah, specifically there not being a material difference between living in Boston or Charlotte. I’ve lived in both and it’s hard to be more polar opposite than the two.
 

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He wasn't going to be 4th banana the rest of his prime. He had 1 more year on his contract. For someone who said that winning a ring was paramount, to bail on what was the best team he's ever been on is IMO something.

I'm not begrudging GH the opportunity to make an additional $120MM - although I[m not sure how much material difference there is between $180MM - his earnings if he didn't opt-out and made $0 going forward - $250MM and $270MM. Of course I'll never find out. It just seems weird to me that he didn't take his shot at winning a ring and then go find a team where he could be the guy. I mean maybe IND would have figured out their salary cap by the end of this season.
Huh? You don't think after all the injuries there were some damn good reasons to go for that contract now instead of playing out his old contract?
 
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nighthob

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Celtics offered him 100m if reports are to be believed, there was no practical difference in how his family and his future family could live. He chose to be the guy for a team no one cares about over being a smaller piece of a team playing relevant basketball every night.
He did try to go to Indiana, except that the Pacers’ GM reneged on him. So he chose to go to a team that needed him.
 

radsoxfan

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It's going to be weird when the Celtics face a 3 headed monster of Hayward, Rozier, and Lamelo Ball in the first round of the playoffs.
 

benhogan

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The Celtics were never paying him close to that money (and repeater tax) to be the 4th offensive option (and sometimes 5th depending on Smarts' mood).

That deal and role in Charlotte made sense for Gordon.

Made sense for Danny not to match. Use of the TPE will determine how clever Danny looks.

The outcome felt obvious this Summer and feels even more obvious with JayCrew going SuperNova
 

Cellar-Door

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My biggest takeaway from the whole Hayward thing BTW......

We may have missed out on Turner. I was of the opinion a big TPE was better than Turner and trusted the rumors that he didn't have value around the league..........

He has value now. He's been a legit DPOY candidate, if not the front-runner. It feels like he's having the breakout everyone thought he'd missed.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Huh? You don't think after all the injuries there were some damn good reasons to go for that contract now instead of playing out his old contract?
Obviously there were because he took the contract but he's unlikely to be as close to a NBA title in the next 4 years.

Would it have been strange if GH opted-in and said, "Coach and I have unfinished business and given all the Cs have done for me, I'd like to take one more try at winning a title"? Even if he was player 1D on the pecking order (maybe 2C is more apt)?
 

benhogan

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My biggest takeaway from the whole Hayward thing BTW......

We may have missed out on Turner. I was of the opinion a big TPE was better than Turner and trusted the rumors that he didn't have value around the league..........

He has value now. He's been a legit DPOY candidate, if not the front-runner. It feels like he's having the breakout everyone thought he'd missed.
SSS aside... blocking 4 shots/gm, probably gets him DPOY votes. But his offense isn't really keeping up with his defense.

and Indy still isn't making that double BIG lineup efficient (he's a negative +/- for the 3rd season running).

The Pacers would be much better with Hayward then Turner (that being said Turner > TT)
 

lovegtm

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SSS aside... blocking 4 shots/gm, probably gets him DPOY votes. But his offense isn't really keeping up with his defense.

and Indy still isn't making that double BIG lineup efficient (he's a negative +/- for the 3rd season running).

The Pacers would be much better with Hayward then Turner (that being said Turner > TT)
I'd still much rather turn that salary slot into a non-center.

It's also not that crazy to think TL could be as good as Turner defensively by the time he is getting paid the same amount or less. Maybe before. Worth the risk imo, given that you keep optionality to put something else in the salary slot.
 

TripleOT

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I’ll take TL at 1/9th the salary of Turner, and one season of an NBA rotation wing with the TPE over three years paying Turner $18m per.
 

Cellar-Door

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SSS aside... blocking 4 shots/gm, probably gets him DPOY votes. But his offense isn't really keeping up with his defense.

and Indy still isn't making that double BIG lineup efficient (he's a negative +/- for the 3rd season running).

The Pacers would be much better with Hayward then Turner (that being said Turner > TT)
He's doing a lot more than blocking shots, he's also leading the league in deflections. Many of the good writers have him as a top 2-3 DPOY candidate, he's having a ridiculous start in part because he's looking more mobile. On offense the big difference is a few missed 3s, otherwise he's the same player he was or a bit better on offense. Basically if he goes back to hitting 3s at his career rate he's Rudy Gobert with range.

Edit- We should still be fine if the MLE is used well, but Turner would have been a nice get and his performance now would have made him not just moveable, but an actual asset in a trade.
 

shoelace

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Obviously there were because he took the contract but he's unlikely to be as close to a NBA title in the next 4 years.

Would it have been strange if GH opted-in and said, "Coach and I have unfinished business and given all the Cs have done for me, I'd like to take one more try at winning a title"? Even if he was player 1D on the pecking order (maybe 2C is more apt)?
When he initially signed with Boston, he believed he had a chance to be a primary scoring option for a title team, and that obviously wouldn't have been the case if he opted in or re-signed here. So, I don't feel like there's a contradiction there. And obviously some players are more or less (Nerlens Noel) risk averse than others. We have to assume that for Gordon, winning a title as the 4th or 5th option didn't really mean as much to him as all that extra guaranteed money and the ability to play a more significant offensive role on a different team. He may feel like he can ring chase as a 6th man/bench type after he plays out this contract with Charlotte as well, which is possible if he has better luck with injuries this time around.
 

EvilEmpire

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Obviously there were because he took the contract but he's unlikely to be as close to a NBA title in the next 4 years.

Would it have been strange if GH opted-in and said, "Coach and I have unfinished business and given all the Cs have done for me, I'd like to take one more try at winning a title"? Even if he was player 1D on the pecking order (maybe 2C is more apt)?
Yeah, I think it would have been strange. Somewhat risky for him too.

It always surprises me when fans think players should be more loyal to teams than teams typically are to players.

Heyward didn't owe the Celtics anything.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Yeah, I think it would have been strange. Somewhat risky for him too.

It always surprises me when fans think players should be more loyal to teams than teams typically are to players.

Heyward didn't owe the Celtics anything.
I'm not saying that GH owed the Cs anything. GH had his best opportunity to win a ring in his career. I wouldn't have been surprised if he took it - not out of obligation to the franchise but for fulfilling personal goals. Because it would have been his best chance up to now (and for the next four years) to win a ring. But he chose not to.

I don't know how much risk one can be after making $180MM in one's career but YMMV.

Players do this all the time. Some college players stay in college an extra year because they want to win. Some players take discounts because they want to win. Others don't.

Don't get me wrong - not blaming him; wish him the best (except when he's playing BOS); and hope he's enjoying basketball. Yeah he can still ring chance after this contract ends.
 

Jimbodandy

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My biggest takeaway from the whole Hayward thing BTW......

We may have missed out on Turner. I was of the opinion a big TPE was better than Turner and trusted the rumors that he didn't have value around the league..........

He has value now. He's been a legit DPOY candidate, if not the front-runner. It feels like he's having the breakout everyone thought he'd missed.
Not everyone, kemosabe.
 

DJnVa

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Turner's "breakout" is interesting--blocks and steals are up. But he has the lowest usage rate of his career. His three point % is down. Rebounds are down, assists are static.

His % of points on fast breaks is WAY up--to 10% from 3%, and % of points off turnovers is also way up--nearly 19%, when last year it was about 13%. So, with a lot of fast break points, is he leaking out more--leading to some easy fast break points, thus a higher shooting percentage from 2P?

His % of points from mid-rage is WAY down. Down to 4.3%. Just 2 years ago it was over 20%. So he's moved his offensive game close to hoop and way from hoop. That's good.

We'll see if he can keep improving.
 

tbb345

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The Celtics were never paying him close to that money (and repeater tax) to be the 4th offensive option (and sometimes 5th depending on Smarts' mood).

That deal and role in Charlotte made sense for Gordon.

Made sense for Danny not to match. Use of the TPE will determine how clever Danny looks.

The outcome felt obvious this Summer and feels even more obvious with JayCrew going SuperNova
On his podcast Zach Lowe said that the Celtics offered in the range of what the Hornets offered. I think he said it was almost 30M a year for 4 years. I’m pretty sure Hayward just wanted a fresh start somewhere else (and who could blame him, his entire Boston tenure was snakebit)
 

lexrageorge

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I'm not saying that GH owed the Cs anything. GH had his best opportunity to win a ring in his career. I wouldn't have been surprised if he took it - not out of obligation to the franchise but for fulfilling personal goals. Because it would have been his best chance up to now (and for the next four years) to win a ring. But he chose not to.

I don't know how much risk one can be after making $180MM in one's career but YMMV.
One of the traps we can fall into is assuming that players think the same of money as we do. Any of us would look at $180M and decide that there's no reason to ever want for more. However, Hayward is looking at it as potentially leaving $75M or more on the table if he were to opt in and suffer a Klay Thompson injury. And I cannot blame him for not wanting to risk $75M for an outside shot of winning a ring that many former NBA players end up auctioning off later in their lives.

As for the ring, he may have assessed the Celtics chances of winning a ring this coming season very differently. When Hayward left, Kemba was (and still is) hurt, the J's still needed to grow their game a bit (which they appear to be doing), the bench had been badly exposed, and there were a lot of young players with very uncertain trajectories. The Eastern Conference seemed to be getting better, and the Lakers aren't going anywhere.

If he's healthy, he can put up some points for a few years as the #1 option in Charlotte. Maybe they win a couple of playoff series, and he perhaps gets a couple All Star nominations and possibly a 3rd team All-NBA team appearance or two. That's not nothing. Yeah, a lot of things have to break right for that to happen, but that path just didn't exist in Boston.
 

EvilEmpire

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I’m pretty sure Hayward just wanted a fresh start somewhere else (and who could blame him, his entire Boston tenure was snakebit)
I don't doubt this is true.

Given that he wouldn't be a primary option for the team but still a valuable asset, he may also have worried about being the Celtic most likely to be traded sometime during that new contract.

"Hayward, Kemba plus picks" might have been a phrase seen and heard a lot, with a ton of speculation as to what it would take to acquire playerX to beat the Lakers and put the Celtics over the top.
 

benhogan

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On his podcast Zach Lowe said that the Celtics offered in the range of what the Hornets offered. I think he said it was almost 30M a year for 4 years. I’m pretty sure Hayward just wanted a fresh start somewhere else (and who could blame him, his entire Boston tenure was snakebit)
I doubt they were all that close to matching the Hornets. Unless Danny had figured out a way of unloading Kemba and keeping Gordon, which I would have been happy with (but didn't appeal to GH)

Didn't it come out that Hayward's camp and Brown's camp were vying for the #2 option? So If Danny/Brad said they were fully committed to building around JayCrew (right decision IMO), Gordon probably told them not to bother, and get a deal done with Indy (the cause of the delay).

I wouldn't expect the Celtics to add a player this season to put them into the repeater tax.
 

DJnVa

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Hayward also seems like someone, if he is inclined to ring chase, can play an important role on a contender after this contract runs it's course. He's smart, he can pass, and he can shoot. He'll have time to ring chase.
 

HomeRunBaker

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A lot of us are overthinking this. In real life could you imagine your wife’s response if you came home and told her we are passing up $75m to remain in Boston?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Turner's "breakout" is interesting--blocks and steals are up. But he has the lowest usage rate of his career. His three point % is down. Rebounds are down, assists are static.

His % of points on fast breaks is WAY up--to 10% from 3%, and % of points off turnovers is also way up--nearly 19%, when last year it was about 13%. So, with a lot of fast break points, is he leaking out more--leading to some easy fast break points, thus a higher shooting percentage from 2P?

His % of points from mid-rage is WAY down. Down to 4.3%. Just 2 years ago it was over 20%. So he's moved his offensive game close to hoop and way from hoop. That's good.

We'll see if he can keep improving.
Not to turn this into the Myles Turner thread but here's an article - https://www.thescore.com/nba/news/2087264 - that suggests that IND has changed its defensive philosophy to run people off the 3P line and then funnel players towards MT, which results in his huge blocks numbers. (A little video included.) Downside appears to be that IND is giving up way more fouls than last year too.

Also, this article wad written before they gave up 125 to PHO and 127 to SAC (but then they held GSW to 95 points). Also, IND has not played a murder's row of opponents - taking out the B2B v BOS, they have played NYK (twice and split), CHI, CLE, NOP, and HOU.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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A lot of us are overthinking this. In real life could you imagine your wife’s response if you came home and told her we are passing up $75m to remain in Boston?
If I had already made $150MM in my career? I mean my wife isn't going to say to me, "Play where ever you feel most comfortable"?

People with a lot less $ turn down huge raises all the time because they like their job, they like their boss, they like their organization, they like their community, and/or they like their schools.
 

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Would it surprise anyone to see him back in boston in 2024? Assuming Stevens is still here (medium assumption) and that he takes a Vet Min contract (fair Assumption) or similar. Being a 10-14 pt 3 ast 4 reb guy on Tatum and Browns Championship aspiration teams seems like a good gig and a good fit.

(and assuming decent health)

Now maybe there is enough bad blood (Jaylen?) or dislike for the area to preclude this. Or maybe a more established Jaylen (and Jayson) and a known Culture and Area with Championship aspirations look really appealing.
 

HomeRunBaker

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If I had already made $150MM in my career? I mean my wife isn't going to say to me, "Play where ever you feel most comfortable"?

People with a lot less $ turn down huge raises all the time because they like their job, they like their boss, they like their organization, they like their community, and/or they like their schools.
Maybe Gordon and his wife didn’t like those things in Boston? It wouldn’t be surprising considering where they grew up.
 

johnmd20

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A lot of us are overthinking this. In real life could you imagine your wife’s response if you came home and told her we are passing up $75m to remain in Boston?
Not every woman is a money grubbing whore, man. Perhaps his wife was more concerned with what would make Gordon happier.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Not every woman is a money grubbing whore, man. Perhaps his wife was more concerned with what would make Gordon happier.
Many women are more inclined to think about the financial security of their kids, grandkids and their kids. That doesn’t make them whores or money grubbing. I’d take the money too.....how many workers would decline pay raises in their jobs if the opportunity presented itself? CTC
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Many women are more inclined to think about the financial security of their kids, grandkids and their kids. That doesn’t make them whores or money grubbing. I’d take the money too.....how many workers would decline pay raises in their jobs if the opportunity presented itself? CTC
Pretty confident that kids, grand kids, kids' grandkids, grandkids' grandkids, grandparents, dogs, cats, birds, and everyone else is already taken care of.

P.S. Lots of people decline raises to work in unknown situations to stay in good situations. There are a few threads of the sort in the TBLTS every year.
 

Kliq

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People really need to stop taking it personally when stars leave Boston. The analysis in this thread sucks.
 

OurF'ingCity

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Funny thing is, Kevin Durant did basically exactly what some in this thread are advocating for (taking less money and declining the chance to be a clear-cut alpha dog to play on more of a contender with a number of other great players), and he was raked across the coals for that (and "Decision"-era LeBron before him). Athletes, particularly those that command high salaries, are always going to get criticized no matter what decision they make.
 

chilidawg

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Funny thing is, Kevin Durant did basically exactly what some in this thread are advocating for (taking less money and declining the chance to be a clear-cut alpha dog to play on more of a contender with a number of other great players), and he was raked across the coals for that (and "Decision"-era LeBron before him). Athletes, particularly those that command high salaries, are always going to get criticized no matter what decision they make.
Yup.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Pretty confident that kids, grand kids, kids' grandkids, grandkids' grandkids, grandparents, dogs, cats, birds, and everyone else is already taken care of.

P.S. Lots of people decline raises to work in unknown situations to stay in good situations. There are a few threads of the sort in the TBLTS every year.
Why do people keep calling Boston a “good situation” for two Midwesterners raising a young family? Culture shock is rarely a good thing when you may not be comfortable with the lifestyle change.
 

johnmd20

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Many women are more inclined to think about the financial security of their kids, grandkids and their kids. That doesn’t make them whores or money grubbing. I’d take the money too.....how many workers would decline pay raises in their jobs if the opportunity presented itself? CTC
The Hayward's are pretty good in that department. This contract difference is the difference between getting a 5th house or just renting an entire Ritz hotel for a one month vacation. It's funny money at that level.

Gordon should have left. His tenure in Boston was a catastrophe from minute one due to the injury. Some people just want to bury their ghosts. Plus, he was getting edged out by everyone on the team.
 

cheech13

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People really need to stop taking it personally when stars leave Boston. The analysis in this thread sucks.
Exactly. I don’t remember this much analysis of Gordon’s decision when he left a better team in Utah to come to Boston in the first place. It’s a fool’s errand to try to figure out what drives these decisions when we know so little about them personally or what their motivations are.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Exactly. I don’t remember this much analysis of Gordon’s decision when he left a better team in Utah to come to Boston in the first place. It’s a fool’s errand to try to figure out what drives these decisions when we know so little about them personally or what their motivations are.
That's because you weren't reading the Utah Jazz boards back then. :cool:

Besides, we're bored not having any real BOS Bball to talk about.
 

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Why do people keep calling Boston a “good situation” for two Midwesterners raising a young family? Culture shock is rarely a good thing when you may not be comfortable with the lifestyle change.
Yeah, it's quite possible they just didn't like Boston and/or the intensity of Boston fans. And that's absolutely fine. I have some friends from the Chicago area that moved to Boston and absolutely hated it. It's not for everyone.
 

Cellar-Door

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Basically all NBA FA discussions seem to come down to this:

Is my favorite team good.... Player X should have signed with us if he wanted to play for a title, he's a loser for signing with a bad franchise

Is my favorite team not good... Player X is a loser for ring chasing, he should have signed with my team to prove he can be a real star.
 

GeorgeCostanza

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You're right how arrogant to assume that playing for a big market team that has been in 3 of the last 4 conference finals and playing for a small market team that has never won a playoff series in its history aren't the same in terms of basketball relevance.
Hate to pile on since you seem like a decent guy who has a reasonable (yet still lacking, esp wrt OOB defensive alignments) baseline of basketball knowledge...but the Boston arrogance is pretty strong. Maybe if you spent a little time outside of New England you could gain some perspective? I know it’s COVID and all but pop your head out of moms basement in Southie or Winthrop or where ever it is you are and take stock.

Maybe Gordo wants to lift up the Charolette market? Build it into something akin to the center of theNBA world that OKC had? Maybe he wants to be the guy to wash the bad executive stink off of MJ?
 

Tony C

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Basically all NBA FA discussions seem to come down to this:

Is my favorite team good.... Player X should have signed with us if he wanted to play for a title, he's a loser for signing with a bad franchise

Is my favorite team not good... Player X is a loser for ring chasing, he should have signed with my team to prove he can be a real star.
lol....yep. You should put this in a place to cut/paste...apt for many, many threads over the years.