2022-2023 General Celtics thread

HomeRunBaker

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TL's skillset is one that's so rare, I'd actually be far more surprised if a system was able to account for it. It's not merely rim protection, it's the deterrence threat of rim protection. It's not merely the blocks, it's the deterrent threat of being blocked (in humiliating fashion), all of which causes attackers to decline that option and pull back to make a new plan, costing time and probably expected score on the possession. And then, when someone posts up on him who can actually back him down or pull off a sky hook, they can get that on him - which is more easily noted by systems. I'd say we should understand that conclusion, in other words, while also understanding why it's wrong and has to be systematically wrong.
I have him as a similar defensive skillset to prime Gobert except the latter defends much better vs low post scorers as they can quickly power over TL easier than Gobert. A poor man’s Gobert is always going to be one of the better defensive bigs in the game.
 

chilidawg

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Someone please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, but my understanding is that these stats are normalized to 0 being “average NBA minutes”.

Since obviously the best players get the most minutes, there are going to more negative than positive DARKO/LEBRON players in the NBA if you include the entire roster.

Put another way, if your rotation bench guys are close to zero that’s actually pretty good. Not giving minutes to the -2 and worse disaster guys is very impressive.

Grant seems pretty good for a 7-8th man to me, but overall not giving any better than average NBA minutes. So his rating tracks for me.
That seems about right.
 

benhogan

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Will Hardy is trolling Wolves Nation at the Target Center this afternoon

Playing through two rookies, one of which they received in the Gobert trade

1. Walker Kessler 20pts/ 21 rebounds / 4 assists/ 2 blocks
2. Agbaji 17pts
 
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HomeRunBaker

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Will Hardy is trolling Wolves Nation at the Target Center this afternoon

Playing through two rookies, one of which they received in the Gobert trade

1. Walker Kessler 20pts/ 21 rebounds / 4 assists/ 2 blocks
2. Agbaji 17pts
They have both been getting regular minutes, Agbaji most recently w couple guys out, but players have games like this circled. Agbaji, even on the cusp of the rotation without the injuries likely would have been given minutes by Hardy know this.
 

benhogan

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They have both been getting regular minutes, Agbaji most recently w couple guys out, but players have games like this circled. Agbaji, even on the cusp of the rotation without the injuries likely would have been given minutes by Hardy know this.
That disaster of a deal is going to reverberate for over a decade. Minnesota didn't even get a 1-yr sugar high
 

benhogan

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Well, this really sucks. Wouldn't they have video/audio evidence if people were screaming that within earshot of the court?

Can't imagine the Celtic players would stand for it either. Security would point/toss out fans screaming garbage like that, right?

Draymond Green admitted that the environment in TD Garden during The Finals impacted his play in the series. Green said on his podcast in November that he was repeatedly called racist names throughout the three games played in Boston.

"It was such a beautiful thing," Green told ESPN of closing out the series in Boston in Game 6. "It's not something they hadn't experienced before. So I think it's great that they experienced it from us. With Steph Curry doing what Steph Curry does and the guy they chose to call the N-word. It was beautiful."


https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/270053/Draymond-Green-Racist-Chants-In-Boston-Impacted-My-Play-In-Finals
 

lovegtm

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Well, this really sucks. Wouldn't they have video/audio evidence if people were screaming that within earshot of the court?

Can't imagine the Celtic players would stand for it either. Security would point/toss out fans screaming garbage like that, right?

Draymond Green admitted that the environment in TD Garden during The Finals impacted his play in the series. Green said on his podcast in November that he was repeatedly called racist names throughout the three games played in Boston.

"It was such a beautiful thing," Green told ESPN of closing out the series in Boston in Game 6. "It's not something they hadn't experienced before. So I think it's great that they experienced it from us. With Steph Curry doing what Steph Curry does and the guy they chose to call the N-word. It was beautiful."


https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/270053/Draymond-Green-Racist-Chants-In-Boston-Impacted-My-Play-In-Finals
Color me extraordinarily skeptical.
 
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Color me extraordinarily skeptical.
Green is not a reliable narrator, and who knows what actually happened. But even if it’s 99% bullshit, if I’m the Celtics organization, I treat it as true and take every action I can to root it out, whether that’s applying even more vigilance court side, imposing harsher and more permanent penalties for fan misbehavior, PSAs during games, whatever it is. Just eradicate it completely.
 

lovegtm

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Green is not a reliable narrator, and who knows what actually happened. But even if it’s 99% bullshit, if I’m the Celtics organization, I treat it as true and take every action I can to root it out, whether that’s applying even more vigilance court side, imposing harsher and more permanent penalties for fan misbehavior, PSAs during games, whatever it is. Just eradicate it completely.
I can already tell that we're going to want to split this out into a separate thread.
 

The Social Chair

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Celtics players like Marcus Smart and Jaylen Brown have said they've been called slurs over the years a few times. That part is not unbelievable.

But huge throngs of the crowd were yelling slurs and none of the Warriors and Celtics players, coaching staff, and officials mentioned it at the time? Or the ESPN crew? This isn't Fenway where a player is isolated in right field. I'm pretty skeptical too considering Green might be thinking about the history books and trying to excuse his horrid play.
 

InstaFace

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Draymond first said this back in November. But yeah if it happened "repeatedly", surely there is at least one instance that was caught by a mic or remarked upon contemporaneously, right Draymond?

It's not like it would be unbelievable if it happened - hell, Bruins fans have said some ugly shit to Joel Ward and PK Subban. It just seems unlikely that it happened in this instance, to anything near the degree he described. There's 100 mics listening in there, not one picked up an N-word or another slur?

Let me see what we've got for recent history:

- Mar 2016: Reporter sees some fans racially abusing Jose Calderon; he and other fans give them shit right back and get the perpetrators ejected.
- Mar 2019: Fan banned for 2 years for being verbally abusive to GSW's DeMarcus Cousins; Cousins had said he'd used a racial taunt under his breath, investigation found verbal abuse but couldn't prove that, so ban was for 2 years rather than lifetime.
- Dec 2019: Gilbert Arenas relates a very-believable story of a young fan racially abusing him, he makes it a playful game with the kid, ends up pointing out he's wearing a Pierce jersey, and ends up making the kid an Arenas fan.
- Feb 2020: Marc Spears interviews many current and former players on the subject, retells the ugly history from the 60s and 70s, Bill Russell, but then Pierce changing KG's mind about it. Perkins quote: “I never dealt with any racism one time in eight years". Avery Bradley said his brother had a racist incident at a Bruins game. Jaylen and Jayson both say they've never heard anything.
- Oct 2020: Marcus Smart writes in the Players Tribune, mentions the incident "a few years back" at a crosswalk while he was driving home after a game: woman (with her two kids, and wearing an IT4 jersey) calls him the N-word
- May 2021: Kyrie Irving says he expects to get racist remarks when he returns to Boston in the playoffs. Marcus Smart says he's "heard a couple things" from the fans in his time there. Jaylen Brown did not say he'd experienced it, but did make some poignant remarks about how racism is bigger than a playoff game and trying to use it for sympathy is lame. A few months later, Irving was almost hit by a thrown bottle, and the fan was arrested.
- July 2022: Lebron James is asked why he hates Boston, responds "Because they're racist as fuck". Says he once had a beer thrown at him as he left a game. Is mostly talking about the intensity of the fan opposition, though, and doesn't give any specifics about racial abuse.
- Sep 2022: Big Baby Davis says "they were never racist to me", implying he heard it directed at opposing players. Gilbert Arenas responds, tells a story about Virginia. Seriously though, Arenas is making a fan out of me, what a guy.
- Sep 2022: Stephen A Smith implies that the Celtics were racist to leak the Ime Udoka suspension for philandering when he could say the same about a bunch of other sports figures. Which given that the Udoka story has been one of absolute omerta on the part of the Celtics, falls kinda flat to me.

Seems to me like in the post-KG era of Celtics fans, any accusations of them racially abusing opponents are just rumor and innuendo echoing "well everybody knows that Boston _____" rather than any personal experience. The two times it happened, it resulted in ejections and bans and made headlines, and if you do a search for any other team you're going to find an equal or larger rate of shit like that. Everyone else is just echoing "what they've heard" about Boston being some egregiously racist environment. And I'm sorry, Lebron, but Boston fans wearing a "Fuck LBJ" tshirt does not make them "racist as fuck", and even line-crossing unacceptable shit like throwing a beer doesn't, either.

So yeah, I'll say I think the likeliest explanation is: Draymond is just mad that the Garden was chanting "Fuck you Draymond", as was his wife, and he wanted to take it to another level to generate some sympathy.
 

NomarsFool

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Color me extraordinarily skeptical.
When I've been at the TD Garden, I feel like I can hear anybody within 20 feet of me discussing what they are going to have for breakfast the next day. So, I find it hard to believe there wouldn't be dozens of witnesses.

I'm not saying Draymond is making it up. I'm sure he thinks he heard what he thought he heard. But, I'm very skeptical someone actually said what he thinks he heard.
 

Jimbodandy

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This is the narrative either way. Just got to live with it, behave appropriately, and encourage and support the teams' efforts to ban and prosecute and yank season tickets and whatever levers that they have at their disposal to eliminate this actually happening as much as possible.
 

The Social Chair

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It's kind of crazy that a part-owner of the Red Sox called the fans "racist as fuck" and it didn't turn into a story at all.
 

Spelunker

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It's kind of crazy that a part-owner of the Red Sox called the fans "racist as fuck" and it didn't turn into a story at all.
Boston fans aren't necessarily more racist, they're just much more reflexively defensive about it.

Which kinda ends up being effectively more racist.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Green is not a reliable narrator, and who knows what actually happened. But even if it’s 99% bullshit, if I’m the Celtics organization, I treat it as true and take every action I can to root it out, whether that’s applying even more vigilance court side, imposing harsher and more permanent penalties for fan misbehavior, PSAs during games, whatever it is. Just eradicate it completely.
If it happened, the Celtics know. The players know. I have a hard time believing there would not be immediate and strong corroboration.
 

joe dokes

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I could do without the F-U chant. So I hope something more creative comes up. That said, I'll have the sound off and some David Crosby on.
 

djbayko

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Wait, his wife was chanting “Fuck you Draymond”? Not saying he didn’t deserve it, but no kidding he would want some sympathy.
That’s it. I choose to believe this version of events and I’m bot clicking on Instaface’s link to verify.

Also, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with FU ____chants. It’s the playoffs and you’re the enemy. Go ahead and cry about it.
 

TripleOT

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Euclis20

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An underrated moment was immediately after the overturned OOB call (2:19 left in the 4th, Warriors up 4), Steph misses a really good look from 3, Wiggins tips the ball back out right to Smart, who throws a FT line to FT line pass to Tatum who gets the easy open dunk. Curry probably hits that shot 50% of the time, and it would've been a 7 point GS lead with just over 2 minutes, putting the Celtics in close to desperation mode. Instead the deficit is shrunk to 2, and the stage is set for the final seconds. Smart/Tatum had some really brutal plays at the end of 4th quarter and OT, but they made it count there.
 

BigSoxFan

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An underrated moment was immediately after the overturned OOB call (2:19 left in the 4th, Warriors up 4), Steph misses a really good look from 3, Wiggins tips the ball back out right to Smart, who throws a FT line to FT line pass to Tatum who gets the easy open dunk. Curry probably hits that shot 50% of the time, and it would've been a 7 point GS lead with just over 2 minutes, putting the Celtics in close to desperation mode. Instead the deficit is shrunk to 2, and the stage is set for the final seconds. Smart/Tatum had some really brutal plays at the end of 4th quarter and OT, but they made it count there.
Tatum’s drive and dish to Horford down 4 with 1:39 or so to go was also a good one. That wasn’t an easy pass to make on the move and a turnover probably would have been lethal.
 

jablo1312

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I know Tatum wore down the most by the end of last season, but they need to do everything they can to preserve al as much as possible for may and june. And start thinking about how they'll approach replacing his critical role as he gets closer to retirement. What a player.
 

Spelunker

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I know Tatum wore down the most by the end of last season, but they need to do everything they can to preserve al as much as possible for may and june. And start thinking about how they'll approach replacing his critical role as he gets closer to retirement. What a player.
Planning for the future is generally a good thing, but that seems a bit extreme.
 

radsoxfan

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Should Marcus be in the crunch time 5? Is Rob not one of the top 5?

Marcus, Al, Rob, Brogdon.... one of those 4 has to sit. Smart makes soooo many bad decisions. Tough call for Joe.

Will be interesting to see how it shakes out.
 

Euclis20

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Should Marcus be in the crunch time 5? Is Rob not one of the top 5?

Marcus, Al, Rob, Brogdon.... one of those 4 has to sit. Smart makes soooo many bad decisions. Tough call for Joe.

Will be interesting to see how it shakes out.
It is and it isn't. I think you can write Smart's name in pen for crunch time minutes, along with Brown/Tatum. Whether he deserves it or not is a good question, but if he's healthy and not in foul trouble Smart is guaranteed to be on the court in crunch time. The rest of the rotation (at least one of Rob/Al, then some combination of White/Brogdon/Grant) will depend on need and whose playing well that night. It's really an incredibly versatile group, all 8 guys are legit two-way players. It's a luxury to that the decision is so difficult.
 

jablo1312

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I know Tatum wore down the most by the end of last season, but they need to do everything they can to preserve al as much as possible for may and june. And start thinking about how they'll approach replacing his critical role as he gets closer to retirement. What a player.
He's not more important then tatum or brown obv, but the ability to play 5 out for stretches when necessary/advantageous while having a credible big defender is huge against elite competition, which is what this team should have in mind when constructing the roster.
 

Eddie Jurak

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What a weird, wild, at times very frustrating game. This game was a little closer to a playoff atmosphere, which maybe led to some bad decisions by the Celtics. There were also some disastrous officiating calls that all seemed to go Golden State's way.

The first quarter was interesting because the Celtics went big (starting Al, Rob, and a returning Brown while bringing White off the bench) and GS countered by going small (starting Poole over Looney, meaning Draymond was at C and Wiggins at the 4). Neither side shot well and the two sides played to a stalemate, ending the quarter with the Celtics down a point, 26-25. Al Horford bullied Wggins inside, scoring 10 points and adding 5 rebounds and a great chase down block of Poole, maybe playing his best game of the whole season. The Warriors did their scoring via transition and second chance points - they got 4 offensive rebounds in the quarter, 3 of them over an out of position Rob, otherwise Celtics would have come out of this with a lead. The Celtics were so into the playing big thing that they went to Kornet in the late first/early second, and he gave them 7 decent minutes.

The Celtics started to open up a lead in the second, and then lost it. The Celtics opened up a 10 point lead, GS cut it to 8, and then a ball Tatum lost clearly went out of a Warrior but the refs called it the other way, leading to a Play 3 to cut the lead to 5. The Warriors eventually tied the score at 47 and then at 52. With the Celtics up 2 on a Rob putback, Curry turns the ball over to Tatum with 3 seconds left, then steals it back from Tatum with 1 second left and swishes a 3 from beyond halfcourt to go into havetime with a 1 point lead. Rob was an offensive force for the Celtics in this quarter, scoring 9 points on 4-4 shooting mostly on the strength of his offensive rebounding. Golden State's comeback was helped by 6 Boston turnovers, 2 each by Tatum, Smart, and Rob.

The Celtics transition defense took the third quarter off, and that along with some breakdowns led to the Warriors building their lead up to 11 with 2 minutes left. The Celtics comeback is started by Rob getting an offensive rebound out to Tatum for a 3, and the Warriors lead is cut to 7 at the quarter.

The Celtics 4th quarter comeback was keyed by Brown and Tatum finally both getting going, though their lead was nearly erased by a late game Tatum turnoverfest. Brown came into the 4th quarter 1-9 from the field. In the OT he shot 3-6 for 7 points and added 6 rebounds. Tatum shot 3 of 7 for 8 points and 5 rebounds. With just over 3 minutes to go, the Celtics are down by 2 and Tatum gets the rebound, eager to start the break, makes a terrible pass that is picked off by Poole who dunks. The Celtics cut the lead to 1 point, but with 1:14 to go, after a Horford block, Wiggins steals the ball from Tatum. He misses a 3, but with 36 seconds left, a Tatum pass is picked off by Poole leading to a Curry layup and a 3-point GS lead. Jaylen Brown drills a three to tie the game and send to OT.

The Celtics comes out great in the OT, eventusally building up an 8-point lead, and then a terrible call and some awful ballhandling in the final 36 seconds almost blows the game. Celtics scored 15 points in the OT, led by Tatum and Brown with 5 each. Down by 8, Horford is called for fouling Wiggins on a 3-point shot attempt where he never fucking touched him. Mazzulla challenged, and somehow, the refs imagined some contact and let the call stand. Earlier in the game, a ball went through Browns legs and out of bounds, the initial call was a Warriors turnover, but Kerr challenged and the call was reversed despite no clear video of the ball touching Brown. They should get rid of reply if they cannot handle replay reviews in a consistent way. Anyway, Wiggins hits 2 of 3 to cut the lead to 6. Then Smart turns it over (passes it to Draymand) and DiVincenzo hits a three. Smart almost turns it over again and the Celtics run a bad offensive set that ends with Horford missing a long jumper, taken at the last possible moment to avoid a 24 second violation, with 4 seconds left. Jordan Poole attempts a halfcourt three to tie it and misses. Game over, Celtics win a nailbiter that could have been an easier win.
 

128

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From The Athletic:

For the first time this season, the Celtics won a game while shooting worse than 42 percent from the field. They were 0-5 in such situations entering Thursday.
 

lovegtm

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That would have been a 10-15 point loss in last year's Finals. Seeing a lot of mental progress, and a talent edge for the Celtics with Rob out there.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Horford, BTW, played his best game of the season. Owned the first quarter and had some kety baskets and key defense down the stretch (20 points/10 rebounds/3 blocks).

Brogdon played 36 minutes, including 25 minutes (the entire 4th and OT) int he second half. His numbers weren't great for him (5-15 shooting, 2 assists) but without his ballhandling the Celtics would likely have fumbled this one away.
 

lovegtm

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Horford, BTW, played his best game of the season. Owned the first quarter and had some kety baskets and key defense down the stretch (20 points/10 rebounds/3 blocks).

Brogdon played 36 minutes, including 25 minutes (the entire 4th and OT) int he second half. His numbers weren't great for him (5-15 shooting, 2 assists) but without his ballhandling the Celtics would likely have fumbled this one away.
Yeah, Brogdon missed some layups he normally makes. The Celtics had a really weird shooting night: it wasn't just 3s, they were missing shots inside they make a lot. Some of it was defense, some of it was bad luck, and some of it was probably nerves.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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They really need to change the replay system to move away from the NFL "definitive proof" standard. Ok, so you think there's definitive video evidence that Al brushed Wiggins' elbow, but should that be a foul? Having replay confirm bad calls on the court is beyond stupid.
 

lexrageorge

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Should Marcus be in the crunch time 5? Is Rob not one of the top 5?

Marcus, Al, Rob, Brogdon.... one of those 4 has to sit. Smart makes soooo many bad decisions. Tough call for Joe.

Will be interesting to see how it shakes out.
Smart will normally play. He had some bad turnovers late, but his defense is too important in crunch time.

...Smart almost turns it over again and the Celtics run a bad offensive set that ends with Horford missing a long jumper, taken at the last possible moment to avoid a 24 second violation, with 4 seconds left. Jordan Poole attempts a halfcourt three to tie it and misses. Game over, Celtics win a nailbiter that could have been an easier win.
That missed shot by Horford was a heads up play. A shot clock violation would have given the Warriors/Steph a chance to tie the game. The missed shot ate up valuable fractions and even though Golden State was awarded the rebound when the ball went out of bounds, they had no timeouts left to advance the ball, which made it an almost impossible shot.
 

lovegtm

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Smart will normally play. He had some bad turnovers late, but his defense is too important in crunch time.


That missed shot by Horford was a heads up play. A shot clock violation would have given the Warriors/Steph a chance to tie the game. The missed shot ate up valuable fractions and even though Golden State was awarded the rebound when the ball went out of bounds, they had no timeouts left to advance the ball, which made it an almost impossible shot.
Yup, and he was unlucky it went out of bounds. Would have been completely impossible to get a real shot if it had stayed in play.
 

benhogan

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Last night was Exhibit A of why Al Horford needs to play the 4. Playing BIG let them still compete in a rock fight where Brown/Tatum (team) shot like absolute crap along with turnovers. Good win for the teams' psyche. The JAYs now know they can play awful and still win. Less pressure on their shoulders. 63-47 rebounding edge was the difference

We also saw playoff rotations and minutes. No Hauser or PP, but we saw Kornet for 8 minutes. He's clearly the 9th man in the rotation. He's probably OK but we're majorly screwed if either Rob/Al go down.
 

chilidawg

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Last night was Exhibit A of why Al Horford needs to play the 4. Playing BIG let them still compete in a rock fight where Brown/Tatum (team) shot like absolute crap along with turnovers. Good win for the teams' psyche. The JAYs now know they can play awful and still win. Less pressure on their shoulders.
But in clutch time it was one of Al or Rob playing, not both. Lineups with Rob and Al (I don't think it really matter who is the 4 or 5) were +3 in the first, -9 in the second, and -3 in the 3rd. From the mid 3rd on only one or the other played, and we didn't see Kornet in the 2nd half. I think defensively they match up better with GS going smaller. Al Horford was a stud all night long.

Fun game, haven't been that wound up watching in awhile. C's missed open shots and carelessly turned it over, yet dug in and made some clutch plays, got it to OT and got the win. Seems like State still is in their heads, but they had the talent level to overcome that. They can certainly play better and that's encouraging. Defense in the 4th and OT was outstanding.