All NBA Teams so far

TomRicardo

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TOP 15 All-NBA Players
Joker
Giannis
SGA
Luka
Tatum
Kawhi
Haliburton
KD
Bron
Curry
Edwards
Mitchell
Brunson
Davis
Booker

Scratching my head on Gobert & DeRozan, wouldn't even put them in my TOP 30.

Rudy will win DPOY, but starting next year it will be called the WEMBY Award for the next decade
You have LeBron over Anthony Davis? Have you watched the Lakers this year at all?

Embiid is not a top 15 player but Haliburton and Booker are? What is your game line?

Curry is not playing as well as Mitchell this year. You have a ton of lifetime achievement awards with your rankings but you exclude Embiid which, dude I am not sure what you are doing here.
 

benhogan

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You have LeBron over Anthony Davis? Have you watched the Lakers this year at all?

Embiid is not a top 15 player but Haliburton and Booker are? What is your game line?

Curry is not playing as well as Mitchell this year. You have a ton of lifetime achievement awards with your rankings but you exclude Embiid which, dude I am not sure what you are doing here.
1. It's my All-NBA predictions list. I purposely put TOP15 because it's positionless.
I'm happy to do an end-of-season comp when they are announced.
2. Embiid does not make the 65-game cutoff, so he doesn't make Hogan's TOP 15 All-NBA list, but he is a top 5 player when healthy
3. Davis = Anthony Davis and he is on my list (see bottom)
4. Unfortunately I have been subjected to LA Lakers basketball.

I think a little less about shooting deficient Centers than most folks (and you).

Spreading the floor is crucial when the game slows down to a half-court slugfest in the playoffs. The game has been and will continue to go in a 3-point/5-wide direction. Someone like Rudy Gobert', whose defensive superpower is rim protection, becomes less impactful when he is dragged out to the perimeter. AND conversely becomes a lane clogger on the offensive end during crunch time. It's probably why he didn't make any TOP40 lists to open the season.
 

slamminsammya

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I literally did. LeBron not being a top ten player doesn't mean LeBron sucks. He is still top ten wing in the league. Also almost no one plays defense anymore. Scoring is way up which dilutes his scoring average.
sorry, I thought you were doing a prediction of all NBA which is different from ranking the best players right now.

I think there's a cohort after the top 8 or so where it becomes hard to differentiate guys. I think LeBron is in that group. maybe he isn't top 10 but I don't think that's at all obvious, and a lot of different metrics agree with me.
 

slamminsammya

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You have LeBron over Anthony Davis? Have you watched the Lakers this year at all?

Embiid is not a top 15 player but Haliburton and Booker are? What is your game line?

Curry is not playing as well as Mitchell this year. You have a ton of lifetime achievement awards with your rankings but you exclude Embiid which, dude I am not sure what you are doing here.
Curry is maybe the greatest latent impact player in NBA history (ie affects the game outside the box score stats). do you have any numbers to back the assertion that Mitchell is playing better? it might make a better conversation than making these pronouncements straight out.
 

TomRicardo

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1. It's my All-NBA predictions list. I purposely put TOP15 because it's positionless.
I'm happy to do an end-of-season comp when they are announced.
2. Embiid does not make the 65-game cutoff, so he doesn't make Hogan's TOP 15 All-NBA list, but he is a top 5 player when healthy
3. Davis = Anthony Davis and he is on my list (see bottom)
4. Unfortunately I have been subjected to LA Lakers basketball.

I think a little less about shooting deficient Centers than most folks (and you).

Spreading the floor is crucial when the game slows down to a half-court slugfest in the playoffs. The game has been and will continue to go in a 3-point/5-wide direction. Someone like Rudy Gobert', whose defensive superpower is rim protection, becomes less impactful when he is dragged out to the perimeter. AND conversely becomes a lane clogger on the offensive end during crunch time. It's probably why he didn't make any TOP40 lists to open the season.
I wasn't going for an predictions of ALL NBA here, just who is your ALL NBA team. There is no chance LeBron isn't getting the votes. ESPN would literally fire any writers that keep him off without prior approval to be yelled at by the other hosts (Perk I am looking at you). There isn't a chance the media would vote in Chet or DeRozan. I put DeRozan because for me a dude leading the league in minutes and putting up that kind of season on that shit a team is more impressive than LeBron crying about playing on a struggling play in team HE created. Chicago without DeRozan is in the basement with the Wizards and Detroit. The Lakers without LeBron falls behind the Rockets

Over the regular season I am heavily valuing defense because it is working. The Timberwolves are succeeding while the Bucks are struggling turning away from defense. The Celtics are running away because they actually play two way basketball. Playoff basketball has nothing to do with All NBA in my eyes. It is literally just a snap shot of the season of who provided the most value during it. Best ability is availability and leading to team wins is the key. Ant is the most skilled basketball player on the Timberwolves but KAT and Gobert have put up more value this season. They aren't going anywhere in the playoffs without Ant locking in.

There is no chance Haliburton make the game cut off. It would be insanely stupid for Haliburton to attempt it. Booker is not likely to make it though he could. That said Booker just got back together Kendall Jenner. Kardashians are like Basketball Kryptonite.
 

the moops

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I put DeRozan because for me a dude leading the league in minutes and putting up that kind of season on that shit a team is more impressive than LeBron crying about playing on a struggling play in team HE created
See this is where you lose people. Your bitching about Lebron has completely tainted your view. Derozan is nowhere near deserving. Have you thought that perhaps part of the reason why Chicago is a shit team is because of Derozan? He is having one of his least efficient shooting seasons, and his team is still better with him off the floor
 

Euclis20

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I might go all 5
If we're calling out who deserves to get picked (as opposed to who the voters might choose), I'd definitely pick all 5 starters over DeRozan. DeRozan deserves some credit for leading the league in both minutes and minutes per game at age 34 while still looking reasonably productive for a mediocre team, but he's not getting even an honorable mention in any all-NBA list, nor should he. The Ringer's recent ranking has him 57th best in the league right now, even that feels somewhat optimistic to me (all 5 Celtics starters were in the top 50).
 

TomRicardo

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If we're calling out who deserves to get picked (as opposed to who the voters might choose), I'd definitely pick all 5 starters over DeRozan. DeRozan deserves some credit for leading the league in both minutes and minutes per game at age 34 while still looking reasonably productive for a mediocre team, but he's not getting even an honorable mention in any all-NBA list, nor should he. The Ringer's recent ranking has him 57th best in the league right now, even that feels somewhat optimistic to me (all 5 Celtics starters were in the top 50).
I think my main DeRozan argument is Chicago without DeRozan is in the running for the First Pick with the Wizards and Pistons. He is probably worth a 25-35 game swing for the Bulls. I can't think of another player like that in the NBA besides Jokic, Giannis. and maybe Luka or Davis. Everyone else plays with reasonable enough cast where could at at least float in the 10-20 range.
 

DannyDarwinism

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To keep harping on Derozan... his career net +/- numbers are such an anomaly among All- Star caliber players, I had to do a bit of digging:

B-Ref has him at a - 2.1 net +/- per 100 possession for his career, and he's been negative in 13 out of his 15 seasons (he's - 3.2 this season). That just doesn't happen with good players.

In the past 10 years, 61 different players have made an All- Star game. Only 5 of those 61 players have career net plus-minus in the negative: Derozan, Julius Randle at -2.5 (absolutely brutal first three years are dragging him down), Zach LaVine at -3.5 (lol Bulls), D'Angelo Russell at -1.0*, and Jaylen at -0.6*

Only 4 of those 61 have a positive net +/- under 1.0 - Andre Drummond, Vucevic, Brandon Ingram and Dejounte Murray.

Another half dozen are positive but under 2.0- Carmelo, Joakim Noah, Roy Hibbert, Jeff Teague, Goran Dragic, Andrew Wiggins

The guys who are over 8.0 but less than 10 - Duncan, Dirk, Chris Paul, Draymond

Guys over 10.0- Lebron, Steph, Embiid, Jokic

*Looking at the numbers, if guys have negative seasons, it's typically in their first year or two, especially for guys who enter the league young, so the younger guys listed above (Jaylen, LaVine, DAR, Dejounte, Ingram) have had less time for their prime years to bump their numbers up. On the flip side, the numbers tank for guys who play past 35, so Lebron, Dirk, Duncan, CP3 are dinged relative to guys in their prime. Kobe was a significant negative in his first three and last three years.

So Derozan really is a huge outlier. If he's good, why are his teams almost always better when he doesn't play? I'll also note that he's been horrible in the playoffs- Has a career playoff TS% of 50.4, and his net +/- drops way down to - 11.0 (!!!). All that reads to me as a guy who's all sizzle no steak. Still, given his counting stats and accolades, he has a decent chance at the Hall of Fame. I wonder if there's any HoFers who's teams were better with them off the court.

Edit- whoops, left out this year, which adds Brunson and Scottie Barnes to the "slightly positive" list, and Banchero's a big negative, albeit still just 21.
 
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Euclis20

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I think my main DeRozan argument is Chicago without DeRozan is in the running for the First Pick with the Wizards and Pistons. He is probably worth a 25-35 game swing for the Bulls. I can't think of another player like that in the NBA besides Jokic, Giannis. and maybe Luka or Davis. Everyone else plays with reasonable enough cast where could at at least float in the 10-20 range.
You're operating under the assumption that Derozan is a very large net positive for the Bulls, despite the fact that they do much better with him on the bench (+1.2 points per 100) than with him on the court (-2.0 points per 100). 3.2 points per 100 is basically the difference this year's Magic (+0.8 per 100) and this year's Nets (-2.3 per 100). As noted above by Danny, this is hardly an unusual thing for him - his teams nearly always do better when he doesn't play. Compare this to the Lakers with Lebron - they fare far better with him on the court (+1.7 per 100) than on the bench (-3.8). The fact that his teammates are pretty mediocre should really help DeRozan in this regard, but he still can't pull off a positive net rating (someone like Jaylen struggles here, because when he's on the bench Tatum is usually in the game and Tatum has JB beat by a wide margin).

Not everyone loves net rating and there is a sample size issue with any partial (or even full) season, but when you have a negative net rating for your entire career, it's gonna raise some eyebrows.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I think my main DeRozan argument is Chicago without DeRozan is in the running for the First Pick with the Wizards and Pistons. He is probably worth a 25-35 game swing for the Bulls. I can't think of another player like that in the NBA besides Jokic, Giannis. and maybe Luka or Davis. Everyone else plays with reasonable enough cast where could at at least float in the 10-20 range.
There’s absolutely zero chance Derozan is worth 25-35 games for the Bulls. Debatable if any player in history has been worth that (likely not). Largest single season improvement for a team is in that range—but it’s more than one guy, and guys a lot better than DeRozan

Can you show any analytical model that remotely supports any of the above? Like, at all?
 

Euclis20

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There’s absolutely zero chance Derozan is worth 25-35 games for the Bulls. Debatable if any player in history has been worth that (likely not). Largest single season improvement for a team is in that range—but it’s more than one guy, and guys a lot better than DeRozan

Can you show any analytical model that remotely supports any of the above? Like, at all?
Win shares attempts to measure this, but it's not the best. If we go by that, one player for one season in history has been worth 25-35 wins, barely: Kareem had 25.37 win shares in 1972 Bucks.
 

benhogan

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God damn, we open with the Bulls tomorrow

DeMar DeRozan will make all you doubters pay with his mid-range madness.
 

TomRicardo

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I’ve changed my mind, if we added another DeRozan to the Bulls, they’d win 70 games.
That is not how it works. Also a 25 Win Share would only statistically a team would have 8 game shift (a win share is a third of team win on an average team). However on a shitty team, Win Shares have more of an effect on the overall team when you remove the player then a good team. Generally bad teams don't have players to fill the gap left by the player as well as the player represents a larger piece of their production.

On Net Rating DeRozan's ORTG/DRTG is 122.2 / 114.7 which is much better than the rest of the starters in Chicago

I was shocked that DeRozan had a 5.9 win share of a real crap Chicago team. I thought was more impressive than LeBron's 5.0 WS on the Lakers. I don't think DeRozan is some all time hero and his been overrated most of his career he is having a surprisingly good season this season on a rudderless Chicago team. Without DeRozan, teams would just jam up Coby White and you would be forced to play Caruso 35-40 minutes, they wouldn't even have a secondary ball handler.

Giving DeRozan a third team NBA for not folding it in on Chicago is not a hill I realy want to die on Sure he is playing to try to trick someone into giving him one last contract but he is offering more value to his team than LeBron this year. The guy is playing 37 minute a night with Coby White and ghost of Vucevic. Shrug

Anyone thinking Lebron actually deserves Second Team ALL NBA is insane. Sure ESPN and Disney hype machine will get him the votes, but good christ he is not top ten player anymore. He is the number 2 player on a play in team. There is a reason he has 5.0 win share.
 

TomRicardo

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God damn, we open with the Bulls tomorrow

DeMar DeRozan will make all you doubters pay with his mid-range madness.
Just like top ten LeBron is going to help the Lakers to a smooth 45 win season. PLAY IN FEVER WHERE THE LEGENDS LIVE.

Anthony Davis is just LebBron running really really fast and sliding on a fake unibrow.

Edit - What is the worst record a team has had with two All NBA players on it that year?
 
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HomeRunBaker

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All the silliness about LeBron not making it has been replied to. Anyone who thinks he isn't an all-NBA player isn't watching the games nor looking at the stats.
It HAS to be full blown trolling at this point. Nothing less.
 

benhogan

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Just like top ten LeBron is going to help the Lakers to a smooth 45 win season. PLAY IN FEVER WHERE THE LEGENDS LIVE.

Anthony Davis is just LebBron running really really fast and sliding on a fake unibrow.
Lebron already raised his Banner this season :cool:

You'll get zero pushback from me on any Laker bashing
 

PedroKsBambino

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That is not how it works. Also a 25 Win Share would only statistically a team would have 8 game shift (a win share is a third of team win on an average team). However on a shitty team, Win Shares have more of an effect on the overall team when you remove the player then a good team. Generally bad teams don't have players to fill the gap left by the player as well as the player represents a larger piece of their production.

On Net Rating DeRozan's ORTG/DRTG is 122.2 / 114.7 which is much better than the rest of the starters in Chicago

I was shocked that DeRozan had a 5.9 win share of a real crap Chicago team. I thought was more impressive than LeBron's 5.0 WS on the Lakers. I don't think DeRozan is some all time hero and his been overrated most of his career he is having a surprisingly good season this season on a rudderless Chicago team. Without DeRozan, teams would just jam up Coby White and you would be forced to play Caruso 35-40 minutes, they wouldn't even have a secondary ball handler.

Giving DeRozan a third team NBA for not folding it in on Chicago is not a hill I realy want to die on Sure he is playing to try to trick someone into giving him one last contract but he is offering more value to his team than LeBron this year. The guy is playing 37 minute a night with Coby White and ghost of Vucevic. Shrug

Anyone thinking Lebron actually deserves Second Team ALL NBA is insane. Sure ESPN and Disney hype machine will get him the votes, but good christ he is not top ten player anymore. He is the number 2 player on a play in team. There is a reason he has 5.0 win share.
you’re misunderstanding win shares—they have to allocate “wins” across the players for a team so it’s easier, not harder, to accumulate them on a team with few good players.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Win shares attempts to measure this, but it's not the best. If we go by that, one player for one season in history has been worth 25-35 wins, barely: Kareem had 25.37 win shares in 1972 Bucks.
yes—thanks and that’s what I’m saying: whether you look at win shares, team record improvement YoY, or other analytics it’s massively hard to get to a single guy impacting 25-35 wins with any credibility - it’s Perk-level analysis (e.g. just made up)
 

Kliq

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Jokic
Giannis
Tatum
SGA
Booker
Davis
Luka
Sabonis
Durant
Fox
Kawhi
Brunson
Mitchell
Haliburton
Steph


I guess that means I'm trolling or not watching the games or something.
 

the moops

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Jokic
Giannis
Tatum
SGA
Booker
Davis
Luka
Sabonis
Durant
Fox
Kawhi
Brunson
Mitchell
Haliburton
Steph


I guess that means I'm trolling or not watching the games or something.
Doesn’t mean you are trolling just means you are wrong :)

Seriously though not a bad list but Lebron absolutely deserves to be in the top 15
 

HomeRunBaker

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Jokic
Giannis
Tatum
SGA
Booker
Davis
Luka
Sabonis
Durant
Fox
Kawhi
Brunson
Mitchell
Haliburton
Steph


I guess that means I'm trolling or not watching the games or something.
Actually that’s a pretty good list. LeBron > Sabonis and Harden > Fox would be my initial changes along with another that most won’t agree with but too much shit started here already lol.
 

Kliq

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Actually that’s a pretty good list. LeBron > Sabonis and Harden > Fox would be my initial changes along with another that most won’t agree with but too much shit started here already lol.
Oh man, I don't want to go fall into the HRB hole here, but there is no way LeBron is rated higher than Sabonis this year. That makes me think you are not watching the games or looking at any stats, or whatever else I've been accused of doing. Sabonis is a Top 5/Top 10 player by pretty much every advanced metric and ahead of LeBron in all of them.
 

TomRicardo

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All the silliness about LeBron not making it has been replied to. Anyone who thinks he isn't an all-NBA player isn't watching the games nor looking at the stats.
He is definitely going to get voted in.

I don't think he is a top 15 player anymore. I am not trolling.

I don't think anyone would argue LeBron beats out


MVP Tier
Joker
Giannis
SGA
excluding Embiid for playing time.


All Starter / No. 1 A
Luka
Tatum
Davis
Kawhi
Durant


Lets say there is a second/third tier (All Star / Max Player) of

Brunson, Mitchell, Harden, Booker, Haliburton, Sabonis, Butler, Markkanen, Maxey, KAT, Curry, Anthony Edwards, Porzingis, Chet, Sengun, Zion, Paul George, Scottie Barnes, Paul George, Jaylen Brown, Kyrie Irving, Jared Allen, Lilliard, DeRozan, Gobert, Bam, Trae Young

LeBron is solidly in that tier but I don't think he is a top six/seven player in that tier during the regular season anymore.

He is the second fiddle on a play in team. I am not saying he can't lock in and give you top 10 LeBron for stretches at a time but to sit an argue LeBron can consistently go out over 82 game season and beat out the likes of Mitchell, Curry, and Harden ... hell even Butler consistently? The Lakers really aren't good enough (negative net rating) to have two top 15 players.
 

RorschachsMask

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Sabonis is 40th in EPM, 105th in DPM, 13th in LEBRON, and 8th in BPM. LeBron better by the higher regarded advanced stats, has a better on/off, and the two teams are separated by two games in the standings.

I like Fox a lot, and Sabonis is a really good offensive player, but I’d be shocked if both make all nba.

I don’t like the “you don’t watch the games” takes lol.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Oh man, I don't want to go fall into the HRB hole here, but there is no way LeBron is rated higher than Sabonis this year. That makes me think you are not watching the games or looking at any stats, or whatever else I've been accused of doing. Sabonis is a Top 5/Top 10 player by pretty much every advanced metric and ahead of LeBron in all of them.
I’d love to have a look at the Top-5 lists that Sabonis is a part of. I rate his defense alone to where almost any offense he provides doesn’t get him into my Top-25.
 

Kliq

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Sabonis is 40th in EPM, 105th in DPM, 13th in LEBRON, and 8th in BPM.

LeBron better by advanced stats, has a better on/off, and the two teams are separated by two games in the standings.

I like Fox a lot, and Sabonis is a really good offensive player, but I’d be shocked if both make all nba.

I don’t like the “you don’t watch the games” takes lol.
Bullshit. Sabonis is higher in VORP, BPM, DBPM, WS/48, WS, DWS, OWS, PER and TS%. He's also played the fourth most minutes in the NBA. His team is currently ahead of the Lakers in the standings, with a worse surrounding cast.
 

RorschachsMask

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Bullshit. Sabonis is higher in VORP, BPM, DBPM, WS/48, WS, DWS, OWS, PER and TS%. He's also played the fourth most minutes in the NBA. His team is currently ahead of the Lakers in the standings, with a worse surrounding cast.
I mean, VORP is literally just BPM win shares. TS is strictly an efficiency stat, bball reference win shares are all just part of the same thing, and PER is not something people use anymore, it’s considered the worst advanced stat there is.

Lebron has the higher DPM, the higher EPM, the higher RAPM, their LEBRON is basically identical, Sabonis has a 3.23 to 3.11 edge. Sabonis has the higher BPM, and win shares. LeBron has the on/off advantage as well.

Both teams supporting casts are horrid. Do you think it’s possible that you just dislike Lebron enough to skew your opinion?
 

Kliq

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I mean, VORP is literally just BPM win shares. TS is strictly an efficiency stat, bball reference win shares are all just part of the same thing, and PER is not something people use anymore, it’s considered the worst advanced stat there is.

Lebron has the higher DPM, the higher EPM, the higher RAPM, their LEBRON is basically identical, Sabonis has a 3.23 to 3.11 edge. Sabonis has the higher BPM, and win shares. LeBron has the on/off advantage as well.

Both teams supporting casts are horrid. Do you think it’s possible that you just dislike Lebron enough to skew your opinion?
So, all my stats are just amalgamations of the same thing, while you use DPM, EPM and RAPM? This is not a serious conversation anymore.
 

slamminsammya

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Bullshit. Sabonis is higher in VORP, BPM, DBPM, WS/48, WS, DWS, OWS, PER and TS%. He's also played the fourth most minutes in the NBA. His team is currently ahead of the Lakers in the standings, with a worse surrounding cast.
the statistics you cite here were thought of as good assessments of NBA player skill circa 2000. rohrshach went into why they aren't great all in one numbers.

I also don't understand why people are so caught up on the Lakers record. the rest of the team is dreck! maybe reaves excepted.
 

slamminsammya

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So, all my stats are just amalgamations of the same thing, while you use DPM, EPM and RAPM? This is not a serious conversation anymore.
no, your stats are generally considered to be vastly inferior all in one assessments of player impact.

WS and PER in particular are egregiously bad for reasons I can expand upon it youd like.
 

RorschachsMask

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So, all my stats are just amalgamations of the same thing, while you use DPM, EPM and RAPM? This is not a serious conversation anymore.
You’re using advanced stats that are universally considered dated, and much worse than the more highly regarded ones.

If you want to use them, so be it. But that’s not the stats that the voters are going to use. You’re the exception in this entire debate, not the rule.
 

TomRicardo

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I mean, VORP is literally just BPM win shares. TS is just an efficiency stat, bball reference win shares are all just part of the same thing, and PER is not something people use anymore, it’s considered the worst advanced stat there is.

Lebron has the higher DPM, the higher EPM, the higher RAPM, their LEBRON is basically identical, Sabonis has a 3.23 to 3.11 edge. Sabonis has the higher BPM, and win shares. LeBron has the on/off advantage as well.

Both teams supporting casts are horrid. Do you think it’s possible that you just dislike Lebron enough to skew your opinion?
Eh, the math doesn't add up.

Lakers are just not that much worse when LeBron is off the court then when he is and he plays a majority of his minutes with Anthony Davis. Crap they have a positive net rating when LeBron doesn't play at all. It is really hard me to understand how a team that can have positive net rating when LeBron doesn't play at all can be so bad when LeBron does play that him and Anthony Davis play together they only have +1.6 net rating.

This is only makes sense if:

1) The three other players on the Lakers immediately forget to play basketball as LeBron gets on the court
2) Anthony Davis and LeBron don't compliment each other at all
3) LeBron is doing things like say not even bothering to play transition defense 90% of the time that advanced stats wouldn't capture.
 

RorschachsMask

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Eh, the math doesn't add up.

Lakers are just not that much worse when LeBron is off the court then when he is and he plays a majority of his minutes with Anthony Davis. Crap they have a positive net rating when LeBron doesn't play at all. It is really hard me to understand how a team that can have positive net rating when LeBron doesn't play at all can be so bad when LeBron does play that him and Anthony Davis play together they only have +1.6 net rating.

This is only makes sense if:

1) The three other players on the Lakers immediately forget to play basketball as LeBron gets on the court
2) Anthony Davis and LeBron don't compliment each other at all
3) LeBron is doing things like say not even bothering to play transition defense 90% of the time that advanced stats wouldn't capture.
78473

It’s even more dramatic with garbage time filtered out.
 

CreightonGubanich

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Not sure why anyone would call LeBron second fiddle on the Lakers. AD has had a fantastic season, and yes, leads them in scoring by a tenth of a point over LeBron. But the Lakers' offense, like every LeBron team ever, is still, "hey LeBron, go make a play". He's still an offensive ecosystem unto himself in a way that only Luka, Jokic, Embiid, Curry and maybe a couple others (Haliburton? SGA? sometimes Harden?) are.

And yes, his defense isn't peak LeBron. He takes possessions off, but he's still a versatile defender who can impact the game on that end when he wants to. More importantly, no one should be criticizing LeBron's defense while extolling the All-NBA virtues of Tyrese Haliburton, Damontas Sabonis, or DeMar DeRozan, just to name a few.
 

slamminsammya

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Eh, the math doesn't add up.

Lakers are just not that much worse when LeBron is off the court then when he is and he plays a majority of his minutes with Anthony Davis. Crap they have a positive net rating when LeBron doesn't play at all. It is really hard me to understand how a team that can have positive net rating when LeBron doesn't play at all can be so bad when LeBron does play that him and Anthony Davis play together they only have +1.6 net rating.

This is only makes sense if:

1) The three other players on the Lakers immediately forget to play basketball as LeBron gets on the court
2) Anthony Davis and LeBron don't compliment each other at all
3) LeBron is doing things like say not even bothering to play transition defense 90% of the time that advanced stats wouldn't capture.
on/off is a great way to think about it! while you're at it, let's try to control for their teammates and their opponents. hey, we just re created RPM/RAPM/RPM oopsy.

LeBron is currently 11th in RPM. left as an exercise for the reader to see where he stands in other on/off metrics.
 

the moops

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Jan 19, 2016
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He is definitely going to get voted in.

I don't think he is a top 15 player anymore. I am not trolling.

I don't think anyone would argue LeBron beats out


MVP Tier
Joker
Giannis
SGA
excluding Embiid for playing time.


All Starter / No. 1 A
Luka
Tatum
Davis
Kawhi
Durant


Lets say there is a second/third tier (All Star / Max Player) of

Brunson, Mitchell, Harden, Booker, Haliburton, Sabonis, Butler, Markkanen, Maxey, KAT, Curry, Anthony Edwards, Porzingis, Chet, Sengun, Zion, Paul George, Scottie Barnes, Paul George, Jaylen Brown, Kyrie Irving, Jared Allen, Lilliard, DeRozan, Gobert, Bam, Trae Young

LeBron is solidly in that tier but I don't think he is a top six/seven player in that tier during the regular season anymore.

He is the second fiddle on a play in team. I am not saying he can't lock in and give you top 10 LeBron for stretches at a time but to sit an argue LeBron can consistently go out over 82 game season and beat out the likes of Mitchell, Curry, and Harden ... hell even Butler consistently? The Lakers really aren't good enough (negative net rating) to have two top 15 players.
You keep saying things like this. He is not 2nd fiddle on the Lakers.

And that list of 27 guys? It is beyond comedy to have a bunch of those dudes in the same tier as Lebron. Like comically ridiculous.
 

Auger34

used to be tbb
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Apr 23, 2010
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Not sure why anyone would call LeBron second fiddle on the Lakers. AD has had a fantastic season, and yes, leads them in scoring by a tenth of a point over LeBron. But the Lakers' offense, like every LeBron team ever, is still, "hey LeBron, go make a play". He's still an offensive ecosystem unto himself in a way that only Luka, Jokic, Embiid, Curry and maybe a couple others (Haliburton? SGA? sometimes Harden?) are.

And yes, his defense isn't peak LeBron. He takes possessions off, but he's still a versatile defender who can impact the game on that end when he wants to. More importantly, no one should be criticizing LeBron's defense while extolling the All-NBA virtues of Tyrese Haliburton, Damontas Sabonis, or DeMar DeRozan, just to name a few.
Yeah, I've kind of lost the thread here as to why LeBron isn't a top 15 player anymore but I believe the initial argument was that he only played great defense when he was focused and locked in (which is a fair criticism)...but at least he can do it when he tries. Sabonis is an ass awful defensive player (slow feet, can't rebound) all of the time.
 

the moops

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Jan 19, 2016
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Yeah, I've kind of lost the thread here as to why LeBron isn't a top 15 player anymore but I believe the initial argument was that he only played great defense when he was focused and locked in (which is a fair criticism)...but at least he can do it when he tries. Sabonis is an ass awful defensive player (slow feet, can't rebound) all of the time.
This is true for so many guys seems unfair to just call out Lebron for this
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
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If there’s a debate as to who the best player on a .500 team is, then that team probably shouldn’t be repped on the All-NBA teams. I’m sure there aren’t 15 players I’d rather have than healthy LeBron come playoff time, but All-NBA is a regular season award.
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
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To answer the question posed by the thread:

The first team should be Jokic, SGA, Giannis, Tatum, and Doncic.

Mitchell, Kawhi, and Durant should be second team. So should Haliburton, but I suspect he won’t play the requisite 65 games.

I could argue 15 different guys for the remaining 6-7 spots.
 

ManicCompression

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May 14, 2015
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More importantly, no one should be criticizing LeBron's defense while extolling the All-NBA virtues of Tyrese Haliburton, Damontas Sabonis, or DeMar DeRozan, just to name a few.
Yeah, this is wild - Sabonis is such a massive liability. He plays the most important defensive position and is bad at nearly all aspects of it outside of rebounding. Simply having him on your team restricts everything you do on a basketball court. If we’re disregarding positions, it’s even more strange to prefer him over Lebron because of positional scarcity.
 

TomRicardo

rusty cohlebone
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Not sure why anyone would call LeBron second fiddle on the Lakers. AD has had a fantastic season, and yes, leads them in scoring by a tenth of a point over LeBron. But the Lakers' offense, like every LeBron team ever, is still, "hey LeBron, go make a play". He's still an offensive ecosystem unto himself in a way that only Luka, Jokic, Embiid, Curry and maybe a couple others (Haliburton? SGA? sometimes Harden?) are.

And yes, his defense isn't peak LeBron. He takes possessions off, but he's still a versatile defender who can impact the game on that end when he wants to. More importantly, no one should be criticizing LeBron's defense while extolling the All-NBA virtues of Tyrese Haliburton, Damontas Sabonis, or DeMar DeRozan, just to name a few.
He is wanting to more and more. Advanced stats do not take in account lack of defensive effort on an individudals. They measure the defensive output of the team when a player is on the court and when he is not. The idea is effort should be fairly consistent that is not event dependent say like a 39 YO player not feeling it. When slamminsammya is running around feeling super embolden by RPM numbers as end all be all my question is why does the advanced stats not match up to the team record. Why is the team performing better when LeBron doesn't play at all? If you want say small size, LeBron typically sits out against better opponents on the back end of road trips back to backs. If anything the Lakers should be a lot worse when LeBron is out instead of the 4-3 with a positive net rating they are.

My argument is LeBron's inconsistent effort, because expecting 39 YO to perform at an elite level consistently is insane, leads to poor team performance which is advanced stats mask. Everyone else having to max effort because LeBron does not play transition defense unless he is pissed drains everyone. LeBron is playing Jimmy Butler's game nowadays to a greater degree because once again he is 39 years old.
 

TomRicardo

rusty cohlebone
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You keep saying things like this. He is not 2nd fiddle on the Lakers.

And that list of 27 guys? It is beyond comedy to have a bunch of those dudes in the same tier as Lebron. Like comically ridiculous.
I am sorry but if you think LeBron is having a better season than Anthony Davis it is really hard to take you seriously. Minutes screamed about by Stephen A Smith what stat or metric is LeBron beating Anthony Davis out in?

You think he is better than all those guys listed. Are you saying LeBron is better than Luka and Tatum or as close to impactful to his team this regular season? If LeBron is at an 1A level how the fuck are the Lakers .500 team? You realize how delusion you are getting here.