The Moops got LeBron winning the MVP leading the Lakers to another play in! Fuck you Joker you hack
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- Thread starter TomRicardo
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If Jaylen Brown, who is the 2nd, sometimes 3rd option on the C's and has comparable numbers to DeRozan right now, were on the Bulls instead of DeRozan, I believe he'd be in play for scoring leader in the NBA.
And he plays defense.
This DeRozan love is bordering on crazy around here. He's a good offensive player on a bad basketball team. That's what he is.
Just for clarification, my post was dripping sarcasm.
DeMar DeRozan is to the NBA what Pumpkin Spice Latte is to morning drinks. 100x Empty Calories
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LhEf6hWAIE
What the fuck are you talking about?
You listed 27 guys (Brunson, Mitchell, Harden, Booker, Haliburton, Sabonis, Butler, Markkanen, Maxey, KAT, Curry, Anthony Edwards, Porzingis, Chet, Sengun, Zion, Paul George, Scottie Barnes, Paul George, Jaylen Brown, Kyrie Irving, Jared Allen, Lilliard, DeRozan, Gobert, Bam, Trae Young) who you said were in the "same tier" as Lebron. Half those guys are in no way in the same tier as Lebron. I get that you don't want to put him in the top 15, but can't you just for a moment recognize you are on an island with just a few other folks in that thinking? And if he is not top 15, he is pretty damn close and not in the same tier as folks like Allen and Derozan and Scottie fucking Barnes?
I didn't say it's the end all and be all. you're the one who brought up how the team performs with him on or off the court and I'm saying going down that road doesn't support your case
as to why the Lakers are 30-26, as I mentioned there's an easy explanation which is they are giving big minutes to guys who just aren't very good like Reddish Hachimura Prince etc. it's not a new idea that a basketball player can be very very good and yet not have team success.
Do you want to sub divide the tier? I put 25 guys and said he isn't in the top 20%. I clearly said this is the all star/max contract tier. 1 on a shit team / 2 on a good team / 2- 3 on a championship caliber team. There is a range of talent in that group but is a clear way to divide the role and talent pool. They get paid the same and would be spoken about in the same manner in roster construction.
You don't believe Anthony Davis is a 1A and you think LeBron is on the Tatum, Kawhi, Durant, and Luka level of quality and said it is laughable to think Tatum, Luka, Durant, and Kawhi are a level above LeBron. Pretty sure you are the only one on that island Chuckles.
If you want to say Davis isn't at the level the rest of Alphas are, ok. I disagree but the Lakers are play in team it is ok to look at it and say look "Davis isn't there this season." But if you want to say LeBron is there, how do the Lakers suck so bad? They aren't complete devoid of NBA talent outside of Davis and LeBron.
There are 27 guys in that list. Lebron is better than at least half no question. Anyway, you clearly think Lebron sucks so there is probably no reason to continue yelling at each other
Why are you exact with half the sentence and not with the other half? At least you have LeBron's regular season consistency.
My thesis - LeBron is not a top 15 player in the regular season this year.
Your response - YOU DUMBASS HE IS A TOP TEN PLAYER
Response - No, he isn't even better then one of his teammates Anthony Davis on a .500 team
Your response - *SMASHES CLOWN MAKE UP ON YOUR FACE* LEBRON HAS HAD A BETTER SEASON THAN ANTHONY DAVIS
Response - Well no but ok. Here are eight players that no one can argue LeBron is playing with this season and here are 27 other guys who are playing below these guys but in the max contract / really good space. In order to be a top 15 player LeBron has to be better than all but 6 of these guys which is hard to imagine with the performance of the Lakers.
Your response - A lot of these guys suck. LeBron is better than half of these jokes hence top 15.
And Math wept.
:yawn:
My response was Lebron is no question better than 1/2 those guys. I can see some debate with the other guys, hence why I wouldn't include without question.
So to sum, yes, I think Lebron is a borderline top 10 guy this year.
Why?
Here is the problem. I can't see it. Win Shares says no, LEBRON says no. Lakers record says no.
So I put it like this, I think everyone can agree LeBron isn't an MVP candidate or a guy who can muscle a team to 50 wins in the regular season. Here are bunch of guys at the next level down, the max contract guys. If you are saying hey these guys are sort of fungible so year all things being equal so you think LeBron floats to the top 20% of these guys.
Then you said fuck no to that thesis. So you either think LeBron is an MVP candidate or he is still a guy that can muscle a team to first round home team advantage and Anthony Davis is holding him back? Nothing supports that other than your own conviction and ESPN pleading with people to watch cable.
Borderline Top 10 player. Are you saying is playing better Durant? Better than Mitchell? Haliburton? Brunson?
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Well for one, he is putting up 25/7/8 on 61% true shooting. Your boy Demar is putting up 23/4/5 on 57% true shooting. Yet somehow one of those guys deserves to be top 15 and the other doesn't
Where LeBron ranks in the NBA (qualified players):
Points: #16 (24.8)
FG%: #35 (.520)
3ptFG%: #57 (.395)
eFG%: #41 (.579)
Rebounds: #33 (7.2)
Assists: #8 (7.8)
Steals: #13 (1.3)
Win Shares: #34 (5.0)
Box +/-: #10 (5.8)
PER: #17 (22.4)
VORP: #11 (3.4)
Pts/36: #19 (25.6)
Reb/36: #75 (7.4)
Assists: #10 (8.0)
Make of all this what you will.
Points: #16 (24.8)
FG%: #35 (.520)
3ptFG%: #57 (.395)
eFG%: #41 (.579)
Rebounds: #33 (7.2)
Assists: #8 (7.8)
Steals: #13 (1.3)
Win Shares: #34 (5.0)
Box +/-: #10 (5.8)
PER: #17 (22.4)
VORP: #11 (3.4)
Pts/36: #19 (25.6)
Reb/36: #75 (7.4)
Assists: #10 (8.0)
Make of all this what you will.
Ok. so you are looking at pt/assists/rebounds per game and TS%. No defense hence no win shares or LEBRON, gotcha.
So LeBron is 16th points per a game / 33rd in Rebounds / 8th in assists. His TS% is 53rd in the league.
Anthony Davis 24.9/12.2/3.8 with 61.7% and according to you is worse. So I guess the assists are the real driver of value?
I had AD on third team and Lebron on 2nd. Maybe I should flip them. You are taking this very seriously
I think LeBron is simultaneously underrated and overrated at the same time and it drives me nuts.
I think he has so good for so long but in historical sense this season is absolutely bonkers where in a year to year LeBron / Lakers being competitive it is underwhelming. I think it is insane how they expect LeBron to perform. While I think he is a huge problem on their transition defense, it is like no shit, he is 39, playing wing and distributor in positionless basketball.
Not enough is being made of how utterly bat shit insane the Lakers plan was. I get it almost worked last year but LeBron is about 10% less than he was last year (he sat more). LeBron should be load managed like KP right now.
Treating LeBron like his Luka or Tatum or Mitchell is beyond the pale insane for Lakers. They need shooters to spread the floor when he is on, and defense grinders on the floor when LeBron is off. Instead they are trying to create a defensive identity which means asking more and more of a LeBron that can't deliver to the degree he did before he was getting targeted AARP commercials.
How did they miss on grabbing Gordon Hayward for TradeBait Russell, Prince, and a member of the clown car with a second or two? At least it gives some someone who can carry some of the load and let you sit LeBron for lesser games.
Edit - The LeBron "Expendables 3" is painful to watch. LeBron knows he deserves better. Yet instead of crying elder abuse people are pretending it is same old LeBron! How long before LeBron just hits a mic and says "I am getting to old for this shit". There is a non zero chance LeBron just walks out of CryptoScam Arena one night and enters the desert like Paul Atredies never to be heard from again.
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Wanted to take a look at some of these Adv Metric lists and just realized VORP (BPM also) align with my thoughts
13 of the top 14 VORP players are on my TOP 15 All-NBA Players (Embiid is eliminated).
Missed Sabonis at #5 on VORP
Edwards (#19) & Booker (#29) were the 2 outside. They were also on the outside when I looked at BPM.
Maybe I need to re-think Booker
Gobert (#44) & DeMar DeRozan (#46) were my 2 biggest pushbacks on the lists around here. This pretty much confirms it.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2024_advanced.html#advanced_stats::vorp
gobert is always going to be shortchanged by box score metrics because so much of his impact is the shots guys never take or reducing the efficiency of ones they do.
Another random oblique reminder of how better then league is than 20 years ago: 2003-2004 MVP ballot results
Yikes! Includes Jermaine O'Neal (3), Peja Stojakovic (4), Ben Wallace (7), 19-year-old rookie LeBron (9), Sam Cassell (10), Andrei Kirilenko (13) and Michael Redd (3-way tie for 14, so basically top-16). Think how many NBA players you have to go through now to get to someone who isn't better than Michael Redd.
The All-NBA first team is slightly more respectable because they put Kobe and Shaq ahead of O'Neal and Peja. But the three teams together include all the guys above, minus Kirilenko and young LeBron.
Yikes! Includes Jermaine O'Neal (3), Peja Stojakovic (4), Ben Wallace (7), 19-year-old rookie LeBron (9), Sam Cassell (10), Andrei Kirilenko (13) and Michael Redd (3-way tie for 14, so basically top-16). Think how many NBA players you have to go through now to get to someone who isn't better than Michael Redd.
The All-NBA first team is slightly more respectable because they put Kobe and Shaq ahead of O'Neal and Peja. But the three teams together include all the guys above, minus Kirilenko and young LeBron.
BIGs also inflate their box score metrics by hanging in the dunker's spot, taking lay-ups & clogging the lane. Just look at ORtg
| 1. | Onyeka Okongwu • ATL | 138.3 |
| 2. | Daniel Gafford • TOT | 137.0 |
| 3. | Isaiah Hartenstein • NYK | 134.1 |
| 4. | Mike Conley • MIN | 133.9 |
| 5. | Ivica Zubac • LAC | 133.1 |
| 6. | Tyrese Haliburton • IND | 132.5 |
| 7. | Jarrett Allen • CLE | 132.0 |
| 8. | Clint Capela • ATL | 131.8 |
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You realize we are all stuck reading your posts and know the above is violently untrue, right?
Wow I did not expect to see Mike Conley that high. I know he’s playing great but still
I don’t know if you guys are picking positionally or not but I’ll separate my Top-15 positionless into 3 groups of 5. My Top-6 are pretty much inseparable so it was like a coinflip to move one onto the 2nd Team. Don’t even debate it bc I’ll simply agree and replace them with any of the other 5.
Tatum
Kawhi
SGA
Jokic
Giannis
Luka
Embiid
Curry
Harden
LeBron
Wemby
Haliburton
Brunson
Mitchell
Durant/Booker
Just missed: Edwards, Banchero, Porzingis/Jaylen.
Tatum
Kawhi
SGA
Jokic
Giannis
Luka
Embiid
Curry
Harden
LeBron
Wemby
Haliburton
Brunson
Mitchell
Durant/Booker
Just missed: Edwards, Banchero, Porzingis/Jaylen.
The Bulls are 26th in points scored per game and 12th in points allowed. For points per 100 possessions, it’s 20th and 16th. The Bulls are overachieving, for sure, but it’s driven more by defense than offense. I haven’t watched the Bulls much, but I’d be surprised if DeRozan was a key defensive piece for them — he’s not a turnstile, but I’ve always seen DeRozan as an average defender at best.
I know WS isn’t the be all end all, but it’s a nice start. Jermaine and Redd would have ranked 7th and 8th in last year’s MVP race in terms of WS. They were very good that year.
Win shares should in theory be the same every year, since someone has to win the games.