2022-2023 General Celtics thread

TheRooster

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Kornet is probably only the 9th man when the other team plays non-shooters like Green and Looney.
 

BigSoxFan

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Last night pretty much illustrated to me that the Celtics are the deepest and best team in the league, when healthy. They didn't even play all that well, especially the Jay's, but the depth of Horford, TL, Brogdon really wore GS out. With a "normal" Jay's/Brogdon shooting night, it's probably a comfortable win. The Warriors will always be a tough matchup because they have 3 really good scorers and Wiggins beyond that but their bench just isn't that impressive. Kuminga will help but it feels like this team needs to make a move of a young'n for a better vet. At some point, they need to shit or get off the pot with Wiseman. Thank god they've wasted that prime asset to date. Know he's hurt now but he doesn't really help them much, when healthy.
 

kfoss99

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That missed shot by Horford was a heads up play.
Is there a rule that a player can't just chuck the ball straight up in the air to run clock? Horford's shot was similar to that in affect.

I've wondered why if there's 26 -28 seconds of game clock why a player doesn't throw the ball straight up in the air. That's gotta take 3 seconds or so. Like a punt in football.
 

benhogan

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But in clutch time it was one of Al or Rob playing, not both. Lineups with Rob and Al (I don't think it really matter who is the 4 or 5) were +3 in the first, -9 in the second, and -3 in the 3rd. From the mid 3rd on only one or the other played, and we didn't see Kornet in the 2nd half. I think defensively they match up better with GS going smaller. Al Horford was a stud all night long.

Fun game, haven't been that wound up watching in awhile. C's missed open shots and carelessly turned it over, yet dug in and made some clutch plays, got it to OT and got the win. Seems like State still is in their heads, but they had the talent level to overcome that. They can certainly play better and that's encouraging. Defense in the 4th and OT was outstanding.
In the clutch, when defenses turn it up a notch, more Brogdon, please. Malcolm/Marcus should initiate with the ball in their hands at the top with Brown/Tatum on the wings.

This team doesn't need to add a WING when Grant plays 13 minutes and White plays 17 minutes.
In the event of injury, Tatum is the most important player with Brown, Horford, TL holding the most leverage

On another note, CJM is really coming into his own. Using TOs to reset the team and getting this team over the finish line while they turned it over & shot poorly from the FG/ 3/FT

Is there a rule that a player can't just chuck the ball straight up in the air to run clock? Horford's shot was similar to that in affect.

I've wondered why if there's 26 -28 seconds of game clock why a player doesn't throw the ball straight up in the air. That's gotta take 3 seconds or so. Like a punt in football.
Deadball once the shot clock goes off (if the ball has not hit the rim)
 

Light-Tower-Power

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Is there a rule that a player can't just chuck the ball straight up in the air to run clock? Horford's shot was similar to that in affect.

I've wondered why if there's 26 -28 seconds of game clock why a player doesn't throw the ball straight up in the air. That's gotta take 3 seconds or so. Like a punt in football.
 

lovegtm

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so it applies to Golden State
the Bucks (Giannis)
the Grizzlies (Adams/Clarke)
the Nets (Claxton/Simmons)
the Heat (Bam)

there is a common thread here
Yup, it's not 2017 Warriors anymore. There are a lot of good teams that have to play some non or poor shooters. This is the NBA Durant stole from us with his 2016 decision.
 

benhogan

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I'll say this: Anthony Lamb did not look like a two-way player, he was giving some of our starters trouble on both ends.
Agreed, he was a nice find by Bob. He'll get converted to the roster. He actually has some Grant traits. Patrick Baldwin, isn't usable at the moment but could be a rotation player for the Warriors next year. With Kuminga, Lamb, PBJ they have enough young guys to dream on to make Wiseman & Moody available. They need to go get Poeltl or Vanderbilt
 

the moops

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Is there a rule that a player can't just chuck the ball straight up in the air to run clock? Horford's shot was similar to that in affect.

I've wondered why if there's 26 -28 seconds of game clock why a player doesn't throw the ball straight up in the air. That's gotta take 3 seconds or so. Like a punt in football.
If it is a shot clock violation, the whistle is blown and clock reset to the moment of the clock violation. So unless you think you can chuck it up AND hit the rim, it is not a wise move
 

InstaFace

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yeah the skyball chucking is used to avoid take fouls in the closing seconds of a close game, not to extend the shot clock past a 24-second violation.
 

lexrageorge

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Looking at the replay here:

https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=778&GameID=0022200679&Season=2022-23&flag=1&title=MISS Horford 20' Fadeaway Jumper

Al barely gets the shot out of his hands before the buzzer sounds, but the buzzer clearly sounds when the ball is in the air. From the NBA rulebook:

https://official.nba.com/rule-no-7-24-second-clock/

  • After gaining possession of the ball, a team must attempt a field goal before the shot clock expires. To constitute a legal field goal attempt, the following conditions must be complied with:
    1. The ball must leave the player’s hand prior to the expiration of the shot clock.
    2. After leaving the player’s hand(s), the ball must make contact with the basket ring
The key is that Horford's shot met both conditions, albeit barely. Had it been an airball, it would have been a violation. Also key was that the shot and rebound took about 1.9 seconds off the clock.
 

TomTerrific

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Fun game, haven't been that wound up watching in awhile. C's missed open shots and carelessly turned it over, yet dug in and made some clutch plays, got it to OT and got the win. Seems like State still is in their heads, but they had the talent level to overcome that. They can certainly play better and that's encouraging. Defense in the 4th and OT was outstanding.
This is fairly similar to my takeaway. Last year Cs lose this game by 10 or more. Now the talent level is high enough they can do what they did and still pull it out.

My one concern is not mental toughness, because they certainly have that, but playing somewhat smarter, especially in critical moments. Hopefully that will come.
 

InstaFace

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Yeah the turnovers were the most infuriating part, even moreso than the reffing (which, as DBMH pointed out, was well within the bounds of normal NBA ref variance). We know they're one of the best stealing teams in the league, but it's the sloppiness, not the brilliant reach-ins on a drive or whatever, that really were the worst part. Is our turnover rate worse in the 4Q when everyone's tired, or does it just feel that way?
 

InstaFace

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Because we're talking about everything relating to the GSW game over in the Tatum thread, I thought I'd move this here:

Cant we assume that the Celtics had some say in how Curry shot? Its truly ridiculous. On the one hand, no one is saying that GSW choked. On the other, no one is saying the Celtics mounted a tough and terrific comeback. It's almost as though, to some people, the Celtics only won the game because the NBA has decided that someone has to be decreed the winner, and that neither team actually had anything to do with the outcome. It just kinda happened.
It's a fair point, about harping on the negativity. Old habits die hard, I suppose. So in that spirit, let me offer praise for a moment that seemed to blow right by: Jaylen Brown's game-tying 3 at the end of regulation. We seemed to have gone cold from the floor and were being sloppy on D. Horford hits a big 3, but after some more mayhem, I dunno about you guys but I had little confidence that we'd make the right play there with 30 seconds left. But then...

View: https://youtu.be/kE_SkK9Xl8g?t=414


Brown calls for it, Marcus hits him, and he drills it with no hesitation, despite the night he'd been having. I get that they count the same in minute 1 as they do in minute 48, but we were out of good alternatives if he missed that. Just a great shot, with enough ball movement to free him up.
 

benhogan

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My one concern is not mental toughness, because they certainly have that, but playing somewhat smarter, especially in critical moments. Hopefully that will come.
Agreed. This team needs to get a little smarter when closing games. We covered this in the ECF Miami Game 7 last year BUT
1. Smart's turnover when they were up 6. Ugh. You're supposed to be the best ball handler. GSW was going to foul down 6 with 30 seconds left. Have to be strong with the ball. A lazy pass toward the opposing rim over Dray is unSmart. Then the very next play the one-handed cross-court throwaway that Brown saved. WTF is Marcus thinking?
2. Tatum you're the best FT shooter on the team. You should not be inbounding the ball up 6. You should be receiving the inbounds. He did that twice...Ugh
3. Brown's rebound with a second left in regulation. He started dribbling. Jaylen still has not grasped the concept of an immediate TO on a defensive rebound means halfcourt. NBA 101

End of the Game on defense: REBOUND - TIMEOUT - DON'T DRIBBLE

4. Coach Joe. With .5 second left on the clock, you can't draw up a catch & turnaround jumper. It has to be an inbound pass toward the rim, tap in.

All small crap, but it's basic fundamental basketball.
 

InstaFace

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4. Coach Joe. With .5 second left on the clock, you can't draw up a catch & turnaround jumper. It has to be an inbound pass toward the rim, tap in.
Yeah I was disappointed we didn't get the Time Lord lob play there. Guess putting him on the floor would've been too obvious.
 

Koufax

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Make it like a Hail Mary .. put in all the bigs and hope someone can deflect it into the basket.
 

HomeRunBaker

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4. Coach Joe. With .5 second left on the clock, you can't draw up a catch & turnaround jumper. It has to be an inbound pass toward the rim, tap in.
I moaned “Jooooooe c’mon man!” too. With .5 we didn’t necessarily need a lob as a catch-n-shoot is still good but the catch has to be going toward the basket. From that inbounds location you can’t be catching on the strong side of the court as you’d have to turn to shoot.
 

benhogan

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I moaned “Jooooooe c’mon man!” too. With .5 we didn’t necessarily need a lob as a catch-n-shoot is still good but the catch has to be going toward the basket. From that inbounds location you can’t be catching on the strong side of the court as you’d have to turn to shoot.
I'm being a little petty. I just re-watched the last half of Q4 and OT. The C's did a very good job on D (other than one JB/TL mix-up switch). Horford's perimeter defense on Curry several times was excellent.

On offense, the team took the ball strong to the hoop in OT. Which led to Tatum/ Brown FTs.

Poole got hacked by Brogdon at the rim & Klay didn't foul JB on his 6th. So the Ref stuff evens out.

Finally Coach Joe did a good job with TimeLord's minutes (27). They can claim there are no restrictions but we know they are being careful there.
 

TripleOT

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The next time Boston runs a play with less than a second left, I would run the exact same action with Brown, but start it earlier, and instead of presenting himself on the strong side for the jumper have him curl back around a double pic for the lob
 

DGreenwood

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Looking at the replay here:

https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=778&GameID=0022200679&Season=2022-23&flag=1&title=MISS Horford 20' Fadeaway Jumper

Al barely gets the shot out of his hands before the buzzer sounds, but the buzzer clearly sounds when the ball is in the air. From the NBA rulebook:

https://official.nba.com/rule-no-7-24-second-clock/


The key is that Horford's shot met both conditions, albeit barely. Had it been an airball, it would have been a violation. Also key was that the shot and rebound took about 1.9 seconds off the clock.

The NBA last two minute report actually concluded that Al did not get that shot off in time and that it should have been a 24 second violation, giving GS 6+ seconds.
 

joe dokes

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Because we're talking about everything relating to the GSW game over in the Tatum thread, I thought I'd move this here:



It's a fair point, about harping on the negativity. Old habits die hard, I suppose. So in that spirit, let me offer praise for a moment that seemed to blow right by: Jaylen Brown's game-tying 3 at the end of regulation. We seemed to have gone cold from the floor and were being sloppy on D. Horford hits a big 3, but after some more mayhem, I dunno about you guys but I had little confidence that we'd make the right play there with 30 seconds left. But then...

View: https://youtu.be/kE_SkK9Xl8g?t=414


Brown calls for it, Marcus hits him, and he drills it with no hesitation, despite the night he'd been having. I get that they count the same in minute 1 as they do in minute 48, but we were out of good alternatives if he missed that. Just a great shot, with enough ball movement to free him up.
That was a "don't......great shot" moment for me.
 

The Mort Report

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2. Tatum you're the best FT shooter on the team. You should not be inbounding the ball up 6. You should be receiving the inbounds. He did that twice...Ugh
I'd imagine he's the one inbounding the ball because he's the best passer at his height. I can't remember who was on the floor, but the guards are too short, Rob you probably want for the lob threat, and Al or Grant are really good with the catch and shoot 3s if the ball swings. I can see an argument for having Al being the inbounder, but you can also have someone flash to Tatum and immediately get him the ball after the inbound
 

Deathofthebambino

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Well, this really sucks. Wouldn't they have video/audio evidence if people were screaming that within earshot of the court?

Can't imagine the Celtic players would stand for it either. Security would point/toss out fans screaming garbage like that, right?

Draymond Green admitted that the environment in TD Garden during The Finals impacted his play in the series. Green said on his podcast in November that he was repeatedly called racist names throughout the three games played in Boston.

"It was such a beautiful thing," Green told ESPN of closing out the series in Boston in Game 6. "It's not something they hadn't experienced before. So I think it's great that they experienced it from us. With Steph Curry doing what Steph Curry does and the guy they chose to call the N-word. It was beautiful."


https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/270053/Draymond-Green-Racist-Chants-In-Boston-Impacted-My-Play-In-Finals
Funny thing about him saying this in November, 2022.

He said this in January, 2022:

They’re loud. They’re pretty loud. They’re very loud. A little obnoxious. But Cleveland fans used to be obnoxious, too. Now, I think these people, they take the cake. I think, going away, they take the cake. But yeah, it’s loud. I mean, you’re trying to win a championship. It should be loud. The fans should be into it. And so I respect it, and after the series I’ll appreciate it. But for now, you know what it is with them.

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2022/06/13/draymond-green-cleveland-fans-were-obnoxious-but-boston-fans-take-the-cake/

This is what he said during the actual FInals, with his son next to him:

“That’s a part of it. He’s here. He has to know what’s up,” Green said of his son. “It is what it is. It’s all a part of it. If it bothered me, I wouldn’t bring him. But he has to know, because he may be in this position one day. And if so, I’m going to sit right in the stands and watch him. And I’m going to say, ‘F— them’ back.”

https://andscape.com/features/draymond-green-ignores-celtics-fans-obscene-taunts-focuses-on-playing-better-in-nba-finals/

After the Finals, he was giving the Celtics fanbase kudos:

“I appreciate this fanbase. They brought incredible energy. Got to give kudos to them. But we did what we do, welcome back to the Warriors’ Invitational baby! That’s what we do! Welcome back!”

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2022/06/17/draymond-green-celtics-fans-warriors-nba-finals/

Then almost 6 months later, he's dropping shit about the fans calling him the N-word.

I'm more than just skeptical of the guy looking for clicks and views on his podcast.
 

benhogan

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Funny thing about him saying this in November, 2022.

He said this in January, 2022:

They’re loud. They’re pretty loud. They’re very loud. A little obnoxious. But Cleveland fans used to be obnoxious, too. Now, I think these people, they take the cake. I think, going away, they take the cake. But yeah, it’s loud. I mean, you’re trying to win a championship. It should be loud. The fans should be into it. And so I respect it, and after the series I’ll appreciate it. But for now, you know what it is with them.

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2022/06/13/draymond-green-cleveland-fans-were-obnoxious-but-boston-fans-take-the-cake/

This is what he said during the actual FInals, with his son next to him:

“That’s a part of it. He’s here. He has to know what’s up,” Green said of his son. “It is what it is. It’s all a part of it. If it bothered me, I wouldn’t bring him. But he has to know, because he may be in this position one day. And if so, I’m going to sit right in the stands and watch him. And I’m going to say, ‘F— them’ back.”

https://andscape.com/features/draymond-green-ignores-celtics-fans-obscene-taunts-focuses-on-playing-better-in-nba-finals/

After the Finals, he was giving the Celtics fanbase kudos:

“I appreciate this fanbase. They brought incredible energy. Got to give kudos to them. But we did what we do, welcome back to the Warriors’ Invitational baby! That’s what we do! Welcome back!”

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2022/06/17/draymond-green-celtics-fans-warriors-nba-finals/

Then almost 6 months later, he's dropping shit about the fans calling him the N-word.

I'm more than just skeptical of the guy looking for clicks and views on his podcast.
Good job researching all those quotes with the timeline

The NBA should do a formal investigation. See if any courtside mics were hot, picked this stuff up. Interview players, coaches, trainers, etc

Maybe he can pinpoint at what point he heard racist taunts. Was it in Games 3? 4? 6? Was it every game? all game long?
(pre-game? warmups? during timeouts? 1st half 2nd half? post-game?)
 

Eddie Jurak

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What a crazy win for the Celtics today. Tatum took a well-deserved maintenance day and then the Celtics lost Rob (hyperextended left knee when Jaylen fell into him), Smart (sprained ankle), and even White (kneed on a 4th quarter drive, which the imbecile refs let go).

The Celtics started out the game front rimming everything and turning the ball over, falling behind by as much as 11 in the first quarter, before heating up at the end and cutting the Raptor lead to 1, 27-26. They were led by Brown (13 points) and Brogdon (7). It was during the first that a falling Jaylen landed into Rob's surgically repaired knee, causing a hyperextension, but Rob continued to play into the second quarter before leaving for the locker room before the half. Fortunately, the immediate postgame reports on Rob's knee said it was nothing major, hopefully that is actually the case.

The Celtics played better in the second, getting offense from Brogdon and Grant (Jaylen did not score in the second quarter), eventually building up a 5 point lead 43-38 at the halfway mark. Then they went ice cole for the rest of the half, getting outscored 19-7 and going into the half down 7, 57-50. Smart's injury came with 9 seconds left. Sprained ankle, x-rays negative. Smart was pretty lousy in this game, -17 in 16 minutes. 4 assists but 3 tunrovers.

Kornet and Brogdon started the third quarter for Rob and Smart. (The other starters were White, Al, Jaylen). The third quarter was frustrating. The Celtics would, seemingly repeatedly, cut into the 7 point Raptor lead only to have the Raptors regain it. Late in the quarter, Brogdon hit a pair of threes to cut the Raptor lead to 1, the the Raptors scored 2 straight baskets to open it to 5. Then Grant hit a pair of FTs, Achiuwa hit a three to make the lead 6, and Grant closed out the quarter by getting fouled with <1 second on the clock and hitting his free throws to cut the lead to 4. These FTs were Grant's 21st ans 22nd points of the game, good for his regular season scoring high. (He dropped 27 in game 7 against the Bucks in round 2 last year). They got some good minutes from Kornet in the quarter.

For the fourth quarter, Joe Mazzulla dusted off Blake Griffin, who hadn't played since Jan 5, and started him with Pritchard, Grant, White, and Brown. Boston scored the first 9 points of the quarter, on threes by Brown, Pritchard, and Grant, to go up 90-85, first lead of the game. Toronto brings Siakam and Achiuwa back, the cut the lead to 90-89. Jaylen hits a jumper, and on the next trio down the floor Siakam drives into Blake, called a blocking foul. Mazzulla challenges the call and wins. Brogdon comes back. Pritchard drains another three giving the Celtics a 6 point lead. Horford in for Blake. After a Raptor backet, Jaylen hits another three, lead is 7. Raptors score, then Pritchard hits another three, lead is 8, 5:53 left, and this is where things start to go wrong. Celtics go cold, Raptors score a couple of baskets to cut lead to 3. Brogdon hits a layup, then Siakam scores and then Trent drills a typing 3, 103 apiece. With 1:30 left, Pritchard drills his 4th three of the quarter to put the Celtics back up 3. Horford fouls Siakam, who hits 1 of 2, score is 104-103. This was an immensely frustrating quarter because the refs were happy to call fouls on the Celtics in the defensive end but swallowe their whistles in the Celtics offensive end. White left the game because he was kneed while driving, refs saw nothing. The play goes back and forth for a bit with no one scoring until there was only about 20 seconds left, at which point one of the craziest endings to a basketball game happened.
  • With 21 seconds left, Celtics up 106-104, Trent Jr. missed a shot, rebounded by Horford. The ball is moved to Pritchard. Grant was hit on the play and is down and slow getting up. The Raptors trap Pritchard in the backcourt. Pritchard, under pressure, throws a horrible pass stolen by Trent Jr. Raptors call timeout with 14 seconds left. (Mazzulla acknowledged after the game that he should have called timeout when Pritchard was trapped.)
  • Toronto inbounds the ball, nearly turning it over, but eventually Siakam gets it and drives. Horford blocks Siakam's shot, and the refs call a jump ball with 8.6 seconds left. I didn;t clearly see what happened on the play, but Nick Nurse was irate and he called his last time out to challenge, only to be told by the refs that this call could not be challenged.
  • Horford jumps against Siakam. This was a crazy jump ball, reminded me of a hockey face off where players cheat and get waved out fo the circle. Horford loses, with Barnes recovering the ball right behind Horford. But Big Al immediately ties Barnes up(!!!), so there is another jump ball with 6 seconds left.
  • Horford jumps against Barnes and wins it cleanly, and the Celtics call time before Toronto can foul. 3.1 seconds left.
  • The Celtics advance the ball with 3.1 on the clock and... Grant is called for a dead ball offensive foul. Possession back to the Raptors, but they have no timeouts so they cannot advance.
  • The Raptors inbound the ball to Siakam around halfcourt, and with 1 second left Big Al steals it. Game over, 106-104 win. Crazy.
 

BillMuellerFanClub

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I’m legitimately concerned someone decides to offer Grant $18-20M/year in RFA. Boston can match any offer. In a vacuum, as a (very good) 3&D wing, he’s not worth that. However, Brad cannot lose his spot for nothing as they’re up against the cap ceiling. Grant has shown some real growth offensively this season (this isn’t just recency bias with his performance today), and he has the ability to credibly impede individually great players like Jokic and Giannis. With Horford signing a team-friendly extension, we’d be allocating about the same share of cap, tax excluded, to both players next season at that price tag. As a net, that’s probably a push since Al figures to slow at a rate comparable to Grant’s growth - with error bars at either end.

At this point, I think I match. This is how well-run, big-market teams flex their fiscal muscles. The only way I don’t is if a West bottom feeder is the one offering a rich deal AND Brad is somehow able to replace him with someone like PJ Washington.
 

Jimbodandy

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This turnover stuff at the end of games is going to bite them at some point, but good on them for finishing out another tough one. Was not thrilled with the refs at all...we've had some really strange refereeing off and on during this streak. Not anti-Celtics by any means, just weird. Good to see guys stepping up again. Thank God for depth.
 

lovegtm

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At this point, I have no desire to give Pritchard up for filler. He's proven his shot is elite at the NBA level, including playoffs, and he's totally fine defensively against all but a few specific matchups.

If another team values him, great, do a deal. If not, I'm happy to ride out his contract. His RFA market will probably be cold too, so bringing him back longer term on a team where Brogdon has aged out isn't even out of the question.
 

lovegtm

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This turnover stuff at the end of games is going to bite them at some point, but good on them for finishing out another tough one. Was not thrilled with the refs at all...we've had some really strange refereeing off and on during this streak. Not anti-Celtics by any means, just weird. Good to see guys stepping up again. Thank God for depth.
I think we sometimes forget how hard it is to close NBA games, when 5 very large and very fast humans are trying their balls out to turn you over. The Celtics have been pretty good late in games this year. At a certain point, stuff just happens and you have to play.

We think of every turnover as avoidable, and missed shots as just a fact of life, but a certain amount of turnovers are just going to happen in a fast-paced sport at the highest levels of intensity.

I hope they'll incrementally improve, but I don't know that there's a ton of juice left to squeeze there.
 

Eddie Jurak

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The Celtics sat Tatum, lost a big and 2 combo guards to injury, and still did not give Hauser a minute. That's an indication of how far he has fallen. I think he should maybe be getting assigned to Maine for a bit.
 

benhogan

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I’m legitimately concerned someone decides to offer Grant $18-20M/year in RFA. Boston can match any offer. In a vacuum, as a (very good) 3&D wing, he’s not worth that. However, Brad cannot lose his spot for nothing as they’re up against the cap ceiling. Grant has shown some real growth offensively this season (this isn’t just recency bias with his performance today), and he has the ability to credibly impede individually great players like Jokic and Giannis. With Horford signing a team-friendly extension, we’d be allocating about the same share of cap, tax excluded, to both players next season at that price tag. As a net, that’s probably a push since Al figures to slow at a rate comparable to Grant’s growth - with error bars at either end.

At this point, I think I match. This is how well-run, big-market teams flex their fiscal muscles. The only way I don’t is if a West bottom feeder is the one offering a rich deal AND Brad is somehow able to replace him with someone like PJ Washington.
PJ Washington at 15ppg probably gets a little more money.

I suspect Brad is comfortable betting on RFA not rewarding 6'6" high-end complimentary players that average 9pts. PBS will use Grant happy talk to scare teams off (unlike the PHX/Ayton stone-cold approach). That should also slightly dampen his market.

Unless Charlotte thinks bringing the local kid back makes sense, Grant could have a similar crappy RFA experience as Marcus Smart

At this point, I have no desire to give Pritchard up for filler. He's proven his shot is elite at the NBA level, including playoffs, and he's totally fine defensively against all but a few specific matchups.

If another team values him, great, do a deal. If not, I'm happy to ride out his contract. His RFA market will probably be cold too, so bringing him back longer term on a team where Brogdon has aged out isn't even out of the question.
Yep. Until somebody values Payton as a player that has averaged 13mpg over 29 playoff games the last 2 seasons and had the highest 3pt% the 2nd half of last season Brad should just keep him on the cheap.

If you're a tanking team, you could modestly extend this guy for 4yrs this summer. I think he has more value than a late first but that's probably my green goggles speaking.
 
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benhogan

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Nov 2, 2007
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The Celtics sat Tatum, lost a big and 2 combo guards to injury, and still did not give Hauser a minute. That's an indication of how far he has fallen. I think he should maybe be getting assigned to Maine for a bit.
it could also mean that they are really deep at WING
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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Jun 26, 2006
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At this point, I have no desire to give Pritchard up for filler. He's proven his shot is elite at the NBA level, including playoffs, and he's totally fine defensively against all but a few specific matchups.

If another team values him, great, do a deal. If not, I'm happy to ride out his contract. His RFA market will probably be cold too, so bringing him back longer term on a team where Brogdon has aged out isn't even out of the question.
Pritchard’s on-ball D yesterday was very good, especially frustrating Siakim’s handle at the top of the key and just generally being a pest. He had one anticipation steal where it looked like he had three feet of vertical.

As long as Jimmy Butler isn’t posting him up, he’s at least average.
 

lovegtm

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PJ Washington at 15ppg probably gets a little more money.

I suspect Brad is comfortable betting on RFA not rewarding 6'6" high-end complimentary players that average 9pts. PBS will use Grant happy talk to scare teams off (unlike the PHX/Ayton stone-cold approach). That should also slightly dampen his market.

Unless Charlotte thinks bringing the local kid back makes sense, Grant could have a similar crappy RFA experience as Marcus Smart


Yep. Until somebody values Payton as a player that has averaged 13mpg over 29 playoff games the last 2 seasons and had the highest 3pt% the 2nd half of last season Brad should just keep him on the cheap.

If you're a tanking team, you could modestly extend this guy for 4yrs this summer. I think he has more value than a late first but that's probably my green goggles speaking.
Yeah, green goggles. The reasons you can't get a late 1st for PP are Desdmon Bane and Malcolm Brogdon. The former shows what you might get if you make the late pick, and the latter shows what you can get if you trade the late pick.
 

Devizier

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Yeah, green goggles. The reasons you can't get a late 1st for PP are Desdmon Bane and Malcolm Brogdon. The former shows what you might get if you make the late pick, and the latter shows what you can get if you trade the late pick.
Teams don’t sell those picks off like they did in the Rondo days. The outside chance of a rotation player is worth the small risk in committed dollars, even if it fails more often than not.
 

benhogan

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Nov 2, 2007
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Yeah, green goggles. The reasons you can't get a late 1st for PP are Desdmon Bane and Malcolm Brogdon. The former shows what you might get if you make the late pick, and the latter shows what you can get if you trade the late pick.
If I'm a team with a few Firsts (Charlotte, Utah, Knicks, Pacers, Orlando) I'd rather ADD a Payton Pritchard extended on a cheap deal than ADD another late first. Lots of rookie development at once is tricky.

For example, if Charlotte or Utah start aggressively selling their pricier stars (Rozier, Gordo, Oubre, Plumlee, Conley, Clarkson, Beasley, etc) adding PP would make all the sense in the world. Tanking isn't 100% just piling up picks, it's also about adding young, underutilized NBA players on cheap deals. Giving them minutes, more shots & manipulating the roster/cap. Increase that young player value (on those cheap deals) & potentially use in future deals over the next 12-18mths (see Vanderbilt). Rinse/repeat.

(in defense of late Danny ;) ) The Gobert & Mitchell deals weren't just brilliant because of the massive draft capital but the young player haul (Lauri, Kessler, JV). Makes me really appreciate the Brogdon deal even more with all the rubbish Brad included with that late First.
 

Humphrey

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Surprised Mazulla nor his assistants saw GW down; that turnover by Pritchard at the end of the ballgame never had to happen.
 

InstaFace

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I think we sometimes forget how hard it is to close NBA games, when 5 very large and very fast humans are trying their balls out to turn you over. The Celtics have been pretty good late in games this year. At a certain point, stuff just happens and you have to play.

We think of every turnover as avoidable, and missed shots as just a fact of life, but a certain amount of turnovers are just going to happen in a fast-paced sport at the highest levels of intensity.

I hope they'll incrementally improve, but I don't know that there's a ton of juice left to squeeze there.
Not only that, the whole design of the game - you can't carry the ball, you have to dribble it - is constructed with a view towards making it more exciting by incentivizing steals. It's a lot more fair (imo) for a fan to get upset about bad or intercepted passes, than it is about steals on the ground or resulting from a trap and double team.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Not only that, the whole design of the game - you can't carry the ball, you have to dribble it - is constructed with a view towards making it more exciting by incentivizing steals. It's a lot more fair (imo) for a fan to get upset about bad or intercepted passes, than it is about steals on the ground or resulting from a trap and double team.
I’ll go back to my decades old take about the length & athleticism of todays players outgrowing the court dimensions. The next game changer we may see are second units designed to press and trap during their entire rotation in the playoffs. Coming soon to an arena near you.
 

InstaFace

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When it rains, it pours. Payton Pritchard, I hope you and Derrick White are ready for 35-40 minutes each tomorrow.

Maybe they'll have Tatum back, in which case a starting lineup of White, Brown, Tatum, Grant and Al is still pretty formidable, and a heavy dose of Pritchard, Kornet and Hauser and lighter doses of Griffin and maybe even Davison will be counted on to get us through. Because Orlando sucks. But I would really hope for Brogdon, at least, to be back for Miami on Tuesday, because that's a pretty thin rotation to carry for back-to-backs.
 

HomeRunBaker

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When it rains, it pours. Payton Pritchard, I hope you and Derrick White are ready for 35-40 minutes each tomorrow.

Maybe they'll have Tatum back, in which case a starting lineup of White, Brown, Tatum, Grant and Al is still pretty formidable, and a heavy dose of Pritchard, Kornet and Hauser and lighter doses of Griffin and maybe even Davison will be counted on to get us through. Because Orlando sucks. But I would really hope for Brogdon, at least, to be back for Miami on Tuesday, because that's a pretty thin rotation to carry for back-to-backs.
Orlando is 12-9 since their 5-20 start when they were decimated with injuries. The Magic are more than formidable and the game is in Orlando where they’ve won 7 of 10…..they aren’t the Pistons or Rockets