Carry on my Hayward Son: Gordon to Charlotte for 4 years, $120M

benhogan

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Clearly, GH wanted a bigger role on offense. I'm still not going to clutch my pearls with losing Gordon.

Yes, GH was good/efficient.
Yes, I would rather have him than Kemba's knee.

With Tatum/Brown's offseason work ethic and continuous improvement mindset, maybe he saw the writing on the wall? His role would be corner shooter on offense. I'm fine with gambling on Grant/Nesmith for that lower usage role.

I'm not going to go bad on GH but he did have pain in the bad ankle and needed an injection last December (2yrs after the accident). Red Flag. And whenever I saw him off the court it was with his headset playing Call of Duty. Whenever I see Tatum in the offseason it's with Hanlan/gym.

I'm giving the ball to the 22yr old gym rat and not thinking twice about it.
 

BigSoxFan

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Clearly, GH wanted a bigger role on offense. I'm still not going to clutch my pearls with losing Gordon.

Yes, GH was good/efficient.
Yes, I would rather have him than Kemba's knee.

With Tatum/Brown's offseason work ethic and continuous improvement mindset, maybe he saw the writing on the wall? His role would be corner shooter on offense. I'm fine with gambling on Grant/Nesmith for that lower usage role.

I'm not going to go bad on GH but he did have pain in the bad ankle and needed an injection last December (2yrs after the accident). Red Flag. And whenever I saw him off the court it was with his headset playing Call of Duty. Whenever I see Tatum in the offseason it's with Hanlan/gym.

I'm giving the ball to the 22yr old gym rat and not thinking twice about it.
Yeah, I have no animosity towards Hayward. I was very excited when we got him, very bummed out when he suffered his gross injury, and continually disheartened that he could never get back physically to where he was in Utah. He was a good teammate and is seemingly a good person so I wish him well in Charlotte.

With that said, I'm glad we didn't get him back, even for 4/100. I just don't want any part of that contract and I'd obviously take it over Kemba's but otherwise I think we need to find a younger 3rd banana (if that guy isn't Smart already).

If Green 18 ever comes, it'll happen because Tatum/Brown reached their full potential so if anything even remotes threatens that natural order, I want it gone.
 

Euclis20

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Unless there's some evidence that Hayward didn't deal with the Celtics in good faith, there is almost nothing he could do or say at this point for me to do anything other than wish him well. It's easy to say that his Celtics' career ended exactly the same as it started (with a terribly unlucky leg injury), but that isn't true. It ended with him coming back early from an injury (he clearly was nowhere near 100%) and missing the birth of his son so that he could give the Celtics a better chance to win. That says all I need to know about his character and commitment to the team.
 

reggiecleveland

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Unless there's some evidence that Hayward didn't deal with the Celtics in good faith, there is almost nothing he could do or say at this point for me to do anything other than wish him well. It's easy to say that his Celtics' career ended exactly the same as it started (with a terribly unlucky leg injury), but that isn't true. It ended with him coming back early from an injury (he clearly was nowhere near 100%) and missing the birth of his son so that he could give the Celtics a better chance to win. That says all I need to know about his character and commitment to the team.
word
 

NomarsFool

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Unless there's some evidence that Hayward didn't deal with the Celtics in good faith, there is almost nothing he could do or say at this point for me to do anything other than wish him well. It's easy to say that his Celtics' career ended exactly the same as it started (with a terribly unlucky leg injury), but that isn't true. It ended with him coming back early from an injury (he clearly was nowhere near 100%) and missing the birth of his son so that he could give the Celtics a better chance to win. That says all I need to know about his character and commitment to the team.
There's an emotional component here where many fans were waiting for 3 years to realize the dream that was promised when he signed with Boston, to have "Utah Gordon" playing at a high level, and propelling the Celtics into the NBA finals. That never happened, and many of us still thought there was a chance for that to happen next season by Gordon opting in. That didn't happen, obviously. So, from an emotional perspective - I'm going to be bitter about that.

The second component is that in choosing to go to Charlotte, Gordon prioritized money and glory - being "the man" and chose one of the garbage teams in the NBA. He chose that over sticking with the Celtics, or going home to Indiana to be near family. People value different things - but to me, I think he made a choice he will regret. So, I lost a bit of respect for him as a person - frankly. If he wants to go and get 20 shots a game so he can score 20 points a game and win 20 games a year - I just don't have a ton of respect for that.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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There's an emotional component here where many fans were waiting for 3 years to realize the dream that was promised when he signed with Boston, to have "Utah Gordon" playing at a high level, and propelling the Celtics into the NBA finals. That never happened, and many of us still thought there was a chance for that to happen next season by Gordon opting in. That didn't happen, obviously. So, from an emotional perspective - I'm going to be bitter about that.

The second component is that in choosing to go to Charlotte, Gordon prioritized money and glory - being "the man" and chose one of the garbage teams in the NBA. He chose that over sticking with the Celtics, or going home to Indiana to be near family. People value different things - but to me, I think he made a choice he will regret. So, I lost a bit of respect for him as a person - frankly. If he wants to go and get 20 shots a game so he can score 20 points a game and win 20 games a year - I just don't have a ton of respect for that.
Understand what you are saying but first, he didn't have a choice to go to IND. Pritchard ruined that path for him.

As for CHA, it could be that he just wants to see how good he could be again. I'm sure before the injury, he was thinking he could be all-NBA, and he's not going to get there in BOS. Granted, he's probably not going to get there in CHA, but to be a professional athlete takes an incredible drive in addition to talent so it's probably just his nature to shoot high.

I thought he'd want to play at least one more year for a contender but I guess he wanted the challenge and the security. Hope he enjoys it.
 

CJM

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There's an emotional component here where many fans were waiting for 3 years to realize the dream that was promised when he signed with Boston, to have "Utah Gordon" playing at a high level, and propelling the Celtics into the NBA finals. That never happened, and many of us still thought there was a chance for that to happen next season by Gordon opting in. That didn't happen, obviously. So, from an emotional perspective - I'm going to be bitter about that.

The second component is that in choosing to go to Charlotte, Gordon prioritized money and glory - being "the man" and chose one of the garbage teams in the NBA. He chose that over sticking with the Celtics, or going home to Indiana to be near family. People value different things - but to me, I think he made a choice he will regret. So, I lost a bit of respect for him as a person - frankly. If he wants to go and get 20 shots a game so he can score 20 points a game and win 20 games a year - I just don't have a ton of respect for that.
The first part is reasonable. Being a fan is inherently emotional and subjective and having an emotional response to his decision seems legit (and it's a feeling I share to some degree).

The second seems...ungenerous and maybe unrealistic? Sure, he could have re-signed here, which might have been ideal (though I felt the same way about Horford and look how that turned out). Could he have gone back to Indiana, though? If he said to Danny, "It's Indiana or bust" and Pritchard said, "Take Turner or no deal," then what's Danny to do? And what recourse does Hayward have since they couldn't have signed him outright?

As for choosing Charlotte, from our perspective I get where you're coming from, but I think our perspective is so very far away from the type of decision-making that a dude like Hayward goes through (as evidenced by how often we misread these decisions), that I think it's just as likely we're wrong either in the considerations he balanced or we just fundamentally don't view these decisions the same way.

EDIT: Or what @wade boggs chicken dinner said more concisely.
 

NomarsFool

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Understand what you are saying but first, he didn't have a choice to go to IND. Pritchard ruined that path for him.
We obviously don't know all the dealings, but I don't think that is actually the case. There was maybe a period of time when maybe if Boston and Indiana could have come to an agreement they would have made the trade before Charlotte came in. But, DA seemed to hint that Charlotte came in and pretty much made any S&T's irrelevant.
 

sezwho

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We obviously don't know all the dealings, but I don't think that is actually the case. There was maybe a period of time when maybe if Boston and Indiana could have come to an agreement they would have made the trade before Charlotte came in. But, DA seemed to hint that Charlotte came in and pretty much made any S&T's irrelevant.
I think it’s also hard to underestimate the influence of the agent here. I’m not saying players are just followers, but high powered agents are forces of nature when it comes to influence in the same way elite players are on the court.

The standard refrain ‘it will get around that he sent players to be unhappy for more money’ rings hollow for me.

There was a lot more money in Charlotte than anyone else could:would put on the table, agents gonna agent.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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We obviously don't know all the dealings, but I don't think that is actually the case. There was maybe a period of time when maybe if Boston and Indiana could have come to an agreement they would have made the trade before Charlotte came in. But, DA seemed to hint that Charlotte came in and pretty much made any S&T's irrelevant.
If Turner couldn't be spun into something worthwhile, I just don't see any way for BOS and IND to come to an agreement. Turner is such a net negative to BOS financially that to do that deal, IND would have had to throw something valuable into the deal and we know that's not Pritchard's MO.
 

TripleOT

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Hayward really didn’t do that much for the Celtics when he was here. We can lament that he might have been a big part of this season if he opted in or extended, but if his past history in Boston is any indication, we probably wasn’t going to get much out of him.

The Celtics paid him $93 million, and got exactly one game’s worth of playoff performance commiserate with a guy making $30 million a year.

Looking back on his time in Boston, the Celtics probably get to two NBA Finals if they had a random $10 million wing on the team in place of Gordon.

Hopefully, Ainge can spin the TPE into one, so this years squad can advance to the Finals. It’s no one’s fault that it didn’t work out for GH in Boston, and I wish him luck trying to get the Hornets to .500.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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No issues with Hayward, but to this day I’m still worried that the first 5 minutes of 2018 cost us our shot at a title in the post-Nets trade era.
 

Jimbodandy

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There's an emotional component here where many fans were waiting for 3 years to realize the dream that was promised when he signed with Boston, to have "Utah Gordon" playing at a high level, and propelling the Celtics into the NBA finals. That never happened, and many of us still thought there was a chance for that to happen next season by Gordon opting in. That didn't happen, obviously. So, from an emotional perspective - I'm going to be bitter about that.

The second component is that in choosing to go to Charlotte, Gordon prioritized money and glory - being "the man" and chose one of the garbage teams in the NBA. He chose that over sticking with the Celtics, or going home to Indiana to be near family. People value different things - but to me, I think he made a choice he will regret. So, I lost a bit of respect for him as a person - frankly. If he wants to go and get 20 shots a game so he can score 20 points a game and win 20 games a year - I just don't have a ton of respect for that.
I don't want to pile on, but your second paragraph is an extraordinarily uncharitable take on the situation. People move on to new jobs for lots of reasons, not the least of which are significant pay increases. He doesn't owe the Celtics any more than the Celtics owe him. As far as I can see, he did his job to the best of his ability while he was here under the circumstances.
 

chilidawg

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I don't want to pile on, but your second paragraph is an extraordinarily uncharitable take on the situation. People move on to new jobs for lots of reasons, not the least of which are significant pay increases. He doesn't owe the Celtics any more than the Celtics owe him. As far as I can see, he did his job to the best of his ability while he was here under the circumstances.
Well said. He may well have moved on because he wanted the challenge of taking a young team to the playoffs. In Boston a young team would be taking him. I learned a long time ago that it's a fools errand to try to judge people based on guessing what their motivations are. Best to just pay attention to their actions. And since he's left the C's, I'm over him.
 

lovegtm

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...
Looking back on his time in Boston, the Celtics probably get to two NBA Finals if they had a random $10 million wing on the team in place of Gordon.
...
I think a lot of Gordon Hayward as a basketball player, but this is the point I keep coming back to.

If the Celtics had Danny Green or Robert Covington or Joe Ingles or Evan Fournier or Will Barton or Trevor Ariza or any similar guy the past 3 years, they likely have 2 Finals appearances, and maybe a win this past one.

Are any of those guys better than Gordon Hayward? Nope. But they cost a lot less and are eminently gettable for not-crazy trade prices.
 

lexrageorge

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Hayward really didn’t do that much for the Celtics when he was here. We can lament that he might have been a big part of this season if he opted in or extended, but if his past history in Boston is any indication, we probably wasn’t going to get much out of him.

The Celtics paid him $93 million, and got exactly one game’s worth of playoff performance commiserate with a guy making $30 million a year.

Looking back on his time in Boston, the Celtics probably get to two NBA Finals if they had a random $10 million wing on the team in place of Gordon.

Hopefully, Ainge can spin the TPE into one, so this years squad can advance to the Finals. It’s no one’s fault that it didn’t work out for GH in Boston, and I wish him luck trying to get the Hornets to .500.
These posts do overlook the fact that Hayward was a very effective and efficient player this season. Hayward was part of the best 3-man rotations this season. He had a couple of freak injuries that have zero predictive value going forward, no matter what they say on WEEI.

Any player can get hurt at any time. And, if it's any consolation, the Celtics would probably lose both Finals series in 5 games.
 

shoelace

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I don't want to pile on, but your second paragraph is an extraordinarily uncharitable take on the situation. People move on to new jobs for lots of reasons, not the least of which are significant pay increases. He doesn't owe the Celtics any more than the Celtics owe him. As far as I can see, he did his job to the best of his ability while he was here under the circumstances.
This pretty much encapsulates my feelings on it. I really enjoyed watching Gordon play basketball, and it sucks that he never got to be healthy here for a playoff run, because he's really good. I have no ill will towards him. It's funny, when you look at like NBA Reddit or NBA twitter (which are mostly dogshit, but they're fun to look at to get a sense of like normie NBA takes), Ainge takes heat for his "disloyalty" to IT. He rushes players back from injury, destroys their bodies, whatever, it's mostly nonsense from people predisposed to hate the Celtics anyway. But my point is, loyalty is a bullshit concept in the NBA. It's applied selectively by dipshits to support their hot takes. Literally exactly the same type of person that thinks the Celtics "owed" IT the Brinks truck will ignore the fact that they paid Gordon Hayward $100,000,000 to miss over 100 games, and were prepared to offer him (from what we hear) around that amount to come back. Players can, and should, take the best contract they are offered. The idea that there was some moment that the Celtics could have traded Hayward to Indiana without hearing the Hornets offer is absurd, his agent did what agents are supposed to do, as well they should. Players are the product, they create the value, and they should be fighting for the greatest share. GMs can, and should, always be trying to get players to sign the best possible contracts that maximize flexibility and move off players in decline.

I have no resentment toward Gordon, I'll probably tune in to some Hornets games to check in on him, and I hope he stays healthy and plays well for the rest of his career (except if it threatens the Celtics in some material way). I feel like the only player I actively dislike who has left the Celtics recently is Kyrie. I totally understand why he did it, and it may work out for him and in that sense I'm fine with him doing it, but at an emotional level, fuck that guy. I really want to save my ire for people that actually deserve it.
 

DJnVa

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I don't want to pile on, but your second paragraph is an extraordinarily uncharitable take on the situation. People move on to new jobs for lots of reasons, not the least of which are significant pay increases. He doesn't owe the Celtics any more than the Celtics owe him. As far as I can see, he did his job to the best of his ability while he was here under the circumstances.
Eh. We're "fans", it's not really comparable from our side of it like a guy moving from Google to Apple for an extra $25,000/year in salary. There's a different level of investment. Not speaking for the poster you're replying to, but I would assume he's speaking in the context of being a sports fan, which is just a different type of thing.

I certainly don't think he owes the Celtics a thing. But we can be disappointed in the decision.
 
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pjheff

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No issues with Hayward, but to this day I’m still worried that the first 5 minutes of 2018 cost us our shot at a title in the post-Nets trade era.
When Kyrie walked last year, I thought about the succession of correct moves that Ainge had made -- acquiring Thomas from Phoenix and building value into him, acquiring Crowder from Dallas and building value into him, acquiring the picks from New Jersey and waiting for their value to emerge -- only to be left with nothing. A few years ago, there seemed to be so many avenues for the C's to get better -- cap space, lottery picks, tradable assets -- and while Ainge struck gold with his lottery picks, signed max free agents, and traded for star talent, the GM that Red Auerbach called "the luckiest man I know" has certainly suffered some tough breaks, with the Hayward injury being the beginning of them. Now, with little in the way of cap space and no high picks for the foreseeable future, he really needs some internal development, from not only Tatum and Brown but also TL/Langford/Nesmith, and to find some other undervalued talent languishing on other NBA rosters.
 

nighthob

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The idea that there was some moment that the Celtics could have traded Hayward to Indiana without hearing the Hornets offer is absurd, his agent did what agents are supposed to do, as well they should.
The thing is that Hayward clearly wanted to go to Indiana given how long he waited before signing in Charlotte. Unfortunately for him Indiana is run by a jackhole who demanded that Boston fix his payroll mistakes and send him Hayward to boot. When Boston couldn't help Hayward get where he wanted he did what players have done since time immemorial, he took the best offer sitting on the table.
 

lovegtm

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When Kyrie walked last year, I thought about the succession of correct moves that Ainge had made -- acquiring Thomas from Phoenix and building value into him, acquiring Crowder from Dallas and building value into him, acquiring the picks from New Jersey and waiting for their value to emerge -- only to be left with nothing. A few years ago, there seemed to be so many avenues for the C's to get better -- cap space, lottery picks, tradable assets -- and while Ainge struck gold with his lottery picks, signed max free agents, and traded for star talent, the GM that Red Auerbach called "the luckiest man I know" has certainly suffered some tough breaks, with the Hayward injury being the beginning of them. Now, with little in the way of cap space and no high picks for the foreseeable future, he really needs some internal development, from not only Tatum and Brown but also TL/Langford/Nesmith, and to find some other undervalued talent languishing on other NBA rosters.
The thing is, as good as those moves were, none of them, including the Kyrie trade, got the Celtics a top-10 player.

They now have Tatum. If he's not a top-10 player now (I think he is, and the depth of last year's playoff run without Hayward and with a gimpy Kemba is evidence of that), he will be very soon. They also have Brown, who has progressed steadily and seems to have untapped upside.

All those little GM moves and picks on your hands are nice, but having a top-10 (likely soon top-5) player trumps all of that, and trumps it really hard. For the first time since Garnett, the Celtics are one of the teams who has the elite talent.

I know it feels sophisticated to call everyone a homer, but most teams in the NBA would kill to have Tatum and Brown locked up for 4 more years, especially at their ages.
 

pjheff

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I know it feels sophisticated to call everyone a homer, but most teams in the NBA would kill to have Tatum and Brown locked up for 4 more years, especially at their ages.
Tatum and Brown are the part of the plan that has panned out, and I'm not lamenting them. There just seem to be far fewer avenues to add to that nucleus than there were a few years ago, when we had cap space, potential lottery picks, and more tradable assets.
 

benhogan

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Tatum and Brown are the part of the plan that has panned out, and I'm not lamenting them. There just seem to be far fewer avenues to add to that nucleus than there were a few years ago, when we had cap space, potential lottery picks, and more tradable assets.
I don't follow. We could lament about the unlucky injuries over the last 3 seasons. BUT this team is in the best position over the next 5 seasons to contend for multiple championships since the BIG3

Tatum/Brown are the nucleus created by said lottery picks.

They have the largest TPE (and 2 other smaller Kanter/VP TPEs) heading into a year where some teams may be motivated to shed salary/make moves due to the economy/2021 FA/robust 2021 Draft. So they have pseudo cap space

It appears like Danny is ducking the luxury tax this season so he can go big salary-wise down the road.

They have a whole bunch of cheap, young, controlled players that can be added with some of the TPE effectively (don't need matching salaries then) with sellers.

The Celtics ended up being a hair unlucky with Sacramento and Memphis lottery picks, but those were both created by excellent previous moves by DAR. The jury is out on Romeo/Nesmith.

They still own all their future 1st round picks, which can be added to deals.

They have plenty of avenues to add/keep/develop talent around JayCrew. Other than Kemba's knee issues, there is nothing else to really feel terribly concerned about IMO.
 

ManicCompression

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Tatum and Brown are the part of the plan that has panned out, and I'm not lamenting them. There just seem to be far fewer avenues to add to that nucleus than there were a few years ago, when we had cap space, potential lottery picks, and more tradable assets.
The part that is tough to breakdown is what were the alternative paths? Because I can't really find forks in the road where DA had a real opportunity to get a prime player and came up short.

Jrue Holiday - I would hope Danny would never make the deal that Milwaukee made for him. I don't believe he's in the echelon of players you give up the farm for
Anthony Davis - was always, always, always going to the Lakers once LeBron signed there.
Kawhi - wouldn't commit beyond the last year of his contract and SA was asking for JB in return. It's not a slam dunk the Celtics win the championship in 2019 with Kawhi, so would you in retrospect give up Jaylen Brown for one year of Kawhi? I wouldn't. And in FA, it was clear that he had his eyes set on the Clippers
Jimmy Butler - another scenario where he wouldn't commit beyond one year if traded, and I wouldn't trade Jaylen Brown for one year of Butler. In FA, he wanted to go Miami and they S&T for him - Celtics can't compete with that
Kevin Durant - Was never going to sign with Boston, especially because his friend Kyrie drafted him to Brooklyn
Paul George - IIRC, he wouldn't commit beyond one year (and him re-signing in OKC was a nailbiter). Also, in retrospect having seen Playoff P, would he have made a difference these last few years?

Looking at the list of marquee players that have moved teams - Russell Westbrook, Chris Paul, Blake Griffin - feels like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. Paul still has some value, but if you thought the Cs cap was bad now, plop his $43 million on there.

Ainge did get two years of Kyrie, who should've been much better but is too much an asshole to realize what it takes to be great, for essentially nothing. He got Horford, who was really, really good for us during his time here. He got Hayward, who would've been great if not for totally fluke injuries. And he replaced Kyrie with Kemba, who you could consider a misstep because of injury risk but when he's played he's been all we could ask of him. Those were four bites at the apple to create a complete, deep, threatening team and unfortunately things haven't lined up yet. I can't hold it against Ainge that Kyrie is a prick and Hayward broke his ankle.

Celtics also got unlucky in the draft by having picks from Sac and Mem during their best recent seasons and during shitty draft years. It happens and it's all luck. But who's to say Romeo doesn't show similar improvement to JB's second year and he's as much of a chit as a player like Landry Shamet?

Now, could we have gotten something more in return Kyrie or Hayward or Horford before they left? Maybe, but the Celtics are also a perennial playoff team. They've been hamstrung by how good they are and didn't have the same options to asset collect as a non-playoff team. It would've been extremely dumb for them to trade some of their best players away to get assets in return when those guys are contributing to deep playoff runs.

I could've missed something, but I'm interested to hear from other posters where Ainge messed up and what he could've done otherwise.
 

pjheff

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I don't follow. We could lament about the unlucky injuries over the last 3 seasons. BUT this team is in the best position over the next 5 seasons to contend for multiple championships since the BIG3
I'm not sure that we are in better shape than we felt in the summer of 2017.

Tatum/Brown are the nucleus created by said lottery picks.
By two of them, and Ainge scored on both. But we swapped the last Nets pick for Irving while the Sacramento and Memphis picks didn't fully materialize, and now for the first time in seven years we don't have another team's potential lottery pick in our treasure chest to add an impact talent (either directly or via trade)..

They have the largest TPE (and 2 other smaller Kanter/VP TPEs) heading into a year where some teams may be motivated to shed salary/make moves due to the economy/2021 FA/robust 2021 Draft. So they have pseudo cap space
They have pseudo cap space but not much in the way of desirable assets to trade for an impact player to fill it.

It appears like Danny is ducking the luxury tax this season so he can go big salary-wise down the road.
By "big" do you mean that he is going to be in a position to add salary or simply give more of it to players like Brown (this year) and Tatum (next year) who are already on the roster?

They have a whole bunch of cheap, young, controlled players that can be added with some of the TPE effectively (don't need matching salaries then) with sellers.
Yes they are "cheap," "young," and "controlled," but are they "good?" It seems to me that Ainge really needs for Langford and/or Nesmith to pan out as contributors (not necessarily this season, just overall).

The Celtics ended up being a hair unlucky with Sacramento and Memphis lottery picks, but those were both created by excellent previous moves by DAR. The jury is out on Romeo/Nesmith.
I agree. I'm just saying that we don't have any such picks currently as a path to improvement.

They still own all their future 1st round picks, which can be added to deals.
I expect our 1st round picks in the 20's are going to have limited value.

They have plenty of avenues to add/keep/develop talent around JayCrew. Other than Kemba's knee issues, there is nothing else to really feel terribly concerned about IMO.
I think they may require a third asset moving forward and have fewer ways to acquire it. I don't see them clearing enough cap space again in the Tatum/Brown era to sign a max free agent. Neither do I see them being in position to draft such a talent. It seems to me that either Stevens is going to need to groom one or Ainge is going to have to procure an unidentified one.
 

DJnVa

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I'm not sure that we are in better shape than we felt in the summer of 2017.
You are applying hindsight where I'm not sure you can--we had no idea in the summer of 2017 we were going to get a a potential top 5 NBA player with the #3 pick in the draft and we were trading for a guy in Irving we weren't 100% sure would resign with us.
 

pjheff

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I could've missed something, but I'm interested to hear from other posters where Ainge messed up and what he could've done otherwise.
To be clear, I wasn't suggesting that Ainge "messed up," and I was the first to reference the bad luck. I'm talking about the path forward from here and the seemingly reduced means by which to get better / add impact talent.

You are applying hindsight where I'm not sure you can--we had no idea in the summer of 2017 we were going to get a a potential top 5 NBA player with the #3 pick in the draft and we were trading for a guy in Irving we weren't 100% sure would resign with us.
I don't think I am, as I'm not singling out Tatum. I just meant that in the summer of 2017 we had signed two max free agents in Horford and Hayward, traded for another potential one in Irving, and drafted two #3 picks with two other potential lottery picks on the horizon. There seemed to be more paths to a championship than just Tatum becoming a potential top 5 NBA player.
 

BigSoxFan

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I actually think we’re in a better spot in 2020 than 2017. In 2017, Kyrie and Hayward were the focus but Kyrie hadn’t yet signed long term and was never going to be an alpha dog on a title team. Jaylen was a raw player who still had a wide range of potential outcomes. Tatum certainly had promise but was far from a sure thing. Smart was a quality role player but was shooting the 3 at like a 28% clip.

Fast forward to 2020, Tatum is a 22 year-old knocking on the door of Top 10 status, if he’s not there already. Brown has solidified himself as a top 30ish player with some more growth remaining. Smart is now shooting 3’s at a 35% or so clip. Kemba has replaced Kyrie and has his own knee concerns but still will add value on the floor when he’s there. There are multiple young guys in Romeo, Nesmith, Time Lord, Grant with upside. The TPE is available to add another valuable piece.

It’s tough going 3 out of 4 ECF and not breaking through but I feel like this team is right there. I would be pretty surprised if they didn’t have a finals appearance in the next 4-5 years.
 

bakahump

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I know we can only count on what we have currently in hand (ane even then a year out a Super star....which is what Tatum is now....can demand a trade), But whose to say that Tatum doesnt see this for what it is. A great opportunity. He may also realize the same thing when Danny tells him "Look Kemba has hamstrung us a bit, we are working to get a 3rd/4th guy here to Help. Gordon was a non starter and wanted to leave (...and possibly had issues with you being the man to his exclusion...). So we are working Jason. We are looking. We want to put the best guys around you we possible can. If you have an Idea tell us! We will do our best". In that perspective this seems like a great place to stay (LB style) for his entire career.
I would have PP all over him telling him how shitty it was leaving for greener pastures when they werent.
 

ManicCompression

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I actually think we’re in a better spot in 2020 than 2017. In 2017, Kyrie and Hayward were the focus but Kyrie hadn’t yet signed long term and was never going to be an alpha dog on a title team. Jaylen was a raw player who still had a wide range of potential outcomes. Tatum certainly had promise but was far from a sure thing. Smart was a quality role player but was shooting the 3 at like a 28% clip.

Fast forward to 2020, Tatum is a 22 year-old knocking on the door of Top 10 status, if he’s not there already. Brown has solidified himself as a top 30ish player with some more growth remaining. Smart is now shooting 3’s at a 35% or so clip. Kemba has replaced Kyrie and has his own knee concerns but still will add value on the floor when he’s there. There are multiple young guys in Romeo, Nesmith, Time Lord, Grant with upside. The TPE is available to add another valuable piece.

It’s tough going 3 out of 4 ECF and not breaking through but I feel like this team is right there. I would be pretty surprised if they didn’t have a finals appearance in the next 4-5 years.
Agreed - 2020 Tatum is better than any of the players we acquired that summer and is a legitimate threat to be a first team All-NBA player. Jaylen Brown has potential to get on a third team and both of those guys play the most valuable position in basketball. The best teams in basketball this year are pretty old across the board and, outside of Dallas, I don't see a franchise that has a better claim to be consistent contenders over the next 5 years.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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I guess another good question is are Tatum and Brown as good as they are now if Hayward doesn’t break his leg? My guess is probably not but then again they were likely a cinch finals team in 2018 with healthy Hayward and Kyrie. So many what if’s in the last few years of Celtics basketball.
 

DGreenwood

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It’s tough going 3 out of 4 ECF and not breaking through but I feel like this team is right there. I would be pretty surprised if they didn’t have a finals appearance in the next 4-5 years.
I think this is a key point. Most teams that have had a run like the Celtics just did are talking about how their window is closing and they didn't capitalize on their chances. Instead the Celtics are coming out of that stretch with perhaps the best 5 year outlook in the league. They are in a great position for a team that has been as successful as they have been over the last four years.
 

benhogan

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I guess another good question is are Tatum and Brown as good as they are now if Hayward doesn’t break his leg? My guess is probably not but then again they were likely a cinch finals team in 2018 with healthy Hayward and Kyrie. So many what if’s in the last few years of Celtics basketball.
Prime Bron probably doesn't make anything a cinch...then you had Klay, Steph, KD, AI and Dray waiting for you out West...

was anyone suggesting the Celtics were on their way to multiple Championships in the Summer of 2017?
 

Light-Tower-Power

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Prime Bron probably doesn't make anything a cinch...then you had Klay, Steph, KD, AI and Dray waiting for you out West...

was anyone suggesting the Celtics were on their way to multiple Championships in the Summer of 2017?
Don't think so, but if the hospital squad could take that Cavs team to 7 I think a fully healthy squad would've mopped the floor with them. Not saying they would've beaten Golden State but I think they would've gotten there and made it interesting.
 

Euclis20

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Don't think so, but if the hospital squad could take that Cavs team to 7 I think a fully healthy squad would've mopped the floor with them. Not saying they would've beaten Golden State but I think they would've gotten there and made it interesting.
It's a question that can never be answered, but I suspect LeBron played exactly as hard as he needed to to win that series. No matter what else LeBron will be known for, he'll always be the guy who dominated a conference for a full decade like no one since Russell, at least. He's won 25 straight playoff series against EC opponents. Even if a full strength Celtics' team had managed to get to the finals, ain't no way anyone in the east was mopping the floor with LeBron.
 

Tony C

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Eh. We're "fans", it's not really comparable from our side of it like a guy moving from Google to Apple for an extra $25,000/year in salary. There's a different level of investment. Not speaking for the poster you're replying to, but I would assume he's speaking in the context of being a sports fan, which is just a different type of thing.

I certainly don't think he owes the Celtics a thing. But we can be disappointed in the decision.
People are criticizing a post about having lost respect for GH as "a person" because he signed in Carolina -- totally appropriate to criticize that post for well, for reasons that have been articulated. Obviously anyone can be disappointed in that decision, that's sort of no d'oh and a straw man in this context.
 

Cellar-Door

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I find any criticism of Hayward for choosing Charlotte over Indiana just weird.

Indiana isn't good, doesn't look to have any real path to being good, and seems just toxic in the lockerroom from the stories coming out.
The Hornets aren't good either, but they have a lot of young talent, and seem like a team that would be:
1. More enjoyable to play with
2. Have an easier path to future success.

Also, playing in your home market often sucks, it's a whole bunch of extra problems.

It's not like Gordon turned down the opportunity to replace Klay in GS or to play for some title contender. Indy is a treadmill team with a situation that seems miserable in a shitty city. It's not a more desireable landing spot for an NBA player unless he really wants to play at home (which many players rightly don't).
 

Smokey Joe

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I find any criticism of Hayward for choosing Charlotte over Indiana just weird.

Indiana isn't good, doesn't look to have any real path to being good, and seems just toxic in the lockerroom from the stories coming out.
The Hornets aren't good either, but they have a lot of young talent, and seem like a team that would be:
1. More enjoyable to play with
2. Have an easier path to future success.

Also, playing in your home market often sucks, it's a whole bunch of extra problems.

It's not like Gordon turned down the opportunity to replace Klay in GS or to play for some title contender. Indy is a treadmill team with a situation that seems miserable in a shitty city. It's not a more desireable landing spot for an NBA player unless he really wants to play at home (which many players rightly don't).
OTOH, having 4 kids 5 yo and under makes the idea of having grandma daycare just down the street pretty attractive. It would not surprise me if his wife wants to live near home regardless of what Gordon would like.
Remember, Happy Wife=Happy Life.
 

Cellar-Door

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OTOH, having 4 kids 5 yo and under makes the idea of having grandma daycare just down the street pretty attractive. It would not surprise me if his wife wants to live near home regardless of what Gordon would like.
Remember, Happy Wife=Happy Life.
I mean... 20M will by you a hell of a nanny, or the grandparents a lovely home in a nice warm climate.
 

Smokey Joe

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I mean... 20M will by you a hell of a nanny, or the grandparents a lovely home in a nice warm climate.
40% of the US population live in the same town they were born in. 60% in the same state. Many parents don’t want a stranger raising their kids. They want to share the experience with their parents and brothers and sisters. Many people would rather die then leave the home they raised their children in (Though they wouldn’t mind a kitchen or bath remodel)
It’s all just speculation,, but it wouldn’t surprise me if the Haygoods have different goals then you or I. Or at least me, cause i’d be all over the lovely home in a nice warm climate. I’d probably trade the nanny for someone who’d mow the fricking lawn though.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Especially since his options were between taking the MLE in Indiana, as Pritchard backed out of the deal, or 4/120 in Charlotte.
Hardly----Celtics surely were good for $15-20 mil a year too