2022-2023 General Celtics thread

benhogan

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Grant had a key 3 that tied the game in the Celtics penultimate possession. A lot of was asked of the deep bench, and they did make a valiant effort on the road of a B2B.
Grant's step-back 3 was impressive, his stroke is mustard. He's a tremendous role player. The last 2 games were the perfect time for him to cash in on RFA. BUT foul trouble and a disciplined Miami team made sure he couldn't put up his signature Corner3s in volume. He'll need a massive postseason to get an unmatchable RFA offer. Brad played it right.

The team gave effort, other than Tatum's penchant for not getting back in transition D after a turnover, block or missed shot. It's almost become shocking when he doesn't stomp, complain to a ref with arm gestures, or flat-out stand there staring straight ahead. He lets the other team run out 5 on 4 a couple of times a game. Sometimes his cherry-picking has led to quick, easy baskets further ingraining this bad habit. A coach needs to show him some video, since JT did it late & close, letting Bam run by him for an uncontested slam.

Grant & Tatum have been two of my favorite players over the last 4 seasons. But as the good book says To whom much is given, much will be required

Good argument there for upgrading our depth at the wing? :p
Ha. I was hoping for more minutes from Luke last night. It's funny because the more he plays the less he embarrasses himself. You never know when we'll have to lean heavily on him if Tl or Al go down for an extended period.

Grant is a perfect role player and is fantastic wing depth, especially when he plays the complementary role of a low-volume/ highly efficient shooter. The days of him not playing next to a Center are over, thank gawd. Hauser/Pritchard are good deep ball-handling and wing depth on reasonable deals. BUT not ready for prime-time players in Boston yet.

These last two weeks hammered home what this team needs to add in a trade or the buyout market IMO
 

Jimbodandy

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I know we’ve spoken about Bamba previously. Every time I see him I’m trying to consider options to beat the Joe Barry Carroll/JBC, Joe Barely Cares acronym. What can we create out of MFB?
Same, man. Every time his name pops up, I post "No Bamba".

Being tall is the last skill to deteriorate, but adding Mo would be subtraction by addition. Juju is good with this team. Even after a couple of games where they didn't get off the plane, I'm not worried. Everyone is on the same page. Mo plays matador defense for 20 minutes and then leaves his guy to swat a ball into the 10th row and do a Chris Canty dance. Hard pass.
 

Euclis20

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Gay is at the Blake Griffin stage of his career. The type of veteran who provide a presence off the court but not going to really help you on it except for emergencies.
Man you aren't kidding. His scoring efficiency numbers have cratered this year, TS% of .439 (it was .539 last year). It's also somewhat remarkable that a guy in year 17 (1100 games played) has been in the playoffs just 3 times, never out of the first round.
 

Bunt4aTriple

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He is also paid in millions upon millions of dollars. They bought the C's for 200 million 20 years ago. It is worth what? 5 billion now?
Question: I'm sure the numbers are opaque, but how would the Celtics', or any other franchise's, value be reduced by renting and not owning? I know the TV deals are a huge piece of the pie, but does it not factor in when you're a marquee franchise? I'd assume there's a considerable hit to operating income, too.
 

BigSoxFan

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Question: I'm sure the numbers are opaque, but how would the Celtics', or any other franchise's, value be reduced by renting and not owning? I know the TV deals are a huge piece of the pie, but does it not factor in when you're a marquee franchise? I'd assume there's a considerable hit to operating income, too.
Doesn’t make a huge difference. The Sixers are worth $3.15B per Forbes and they don’t own their arena although they’re looking into building a new one at the end of their Wells Fargo lease.
 

Bunt4aTriple

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Doesn’t make a huge difference. The Sixers are worth $3.15B per Forbes and they don’t own their arena although they’re looking into building a new one at the end of their Wells Fargo lease.
Are you aware of any specifics on the leases? Do the landlords get rent and all/most/some concessions? Do renters end up relying solely on TV money?

Apologies for all the questions. I'm not sure how to research this stuff.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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He is also paid in millions upon millions of dollars. They bought the C's for 200 million 20 years ago. It is worth what? 5 billion now?
Sarver purchased Phoenix in 2004 for a then record $401mm and they just sold for ~$4B. So, yeah, given the C's franchise profile in the NBA as well as their media market, that ~$360 Boston went for is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of $5B. We may be getting paid in enjoyment but Wyc is getting far, far more than that.

These sports franchises, assuming they are run reasonably well, can really throw off some insane returns. People who already had their 10 baggers getting another 10 bagger type of trades. And there are a ton of other benefits. Like if your interim head coach fails to use timeouts correctly during the second game of a road back to back in late January, you can fire them and replace them with ChatGPT. Or you can simply enjoy your court-side seats and all kinds of influence.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Question: I'm sure the numbers are opaque, but how would the Celtics', or any other franchise's, value be reduced by renting and not owning? I know the TV deals are a huge piece of the pie, but does it not factor in when you're a marquee franchise? I'd assume there's a considerable hit to operating income, too.
From my understsnding, Wyc doesn’t get any of the concession, parking or other ancillary revenue that game day events in the arena produce. Those aren’t peanuts (pun intended).
 

BigSoxFan

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Are you aware of any specifics on the leases? Do the landlords get rent and all/most/some concessions? Do renters end up relying solely on TV money?

Apologies for all the questions. I'm not sure how to research this stuff.
A lot of times it’s an operating lease, like what the Devils have with the Newark Housing Authority. They pay annual rent but generally keep all of the revenue associated with the operations. I think they even got out of paying real estate taxes on the arena.
 

HomeRunBaker

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A lot of times it’s an operating lease, like what the Devils have with the Newark Housing Authority. They pay annual rent but generally keep all of the revenue associated with the operations. I think they even got out of paying real estate taxes on the arena.
I know for certain that the Wizards do not keep operations revenues as I have a friend close with the organization (at least up to 6-7 years ago) and I know years ago the arena owners had a stranglehold on the teams…..but maybe that has changed as the NBA product has given owners more leverage in these negotiations.
 

BigSoxFan

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I know for certain that the Wizards do not keep operations revenues as I have a friend close with the organization (at least up to 6-7 years ago) and I know years ago the arena owners had a stranglehold on the teams…..but maybe that has changed as the NBA product has given owners more leverage in these negotiations.
Yeah, I suspect every arrangement is different. I know the Devils got a real sweetheart deal as part of a never ending effort to make Newark less of a shit hole. When it’s a private/private transaction, I would presume the terms are less favorable for the NBA teams.
 

Jimbodandy

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Yeah, I suspect every arrangement is different. I know the Devils got a real sweetheart deal as part of a never ending effort to make Newark less of a shit hole. When it’s a private/private transaction, I would presume the terms are less favorable for the NBA teams.
Having been to Newark, I'd agree with the "never ending" part.
 

Koufax

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My recollection is that the Celtics pay no rent and get no squeeze from concessions. That's what Delaware North lives for.
 

lexrageorge

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I recall the late 1970s when Delaware North had such onerous lease terms that the Celtics were looking to move to Rockingham Park in Salem. Then again, it really wasn't until Larry Bird arrived on the scene that the Celtics started regularly selling out the arena, so the team had much less leverage than they have now.
 

Jimbodandy

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Yeah normally I'd click out of that one verse and chorus in, after I got the idea... but the whole thing was strangely compelling. Even if the guy can't rap to save his life.

Corey Booker has a lot to answer for. Could probably have our own V&N thread on Newark.
First time I flew through Newark for business was during the period when I still smoked but smoking was outlawed in the domestic terminals. I stepped outside to the smoking area and was hit with a wall of sewage smell. I said out loud to nobody in particular "What the fuck is that smell?", and another smoker just casually said "Newark" without looking away from his book.

That's not to say that the hookers and shit don't matter, but the smell is unique.
 

Koufax

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I recall the late 1970s when Delaware North had such onerous lease terms that the Celtics were looking to move to Rockingham Park in Salem. Then again, it really wasn't until Larry Bird arrived on the scene that the Celtics started regularly selling out the arena, so the team had much less leverage than they have now.
Red Auerbach used to get calls from the predecessor of Delaware North after Celtics games. The caller had no interest in the outcome of the game, only in the amount of beer sold.
 

benhogan

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First time I flew through Newark for business was during the period when I still smoked but smoking was outlawed in the domestic terminals. I stepped outside to the smoking area and was hit with a wall of sewage smell. I said out loud to nobody in particular "What the fuck is that smell?", and another smoker just casually said "Newark" without looking away from his book.

That's not to say that the hookers and shit don't matter, but the smell is unique.
Growing up in Essex County in the 1970's as a Red Sox fan made fraternity hazing a picnic
 

jmcc5400

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First time I flew through Newark for business was during the period when I still smoked but smoking was outlawed in the domestic terminals. I stepped outside to the smoking area and was hit with a wall of sewage smell. I said out loud to nobody in particular "What the fuck is that smell?", and another smoker just casually said "Newark" without looking away from his book.

That's not to say that the hookers and shit don't matter, but the smell is unique.
I always thought that was the smell from the Budweiser factory adjacent to the airport.
 

nighthob

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First time I flew through Newark for business was during the period when I still smoked but smoking was outlawed in the domestic terminals. I stepped outside to the smoking area and was hit with a wall of sewage smell. I said out loud to nobody in particular "What the fuck is that smell?", and another smoker just casually said "Newark" without looking away from his book.

That's not to say that the hookers and shit don't matter, but the smell is unique.
I had that same experience 44 years ago. Only I was still on the bloody plane and my brothers and I were wrinkling our noses and one of us asked aloud “Did someone shit their pants?” and a more experienced traveler told us “Nope, that’s just Newark. Hopefully your layover is short.”

Sadly we had two and a half hours to wait for the hostage rescue tea… errr … the connecting flight to leave. That was the most depressing airport stay ever. Everyone just quietly waiting and suffering praying for their connection to leave on time. It wasn’t nearly that bad the last time I went through Newark 20 years ago. But it still wasn’t pleasant.
 

Was (Not Wasdin)

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Whatever the Celtics lease terms are with Delaware North, they are favorable enough that the Celtics extended their lease in 2021 for 15 years, through the 2036 season.

https://www.yahoo.com/video/celtics-extend-td-garden-lease-220317429.html

I remember being surprised when they did this, as there was some talk they wanted a basketball only facility. But this seems like a smart move-Boston being Boston, it will take years to get their own arena built if they want to go that route, and this lease will cover that period. It took Delaware north something like 10 years from permitting to opening for TD Garden.
 

Imbricus

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And in this corner, we have the Great Disappearing Grant Williams: 2 for 8 from the field, 2 rebounds (1 fewer than Pritchard despite playing 9 more minutes), 2 turnovers, 4 fouls, -18 +/-.
 

benhogan

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And in this corner, we have the Great Disappearing Grant Williams: 2 for 8 from the field, 2 rebounds (1 fewer than Pritchard despite playing 9 more minutes), 2 turnovers, 4 fouls, -18 +/-.
Grant should have been the high-energy guy off the bench to slow down Julius Randles rim runs...sadly not
 

HomeRunBaker

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Are lane violations on free throws just not a thing anymore?
Harden was called for one when Claxton was at the line two nights ago. I don’t think it’s not a thing, I think with so much tape on players they are now better than ever in timing their footwork so their foot is either behind the line or in the air on release.

Edit: Wow that still shot shows a blatant violation by two players.
 
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lexrageorge

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Harden was called for one when Claxton was at the line two nights ago. I don’t think it’s not a thing, I think with so much tape on players they are now better than ever in timing their footwork so their foot is either behind the line or in the air on release.
Can watch the replay of the 2 FT's on nba.com.

On the first one, Randle almost steps into the lane just as the ball is leaving Brown's hand, but catches himself while looking off balance. Something that is always let go, as it should be.

On the second FT, Randle and Sims are both well over the inside line by the time the Brown shoots. Not sure why the officials would or should let that go, because it's a clear violation as per the rules.

60505
 
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benhogan

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Can watch the replay of the 2 FT's on nba.com.

On the first one, Randle almost steps into the lane just as the ball is leaving Brown's hand, but catches himself while looking off balance. Something that is always let go, as it should be.

On the second FT, Randle and Sims are both well over the inside line by the time the Brown shoots. Not sure why the officials would or should let that go, because it's a clear violation as per the rules.

View attachment 60505
Should take a look at the 2-minute report to see if that's legit (or just an NBA PR smokescreen) since that is a clear violation of the rules
 

RorschachsMask

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When we got Brogdon, I was hoping the combination of him+Jaylen would be able to handle the non Tatum minutes better than in the past. It just hasn’t been the case though, the image below is their net rating with JB/MB on, and Tatum off.

Just from watching the games, it seems that too much of the time, we use Jaylen to initiate the offense while camping Brogdon off ball. It’s 50 games in, so I’m not sure if that’s going to change now.

C418BCB8-241E-4EB7-9F59-45BF2EE63055.png
 

benhogan

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When we got Brogdon, I was hoping the combination of him+Jaylen would be able to handle the non Tatum minutes better than in the past. It just hasn’t been the case though, the image below is their net rating with JB/MB on, and Tatum off.

Just from watching the games, it seems that too much of the time, we use Jaylen to initiate the offense while camping Brogdon off ball. It’s 50 games in, so I’m not sure if that’s going to change now.

View attachment 60521
I'll never understand constantly using Tatum & Brown to initiate the offense with Smart, White, or Brogdon on the floor. Brown/Tatum slowly get the offense into action, while letting the defense dig in showing help in the lane.

Agreed, 50 games in and that appears to be their approach to half-court offense. Worked the first couple of months, but that offensive efficiency was probably due to unsustainable 3pt shooting across the board.
 

RorschachsMask

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I'll never understand constantly using Tatum & Brown to initiate the offense with Smart, White, or Brogdon on the floor. Brown/Tatum slowly get the offense into action, while letting the defense dig in showing help in the lane.

Agreed, 50 games in and that appears to be their approach to half-court offense. Worked the first couple of months, but that offensive efficiency was probably due to unsustainable 3pt shooting across the board.
The team with Tatum/Brogdon on and Jaylen off have dominated, FWIW. Whatever the staff has going on with them seems to be working. I’d rather use Tatum off ball more to help with the wear and tear, but at least he has the skill set. Using Jaylen on ball with Brogdon as a C&S guy makes zero sense to me, it’s too predictable.

4008F1ED-D745-4010-9D3C-F2044A5E6AB9.png
 

djbayko

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Harden was called for one when Claxton was at the line two nights ago. I don’t think it’s not a thing, I think with so much tape on players they are now better than ever in timing their footwork so their foot is either behind the line or in the air on release.

Edit: Wow that still shot shows a blatant violation by two players.
The fact that they call it occasionally is not evidence that they still call it consistently and correctly. I do agree that players are probably good at timing it, but blatant violations are very common and almost never get called.
 

RorschachsMask

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I just wasted a ton of time going through a bunch of lineup data on cleaning the glass, which filters out garbage time. This roster is too talented for the following numbers to be so extreme. Obviously the Rob pairings are small sample size, same with Hauser to a lesser extent.

Jaylen/White on, Tatum off: +7.4, 91st percentile. Pretty much any combination with those two out there have been pretty good, they are a really good fit together.

Jaylen/Hauser on, Tatum off: +15.4, 99th percentile. This was +30 in mid December, but as we all know, Hauser fell off a cliff, so not much to take from this.

Tatum on: +8.8, 94th percentile.
Tatum off: -0.4, 47th percentile.

Jaylen on, Tatum off: +1.9, 63th percentile.
Tatum on, Jaylen off: +15.5, 99th percentile.
Jaylen/Tatum both on: +4.9, 82nd percentile.

Jaylen/Brogdon on, Tatum off: -3.7, 29th percentile.
Tatum/Brogdon on, Jaylen off: +16.6, 99th percentile.

Smart/Jaylen/Al on, Tatum off: -2.7, 33rd percentile.
Smart/Tatum/Al on, Jaylen off: +21.9, 99th percentile

Smart/Jaylen on, Tatum off: -2.6, 34th percentile.
Smart/Tatum on, Jaylen off: +25.0, 100th percentile.

Al/Jaylen on, Tatum off: +1.3, 58th percentile.
Al/Tatum on, Jaylen off: +16.0, 99th percentile.

Rob/Jaylen on, Tatum off: +1.9, 63rd percentile.
Rob/Tatum on, Jaylen off: +14.1, 99th percentile.
 

benhogan

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I just wasted a ton of time going through a bunch of lineup data on cleaning the glass, which filters out garbage time. This roster is too talented for the following numbers to be so extreme. Obviously the Rob pairings are small sample size, same with Hauser to a lesser extent.

Jaylen/White on, Tatum off: +7.4, 91st percentile. Pretty much any combination with those two out there have been pretty good, they are a really good fit together.

Jaylen/Hauser on, Tatum off: +15.4, 99th percentile. This was +30 in mid December, but as we all know, Hauser fell off a cliff, so not much to take from this.

Tatum on: +8.8, 94th percentile.
Tatum off: -0.4, 47th percentile.

Jaylen on, Tatum off: +1.9, 63th percentile.
Tatum on, Jaylen off: +15.5, 99th percentile.
Jaylen/Tatum both on: +4.9, 82nd percentile.

Jaylen/Brogdon on, Tatum off: -3.7, 29th percentile.
Tatum/Brogdon on, Jaylen off: +16.6, 99th percentile.

Smart/Jaylen/Al on, Tatum off: -2.7, 33rd percentile.
Smart/Tatum/Al on, Jaylen off: +21.9, 99th percentile

Smart/Jaylen on, Tatum off: -2.6, 34th percentile.
Smart/Tatum on, Jaylen off: +25.0, 100th percentile.

Al/Jaylen on, Tatum off: +1.3, 58th percentile.
Al/Tatum on, Jaylen off: +16.0, 99th percentile.

Rob/Jaylen on, Tatum off: +1.9, 63rd percentile.
Rob/Tatum on, Jaylen off: +14.1, 99th percentile.
You'd look at that and immediately say Tatum is a lot better than Brown.

But it's a SSS & Jaylen has missed 6 games where the Celtics went 5-1 against some bad teams (5 games were on the road)
3 of those WINS were against Charlotte where Boston beat them by a total 63pts
a win against a KD-less Nets by 11pts
a win against the Pistons by 9pts
a loss to a Butler-less Heat by 3pts (where most of those combos were missing)

Tatum is better but it's closer than the On-Off pairings indicate
 

128

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LeBron listed as questionable and A.D. as probable for tomorrow nite in Boston. Can't see LeBron missing this one unless he's on crutches.
 
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HomeRunBaker

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LeBron listed as questionable and A.D. as probable for tomorrow nite in Boston. Can't see LeBron missing this one unless he's on crutches.
LeBron has been listed as Questionable on the initial injury report for the past month. He just played the back end of a B2B, I’m sure he’ll be playing tomorrow night.