Back for OTAs or Out to Pasture: Have we seen the last of Peyton Manning?
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You just know that Eli is putting all of his effort in to not smiling.Devizier said:
Two Manning threads = Two Manning faces
dcmissle said:
Had to read this twice to understand it correctly, but I absolutely agree.
I've never seen a QB just fall off the table the way Peyton did these past two months. From near the top of his game to not being able to throw an intermediate ball with any accuracy or power. It's staggering. It's also very likely the end.
Peyton Manning will be an automatic first ballot Hall of Fame selection. My guess is that nearly every QB in the league today would love to be mentioned in such lofty company.
Of the active QB's in the league, Brady and Brees are the closest to being a similar automatic selection (no, I'm not getting into an argument on who's better; that's not the point of this post). Roethlisberger (2 Bowl victories) and Rodgers will probably get there as well. Romo will probably be a borderline candidate due to lack of playoff success and the fact he'll be facing a crowded field. Luck and Wilson could get there assuming they're career arcs go in the expected direction, but both are still too early to know for sure.
The playoff losses are a distraction. The reality is that since Elway won 2 in a row in the late 1990's (the latter being Peyton Manning's rookie season), only 3 QB's have won more than one Super Bowl, and that number would be 2 had it not been for some guy catching a ball on his f*&$ing helmet.
Of the active QB's in the league, Brady and Brees are the closest to being a similar automatic selection (no, I'm not getting into an argument on who's better; that's not the point of this post). Roethlisberger (2 Bowl victories) and Rodgers will probably get there as well. Romo will probably be a borderline candidate due to lack of playoff success and the fact he'll be facing a crowded field. Luck and Wilson could get there assuming they're career arcs go in the expected direction, but both are still too early to know for sure.
The playoff losses are a distraction. The reality is that since Elway won 2 in a row in the late 1990's (the latter being Peyton Manning's rookie season), only 3 QB's have won more than one Super Bowl, and that number would be 2 had it not been for some guy catching a ball on his f*&$ing helmet.
lexrageorge said:
Especially since there's no argument there. Oh, and if Steve Young is in the Hall of Fame, Rodgers should absolutely be there even if he retires a month from now.
someone posted a 2013 article that talked about how PM had to relearn to throw after his last surgery. IIRC, it said that he had to compensate for his weakened arm by using more of his legs. I wonder if the thigh injury lead to his loss of velocity.
The Broncos are going to have a hard time putting a SB-caliber team together. I think PM is done with the Broncos.
All of the answers given above to not wanting Manning to somehow survive are sensible. Still, his total inability to complete passes more than 5-10 yards down field at least raised the question in my mind. In addition to what is written above, I would add that the psychic pleasure in seeing Manning taking another beating on the field and then in the press, though with some of the latter giving him the Jeter deferential treatment following such a performance, is too much to pass up. Nine one and dones for Peyton versus nine Brady AFC Championship games...delicious.
But BernardSamuel raised a point I have been wondering about. Is there ANYTHING to be concerned about with that red spot on Brady's eye ball? Brady was asked about it during the post game news conference and ignored the question. Not that his medical opinion would be that useful anyway. I just wonder if something like that can worsen or if it's more akin to a bruise that just looks bad but has no other impact.
But BernardSamuel raised a point I have been wondering about. Is there ANYTHING to be concerned about with that red spot on Brady's eye ball? Brady was asked about it during the post game news conference and ignored the question. Not that his medical opinion would be that useful anyway. I just wonder if something like that can worsen or if it's more akin to a bruise that just looks bad but has no other impact.
I have always had the "Patriots hatred" of Manning, since the media always propped him up as the greatest ever and he was a rival (so my view is very blinded). I went from the enthusiasm of watching Manning-face part 501 to feeling almost pity for him. To many of of us that are old enough remember watching Willie Mays in his last days with the Mets, this has a similar feel. We all know how great Manning has been and watching him struggle to throw any pass longer than 10 yards was hard to watch in the 2nd half. With the neck issues he has, he has enough ad money coming to where he doesn't need the money and one hopes he realizes that. If his OC leaves for a head coaching job and both of the Thomas's leave, he has to be gone. Even for a Pats fan, that was tough to watch.
Papelbon's Poutine, your post above is harsh.
Doesn't it depend what drives you as a QB? Peyton Manning will end up with ONE Super Bowl win.
If we're talking about careers TO DATE and pretending as if Wilson and Rodgers will not play for the next bunch of years, then yeah, Peyton's individual accomplishments and that one win put him over both of them.
But if we factor in that both Wilson and Rodgers have a reasonable chance at the Super Bowl this season and rings in the future, and also consider that both in fact have many miles to go, it is not at all a stretch to say that guys like Wilson and Rodgers might prefer less gaudy individual stats and more Lombardis (or at least the chance at them) when all is said and done.
And there remains the fact that Peyton just has never been all that great in the playoffs. Nine one and dones is a very damning fact. Many of those teams were excellent and in many of those games the QB played poorly and certainly below his standards. That bit of reality will follow Peyton just as much as the positive records.
To be clear, I don't like Manning. As much as I respect him, I never liked his penchant for blaming his teammates or his ridiculous body language on the field when things went poorly. Those flapping arms and slumped shoulders, and related finger points at teammates, never sat well with me. So what I am saying comes from bias, in part. But that doesn't mean that a QB who would prefer the chance at more rings and the chance for individual accomplishments that will almost certainly be less eye popping than Manning's would be wrong to think that way.
Doesn't it depend what drives you as a QB? Peyton Manning will end up with ONE Super Bowl win.
If we're talking about careers TO DATE and pretending as if Wilson and Rodgers will not play for the next bunch of years, then yeah, Peyton's individual accomplishments and that one win put him over both of them.
But if we factor in that both Wilson and Rodgers have a reasonable chance at the Super Bowl this season and rings in the future, and also consider that both in fact have many miles to go, it is not at all a stretch to say that guys like Wilson and Rodgers might prefer less gaudy individual stats and more Lombardis (or at least the chance at them) when all is said and done.
And there remains the fact that Peyton just has never been all that great in the playoffs. Nine one and dones is a very damning fact. Many of those teams were excellent and in many of those games the QB played poorly and certainly below his standards. That bit of reality will follow Peyton just as much as the positive records.
To be clear, I don't like Manning. As much as I respect him, I never liked his penchant for blaming his teammates or his ridiculous body language on the field when things went poorly. Those flapping arms and slumped shoulders, and related finger points at teammates, never sat well with me. So what I am saying comes from bias, in part. But that doesn't mean that a QB who would prefer the chance at more rings and the chance for individual accomplishments that will almost certainly be less eye popping than Manning's would be wrong to think that way.
Not picking on your personally, as piling on Manning and his "noodle arm" is certainly the consensus opinion, but I think this is being overstated. The first-quarter 32 yard completion to J. Thomas was a perfectly thrown ball. He attempted to beat the Colts deep a few more times and overthrew the ball. I'm not saying Manning has a great arm, he doesn't, but the Colts D deserves more credit than most are giving them. And as good as Brady is, the deep ball is not his strength.TheoShmeo said:
I still think the Pats will win, but I don't expect a blowout.
Over throwing a ball can also be a sign of poor arm strength. When you can't zip a frozen rope you put more air into it and loft it, which can lead to overthrows.
phenweigh, according to an article at ESPN Boston, Manning was 2 for 12 for 49 yards on passes beyond 15 yards and 5 for 21 for 107 yards on passes beyond 5 yards.
So I probably should have qualified "total inability" with a word like "almost" or "near."
Beyond the numbers, other than a few throws, and Manning looking like himself on that first drive, the QB had very little control of the ball on even medium length passes and was reduced to throws near the line of scrimmage for the vast majority of that game.
So I probably should have qualified "total inability" with a word like "almost" or "near."
Beyond the numbers, other than a few throws, and Manning looking like himself on that first drive, the QB had very little control of the ball on even medium length passes and was reduced to throws near the line of scrimmage for the vast majority of that game.
This is unfair. There's a big difference in evaluating a player's career in terms of who has objectively been better (which would take into account supporting casts, bad luck, etc) and evaluating it from the quality of fan experience. I don't think it's at all unreasonable for a fan to be willing to gamble on Rodgers and Wilson going forward--in terms of the overall pleasure derived from rooting for them -- given the incredible, but fraught career of PM. Rodgers and Wilson already have as many rings as Manning. Rodgers is well on his way to being a top 5 QB, and the Pack will have a shot every year so long as he's heathy. Wilson is off to perhaps the best 3 year start of any QB ever, and has been nails in the playoffs. Luck is a little different given his limited playoff success to this point, but he's certainly got the tools to be a HOF QB. Reasonable people can disagree, but it's hardly idotic.Papelbon said:
You can find highlights of Manning's week 3 winning drive @ Seattle on Youtube. His throws in September once again looked nothing like what he was tossing up yesterday. Rather than blowing it up, I think Elway needs to convince everyone that they need to adjust their offensive philosophy to try and keep Manning as fresh as possible for January (Assuming his throwing issue is as related to his leg injuries as reported). The only reason to get rid of Manning is if they believe they have something in Osweiler and can now spread the Manning money around the roster.
I am of the belief that Manning's last year will an announced final season with Jeter-like ceremony throughout. That will be either the 2015 (likely) or possibly 2016 season being his last (assuming no catastrophic injury).
The NFL will want to milk his farewell tour for all that it is worth.
The NFL will want to milk his farewell tour for all that it is worth.
Papelbon's Poutine said:
I don't think I argued my point very well, but to be clear, I was talking about their careers, not their talent or skill level. Give me a great defense and I'd take Brady first and Manning in his his prime in the top-5. However, if I root for GB, Seattle, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, NE, and perhaps Indy now, I would not trade my guy's career accomplishments (and the opportunity to root for those accomplishments) or potential accomplishments for Manning's career.
I was directly addressing the notion that getting to playoffs as much as Manning did was something to celebrate and it's kind of unfair to tarnish that by bringing up his playoff record. Most teams' fans would agree with that - e.g. Cleveland, Jacksonville, Buffalo, and on and on. But fans of the team mentioned above would probably disagree.
EDIT: Or what MarcsullivaFan wrote.
If he really doesn't have an injury and has simply worn down over the course of the season, then I'd have to think it's in his and the team's best interest to really change things up with how he plays going forward. He would need some sort of Clemens-esque pacing of the season, basically sitting out the first half of the year or so in an attempt to be fresh for the post-season. Sure the guy has looked like a shell of himself the last several weeks, but he's the same guy who was leading an offense in the first several weeks that was one of the best in league history. Could the Broncos do a tandem quarterback, or even hand the reins over to Osweiler for the first 8-10 weeks of the season? The idea sounds ludicrous on it's face, but it simply seems that Peyton's not going to be capable of playing a full season plus playoffs at a consistently high-level. Would you not at least consider trying to keep him on the backburner until the stretch run in the hopes that he could play at his former elite level for the 8-10 weeks in the back-half of the season/playoffs?
I'm looking at this thing from a Broncos fan perspective so the key question for me is not "Should/will Manning retire?" but "What should Elway do to best help the franchise?"
Regardless of whether Manning returns or retires (or is cut), IMO Denver should transition fully to a run-first offense and do whatever they can to further boost the defense. Manning is not gonna get through 4 months of high-flying pass attacks any more and neither is whomever take the snaps should he be done. For me, that should be Elway's driving purpose this offseason and should inform the decisions on the coaches and roster.
There's a big part of me that thinks Elway should fire John Fox and the coordinators today. Fox is a super great guy and all that shit, but he and Del Rio/Gase suck so much at making in-game adjustments to win games. It's so disheartening to watch them stick to their game plans over and over when they're not working. Many times over the last 3 years Manning was able to make something happen to overcome that shitty coaching, but his days of being able to do that consistently seem long gone. [NOTE: I don't think Elway will fire Fox with so many question marks about what happens next - see below for those.]
The obviously huge next factor is the need to decide what you do with Manning. His game has never really been about trickery or complicated plays. He has flourished with a relatively simple offense that allowed him to have 3-4 reads at all times that he could hit with his excellent timing instincts and precision. If his body can't make the timing work, he's either got to rework his game or he's toast. So was the leg injury the culprit or just a part of age-related struggle? Can the guy make it through 19 weeks of quality football any more? Is he worth $19M of your cap? Would he be willing to restructure to take a smaller cap-hit with the full understanding that the offense will need to focus on the running game much more? Is Manning going to demand that the coaches stay in order to return (coaching changes have been something he has mentioned as a possible factor)? Just what the fuck is a Brock Osweiler, anyway? Can Osweiler and a Matt Schaub-type warm body be the game managers of a run-first offense?
The third step is to figure out how Manning's situation will impact the rest of the roster. The defense is in pretty good shape with the potential to improve via FA and the draft without too much effort. The O-Line was a shit-show this season and must be redone (but do you build a pass-pro line or a run-blocking road grater line?). The big free agents (both Thomases, Knighton, Franklin, Welker) will certainly be impacted by who will be under center. Unless they overpay them, many of those guys may choose to leave instead of playing for a rebuild. Hell, even if Manning comes back they are probably going to need to redesign the team to focus on the run and the defense anyway, so a guy like Demaryius Thomas might choose to seek a role elsewhere anyway. If you focus more on the run, does that let you live better with Julius Thomas' horrible pass pro work?
The Manning question seems to hinge on (a) who is coaching; (b) whether or not his bad play was truly due to the leg injury that can be expected to heal; (c) whether or not he is up for coming back into a run-first offense; and (d) if he is up for that, will he take a pay cut so that the team has room to overpay some guys to stick around?
Regardless of all that, the writing is clearly on the wall that Denver cannot go into next year expecting to run the same type of offense that it did in 2012 and 2013. That experiment was a ton of fun and Manning almost got us a ring, but it's over.
Regardless of whether Manning returns or retires (or is cut), IMO Denver should transition fully to a run-first offense and do whatever they can to further boost the defense. Manning is not gonna get through 4 months of high-flying pass attacks any more and neither is whomever take the snaps should he be done. For me, that should be Elway's driving purpose this offseason and should inform the decisions on the coaches and roster.
There's a big part of me that thinks Elway should fire John Fox and the coordinators today. Fox is a super great guy and all that shit, but he and Del Rio/Gase suck so much at making in-game adjustments to win games. It's so disheartening to watch them stick to their game plans over and over when they're not working. Many times over the last 3 years Manning was able to make something happen to overcome that shitty coaching, but his days of being able to do that consistently seem long gone. [NOTE: I don't think Elway will fire Fox with so many question marks about what happens next - see below for those.]
The obviously huge next factor is the need to decide what you do with Manning. His game has never really been about trickery or complicated plays. He has flourished with a relatively simple offense that allowed him to have 3-4 reads at all times that he could hit with his excellent timing instincts and precision. If his body can't make the timing work, he's either got to rework his game or he's toast. So was the leg injury the culprit or just a part of age-related struggle? Can the guy make it through 19 weeks of quality football any more? Is he worth $19M of your cap? Would he be willing to restructure to take a smaller cap-hit with the full understanding that the offense will need to focus on the running game much more? Is Manning going to demand that the coaches stay in order to return (coaching changes have been something he has mentioned as a possible factor)? Just what the fuck is a Brock Osweiler, anyway? Can Osweiler and a Matt Schaub-type warm body be the game managers of a run-first offense?
The third step is to figure out how Manning's situation will impact the rest of the roster. The defense is in pretty good shape with the potential to improve via FA and the draft without too much effort. The O-Line was a shit-show this season and must be redone (but do you build a pass-pro line or a run-blocking road grater line?). The big free agents (both Thomases, Knighton, Franklin, Welker) will certainly be impacted by who will be under center. Unless they overpay them, many of those guys may choose to leave instead of playing for a rebuild. Hell, even if Manning comes back they are probably going to need to redesign the team to focus on the run and the defense anyway, so a guy like Demaryius Thomas might choose to seek a role elsewhere anyway. If you focus more on the run, does that let you live better with Julius Thomas' horrible pass pro work?
The Manning question seems to hinge on (a) who is coaching; (b) whether or not his bad play was truly due to the leg injury that can be expected to heal; (c) whether or not he is up for coming back into a run-first offense; and (d) if he is up for that, will he take a pay cut so that the team has room to overpay some guys to stick around?
Regardless of all that, the writing is clearly on the wall that Denver cannot go into next year expecting to run the same type of offense that it did in 2012 and 2013. That experiment was a ton of fun and Manning almost got us a ring, but it's over.
DrewDawg said:
I have no idea. The obvious answer being "Manning made him look good".
Any team that hires him, IMO, will be looking for a new coach in 2017.
jsinger121 said:
Of course "torn" can mean a lot of things, as we know. It also doesn't account for his shitty play the month before that.
Based on his comments last night when he repeated that he was healthy other than the leg thing... I suspect he's fully aware that age is as big a part of his struggle as a tear in he thigh muscle.
This is what i'm wondering, too. How willing are "worthy" FA targets going to be to come to place where they'll see their targets limitied?86spike said:
The problem with firing Fox and other coaches is that, if the team wants to keep Manning, it might encourage him to hang 'em up.
IMO, part of the problem is that Manning effectively runs the offense, coaches be damned. So if the Broncos fire the coaches that allow him to get away with that (and, likely, encourage it), I don't think he's going to stick around to be told what to do and feel like a fool during his last go-round.
I don't think they can shift away from a Manning First offense without either A) Manning admitting to himself that he isn't that good anymore (which I don't see happening, frankly, a la Brett Favre), or B) dumping Manning.
From the Broncos POV, analogy wise, it's closer to Kobe Bryant than Derek Jeter.
IMO, part of the problem is that Manning effectively runs the offense, coaches be damned. So if the Broncos fire the coaches that allow him to get away with that (and, likely, encourage it), I don't think he's going to stick around to be told what to do and feel like a fool during his last go-round.
I don't think they can shift away from a Manning First offense without either A) Manning admitting to himself that he isn't that good anymore (which I don't see happening, frankly, a la Brett Favre), or B) dumping Manning.
From the Broncos POV, analogy wise, it's closer to Kobe Bryant than Derek Jeter.
I can think of 4 things that would be affecting Manning: 1 In Season Injury, 2 Fathertime, 3 Wearing down as the season goes on and 4 Inability to throw in the cold. I think 3 & 4 are the biggest factors in what we see towards the end of seasons with him and #4 is a big factor because I believe the speculation that the neck injury has really affected the feeling he has in his right hand.
I hope he retires because I find it painful watching athletes who were once great play too long and look like a shell of themselves which is clearly the path Manning is on.
I hope he retires because I find it painful watching athletes who were once great play too long and look like a shell of themselves which is clearly the path Manning is on.
Yeah, I see the Patriot argument obviously, I see the Green Bay argument (although career value will be tough given he sat behind Favre), and I can see a Luck argument, and if we're talking about Peyton next year, yeah, he might be done, but on a career basis: Eli? Joe Flacco? Come on now.Papelbon's Poutine said:
jsinger121 said:
There's the Peyton we know and love--anonymously offering up an excuse for his play was bad through the media after doing a whole no excuses/I take accountability press conference yesterday.
If Peyton truly played the last 6 games with a torn quad, why wasn't he on the injury report? There's been a lot of talk the last 2 days about rules, let's see if the national media asks the question.
Also, Fox is an idiot for playing manning in those last 2 games vs Cincy and Oakland. They could have given Manning an entire month off to rest and heal up instead.
Also, Fox is an idiot for playing manning in those last 2 games vs Cincy and Oakland. They could have given Manning an entire month off to rest and heal up instead.
Why when Peyton was asked after the game if he was playing with any injuries does he only mentioned the thigh bruise. Something sounds fishy about this "torn quad".lostjumper said:
We had this with Brady one season where he wasn't on the injury report (or had the troll injury reports, can't remember) and then his teammates came out after the season saying how injured he really was and how tough he was playing through it (I want to say it was 2003 and they were playing McNair and the media was making a big thing about how he was toughing it out through an injury)
Sort of tough to sit him completely against Oakland if they thought an extra week off would help his injury, but if three complete weeks off would have helped heal the injury it probably would have been the right call. Then again, the poor play predated the injury.
Sort of tough to sit him completely against Oakland if they thought an extra week off would help his injury, but if three complete weeks off would have helped heal the injury it probably would have been the right call. Then again, the poor play predated the injury.
So did he suddenly get old after the first drive, or was the typical Manning not playing well in the playoffs?TheoShmeo said:
Anyway, the point of my post wasn't to defend Peyton, it was to give the Indy defense some credit wrt next weeks game. I really don't care what people think about Manning and IMO my post being moved to this thread my the mod was a mistake.
Best case might be an injury in game 1 that takes 8 weeks to fully heal.
Bets of both worlds....You see what the backup has.....and as fresh as possible Manning for the stretch.
Does that get them into the playoffs? Who knows.....but yea they need to do something to limit the wear and tear on him now.
I take no pleasure in this cause we are 1-2-3 maybe 4 years from a similar fate.
Bets of both worlds....You see what the backup has.....and as fresh as possible Manning for the stretch.
Does that get them into the playoffs? Who knows.....but yea they need to do something to limit the wear and tear on him now.
I take no pleasure in this cause we are 1-2-3 maybe 4 years from a similar fate.
I just don't see how the "torn quad" could be at the root of his struggles given what I see on the field yesterday. Peyton just didn't look like a guy whose arm was fine but who couldn't step into throws or get anything on the ball because his leg was hurting. Look at the tape, especially the "Overthrows" segment starting at 2:30. His footwork in the pocket is OK, he's fully stepping into throws, and he's tossing inaccurate ducks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLyysmmGwc8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLyysmmGwc8
I saw Phillip Rivers play much better than that against a better team, on the road, with a torn ACL. Spare me the excuses.
He got hit square in the legs right about then (thought it was a low hit) and didn't look the same after that. It would coincide with a torn quad and an inability to drive through his legs after thatphenweigh said:
I'm not saying it's a more serious injury, but the idea that this injury had no impact on him is laughable (and I know you're not necessarily saying that). I don't really care what Phillip Rivers did. If you watched the games, there has clearly been something wrong with Peyton physically. He has had nothing on his throws, and has been unable to make routine passes.rodderick said:
The last half of the season, however, he seems to have made a lot of mental mistakes. A lot of the throws in the Cincinnati game were awful decisions. I'm not sure if there is a correlation with the injury and his mental mistakes.