Byerie Irving? Do you want Kyrie back?

What are your thoughts on Kyrie?

  • I want him back on max deal no matter what

    Votes: 60 19.5%
  • I want him back on max deal ONLY if AD is also coming

    Votes: 85 27.6%
  • I’m done with him and don’t want him back under any circumstances

    Votes: 109 35.4%
  • Not sure - I want to see how the playoffs go first

    Votes: 54 17.5%

  • Total voters
    308
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DannyDarwinism

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I posed the D'Angelo question with some self-interest in mind, with the thought whether the Celts and Nets could come to a meeting of the minds within the maze that is the NBA cap rules, (and probably involving a tasty pick+ going to Boerum Hill) about swapping PGs. After all we do have a shared history...
Do you want to give a max contract to Russell? Because he’ll be looking for it. I like the kid, but I’d much rather go with Smart + a cheap FA PG (maybe draft Jerome, Ponds or the Tremont Waters to develop) than tie up max money with a no-D volume-scoring PG.
 

nighthob

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I feel like someone could have written this exact post about Kawhi and the Spurs (except maybe the desperately wants to be part), although obviously Kawhi is a better overall player than Kyrie.
I’m not sure how many would have. As far as I know Leonard’s problems with the organization started with the medical staff and then spread to management as they began leaking to the press. When he felt they weren’t taking his medical concerns seriously and then found that the entire org had turned on him he decided that he wanted out. I don’t think anyone’s ever said that he was mercurial.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Do you want to give a max contract to Russell? Because he’ll be looking for it. I like the kid, but I’d much rather go with Smart + a cheap FA PG (maybe draft Jerome, Ponds or the Tremont Waters to develop) than tie up max money with a no-D volume-scoring PG.
I mean, the Cs were already looking at paying max money to a no D volume-scoring PG, albeit a much better one than D-Lo.

It very unlikely that the teams could make it work but Boston could do far worse than to replace Irving with Russell. Then again, I am higher on the guy than others may be. He showed some elite skills last year, he seems comfortable being an alpha and his early immaturity issues aside, he seems like a good teammate.

It wont happen but I could see him becoming a star in Boston.
 

nighthob

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For example, they could trade a pick to the team Kyrie wants to sign with to make it a sign & trade, and create a trade exception. They could then trade for a player into that exception (which could, in theory, be Kemba via a separate sign and trade, or anyone with a big contract). The cost here is likely high because the signing team has no incentive to play along except the value of hte pick they get. But it's an option, isn't it?
Yes, if Brooklyn wanted some cheap depth type players available at 20 or 22 and were amenable you could draft the guy and trade their rights to Brooklyn along with Kyrie to generate a $20.1 million TPE. Knowing that that’s going to happen makes it possible, for example, to trade Jaylen Brown for Bradley Beal straight up as part of the deal by using Irving as the salary ballast.

They almost certainly wouldn’t go along if Boston were proposing to use the Irving deal as part of an Anthony Davis deal, though (as the $20.1 million makes Tatum for Davis straight up work), as I expect that they want to use Russell/whatever to entice New Orleans into a deal.

I posed the D'Angelo question with some self-interest in mind, with the thought whether the Celts and Nets could come to a meeting of the minds within the maze that is the NBA cap rules, (and probably involving a tasty pick+ going to Boerum Hill) about swapping PGs. After all we do have a shared history...
Russell and Dinwiddie have way too much trade value for the Nets to give either to Boston in a sign & trade. The form would look something like Irving/#1 for a second round pick. What Boston gets out of the deal is the ability to pivot post-Kygone.
 

DannyDarwinism

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I mean, the Cs were already looking at paying max money to a no D volume-scoring PG, albeit a much better one than D-Lo.

It very unlikely that the teams could make it work but Boston could do far worse than to replace Irving with Russell. Then again, I am higher on the guy than others may be. He showed some elite skills last year, he seems comfortable being an alpha and his early immaturity issues aside, he seems like a good teammate.

It wont happen but I could see him becoming a star in Boston.
That's a very big "albeit". Kyrie's iso scoring sets him apart from D'Angelo, and it's particularly meaningful in the playoffs, when defenses are keyed in, as evidenced by Russell's disastrous playoff run (-4.9 OBPM!!). Even for the regular season, for as great as Russell was, his OBPM (3.9) would be the second-worst of Kyrie's career.

I'm not trying to shit on him- I loved him as a prospect and I'm happy to see him flourish away from the Lakers- I just don't think he's a great bet to return a lot of value on a max contract. I suppose some of it depends on whether Jaylen and Jayson are still here and if we’re trying to sign both long term.
 

lexrageorge

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I believe, and some folks here know the cap better than I do these days, there's some options for Celts...though not cheap ones.

For example, they could trade a pick to the team Kyrie wants to sign with to make it a sign & trade, and create a trade exception. They could then trade for a player into that exception (which could, in theory, be Kemba via a separate sign and trade, or anyone with a big contract). The cost here is likely high because the signing team has no incentive to play along except the value of hte pick they get. But it's an option, isn't it?
The biggest issue with what you proposed is that the Celtics get screwed by the CBA when it comes to calculating Kyrie's outgoing salary. His outgoing would only be his current salary, or $20.1M. And the TPE's cannot be combined with other salaries or exceptions, so there would be no way to squeeze a player like Kemba into that TPE.

I don't know how much Ainge would really value that $20.1M. It's sort of the netherland of NBA salaries where it forces you into overpaying for a role player. Not sure Ainge would give up a #1 pick, even in the 20's, for that.

As @nighthob noted, it could work as part of a simultaneous multi-team trade, as such trades allow for the combining of salaries (like Brown plus $20.1M for Beal).
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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That's a very big "albeit". Kyrie's iso scoring sets him apart from D'Angelo, and it's particularly meaningful in the playoffs, when defenses are keyed in, as evidenced by Russell's disastrous playoff run (-4.9 OBPM!!). Even for the regular season, for as great as Russell was, his OBPM (3.9) would be the second-worst of Kyrie's career.

I'm not trying to shit on him- I loved him as a prospect and I'm happy to see him flourish away from the Lakers- I just don't think he's a great bet to return a lot of value on a max contract. I suppose some of it depends on whether Jaylen and Jayson are still here and if we’re trying to sign both long term.
You and I are on the same page with regards to Russell if it weren't already clear. I was just saying they could do far worse than to replace Kyrie's minutes with D-Lo.

I think people vastly underestimate how the Celtics will struggle without Irving as their lead scorer. We can wishcast Tatum and Brown or others into that role but even if they continue to make improvements, its a big gulf between them and Kyrie in terms of scoring. More importantly, with him almost certainly gone (with Davis off the table), the C's scoring issues from last season are likely to be even more pronounced.
 

DrewDawg

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I posed the D'Angelo question with some self-interest in mind, with the thought whether the Celts and Nets could come to a meeting of the minds within the maze that is the NBA cap rules, (and probably involving a tasty pick+ going to Boerum Hill) about swapping PGs. After all we do have a shared history...
What benefit do the Nets get from doing this?
 

mcpickl

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I believe, and some folks here know the cap better than I do these days, there's some options for Celts...though not cheap ones.

For example, they could trade a pick to the team Kyrie wants to sign with to make it a sign & trade, and create a trade exception. They could then trade for a player into that exception (which could, in theory, be Kemba via a separate sign and trade, or anyone with a big contract). The cost here is likely high because the signing team has no incentive to play along except the value of hte pick they get. But it's an option, isn't it?
Assuming Horford stays, I think the most likely scenario here would be a three way trade with Kyrie and a pick of some kind from Boston going to Brooklyn, Mike Conley coming here, and Memphis getting a pick(s) and/or young player from Boston. (Plus the assorted fake second rounders/euro stashes coming from Memphis/Brooklyn to satisfy requirements of each team giving the other two something)

Woj has brought up the Celtics interest in Conley more than once. He's not the type to throw stuff out there without having some sourcing behind it.
 

luckiestman

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Assuming Horford stays, I think the most likely scenario here would be a three way trade with Kyrie and a pick of some kind from Boston going to Brooklyn, Mike Conley coming here, and Memphis getting a pick(s) and/or young player from Boston. (Plus the assorted fake second rounders/euro stashes coming from Memphis/Brooklyn to satisfy requirements of each team giving the other two something)

Woj has brought up the Celtics interest in Conley more than once. He's not the type to throw stuff out there without having some sourcing behind it.

I just brought up Conley in another thread without knowing any of this info. I thought Al would have to leave to get Conley. Good to see that might not be true.
 

mcpickl

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I just brought up Conley in another thread without knowing any of this info. I thought Al would have to leave to get Conley. Good to see that might not be true.
I'd be shocked if the Celtics have any interest in Conley if Horford left. You'd have no cap space and a starting lineup of Conley Jaylen Hayward Tatum Baynes?

No point in taking on an expensive veteran if Horford left.

I believe Horford will opt out and re-sign here at a lower salary and more years.
 

PedroKsBambino

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The Kyrie trade exception isn't enough for Conley, but I've read there is a multi-team exception which would let them add a salary---so, I think that can work

All about price here, right?
 

mcpickl

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The Kyrie trade exception isn't enough for Conley, but I've read there is a multi-team exception which would let them add a salary---so, I think that can work

All about price here, right?
It wouldn't be a Kyrie trade exception being used, it would just be a Kyrie trade done all at once.
 

Apisith

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Elite talent is extremely hard to acquire. Kyrie is a 1B but he’s an elite talent. I think you should sign him no matter what. With certainty, players will adjust.
 

djbayko

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Elite talent is extremely hard to acquire. Kyrie is a 1B but he’s an elite talent. I think you should sign him no matter what. With certainty, players will adjust.
Doesn't matter what Big John or Danny want at this point. He's gone. Trust the Kyrie rumors, especially now that we know the Celtics never made a serious offer on AD.
 

lexrageorge

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Elite talent is extremely hard to acquire. Kyrie is a 1B but he’s an elite talent. I think you should sign him no matter what. With certainty, players will adjust.
The Celtics can (and will) offer what is allowed via the CBA, which will be more than what Kyrie will get from Brooklyn. But that will not be enough to retain Kyrie, who's already made his decision known.
 

Jimbodandy

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Doesn't matter what Big John or Danny want at this point. He's gone. Trust the Kyrie rumors, especially now that we know the Celtics never made a serious offer on AD.
Trust the Kyrie rumors--he's gone. Celtics never made a serious offer for AD. Where is your evidence for any of this?
 

djbayko

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Trust the Kyrie rumors--he's gone. Celtics never made a serious offer for AD. Where is your evidence for any of this?
I'm only gong on the recent reports from sports journalists plus Kyrie's recent agent switch. Of course those reports can be wrong, but that's the best we have to go on.



 
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DrewDawg

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Trust the Kyrie rumors--he's gone. Celtics never made a serious offer for AD. Where is your evidence for any of this?
Evidence that Celtics didn't offer Tatum and never thought they were close to anything with NO? Pretty much every post-trade report.

Seems that Ainge's role here was him allowing NO to use him to extract more picks from LAL.
 

Jimbodandy

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Evidence that Celtics didn't offer Tatum and never thought they were close to anything with NO? Pretty much every post-trade report.

Seems that Ainge's role here was him allowing NO to use him to extract more picks from LAL.
Seeing the pick bonanza that ended up in New Orleans, I suppose any offer that didn't include Tatum can be considered "not serious". I just don't believe that we're getting anything close to the full picture and probably won't ever.
 
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I'm looking forward to next year. I admit I could be totally wrong but I'm happy with how things turned out so far because I really couldn't root for the team this year.
 

Cellar-Door

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I believe, and some folks here know the cap better than I do these days, there's some options for Celts...though not cheap ones.

For example, they could trade a pick to the team Kyrie wants to sign with to make it a sign & trade, and create a trade exception. They could then trade for a player into that exception (which could, in theory, be Kemba via a separate sign and trade, or anyone with a big contract). The cost here is likely high because the signing team has no incentive to play along except the value of hte pick they get. But it's an option, isn't it?
A S&T would hard cap the Celtics, they 100% do not want that. If Kyrie leaves, they likely re-sign Al, and other additions will be made with the MLE, LLE, draft picks and trades
 

Lazy vs Crazy

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Why would they care about a hard cap? They don't have enough salary to even get close to that cap even with the trade exception.
 

lexrageorge

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Why would they care about a hard cap? They don't have enough salary to even get close to that cap even with the trade exception.
Without Kyrie's salary, they would be at $102M or so, which puts them $36M below the apron. A Horford extension could probably save another $3M off that, so call it $39M.

Now, they may want to re-sign Morris (who's indicated he would like to return), and likely Rozier as well. Combined, they would eat up about $32M of that, maybe more. Add in their draft picks, and they no longer have enough room to even use the mini-MLE. And they could possibly be precluded from re-signing Theis or Wannamaker.

Using the TPE in that case probably precludes them from resigning one of Morris and Rozier.
 

Cellar-Door

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Why would they care about a hard cap? They don't have enough salary to even get close to that cap even with the trade exception.
They'd be very close, they'l be over 100 before adding whoever they get with the kyrie money, so that would mean renouncing Rozier or Morris at a minimum. Also makes it tough to use the exceptions. It also limits your ability to add players in season via trade.

ALSO... it would hardcap the Nets too, which probably doesn't matter, but you'd have to compensate them for that.

Overall, there isn't a good argument for hard capping yourself, and there isn't a good argument from the Nets' side for making it a S&T when they have cap space, and the new CBA doesn't really benefit the player to be a S&T. So overall, none of the parties involved have any incentive to S&T.
 

mcpickl

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A S&T would hard cap the Celtics, they 100% do not want that. If Kyrie leaves, they likely re-sign Al, and other additions will be made with the MLE, LLE, draft picks and trades
A hard cap goes on the team receiving a player in an sign and trade, not the team sending the player out.

Brooklyn would be hard capped at the apron.
 

Cellar-Door

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A hard cap goes on the team receiving a player in an sign and trade, not the team sending the player out.

Brooklyn would be hard capped at the apron.
Yeah, you're right. I was looking at the questions earlier about a Kyrie/DLo swap and forgot it was both teams on that because both were getting S&T players. If the Nets sent back just draft picks it wouldn't hard cap the Celtics. Still doesn't make much sense, but the hard cap issue isn't there.
 

nighthob

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It would have been a possibility if Irving was still with 24/7 because Ainge has good working relationships with most of those guys (including Wechsler, Irving’s guy there), but now a moot point since he’s moved on to the Nets in-house group ( ;) ). However, the way the deal would look is Irving/#1 for a future #2.

If the Nets hadn’t sent out #17 to move Crabbe it might have gone Irving for Crabbe/#1. But Boston was still working on trying to put together Irving/Davis at that point and not looking to recoup a trade exception for Irving.

If Boston could convince Irving into a gentle Kyrexit, the Nets would not pass on adding an all star guard for fear of Boston converting the trade exception into future mid first round picks or future roleplayers to help them make the playoffs because they’d be the team getting the all star.
 

mcpickl

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Yeah, you're right. I was looking at the questions earlier about a Kyrie/DLo swap and forgot it was both teams on that because both were getting S&T players. If the Nets sent back just draft picks it wouldn't hard cap the Celtics. Still doesn't make much sense, but the hard cap issue isn't there.
If there was a sign and trade involving Irving going to Brooklyn, it would be Brooklyn getting something from Boston for doing it. Brooklyn would have to send something back because of league rules, probably a top 55 protected 2nd rounder, but Boston would be sending them an asset to make it worth it for Brooklyn.
 

nighthob

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I think that current league rules require the asset going back be a tangible one, so it would need to be an actual second rounder. But, yes, that’s the form the deal would take, Irving/#1 for a second rounder.
 

BigSoxFan

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Now that Kyrexit is here, I wonder what Ainge could have gotten at the deadline. Completely understand why no move was made since there was a potential playoff run and AD was still in play but probably could have gotten a future 1st from somebody.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Now that Kyrexit is here, I wonder what Ainge could have gotten at the deadline. Completely understand why no move was made since there was a potential playoff run and AD was still in play but probably could have gotten a future 1st from somebody.
I am curious what is to be gained by this line of thinking. Its history, it was never really discussed beyond maybe this forum and other dark corners of the interwebs. At the time, the general view was that the Celtics still had time to turn things around and/or be in play for Davis.

None of that came to pass and there is nothing that changes the outcome.

The biggest question to me is why Kyrie feels compelled to leave the Celtics. He is clearly a different guy but, on paper, he had everything he could have wanted in Boston except that it wasn't that close to where he grew up. We can chalk it up to his quirks but I would love to know his side of things as it may point to bigger issues with the locker room, coaching or management.
 

BigSoxFan

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I am curious what is to be gained by this line of thinking. Its history, it was never really discussed beyond maybe this forum and other dark corners of the interwebs. At the time, the general view was that the Celtics still had time to turn things around and/or be in play for Davis.

None of that came to pass and there is nothing that changes the outcome.

The biggest question to me is why Kyrie feels compelled to leave the Celtics. He is clearly a different guy but, on paper, he had everything he could have wanted in Boston except that it wasn't that close to where he grew up. We can chalk it up to his quirks but I would love to know his side of things as it may point to bigger issues with the locker room, coaching or management.
I never said there was anything to be gained. If it doesn’t interest you, then feel free to skip it.
 

128

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The biggest question to me is why Kyrie feels compelled to leave the Celtics. He is clearly a different guy but, on paper, he had everything he could have wanted in Boston except that it wasn't that close to where he grew up. We can chalk it up to his quirks but I would love to know his side of things as it may point to bigger issues with the locker room, coaching or management.
I raised this same question in a conversation today. On paper, at least, this is an attractive situation for Kyrie. Clearly, there's more to the story than the public knows.
 

TripleOT

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Maybe it's something as simple as Kyrie wanting to flex his NBA muscle and pick his destination, like LeBron did when he took his talents to Downtown Miami.
 

kazuneko

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I raised this same question in a conversation today. On paper, at least, this is an attractive situation for Kyrie. Clearly, there's more to the story than the public knows.
The Cleveland situation was an even more attractive situation...
The issue isn't Boston, just like it wasn't Cleveland; It's Kyrie.
What the public may not know is that Kyrie Irving has a personality disorder, and this limits his ability to accept responsibility for his decisions or recognize how his behavior affects others. Kyrie wants out because he cannot help but externalize what are in fact his own issues.
 

BigSoxFan

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No you didn't and no offense intended.

Just not sure how you can even begin to answer the question you are asking.
By looking at comparable deals. The Clippers got Shamet and 2 #1’s for Tobias Harris, a 2019 FA and far inferior player. Obviously different dynamics at play but a reasonable comp.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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In layman's terms, he's a headcase...and that's not Boston's fault.
I don't know Kyrie Irving personally nor do I know anyone who does so you might be right. That said, I am interested how you arrived here if you are able to share.

The other explanation is along the lines of what 128 suggested - there may be more to this story than has been reported. We may never learn what is but I would love to know. Irving clearly thought he was going to return before the season started so something changed. Was it Stevens? His teammates? Did Baynes upper-decker his house?

Or maybe kazuneko's sources are right and he has some mental/emotional issues.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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By looking at comparable deals. The Clippers got Shamet and 2 #1’s for Tobias Harris, a 2019 FA and far inferior player. Obviously different dynamics at play but a reasonable comp.
But would Ainge trade Irving to Philadelphia or Milwaukee even if he was throwing in the towel? My sense is that were the Celtics to determine that Irving wasn't returning and that they wanted to get something for him, they would likely send him to the WCF. Then you have narrow down the field to WC "contending" teams who didn't already have a PG. Would Denver have done a similar package? That doesn't seem like their style. The Warriors, Blazers and Rockets weren't a fit so aside from maybe the Nuggets and Clippers (who were in asset acquisition mode), who would be left? And would they pay as much as a somewhat desperate Philly did for Harris?
 

nighthob

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The Clippers did leak that they had tried to trade for Irving this past season. But obviously there was no way to know what they were offering.
 

kazuneko

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I don't know Kyrie Irving personally nor do I know anyone who does so you might be right. That said, I am interested how you arrived here if you are able to share.

The other explanation is along the lines of what 128 suggested - there may be more to this story than has been reported. We may never learn what is but I would love to know. Irving clearly thought he was going to return before the season started so something changed. Was it Stevens? His teammates? Did Baynes upper-decker his house?

Or maybe kazuneko's sources are right and he has some mental/emotional issues.
While I technically do have the license necessary to assess him (I'm a psychotherapist) I will admit that it's not exactly considered good practice to attempt to pin a diagnosis to someone who isn't your patient. That said, in watching his interviews and reading about reports of his behavior over the years, he really has the flavor of someone with NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder). But yeah, that's not a clinically legitimate diagnosis or anything, just the vibe I get from him having worked with personality disordered clients throughout my career.
 

heavyde050

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I don't know Kyrie Irving personally nor do I know anyone who does so you might be right. That said, I am interested how you arrived here if you are able to share.

The other explanation is along the lines of what 128 suggested - there may be more to this story than has been reported. We may never learn what is but I would love to know. Irving clearly thought he was going to return before the season started so something changed. Was it Stevens? His teammates? Did Baynes upper-decker his house?

Or maybe kazuneko's sources are right and he has some mental/emotional issues.
For the bolded - I think (and I am probably wrong) that Kyrie thought he had an easy path to the Finals and he would be seen as the #1 reason for a team to be a title contender. C's underperformed (at least in part due to Kyrie) and he is jumping ship.
He has that right, and I wish him the best. But I am just not sure he is the #1 guy on a title team. I think he is a borderline #1 guy, but definitely the best #2 around. I mean he definitely helped LeBron win that title in Cleveland, but Cleveland never even sniffs a Finals appearance without LeBron (i.e., just Kyrie).
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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While I technically do have the license necessary to assess him (I'm a psychotherapist) I will admit that it's not exactly considered good practice to attempt to pin a diagnosis to someone who isn't your patient. That said, in watching his interviews and reading about reports of his behavior over the years, he really has the flavor of someone with NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder). But yeah, that's not a clinically legitimate diagnosis or anything, just the vibe I get from him having worked with personality disordered clients throughout my career.
I mean, he clearly is the kind of person that would generally be labeled as someone who "marches to the beat of his own drum" so you may well be right. I would love more color on what went down with him the locker room this year but I doubt we ever get anything close to the real story.

Its a shame given that he had a lot of what he claimed he wanted in Boston. Something clearly changed between October and the end of the year and, in Irving's estimation at least, there was no way to work through it.
 
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