Byerie Irving? Do you want Kyrie back?

What are your thoughts on Kyrie?

  • I want him back on max deal no matter what

    Votes: 60 19.5%
  • I want him back on max deal ONLY if AD is also coming

    Votes: 85 27.7%
  • I’m done with him and don’t want him back under any circumstances

    Votes: 108 35.2%
  • Not sure - I want to see how the playoffs go first

    Votes: 54 17.6%

  • Total voters
    307

BigSoxFan

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The point of this thread is simple. Based on what you know now, do you want Kyrie back next year on a max deal?
 

DrewDawg

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Seems like he's a completely fine leader when things are going well. But when they're not...
 

SemperFidelisSox

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Yes, you need superstars to win in this league. Kyrie, Davis and some veteran ring chasers who know their role.

Bring in a character coach, priest, Indian guru, whatever to keep the locker room zen. Ubuntu.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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I voted wait for the playoffs. As of right now my answer is no because I find him extremely challenging to root for but if he is a monster in the playoffs maybe my attitude will change.
 

j-man

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the best long term play is to rebuilb on the fly with tafum brown hayward R Williams M Smart and your 4 1sts

let say irving signs in ny in 3 years his knees will give out and u can give kyrie $$ to tafum and trade brown for a 2020 1st plus i think u have mem 20 or 21 1st which shouild be top 10
 

sox311

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That's what she said.
It's not fun. I don't want to watch the Kyrie circus for five more years. And that may be all emotional, but, that is what being a fan is.

Cut your losses. The window was last year with this team. Now we can build on Tatum and Brown along with whatever Danny gets for the other assets.

Just think of the difference we would have seen had we gotten Paul George for the package we gave for Kyrie.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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People r weird. Just over a year ago, this team was the toast of the town and KI was the leader of said team. Flash-forward a year, take the dame players but add in Gordon Hayward, and let's run KI out of town?

The NBA is a talent league. KI is a more talented than anyone else on this team,
 

sox311

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That's what she said.
People r weird. Just over a year ago, this team was the toast of the town and KI was the leader of said team. Flash-forward a year, take the dame players but add in Gordon Hayward, and let's run KI out of town?

The NBA is a talent league. KI is a more talented than anyone else on this team,
He is talent that has turned this team into a flaming pile of garbage. There have been plenty of players in the NBA who have been net negatives even considering their amazing talent.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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He is talent that has turned this team into a flaming pile of garbage. There have been plenty of players in the NBA who have been net negatives even considering their amazing talent.
Do you really think KI is playing any differently this year than last year?
 

Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat

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People r weird. Just over a year ago, this team was the toast of the town and KI was the leader of said team. Flash-forward a year, take the dame players but add in Gordon Hayward, and let's run KI out of town?

The NBA is a talent league. KI is a more talented than anyone else on this team,
Yep. Keep him.
 

Ale Xander

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He is talent that has turned this team into a flaming pile of garbage. There have been plenty of players in the NBA who have been net negatives even considering their amazing talent.
Exhibit A:
Karl Malone

Exhibit B:
Allen Iverson
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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While I am at it, let's discuss everything that we know for a fact has changed from last year.

(1) GH is playing significant minutes. I'm rooting for GH but frankly, the Cs probably would have been better off this year - but not in the long run - if Semi had played those minutes.

(2) JB isn't hitting .395 of his 3Ps anymore.

(3) TR has been terrible of the bench.

(4) JT has been taking - and missing - a lot of contested 2s.

(5) MaMo has turned into a pumpkin.

(6) Al is a year older.

(7) AB got hurt and missed a ton of games.

Every player other than KI is playing worse than last year by what I see :)GH would have been better if he played far fewer minutes) but everyone thinks it is KI's fault?

Tough crowd.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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If the C's let Irving walk, who replaces his scoring? I love Jayson Tatum but he has a lot of work to do on learning to finish around the rim (his stats are pretty bad), shot selection overall and defense. I think the Juice Brown we are seeing now is him making a leap but he is growing into a third option type so its not him. So who gets buckets for the Celtics when you need them?

Irving, as mercurial as he seems, isn't really the problem here unless someone here has actual insight into his thinking/impact on the team (in my book, insight isn't a sixty second clip on social media). Instead, he seems as frustrated as many fans with the team's struggles. The problem is the team has no clear second scoring option and their defense is porous. Fix those two things, let Irving do his thing and see where it goes. Otherwise, we are likely looking at a team that plays on either side of .500 next year.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Things I've learned from this thread.

1. Kyrie's knees will give out in 3 years.
2. Kyrie's talent has destroyed the team.
3. Karl Malone was a net negative.
4. Allen Iverson was a net negative.

You win in this league with elite talent. Keep Kyrie and please get me a drink.
 

luckiestman

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I need to know the non Kyrie plan.

If he splits and Al opts out, who does Ainge target, do we have room for a max?

Smart, JB, Tatum, Healthy Hayward (fingers crossed) is not bad at all
 

Ale Xander

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I need to know the non Kyrie plan.

If he splits and Al opts out, who does Ainge target, do we have room for a max?

Smart, JB, Tatum, Healthy Hayward (fingers crossed) is not bad at all
Kemba as plan A? Rubio or Collison as plan B who can play a bit of D but not be explosive on O but can still run an offense?

Maybe Brook Lopez to replace Horford with a different skillset (but can still shoot 3's)?
 

luckiestman

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Kemba as plan A? Rubio or Collison as plan B who can play a bit of D but not be explosive on O but can still run an offense?

Maybe Brook Lopez to replace Horford with a different skillset (but can still shoot 3's)?

No chance for Klay, right?
 

nighthob

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I need to know the non Kyrie plan.

If he splits and Al opts out, who does Ainge target, do we have room for a max?

Smart, JB, Tatum, Healthy Hayward (fingers crossed) is not bad at all
I’m guessing that if Irving and Durant decide to team up on another squad that the plan will be to go after Beal since the Wiz are rebuilding. It would help Boston if Ainge can convince 24/7 Management to do him a solid and let Irving leave via sign & trade so that Boston can offer Washington the benefit of a TPE in a deal that’s likely to be built around Brown/Rozier/Memphis pick for Beal.
 

luckiestman

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I’m guessing that if Irving and Durant decide to team up on another squad that the plan will be to go after Beal since the Wiz are rebuilding. It would help Boston if Ainge can convince 24/7 Management to do him a solid and let Irving leave via sign & trade so that Boston can offer Washington the benefit of a TPE in a deal that’s likely to be built around Brown/Rozier/Memphis pick for Beal.

I’d rather have Beal anyway. I’m going to hold you to this.
 

nighthob

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Beal & Tatum are friends, so it might be a fairly good fit for Boston. Not sure if Beal can defend quicker guards. But if he could play acceptable D at the 1, you could theoretically let the offense run through Hayward and Horford with Smart continuing to be a 6’4” Swiss Army Knife.
 

TripleOT

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I’m guessing that if Irving and Durant decide to team up on another squad that the plan will be to go after Beal since the Wiz are rebuilding. It would help Boston if Ainge can convince 24/7 Management to do him a solid and let Irving leave via sign & trade so that Boston can offer Washington the benefit of a TPE in a deal that’s likely to be built around Brown/Rozier/Memphis pick for Beal.
If the Memphis pick conveys when it's unprotected, that could be a top 5 pick with the Griz rebuilding. Brown and that pick seems to be a lot to give up for Beal (but I probably value Brown and his long term potential a lot more than many on here).
 

nighthob

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Beal is young and a mentor to Tatum, so it would have the effect of reducing long-term friction. The Memphis pick would be a gamble, of course.

I suppose they could try to break Brown up by sending him to the Hawks for the Dallas pick and a future first, which would allow them to keep at least one lottery ticket for later and build the deal around Rozier/2019 draftee/one of Memphis/Atlanta pick.

I sort of like Nickeil Alexander-Walker as potential PG of the future if Irving leaves.
 

TripleOT

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If the C's let Irving walk, who replaces his scoring? I love Jayson Tatum but he has a lot of work to do on learning to finish around the rim (his stats are pretty bad), shot selection overall and defense.
If you're referring to finishing at the rim, JT is at 70% this year (63% as a rookie). For comparison, Paul George is at 63.7. If you're referring to close in, non-layups/dunks, Tatum is at 34.5% (26% last season). Many great players struggle with the close in shot. LeBron is at 28.7%. George is at 37.1,

Tatum had a very efficient rookie year, but didn't try generating as much offense as he is doing this season. 57% of his buckets are assisted, to 66% last season. For non-layup two point shots, JT was assisted on 50% of his makes as a rookie, and only 43.7% this year. He made 36.8% of these this season, and 38.7% last season, not big difference in accuracy, but his volume from this range is up. He's taken the same amount in 3/4 of this season as his entire rookie campaign. Of course, JT's not hitting the three as well as last season, .371 to .434, with not much difference on percentage of threes that were assisted, .842 this season to .859 last,
 

lovegtm

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1. Kyrie Irving, when engaged, is a top-10 NBA player, particulary wrt playoff value
2. Kyrie Irving, on this current roster, is a cancer, and is completely destroying the culture the team built the past few years.

If you think that you can trade for AD, fix the redundancies on the roster, get a semblance of Hayward back, re-sign Horford to a 3/60 type deal, and convince Kyrie to re-sign based on all those, I can see the logic in just sucking it up wrt #2 for the rest of this year, since Kyrie+AD+Smart+Horford+90% Gordon is a really, really good team that likely wouldn't have the chemistry issues and incentive mismatches of the current group.

Obviously the fear is that Kyrie completely checks out based on this year's results and doesn't re-sign, even with an AD deal in place. At that point the decision is somewhat made for the Celtics anyway, and they can pass on the AD deal and build around the younger core.
 

rymflaherty

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^
Is Irving really a top 10 player?

That’s in my mind because the LeBatard show was playing an exercise, how many playoff team have a player better than the Celtics (that you’d want more than Kyrie).

As a neutral observer I think my answer is an easy 8, and that doesn’t count Mitchell, DeRozan, a healthy Oladipo, Griffin and maybe even Deangelo Russell, who I’d have to think more about.
It also doesn’t count teams with multiple stars, or players I’d take from teams not currently in the playoffs - Davis, Lebron, Doncic, etc.
 

Devizier

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As a neutral observer I think my answer is an easy 8, and that doesn’t count Mitchell, DeRozan, a healthy Oladipo, Griffin and maybe even Deangelo Russell, who I’d have to think more about.
Yeah, none of those guys rates above Kyrie.

Even if you place someone like Griffin above Kyrie on the whole, he gets extra credit since he's demonstrated (repeatedly) that he can score on playoff defenses.
 

BigSoxFan

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Pretty interesting that 41% of respondents only want Kyrie back if AD is coming. That the unconditional support of a Kyrie return is only 18% speaks volumes on how disappointing this season has been for many of us.
 

nighthob

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Pretty interesting that 41% of respondents only want Kyrie back if AD is coming. That the unconditional support of a Kyrie return is only 18% speaks volumes on how disappointing this season has been for many of us.
I just don’t think he’s coming back unless Durant forces his way here.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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If you're referring to finishing at the rim, JT is at 70% this year (63% as a rookie). For comparison, Paul George is at 63.7. If you're referring to close in, non-layups/dunks, Tatum is at 34.5% (26% last season). Many great players struggle with the close in shot. LeBron is at 28.7%. George is at 37.1,

Tatum had a very efficient rookie year, but didn't try generating as much offense as he is doing this season. 57% of his buckets are assisted, to 66% last season. For non-layup two point shots, JT was assisted on 50% of his makes as a rookie, and only 43.7% this year. He made 36.8% of these this season, and 38.7% last season, not big difference in accuracy, but his volume from this range is up. He's taken the same amount in 3/4 of this season as his entire rookie campaign. Of course, JT's not hitting the three as well as last season, .371 to .434, with not much difference on percentage of threes that were assisted, .842 this season to .859 last,
Tatum is taking fewer shots versus last year at or near the rim. Also, I cannot get his shot chart to load but opponents should want him to be taking it to the rim on his right as he appears to struggle on that side and is above average when going to his left.

The main point, on which we should agree, is that Tatum just isn't a dependable second scorer yet. I think many here are on the same page in that one of the Cs biggest issues is that there is no clear second option after Irving. That has to be as, if not more, frustrating to him than it is to fans. And while we can say confidently that Tatum ia young yet and should get there, I can see how Kyrie might have reservations about waiting for that given that he is currently in the middle of his own career/peak performance window.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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And while we can say confidently that Tatum ia young yet and should get there, I can see how Kyrie might have reservations about waiting for that given that he is currently in the middle of his own career/peak performance window.
I understand what you are saying but KI also wanted to be the lead guy on a championship-caliber team and as pointed out above, there aren't a lot of places to which he could go where he would be the lead guy and still have any shot at all to compete in the playoffs.
 

nighthob

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You don’t think he comes back if Ainge tells Kyrie that he can deliver AD?
He might, but I’m on record as saying I want no part of the Klutch Killer Klown Show. It will be a repeat of this year with LeBron’s agency starting tire fires in the press in order to poison the clubhouse. And a whole ‘nother year of “Will he stay or will he go” ending in his departure.
 

Red Averages

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Brad. Not a question. We've seen LeBron try to play coach and how horribly that has gone. Let's not try that with a far inferior player.
 

bosox79

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Why is Kyrie the scapegoat while Brad gets by unscathed, tho? Especially since everyone and their mother is complaining about the rotations, and it looks like the team has basically tuned out.

It's Morris, it's Rozier, it's Kyrie, it's anyone but the coach. If there actually is a problem, maybe the problem is Brad Stevens. They are not responding to him and they don't trust one another.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Here’s a crazy thought: what if Kyrie says “It’s either me or Brad” – who do you keep?
Not that this would ever be an actual question but shouldn’t be close. You can find a quality head coach for this team by snapping your finger. You aren’t going to snap your finger and acquire a Top 10-15 player in the league for nothing.
 

Ale Xander

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Not that this would ever be an actual question but shouldn’t be close. You can find a quality head coach for this team by snapping your finger. You aren’t going to snap your finger and acquire a Top 10-15 player in the league for nothing.
Actually not true. You can find top players on the FA market but top coaches are already coaching for other teams.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Actually not true. You can find top players on the FA market but top coaches are already coaching for other teams.
We cannot sign this level of a FA as we are well over the cap. Some of the “best” coaches in the league have switched teams as free agents and available on the open market without cap restrictions while providing little impact.
 

OurF'ingCity

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If you think that you can trade for AD, fix the redundancies on the roster, get a semblance of Hayward back, re-sign Horford to a 3/60 type deal, and convince Kyrie to re-sign based on all those, I can see the logic in just sucking it up wrt #2 for the rest of this year, since Kyrie+AD+Smart+Horford+90% Gordon is a really, really good team that likely wouldn't have the chemistry issues and incentive mismatches of the current group.

Obviously the fear is that Kyrie completely checks out based on this year's results and doesn't re-sign, even with an AD deal in place. At that point the decision is somewhat made for the Celtics anyway, and they can pass on the AD deal and build around the younger core.
Basically this. If you want to win a championship in the near future, Kyrie must stay and he must attract another superstar (Davis or, possibly, Durant).

I get that Kyrie's essentially a front-runner, but most NBA stars are. That's why Durant left OKC and why Davis is forcing his way out of New Orleans (and why LeBron left Cleveland the first time, etc. etc.).

I also agree that Tatum, Brown, Smart, GH (and maybe Al on a shorter, cheaper deal if he wants to stay?) plus filler would still be a very solid team, but I don't see that team sniffing a championship unless there are a major changes in the NBA such that "superteams" are effectively ruled out of the game (e.g. elimination of max salaries, hard cap, etc.).

But yes, the good thing is that Kyrie is essentially going to make their decision for them - if he isn't coming back, there is no point in trading everyone for one year of AD so they'll have no choice but to take a minor step back in the short term and start building with the remaining pieces.
 

lovegtm

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We cannot sign this level of a FA as we are well over the cap. Some of the “best” coaches in the league have switched teams as free agents and available on the open market without cap restrictions while providing little impact.
Yup. Budenholzer in Milwaukee, Nurse in Toronto, D'Antoni in Houston...hell, even Kerr was available when the Warriors wanted him.

I think Brad's ability to get crazy amounts out of limited rosters might be rarer than the ability to get a lot out of talented ones, but the latter is what wins championships. The jury is still out on Brad in that regard, but this year hasn't been a great look for him.
 

OilCanMDS

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I really don't know what to make of this Kyrie situation. I've never been a fan of him and I believe he's overrated, but he's also a really efficient volume scorer. The offense stagnates with him in because he's a pretty mediocre passer (side note - I was shocked yesterday when one of the announcers referred to Kyrie as one of the best passers) and it seems like the half court turns into swinging the ball around the perimeter until someday takes a contested 3 or long 2. He offsets the bad offensive flow he seems to bring with his efficient scoring, so we're still better on offense with him on the court. I think we need to run the offense through somebody else and just have Kyrie as the primary scoring option while another player handles the ball. On top of the mixed bag he brings on offense, his defense is generally awful. He's a liability guarding anybody that isn't a PG on ball and it seems like half the time he isn't interested in performing his duties for help defense, whether it's not reacting at all or walking over to stop a drive or contest a 3.

With all of that said, we still need to keep him because he's talented and there is no easy way to use the cap room for him on anybody else. A sign and trade seems unlikely in the current NBA landscape and we're going to be over the cap, so we can't make a run at a free agent star with the money that would go to Kyrie otherwise. I would vote to keep him, but man do I not enjoy watching him or rooting for him. My preferred path would be to sign him and trade him in the middle of next season like the Clippers did to Blake (KOC brought up this idea in his article today).