Byerie Irving? Do you want Kyrie back?

What are your thoughts on Kyrie?

  • I want him back on max deal no matter what

    Votes: 60 19.5%
  • I want him back on max deal ONLY if AD is also coming

    Votes: 85 27.6%
  • I’m done with him and don’t want him back under any circumstances

    Votes: 109 35.4%
  • Not sure - I want to see how the playoffs go first

    Votes: 54 17.5%

  • Total voters
    308
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kazuneko

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I mean, he clearly is the kind of person that would generally be labeled as someone who "marches to the beat of his own drum" so you may well be right. I would love more color on what went down with him the locker room this year but I doubt we ever get anything close to the real story.

Its a shame given that he had a lot of what he claimed he wanted in Boston. Something clearly changed between October and the end of the year and, in Irving's estimation at least, there was no way to work through it.
Honestly, if I'm right, something will "go wrong" at his next destination as well...
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Honestly, if I'm right, something will "go wrong" at his next destination as well...
If you are right, the New York media (though some members here who are NY locals have stated they are a lot more benign of late) will bait him into saying something controversial or will savage him after a bad stretch or playoff performance.

I cannot imagine a person who suffers from that sort of thing going from one tough media market to an even tougher environment without more problems.
 

Captaincoop

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I don't know Kyrie Irving personally nor do I know anyone who does so you might be right. That said, I am interested how you arrived here if you are able to share.

The other explanation is along the lines of what 128 suggested - there may be more to this story than has been reported. We may never learn what is but I would love to know. Irving clearly thought he was going to return before the season started so something changed. Was it Stevens? His teammates? Did Baynes upper-decker his house?

Or maybe kazuneko's sources are right and he has some mental/emotional issues.
We don't need a source. How many times does Irving need to nuke a good situation before we conclude that he's _______ (fill in the blank: a jerk; difficult to mesh with; emotionally distressed).

It doesn't matter which. All signs point to Kyrie being the problem.
 

lovegtm

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We don't need a source. How many times does Irving need to nuke a good situation before we conclude that he's _______ (fill in the blank: a jerk; difficult to mesh with; emotionally distressed).

It doesn't matter which. All signs point to Kyrie being the problem.
As a concrete prediction: the Celtics have a top-3 defensive rating next year if Horford is back. Whatever the hell was going on this year totally sapped their commitment/consistency on that end, even on non-Kyrie units. I think with him gone, we'll see 2018 playoffs defense.

This does not mean I think they're better without him, or that they won't have trouble scoring.
 

BaseballJones

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To me, there are two downsides to Kyrie leaving. First, obviously they'd lose a massively talented player, and there just aren't that many in the league with his ability. Headcase, etc., sure, but at the end of the day, the guy can PLAY. But second, they'd be losing him and getting nothing tangible in return. No cap space. No player. No pick. Nothing. Not a single tangible asset to help the team. The only "benefit" to him leaving would be "addition by subtraction", for those that buy that that's what will result.
 

lexrageorge

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While Kyrie is not a Top 5 MVP contender, he is certainly a Top 25 player in the NBA. His loss will be felt. But,....

We know Kyrie can be the 2nd dog in an NBA championship team. He and AD would likely have been a nice fit and would have made the Celtics true title contenders. However, if you have to build a team around Kyrie being your top dog, it's not all that easy. He has a tendency to try to do it all on his own, and he's not in the league of players that can do that on a daily basis. Milwaukee was able to defend him, and we've periodically seen other players give him fits as well (IIRC, Avery Bradley did a defensive number on him one game). So far, the evidence of coexistence of Kyrie and another superstar has a sample size of one, and by the end they did not gel all that well.

For the most part, I've defended Kyrie's talk as being the typical banter of an immature, self-absorbed athlete, which is not a characteristic that Kyrie monopolizes by any means. Recall Paul Pierce's "I'm a great player on a bad team"; Ray Allen had a bit of a reputation as well in his early years. However, his explanation of his call with LeBron really bothered me, and probably really bothered a lot of his teammates as well. He could have just said "I reached out to LeBron, as I felt it was time to patch things up. We accomplished great things together, and he gave me some great advice for me to take along going forward." Instead, he goes out and publicly empathizes with LeBron's plight about playing with younger players. It was out of line for a guy that claimed he wanted to be a team leader. LeBron may be able to get away with it; Kyrie cannot.

So, while I do believe in "addition by subtraction" (it does work in some cases, even in the NBA), I certainly don't consider Kyrie's departure to be that. It will hurt the Celtics. And there was literally nothing that could have been done. Kyrie seemed happy here his first season, claimed he was here for the long term back in September, and then goes off the reservation for whatever reason. And it's not like Danny could have traded him at the deadline; it would have appeared like punting on the season, and I'm not even sure he could have convinced Wyc & Co even if he wanted to trade him.

But, the Celtics still do have assets to build around. It's a less optimal path, but circumstances mostly out of Danny's control forced his hand here. Sacramento being unexpectedly good this season hurt, and there is no way Ainge could have predicted that when he made the trade with the Sixers. Memphis has a chance to be pretty bad over the next couple of seasons, although the flattened lottery odds make any prediction of where that pick will end up completely worthless. I'm wondering if it makes sense for Ainge to swing for the fences on his first 2 draft picks, and pick 2 high-ceiling/low-floor players that most people are afraid of, and hope for the best.
 

lovegtm

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While Kyrie is not a Top 5 MVP contender, he is certainly a Top 25 player in the NBA. His loss will be felt. But,....

We know Kyrie can be the 2nd dog in an NBA championship team. He and AD would likely have been a nice fit and would have made the Celtics true title contenders. However, if you have to build a team around Kyrie being your top dog, it's not all that easy. He has a tendency to try to do it all on his own, and he's not in the league of players that can do that on a daily basis. Milwaukee was able to defend him, and we've periodically seen other players give him fits as well (IIRC, Avery Bradley did a defensive number on him one game). So far, the evidence of coexistence of Kyrie and another superstar has a sample size of one, and by the end they did not gel all that well.

For the most part, I've defended Kyrie's talk as being the typical banter of an immature, self-absorbed athlete, which is not a characteristic that Kyrie monopolizes by any means. Recall Paul Pierce's "I'm a great player on a bad team"; Ray Allen had a bit of a reputation as well in his early years. However, his explanation of his call with LeBron really bothered me, and probably really bothered a lot of his teammates as well. He could have just said "I reached out to LeBron, as I felt it was time to patch things up. We accomplished great things together, and he gave me some great advice for me to take along going forward." Instead, he goes out and publicly empathizes with LeBron's plight about playing with younger players. It was out of line for a guy that claimed he wanted to be a team leader. LeBron may be able to get away with it; Kyrie cannot.

So, while I do believe in "addition by subtraction" (it does work in some cases, even in the NBA), I certainly don't consider Kyrie's departure to be that. It will hurt the Celtics. And there was literally nothing that could have been done. Kyrie seemed happy here his first season, claimed he was here for the long term back in September, and then goes off the reservation for whatever reason. And it's not like Danny could have traded him at the deadline; it would have appeared like punting on the season, and I'm not even sure he could have convinced Wyc & Co even if he wanted to trade him.

But, the Celtics still do have assets to build around. It's a less optimal path, but circumstances mostly out of Danny's control forced his hand here. Sacramento being unexpectedly good this season hurt, and there is no way Ainge could have predicted that when he made the trade with the Sixers. Memphis has a chance to be pretty bad over the next couple of seasons, although the flattened lottery odds make any prediction of where that pick will end up completely worthless. I'm wondering if it makes sense for Ainge to swing for the fences on his first 2 draft picks, and pick 2 high-ceiling/low-floor players that most people are afraid of, and hope for the best.
We can be a little more granular re “addition by subtraction.” It’s going to hurt on offense, likely help on defense, improve chemistry, and give young players more room to develop.

Put another way: the offense will almost certainly be worse with the Js running the show this year, but the odds that the Js hit their ceiling just went up considerably imo.
 

DJnVa

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What do we actually think the odds of Kyrie leaving are at this point? I'm losing track with all the smoke out there.
99%. Not 100% because he's a bit flaky.

If he stays he's signing up for the same team he was with last year, and that we've heard he clashed with. He could have told Ainge he was back and if so I think Ainge rolls the dice on AD, which would have led to a more veteran squad. That didn't happen. He's gone.
 

DJnVa

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All-Star Kyrie Irving, who has decided to opt out of his $21.3 million deal for next season to become a free agent, and top Celtics officials are expected to meet with him soon to discuss his future, league sources said. A potential meeting could occur before Thursday’s NBA draft sources said, as both sides could look for clarity ahead of the start of free agency on June 30.
What kind of clarity could the Celtics provide? If he now says "Hey, I want to stay" I'd laugh at him.
 

OurF'ingCity

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What kind of clarity could the Celtics provide? If he now says "Hey, I want to stay" I'd laugh at him.
There are ancillary things to discuss like the potential (admittedly probably very slight) for a S&T. And if he hasn't yet definitively told the Celtics he will not re-sign with them, this could be his opportunity to do that so the Celtics can move forward (or, conversely, the Celtics will just tell him they don't plan on making him an offer, if that is their current position).
 

DJnVa

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Sirius XM NBA Radio was saying this morning that the Celtics and Kyrie have had basically no communications since season ended, and that meeting scheduled for this week is just to tell each other what they already know.

They said KD is in play for the Nets to play with Kyrie, they were supposed to vacation together but the injury curtailed that, but that Kyrie was in NY to see him.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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Sirius XM NBA Radio was saying this morning that the Celtics and Kyrie have had basically no communications since season ended, and that meeting scheduled for this week is just to tell each other what they already know.

They said KD is in play for the Nets to play with Kyrie, they were supposed to vacation together but the injury curtailed that, but that Kyrie was in NY to see him.
Yeah, there was a Himmelsbach tweet yesterday saying that Kyrie has essentially ghosted the Celtics. This all sounds very familiar to what happened at the end of his time in Cleveland. Good riddance.
 

lexrageorge

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The NBA is a small world, and things do happen over the long term (no one predicted LeBron would return to the Cavs). No point in Ainge burning bridges with a star player and his agent, so an amicable break up meeting does serve a purpose. While Irving could probably care less about Celtics or the meeting, it does help his agent to foster a good relationship with one of the league's longer tenured GM's.
 

DJnVa

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Yeah, there was a Himmelsbach tweet yesterday saying that Kyrie has essentially ghosted the Celtics. This all sounds very familiar to what happened at the end of his time in Cleveland. Good riddance.
I get that players that have reached the point to be FAs can and should do whatever they want--same with AD.

But good lord man, anyone that ever thinks Kyrie can and should be a leader is as confused about leadership is as Kyrie is. Disappointing--not in the leaving, but in the manner.
 

RedOctober3829

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Kyrie thinks he can be the lead guy on a team, but this year proved that he has a long ways to go in order to do that successfully. If KD does not sign with him, the situation in Brooklyn is going to be the same as it was in Boston. He will be surrounded by a bunch of young players who have tasted some sort of success before he got there. Not to mention D-Lo, but even guys like Dinwiddie and LeVert have carved out big roles on the team and now will have to take a step back for Kyrie. Kenny Atkinson is a similar coach to Brad Stevens. He believes in trusting the process, staying the course, and player development but where he is different is that he can be more hot-headed than Brad. I can definitely see situations where him and Atkinson clash. I just don't see the situation in Brooklyn ending any differently than it did in Boston. In Boston, he had everything he supposedly wanted until it wasn't.
 

Mystic Merlin

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While he’s certainly mercurial, and it’s hard to tell how much of it is genuine vs shtick, he strikes me as a guy who wants the benefits that come with being top dog but not the responsibilities. He’s not the right fit for the Celtics.
 

DJnVa

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While he’s certainly mercurial, and it’s hard to tell how much of it is genuine vs shtick, he strikes me as a guy who wants the benefits that come with being top dog but not the responsibilities. He’s not the right fit for the Celtics.
Yeah. And I read an article that said the Celtics knew what they were getting, but felt the cost was right to see if they could make it work. It didn't.

Dude was fun to watch, but he's a Robin without a Batman.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Kyrie thinks he can be the lead guy on a team, but this year proved that he has a long ways to go in order to do that successfully. If KD does not sign with him, the situation in Brooklyn is going to be the same as it was in Boston. He will be surrounded by a bunch of young players who have tasted some sort of success before he got there. Not to mention D-Lo, but even guys like Dinwiddie and LeVert have carved out big roles on the team and now will have to take a step back for Kyrie. Kenny Atkinson is a similar coach to Brad Stevens. He believes in trusting the process, staying the course, and player development but where he is different is that he can be more hot-headed than Brad. I can definitely see situations where him and Atkinson clash. I just don't see the situation in Brooklyn ending any differently than it did in Boston. In Boston, he had everything he supposedly wanted until it wasn't.
This. Plus in Brooklyn, both Dinwiddie and LaVert need the ball in their hands to be effective; at least Tatum didn't theoretically need to touch the ball as much as those two.
 

DJnVa

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Just read that the Cavs have tried to talk to Kyrie and he refuses to talk to anyone in that organization.

You know, the one that, in the end, granted him his wish to be traded.
 

Koufax

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I was one of the first ones to vote that i didn't want him back under any circumstances and I've never varied from that. I had more fun watching Ricky Davis play here because Ricky clearly enjoyed the game. He played with a smile on his face. Kyrie has much more talent but he drains all the pleasure out of the game.
 

Van Everyman

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In retrospect, I think Kyrie completely took the wrong lesson from playing with Lebron. I think he thought what Lebron did could be replicated in Boston. But while Kyrie is often otherworldly he's not Lebron otherworldly (and wasn't as good this year as he had been pre-injury either). If you're not winning games singlehandedly it's kind of hard to be the my-way-or-the-highway kind of guy he was this year. It's just disappointing. Even with his mercuriality, it should have worked out better than it did.

Interesting to me as well that no one on the team so much as said word one about wanting him back next year.
 

BaseballJones

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Clearly the right move at the time to trade for Kyrie, 100%. But it's also clear that the Kyrie Irving era in Boston was a pretty significant disappointment. Their best success came when he wasn't even playing.
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

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I was one of the first ones to vote that i didn't want him back under any circumstances and I've never varied from that. I had more fun watching Ricky Davis play here because Ricky clearly enjoyed the game. He played with a smile on his face. Kyrie has much more talent but he drains all the pleasure out of the game.
Well, he got buckets and he was a STAARR...

I loved Ricky Davis when he was here. Agree wholeheartedly. If someone with his love for the game had Kyrie's talent, he'd be the face of the league.
 
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sezwho

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In retrospect, I think Kyrie completely took the wrong lesson from playing with Lebron. I think he thought what Lebron did could be replicated in Boston. But while Kyrie is often otherworldly he's not Lebron otherworldly (and wasn't as good this year as he had been pre-injury either). If you're not winning games singlehandedly it's kind of hard to be the my-way-or-the-highway kind of guy he was this year. It's just disappointing. Even with his mercuriality, it should have worked out better than it did.

Interesting to me as well that no one on the team so much as said word one about wanting him back next year.
This is where I'm at as well. Lebron's generational talent overcame his me first approach to the coach/GM/franchise/style of play/etc. Kyrie assumed this was leadership (dumping on the young guys and being a primadonna) but has now seen it worked for Bron because his talent overcame the rest of the crap, not because of it. I actually think he's smart enough to learn from this experience and would resign him if he were open to it, but thats just me.

As to what/when the train came off the tracks, I don't even think its a mystery....On October 4th he said he would come back, which triggered Rozier to go vigorously into the tank (Christ he bragged about this recently himself) and began the end of the season. Within weeks he had backed off the commitment (I actually think to preserve chemistry) and Brad was embarrassingly unable to manage even TR (GTFO Tea-Rose and don't let the door hit you!).
 
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DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Clearly the right move at the time to trade for Kyrie, 100%. But it's also clear that the Kyrie Irving era in Boston was a pretty significant disappointment. Their best success came when he wasn't even playing.
It depends on how you define "best success" (and I know you are likely referring to the Celtics playoff run from the spring of 2018) but I think people are grossly undervaluing Irving's contributions on the court. I don't love rooting for the guy and, while some people here might have sources, we really don't know what his teammates actually think of him.

That said, in '17-18, the Celtics were 41-19 (~68% winning percentage) when he played during the regular season and 14-8 when he didn't (~64% winning percentage). Their net rating with him on the court was +3.1. In '18-19, the Celtics were 37-30 (~55% winning percentage) with him and 12-3 (80% winning percentage) without him. They were a +2.8 in net rating with him on the court this past season too. Its important to note that some of the regular season games he missed were "load management" types of games where the opponent was a weaker team so their record without him may not really tell us much.

Kyrie Irving clearly isn't the easiest guy to root for but some of these comments about him come off as sour grapes/ghosted lover type of comments. The bottom line is that regardless of how you feel about him, its going to be a challenge for the team to replace his production. He is an elite offensive talent and those are extremely dear in the NBA.
 
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CreedBratton

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Honestly, if they don't make it to the east finals in 2018 and/or Kyrie doesn't get hurt, the unraveling of this team probably doesn't happen. It's crazy that Making it to game 7 of the east finals was the worst thing that could have happened to this franchise and those young guys but it was.

I won't miss Kyrie as he's a head case but DeJesus is right. He's an elite talent who can score with ease & the Celtics won't have anyone who can score easily next year. It's going to be such a grind for buckets & you hate to lose a guy for nothing but good riddance at the end of the day.
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

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In retrospect, was the failure to get rid of Rozier and/or give him a more defined role the linchpin for the team's overall unhappiness and Irving's withdrawal? Did they not get along the year before but it was masked by the winning and Irving siting on the sidelines down the stretch?

Rozier looked like he might be a really good player as a starter, but they couldn't go with him over a healthy Irving. Might have been one of the rare misses by Danny Ainge to try to have his cake and eat it too.
 

BaseballJones

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It depends on how you define "best success" (and I know you are likely referring to the Celtics playoff run from the spring of 2018) but I think people are grossly undervaluing Irving's contributions on the court. I don't love rooting for the guy and, while some people here might have sources, we really don't know what his teammates actually think of him.

That said, in '17-18, the Celtics were 41-19 (~68% winning percentage) when he played during the regular season and 14-8 when he didn't (~64% winning percentage). Their net rating with him on the court was +3.1. In '18-19, the Celtics were 37-30 (~55% winning percentage) with him and 12-3 (80% winning percentage) without him. They were a +2.8 in net rating with him on the court this past season too. Its important to note that some of the regular season games he missed were "load management" types of games where the opponent was a weaker team so their record without him may not really tell us much.

Kyrie Irving clearly isn't the easiest guy to root for but some of these comments about him come off as sour grapes/ghosted lover type of comments. The bottom line is that regardless of how you feel about him, its going to be a challenge for the team to replace his production. He is an elite offensive talent and those are extremely dear in the NBA.
I'm not talking about net rating. I'm talking about wins and losses, and yes last year's playoff run. Kyrie is by far the best and most talented player on the Celtics and it will be extraordinarily difficult to replace his ability. And while we can talk (you are likely correct) about the "load management" games, the bottom line was that this team gelled big time with Horford, Tatum, and Brown leading the way. Minus Kyrie. And, it should be noted, minus Hayward.
 

DJnVa

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Kyrie Irving clearly isn't the easiest guy to root for but some of these comments about him come off as sour grapes/ghosted lover type of comments. The bottom line is that regardless of how you feel about him, its going to be a challenge for the team to replace his production. He is an elite offensive talent and those are extremely dear in the NBA.
Of course they're sour grapes. We didn't achieve something we really wanted, and now Kyrie is bolting. Sour grapes doesn't mean anyone is wrong.

Why wouldn't we be upset at the way it turned out?
 

PedroKsBambino

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In retrospect, was the failure to get rid of Rozier and/or give him a more defined role the linchpin for the team's overall unhappiness and Irving's withdrawal? Did they not get along the year before but it was masked by the winning and Irving siting on the sidelines down the stretch?

Rozier looked like he might be a really good player as a starter, but they couldn't go with him over a healthy Irving. Might have been one of the rare misses by Danny Ainge to try to have his cake and eat it too.
I definitely believe it was a mistake, and it's hard to know how impactful a mistake...Kyrie is mercurial regardless of whether his backup is causing issues.

I do think, just in terms of trade value, moving Rozier last fall was always the best asset move.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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My memory was that he just defended him and refused to blame him for the team's failures, not that he wanted him back.

My kid is playing at his camp next week. Maybe we'll have a chat about it.
Have your kid ask Marcus how he feels about a good portion of Mark Blount's Port Cellar trying to concoct crazy trades where Smart is being sent to another team as salary ballast. Marcus Smart is the anti-Kyrie in that he is so all in on being a Celtic and leading by example. Yet people cannot wait to ship him out of town...

/joke...partially

#MarcusSmarfForever
 

Van Everyman

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Marcus Smarf is my kid's favorite player (and maybe mine). She's over the moon that she's going to his camp. Kyrie she will be sad to see go ... she literally put her head face down on my bed when I told her IT was traded. But in her eyes, he's no Marcus.

Even if Kyrie is treating them like a jerk by ghosting them, part of me thinks the Celtics should be commended for having kept their mouths shut. It can't help, but it's not easy to control. And maybe ... just maybe ... there's still a chance he'll reconsider about next year. I'd still be shocked, but with Kyrie? Who knows.
 

djbayko

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Give me prime Chris Paul all day. He was still injury prone, but still played plenty of games. The last 3 years, he's played 61, 58, and 58 games. There's a good chance he won't be available when you need him most, and he doesn't exactly seem like the same player anymore. No thank you.
 

kazuneko

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To me, there are two downsides to Kyrie leaving. First, obviously they'd lose a massively talented player, and there just aren't that many in the league with his ability. Headcase, etc., sure, but at the end of the day, the guy can PLAY. But second, they'd be losing him and getting nothing tangible in return. No cap space. No player. No pick. Nothing. Not a single tangible asset to help the team. The only "benefit" to him leaving would be "addition by subtraction", for those that buy that that's what will result.
The NBA needs to change this in the next CBA. I mean, Jesus, it's gotten ridiculous. Ainge has been brilliant and yet in the end it doesn't really matters as "championship building" in this league has become about self-obsessed stars choosing super teams through free agency and forcing trades. Now it seems like just as GS is about to give up its super team mantel, LeBron and company are going to build the next super team. I mean, Jesus, can't we at least have one year when the likely champion isn't decided before the first game of the year? The playoffs in the Eastern Conference were fun for the first time in years because nobody knew who was going to win it . And the only reason the Finals wasn't a snore fest was that two elite super-stars went down with major injuries. I mean, you know the league has lost it's excitement when the only hope of an exciting playoffs is untimely injuries to franchise players.
The league needs to alter the CBA in a way that raises salaries in general while making it harder for franchise players to change teams. Give the players more money, even make it easier for non-franchise players to change teams, but somehow (attach draft pick penalties, allow a franchise tag etc.) this league needs to make the end stage of the playoffs more competitive. The only way to do that is to somehow get a handle on free agency among the elite stars.
 

ifmanis5

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Smarf is a product of "Weird Celtics Twitter"
There is only one Smarf...
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Kyrie hurt the organization short term and long term.
Short term in that there was a 2-year window where the Celtics could get to the Finals or maybe even challenge the Dubs. They went 0-for-2 and did better without him.
Worse, he hurt them long term by poisoning the well to the extent that AD wouldn't consider coming (despite Danny's 4-year plan to get him) and Kyrie himself was so toxic that he had to go. Trading for him was worth the risk but boy did it turn out to be the worst possible outcome and it may set the franchise back years. And as mentioned upthread, getting nothing back (not even a compensatory pick like in other leagues) other than his cap space hurts.
 
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