All NBA Teams so far

TomRicardo

rusty cohlebone
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Feb 6, 2006
21,046
Row 14
The Moops got LeBron winning the MVP leading the Lakers to another play in! Fuck you Joker you hack
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2005
42,329
God damn, we open with the Bulls tomorrow

DeMar DeRozan will make all you doubters pay with his mid-range madness.
If Jaylen Brown, who is the 2nd, sometimes 3rd option on the C's and has comparable numbers to DeRozan right now, were on the Bulls instead of DeRozan, I believe he'd be in play for scoring leader in the NBA.

And he plays defense.

This DeRozan love is bordering on crazy around here. He's a good offensive player on a bad basketball team. That's what he is.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
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Nov 2, 2007
20,871
Santa Monica
If Jaylen Brown, who is the 2nd, sometimes 3rd option on the C's and has comparable numbers to DeRozan right now, were on the Bulls instead of DeRozan, I believe he'd be in play for scoring leader in the NBA.

And he plays defense.

This DeRozan love is bordering on crazy around here. He's a good offensive player on a bad basketball team. That's what he is.
Just for clarification, my post was dripping sarcasm.

DeMar DeRozan is to the NBA what Pumpkin Spice Latte is to morning drinks. 100x Empty Calories

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LhEf6hWAIE
 

the moops

Member
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Jan 19, 2016
4,974
Saint Paul, MN
The Moops got LeBron winning the MVP leading the Lakers to another play in! Fuck you Joker you hack
What the fuck are you talking about?

You listed 27 guys (Brunson, Mitchell, Harden, Booker, Haliburton, Sabonis, Butler, Markkanen, Maxey, KAT, Curry, Anthony Edwards, Porzingis, Chet, Sengun, Zion, Paul George, Scottie Barnes, Paul George, Jaylen Brown, Kyrie Irving, Jared Allen, Lilliard, DeRozan, Gobert, Bam, Trae Young) who you said were in the "same tier" as Lebron. Half those guys are in no way in the same tier as Lebron. I get that you don't want to put him in the top 15, but can't you just for a moment recognize you are on an island with just a few other folks in that thinking? And if he is not top 15, he is pretty damn close and not in the same tier as folks like Allen and Derozan and Scottie fucking Barnes?
 

slamminsammya

Member
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Jul 31, 2006
10,211
San Francisco
He is wanting to more and more. Advanced stats do not take in account lack of defensive effort on an individudals. They measure the defensive output of the team when a player is on the court and when he is not. The idea is effort should be fairly consistent that is not event dependent say like a 39 YO player not feeling it. When slamminsammya is running around feeling super embolden by RPM numbers as end all be all my question is why does the advanced stats not match up to the team record. Why is the team performing better when LeBron doesn't play at all? If you want say small size, LeBron typically sits out against better opponents on the back end of road trips back to backs. If anything the Lakers should be a lot worse when LeBron is out instead of the 4-3 with a positive net rating they are.

My argument is LeBron's inconsistent effort, because expecting 39 YO to perform at an elite level consistently is insane, leads to poor team performance which is advanced stats mask. Everyone else having to max effort because LeBron does not play transition defense unless he is pissed drains everyone. LeBron is playing Jimmy Butler's game nowadays to a greater degree because once again he is 39 years old.
I didn't say it's the end all and be all. you're the one who brought up how the team performs with him on or off the court and I'm saying going down that road doesn't support your case

as to why the Lakers are 30-26, as I mentioned there's an easy explanation which is they are giving big minutes to guys who just aren't very good like Reddish Hachimura Prince etc. it's not a new idea that a basketball player can be very very good and yet not have team success.
 

TomRicardo

rusty cohlebone
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What the fuck are you talking about?

You listed 27 guys (Brunson, Mitchell, Harden, Booker, Haliburton, Sabonis, Butler, Markkanen, Maxey, KAT, Curry, Anthony Edwards, Porzingis, Chet, Sengun, Zion, Paul George, Scottie Barnes, Paul George, Jaylen Brown, Kyrie Irving, Jared Allen, Lilliard, DeRozan, Gobert, Bam, Trae Young) who you said were in the "same tier" as Lebron. Half those guys are in no way in the same tier as Lebron. I get that you don't want to put him in the top 15, but can't you just for a moment recognize you are on an island with just a few other folks in that thinking? And if he is not top 15, he is pretty damn close and not in the same tier as folks like Allen and Derozan and Scottie fucking Barnes?
Do you want to sub divide the tier? I put 25 guys and said he isn't in the top 20%. I clearly said this is the all star/max contract tier. 1 on a shit team / 2 on a good team / 2- 3 on a championship caliber team. There is a range of talent in that group but is a clear way to divide the role and talent pool. They get paid the same and would be spoken about in the same manner in roster construction.

You don't believe Anthony Davis is a 1A and you think LeBron is on the Tatum, Kawhi, Durant, and Luka level of quality and said it is laughable to think Tatum, Luka, Durant, and Kawhi are a level above LeBron. Pretty sure you are the only one on that island Chuckles.

If you want to say Davis isn't at the level the rest of Alphas are, ok. I disagree but the Lakers are play in team it is ok to look at it and say look "Davis isn't there this season." But if you want to say LeBron is there, how do the Lakers suck so bad? They aren't complete devoid of NBA talent outside of Davis and LeBron.
 

TomRicardo

rusty cohlebone
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There are 27 guys in that list. Lebron is better than at least half no question. Anyway, you clearly think Lebron sucks so there is probably no reason to continue yelling at each other
Why are you exact with half the sentence and not with the other half? At least you have LeBron's regular season consistency.

My thesis - LeBron is not a top 15 player in the regular season this year.
Your response - YOU DUMBASS HE IS A TOP TEN PLAYER
Response - No, he isn't even better then one of his teammates Anthony Davis on a .500 team
Your response - *SMASHES CLOWN MAKE UP ON YOUR FACE* LEBRON HAS HAD A BETTER SEASON THAN ANTHONY DAVIS
Response - Well no but ok. Here are eight players that no one can argue LeBron is playing with this season and here are 27 other guys who are playing below these guys but in the max contract / really good space. In order to be a top 15 player LeBron has to be better than all but 6 of these guys which is hard to imagine with the performance of the Lakers.
Your response - A lot of these guys suck. LeBron is better than half of these jokes hence top 15.

And Math wept.
 

the moops

Member
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Jan 19, 2016
4,974
Saint Paul, MN
Your response - A lot of these guys suck. LeBron is better than half of these jokes hence top 15.
:yawn:

My response was Lebron is no question better than 1/2 those guys. I can see some debate with the other guys, hence why I wouldn't include without question.

So to sum, yes, I think Lebron is a borderline top 10 guy this year.
 

TomRicardo

rusty cohlebone
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Feb 6, 2006
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Row 14
:yawn:

My response was Lebron is no question better than 1/2 those guys. I can see some debate with the other guys, hence why I wouldn't include without question.

So to sum, yes, I think Lebron is a borderline top 10 guy this year.
Why?

Here is the problem. I can't see it. Win Shares says no, LEBRON says no. Lakers record says no.

So I put it like this, I think everyone can agree LeBron isn't an MVP candidate or a guy who can muscle a team to 50 wins in the regular season. Here are bunch of guys at the next level down, the max contract guys. If you are saying hey these guys are sort of fungible so year all things being equal so you think LeBron floats to the top 20% of these guys.

Then you said fuck no to that thesis. So you either think LeBron is an MVP candidate or he is still a guy that can muscle a team to first round home team advantage and Anthony Davis is holding him back? Nothing supports that other than your own conviction and ESPN pleading with people to watch cable.

Borderline Top 10 player. Are you saying is playing better Durant? Better than Mitchell? Haliburton? Brunson?
 
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BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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Oct 1, 2015
25,221
Where LeBron ranks in the NBA (qualified players):

Points: #16 (24.8)
FG%: #35 (.520)
3ptFG%: #57 (.395)
eFG%: #41 (.579)
Rebounds: #33 (7.2)
Assists: #8 (7.8)
Steals: #13 (1.3)
Win Shares: #34 (5.0)
Box +/-: #10 (5.8)
PER: #17 (22.4)
VORP: #11 (3.4)
Pts/36: #19 (25.6)
Reb/36: #75 (7.4)
Assists: #10 (8.0)

Make of all this what you will.
 

TomRicardo

rusty cohlebone
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Well for one, he is putting up 25/7/8 on 61% true shooting. Your boy Demar is putting up 23/4/5 on 57% true shooting. Yet somehow one of those guys deserves to be top 15 and the other doesn't
Ok. so you are looking at pt/assists/rebounds per game and TS%. No defense hence no win shares or LEBRON, gotcha.

So LeBron is 16th points per a game / 33rd in Rebounds / 8th in assists. His TS% is 53rd in the league.

Anthony Davis 24.9/12.2/3.8 with 61.7% and according to you is worse. So I guess the assists are the real driver of value?
 

TomRicardo

rusty cohlebone
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Feb 6, 2006
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I had AD on third team and Lebron on 2nd. Maybe I should flip them. You are taking this very seriously
I think LeBron is simultaneously underrated and overrated at the same time and it drives me nuts.

I think he has so good for so long but in historical sense this season is absolutely bonkers where in a year to year LeBron / Lakers being competitive it is underwhelming. I think it is insane how they expect LeBron to perform. While I think he is a huge problem on their transition defense, it is like no shit, he is 39, playing wing and distributor in positionless basketball.

Not enough is being made of how utterly bat shit insane the Lakers plan was. I get it almost worked last year but LeBron is about 10% less than he was last year (he sat more). LeBron should be load managed like KP right now.

Treating LeBron like his Luka or Tatum or Mitchell is beyond the pale insane for Lakers. They need shooters to spread the floor when he is on, and defense grinders on the floor when LeBron is off. Instead they are trying to create a defensive identity which means asking more and more of a LeBron that can't deliver to the degree he did before he was getting targeted AARP commercials.

How did they miss on grabbing Gordon Hayward for TradeBait Russell, Prince, and a member of the clown car with a second or two? At least it gives some someone who can carry some of the load and let you sit LeBron for lesser games.

Edit - The LeBron "Expendables 3" is painful to watch. LeBron knows he deserves better. Yet instead of crying elder abuse people are pretending it is same old LeBron! How long before LeBron just hits a mic and says "I am getting to old for this shit". There is a non zero chance LeBron just walks out of CryptoScam Arena one night and enters the desert like Paul Atredies never to be heard from again.
 
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benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,871
Santa Monica
TOP 15 All-NBA Players
Joker
Giannis
SGA
Luka
Tatum
Kawhi
Haliburton
KD
Bron
Curry
Edwards
Mitchell
Brunson
Davis
Booker

Scratching my head on Gobert & DeRozan, wouldn't even put them in my TOP 30.

Rudy will win DPOY, but starting next year it will be called the WEMBY Award for the next decade
Wanted to take a look at some of these Adv Metric lists and just realized VORP (BPM also) align with my thoughts

13 of the top 14 VORP players are on my TOP 15 All-NBA Players (Embiid is eliminated).
Missed Sabonis at #5 on VORP

Edwards (#19) & Booker (#29) were the 2 outside. They were also on the outside when I looked at BPM.

Maybe I need to re-think Booker

Gobert (#44) & DeMar DeRozan (#46) were my 2 biggest pushbacks on the lists around here. This pretty much confirms it.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2024_advanced.html#advanced_stats::vorp
 

slamminsammya

Member
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Jul 31, 2006
10,211
San Francisco
Wanted to take a look at some of these Adv Metric lists and just realized VORP (BPM also) align with my thoughts

13 of the top 14 VORP players are on my TOP 15 All-NBA Players (Embiid is eliminated).
Missed Sabonis at #5 on VORP

Edwards (#19) & Booker (#29) were the 2 outside. They were also on the outside when I looked at BPM.

Maybe I need to re-think Booker

Gobert (#44) & DeMar DeRozan (#46) were my 2 biggest pushbacks on the lists around here. This pretty much confirms it.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2024_advanced.html#advanced_stats::vorp
gobert is always going to be shortchanged by box score metrics because so much of his impact is the shots guys never take or reducing the efficiency of ones they do.
 

m0ckduck

Member
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Jul 20, 2005
1,936
Another random oblique reminder of how better then league is than 20 years ago: 2003-2004 MVP ballot results

Yikes! Includes Jermaine O'Neal (3), Peja Stojakovic (4), Ben Wallace (7), 19-year-old rookie LeBron (9), Sam Cassell (10), Andrei Kirilenko (13) and Michael Redd (3-way tie for 14, so basically top-16). Think how many NBA players you have to go through now to get to someone who isn't better than Michael Redd.

The All-NBA first team is slightly more respectable because they put Kobe and Shaq ahead of O'Neal and Peja. But the three teams together include all the guys above, minus Kirilenko and young LeBron.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
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Nov 2, 2007
20,871
Santa Monica
gobert is always going to be shortchanged by box score metrics because so much of his impact is the shots guys never take or reducing the efficiency of ones they do.
BIGs also inflate their box score metrics by hanging in the dunker's spot, taking lay-ups & clogging the lane. Just look at ORtg

1. Onyeka Okongwu • ATL 138.3
2. Daniel Gafford • TOT 137.0
3. Isaiah Hartenstein • NYK 134.1
4. Mike Conley • MIN 133.9
5. Ivica Zubac • LAC 133.1
6. Tyrese Haliburton • IND 132.5
7. Jarrett Allen • CLE 132.0
8. Clint Capela • ATL 131.8
 
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PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
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Apr 17, 2003
32,312
Why are you exact with half the sentence and not with the other half? At least you have LeBron's regular season consistency.

My thesis - LeBron is not a top 15 player in the regular season this year.
Your response - YOU DUMBASS HE IS A TOP TEN PLAYER
Response - No, he isn't even better then one of his teammates Anthony Davis on a .500 team
Your response - *SMASHES CLOWN MAKE UP ON YOUR FACE* LEBRON HAS HAD A BETTER SEASON THAN ANTHONY DAVIS
Response - Well no but ok. Here are eight players that no one can argue LeBron is playing with this season and here are 27 other guys who are playing below these guys but in the max contract / really good space. In order to be a top 15 player LeBron has to be better than all but 6 of these guys which is hard to imagine with the performance of the Lakers.
Your response - A lot of these guys suck. LeBron is better than half of these jokes hence top 15.

And Math wept.
You realize we are all stuck reading your posts and know the above is violently untrue, right?
 

azsoxpatsfan

Does not enjoy the go
SoSH Member
May 23, 2014
4,844
BIGs also inflate their box score metrics by hanging in the dunker's spot, taking lay-ups & clogging the lane. Just look at ORtg

1. Onyeka Okongwu • ATL 138.3
2. Daniel Gafford • TOT 137.0
3. Isaiah Hartenstein • NYK 134.1
4. Mike Conley • MIN 133.9
5. Ivica Zubac • LAC 133.1
6. Tyrese Haliburton • IND 132.5
7. Jarrett Allen • CLE 132.0
8. Clint Capela • ATL 131.8
Wow I did not expect to see Mike Conley that high. I know he’s playing great but still
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
31,047
I don’t know if you guys are picking positionally or not but I’ll separate my Top-15 positionless into 3 groups of 5. My Top-6 are pretty much inseparable so it was like a coinflip to move one onto the 2nd Team. Don’t even debate it bc I’ll simply agree and replace them with any of the other 5.

Tatum
Kawhi
SGA
Jokic
Giannis

Luka
Embiid
Curry
Harden
LeBron

Wemby
Haliburton
Brunson
Mitchell
Durant/Booker

Just missed: Edwards, Banchero, Porzingis/Jaylen.
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
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Jun 22, 2008
36,342
I think my main DeRozan argument is Chicago without DeRozan is in the running for the First Pick with the Wizards and Pistons. He is probably worth a 25-35 game swing for the Bulls. I can't think of another player like that in the NBA besides Jokic, Giannis. and maybe Luka or Davis. Everyone else plays with reasonable enough cast where could at at least float in the 10-20 range.
The Bulls are 26th in points scored per game and 12th in points allowed. For points per 100 possessions, it’s 20th and 16th. The Bulls are overachieving, for sure, but it’s driven more by defense than offense. I haven’t watched the Bulls much, but I’d be surprised if DeRozan was a key defensive piece for them — he’s not a turnstile, but I’ve always seen DeRozan as an average defender at best.
 

PC Drunken Friar

Member
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Sep 12, 2003
14,816
South Boston
Another random oblique reminder of how better then league is than 20 years ago: 2003-2004 MVP ballot results

Yikes! Includes Jermaine O'Neal (3), Peja Stojakovic (4), Ben Wallace (7), 19-year-old rookie LeBron (9), Sam Cassell (10), Andrei Kirilenko (13) and Michael Redd (3-way tie for 14, so basically top-16). Think how many NBA players you have to go through now to get to someone who isn't better than Michael Redd.

The All-NBA first team is slightly more respectable because they put Kobe and Shaq ahead of O'Neal and Peja. But the three teams together include all the guys above, minus Kirilenko and young LeBron.
I know WS isn’t the be all end all, but it’s a nice start. Jermaine and Redd would have ranked 7th and 8th in last year’s MVP race in terms of WS. They were very good that year.