The Moops got LeBron winning the MVP leading the Lakers to another play in! Fuck you Joker you hack
If Jaylen Brown, who is the 2nd, sometimes 3rd option on the C's and has comparable numbers to DeRozan right now, were on the Bulls instead of DeRozan, I believe he'd be in play for scoring leader in the NBA.God damn, we open with the Bulls tomorrow
DeMar DeRozan will make all you doubters pay with his mid-range madness.
Just for clarification, my post was dripping sarcasm.If Jaylen Brown, who is the 2nd, sometimes 3rd option on the C's and has comparable numbers to DeRozan right now, were on the Bulls instead of DeRozan, I believe he'd be in play for scoring leader in the NBA.
And he plays defense.
This DeRozan love is bordering on crazy around here. He's a good offensive player on a bad basketball team. That's what he is.
Oh I got you, I was just jumping off your post.Just for clarification, my post was dripping sarcasm.
DeMar DeRozan is to the NBA what Pumpkin Spice Latte is to morning drinks. 100x Empty Calories
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LhEf6hWAIE
What the fuck are you talking about?The Moops got LeBron winning the MVP leading the Lakers to another play in! Fuck you Joker you hack
I didn't say it's the end all and be all. you're the one who brought up how the team performs with him on or off the court and I'm saying going down that road doesn't support your caseHe is wanting to more and more. Advanced stats do not take in account lack of defensive effort on an individudals. They measure the defensive output of the team when a player is on the court and when he is not. The idea is effort should be fairly consistent that is not event dependent say like a 39 YO player not feeling it. When slamminsammya is running around feeling super embolden by RPM numbers as end all be all my question is why does the advanced stats not match up to the team record. Why is the team performing better when LeBron doesn't play at all? If you want say small size, LeBron typically sits out against better opponents on the back end of road trips back to backs. If anything the Lakers should be a lot worse when LeBron is out instead of the 4-3 with a positive net rating they are.
My argument is LeBron's inconsistent effort, because expecting 39 YO to perform at an elite level consistently is insane, leads to poor team performance which is advanced stats mask. Everyone else having to max effort because LeBron does not play transition defense unless he is pissed drains everyone. LeBron is playing Jimmy Butler's game nowadays to a greater degree because once again he is 39 years old.
In his world, I believe this is called the Derozan Singularityit's not a new idea that a basketball player can be very very good and yet not have team success.
Do you want to sub divide the tier? I put 25 guys and said he isn't in the top 20%. I clearly said this is the all star/max contract tier. 1 on a shit team / 2 on a good team / 2- 3 on a championship caliber team. There is a range of talent in that group but is a clear way to divide the role and talent pool. They get paid the same and would be spoken about in the same manner in roster construction.What the fuck are you talking about?
You listed 27 guys (Brunson, Mitchell, Harden, Booker, Haliburton, Sabonis, Butler, Markkanen, Maxey, KAT, Curry, Anthony Edwards, Porzingis, Chet, Sengun, Zion, Paul George, Scottie Barnes, Paul George, Jaylen Brown, Kyrie Irving, Jared Allen, Lilliard, DeRozan, Gobert, Bam, Trae Young) who you said were in the "same tier" as Lebron. Half those guys are in no way in the same tier as Lebron. I get that you don't want to put him in the top 15, but can't you just for a moment recognize you are on an island with just a few other folks in that thinking? And if he is not top 15, he is pretty damn close and not in the same tier as folks like Allen and Derozan and Scottie fucking Barnes?
There are 27 guys in that list. Lebron is better than at least half no question. Anyway, you clearly think Lebron sucks so there is probably no reason to continue yelling at each otherDo you want to sub divide the tier? I put 25 guys and said he isn't in the top 20%.
Why are you exact with half the sentence and not with the other half? At least you have LeBron's regular season consistency.There are 27 guys in that list. Lebron is better than at least half no question. Anyway, you clearly think Lebron sucks so there is probably no reason to continue yelling at each other
:yawn:Your response - A lot of these guys suck. LeBron is better than half of these jokes hence top 15.
Why?:yawn:
My response was Lebron is no question better than 1/2 those guys. I can see some debate with the other guys, hence why I wouldn't include without question.
So to sum, yes, I think Lebron is a borderline top 10 guy this year.
Well for one, he is putting up 25/7/8 on 61% true shooting. Your boy Demar is putting up 23/4/5 on 57% true shooting. Yet somehow one of those guys deserves to be top 15 and the other doesn'tWhy?
EPM has Lebron 11. BPM 10th. VORP 13th. PIE 9th. DARKO 12thWin Shares says no, LEBRON says no.
Ok. so you are looking at pt/assists/rebounds per game and TS%. No defense hence no win shares or LEBRON, gotcha.Well for one, he is putting up 25/7/8 on 61% true shooting. Your boy Demar is putting up 23/4/5 on 57% true shooting. Yet somehow one of those guys deserves to be top 15 and the other doesn't
15th/16th in LEBRONEPM has Lebron 11. BPM 10th. VORP 13th. PIE 9th. DARKO 12th
I had AD on third team and Lebron on 2nd. Maybe I should flip them. You are taking this very seriouslyAnthony Davis 24.9/12.2/3.8 with 61.7% and according to you is worse. So I guess the assists are the real driver of value?
I think LeBron is simultaneously underrated and overrated at the same time and it drives me nuts.I had AD on third team and Lebron on 2nd. Maybe I should flip them. You are taking this very seriously
Wanted to take a look at some of these Adv Metric lists and just realized VORP (BPM also) align with my thoughtsTOP 15 All-NBA Players
Joker
Giannis
SGA
Luka
Tatum
Kawhi
Haliburton
KD
Bron
Curry
Edwards
Mitchell
Brunson
Davis
Booker
Scratching my head on Gobert & DeRozan, wouldn't even put them in my TOP 30.
Rudy will win DPOY, but starting next year it will be called the WEMBY Award for the next decade
gobert is always going to be shortchanged by box score metrics because so much of his impact is the shots guys never take or reducing the efficiency of ones they do.Wanted to take a look at some of these Adv Metric lists and just realized VORP (BPM also) align with my thoughts
13 of the top 14 VORP players are on my TOP 15 All-NBA Players (Embiid is eliminated).
Missed Sabonis at #5 on VORP
Edwards (#19) & Booker (#29) were the 2 outside. They were also on the outside when I looked at BPM.
Maybe I need to re-think Booker
Gobert (#44) & DeMar DeRozan (#46) were my 2 biggest pushbacks on the lists around here. This pretty much confirms it.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2024_advanced.html#advanced_stats::vorp
BIGs also inflate their box score metrics by hanging in the dunker's spot, taking lay-ups & clogging the lane. Just look at ORtggobert is always going to be shortchanged by box score metrics because so much of his impact is the shots guys never take or reducing the efficiency of ones they do.
1. | Onyeka Okongwu • ATL | 138.3 |
2. | Daniel Gafford • TOT | 137.0 |
3. | Isaiah Hartenstein • NYK | 134.1 |
4. | Mike Conley • MIN | 133.9 |
5. | Ivica Zubac • LAC | 133.1 |
6. | Tyrese Haliburton • IND | 132.5 |
7. | Jarrett Allen • CLE | 132.0 |
8. | Clint Capela • ATL | 131.8 |
You realize we are all stuck reading your posts and know the above is violently untrue, right?Why are you exact with half the sentence and not with the other half? At least you have LeBron's regular season consistency.
My thesis - LeBron is not a top 15 player in the regular season this year.
Your response - YOU DUMBASS HE IS A TOP TEN PLAYER
Response - No, he isn't even better then one of his teammates Anthony Davis on a .500 team
Your response - *SMASHES CLOWN MAKE UP ON YOUR FACE* LEBRON HAS HAD A BETTER SEASON THAN ANTHONY DAVIS
Response - Well no but ok. Here are eight players that no one can argue LeBron is playing with this season and here are 27 other guys who are playing below these guys but in the max contract / really good space. In order to be a top 15 player LeBron has to be better than all but 6 of these guys which is hard to imagine with the performance of the Lakers.
Your response - A lot of these guys suck. LeBron is better than half of these jokes hence top 15.
And Math wept.
Wow I did not expect to see Mike Conley that high. I know he’s playing great but stillBIGs also inflate their box score metrics by hanging in the dunker's spot, taking lay-ups & clogging the lane. Just look at ORtg
1. Onyeka Okongwu • ATL 138.3 2. Daniel Gafford • TOT 137.0 3. Isaiah Hartenstein • NYK 134.1 4. Mike Conley • MIN 133.9 5. Ivica Zubac • LAC 133.1 6. Tyrese Haliburton • IND 132.5 7. Jarrett Allen • CLE 132.0 8. Clint Capela • ATL 131.8
You can always go back to editting your gamethread posts post game.You realize we are all stuck reading your posts and know the above is violently untrue, right?
The Bulls are 26th in points scored per game and 12th in points allowed. For points per 100 possessions, it’s 20th and 16th. The Bulls are overachieving, for sure, but it’s driven more by defense than offense. I haven’t watched the Bulls much, but I’d be surprised if DeRozan was a key defensive piece for them — he’s not a turnstile, but I’ve always seen DeRozan as an average defender at best.I think my main DeRozan argument is Chicago without DeRozan is in the running for the First Pick with the Wizards and Pistons. He is probably worth a 25-35 game swing for the Bulls. I can't think of another player like that in the NBA besides Jokic, Giannis. and maybe Luka or Davis. Everyone else plays with reasonable enough cast where could at at least float in the 10-20 range.
I know WS isn’t the be all end all, but it’s a nice start. Jermaine and Redd would have ranked 7th and 8th in last year’s MVP race in terms of WS. They were very good that year.Another random oblique reminder of how better then league is than 20 years ago: 2003-2004 MVP ballot results
Yikes! Includes Jermaine O'Neal (3), Peja Stojakovic (4), Ben Wallace (7), 19-year-old rookie LeBron (9), Sam Cassell (10), Andrei Kirilenko (13) and Michael Redd (3-way tie for 14, so basically top-16). Think how many NBA players you have to go through now to get to someone who isn't better than Michael Redd.
The All-NBA first team is slightly more respectable because they put Kobe and Shaq ahead of O'Neal and Peja. But the three teams together include all the guys above, minus Kirilenko and young LeBron.
Win shares should in theory be the same every year, since someone has to win the games.I know WS isn’t the be all end all, but it’s a nice start. Jermaine and Redd would have ranked 7th and 8th in last year’s MVP race in terms of WS. They were very good that year.