2022-2023 General Celtics thread

RorschachsMask

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Espn started releasing their top 100 list, up until 25. The list is atrocious lol, but here’s where Celtics ranked.

99 Grant
87 Brogdon
70 Al
58 Rob
34 Smart.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/34552302/nbarank-2022-ranking-best-players-2022-23-100-26

CBS is a bit better of a list overall, and they have the whole top 100.

65 Al
63 Brogdon
56 Rob
45 Smart
19 Jaylen
9 Tatum

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-top-100-player-rankings-giannis-stephen-curry-kevin-durant-vie-for-no-1-lebron-james-slips/
 
Jimbodandy

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Interesting that ESPN used paired comparison and CBS used some kind of weighted mean (lightly weighted probably).

Paired comparison is a great technique, if the appropriate rigor is used (it probably wasn't). Regardless, that's a lot of top-100 players.
 
RorschachsMask

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Jimbodandy said:
Interesting that ESPN used paired comparison and CBS used some kind of weighted mean (lightly weighted probably).

Paired comparison is a great technique, if the appropriate rigor is used (it probably wasn't). Regardless, that's a lot of top-100 players.
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The idea of what espn tried makes sense, I just don’t think it worked. None of these lists will ever be close to perfect, but there’s some funky ass rankings on their list.
 
Jimbodandy

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RorschachsMask said:
The idea of what espn tried makes sense, I just don’t think it worked. None of these lists will ever be close to perfect, but there’s some funky ass rankings on their list.
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Yeah it's going to be tough to get a good enough sample of paired comparisons for it to be worthwhile. The CBS approach--when you have limited participation from people--will definitely be more accurate.

edit: FWIW, I've used paired comparisons with small sets of data, and it's fantastic.
 
Kliq

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I didn't find the ESPN list that bad; Marcus Smart is pretty high, but I expected it to be way worse. Why didn't you like it?
 
Ale Xander

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Both Deuce and Janos being more indispensable in that poll than Wyc is awesome
 
RorschachsMask

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Kliq said:
I didn't find the ESPN list that bad; Marcus Smart is pretty high, but I expected it to be way worse. Why didn't you like it?
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Wiggins at 32 feels way too high, I’d take Garland (46) above him without hesitation. Bane at 69 seems pretty low, especially with Poole at 55. Klay being top 40 is weird, don’t think he showed nearly enough for that. Smart seems too high, and a few other head scratchers.

I hate criticizing rankings, but it just seems all over the place.
 
R

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Well that’s some very unfortunate news….

Probably a clean up, meniscus trim, maybe remove some loose bodies.

Let’s hope the arthritis is not bad. Egh.
 
PedroKsBambino

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Timing and recurrence of need in that knee both somewhat worrisome.

Celts probably need to bite the bullet on a veteran big now; I've been ok with them seeing what Kornet. Kabengele, Vonleh etc do but they are really thin at the 5 now.

I know Hassan Whiteside has fans around here; I'd personally rather go Cody Zeller, but the possibility there's real minutes available for a while makes Whiteside a better gamble than before in my book. Too bad Theis is not eligble for Cs :)
 
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RedOctober3829

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PedroKsBambino said:
Timing and recurrence of need in that knee both somewhat worrisome.

Celts probably need to bite the bullet on a veteran big now; I've been ok with them seeing what Kornet. Kabengele, Vonleh etc do but they are really thin at the 5 now.

I know Hassan Whiteside has fans around here; I'd personally rather go Cody Zeller, but the possibility there's real minutes available for a while makes Whiteside a better gamble than before in my book. Too bad Theis is not eligble for Cs :)
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What about Dwight Howard?
 
Lazy vs Crazy

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My thought is if Kornet wasn't good enough to get a contract most of last year and never played once he did, he isn't good enough this year either, especially with the thinner front court. Al's a year older and wore down really bad at points in the season when he went too many minutes. They need to sign someone who can give reliable minutes.
 
PedroKsBambino

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RedOctober3829 said:
What about Dwight Howard?
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I personally don't have enough confidence in his head/how he plays with others to want to bother with him. I get he has had a couple years of being an effective bench guy, but I just worry about him on this team with a pretty young core. Others may worry less about that, I realize, as with Whiteside....
 
Light-Tower-Power

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Lazy vs Crazy said:
My thought is if Kornet wasn't good enough to get a contract most of last year and never played once he did, he isn't good enough this year either, especially with the thinner front court. Al's a year older and wore down really bad at points in the season when he went too many minutes. They need to sign someone who can give reliable minutes.
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Agree 100%. Kornet is a fine end of the bench garbage time big, but you can’t run him out there for meaningful minutes, even during the start of the regular season. It’s just unbelievable how this team cannot get over the injury hump. Hopefully no long term issues for Rob, but persistent knee issues for someone whose game is built on freak athleticism doesn’t seem great.
 
128

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Lazy vs Crazy said:
My thought is if Kornet wasn't good enough to get a contract most of last year and never played once he did, he isn't good enough this year either, especially with the thinner front court. Al's a year older and wore down really bad at points in the season when he went too many minutes. They need to sign someone who can give reliable minutes.
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I like the Cody Zeller idea.

EDIT: Scratch that.

View: https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1572335843599323138
 
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Sam Ray Not

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RorschachsMask said:
View: https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1572331343832391685?s=20&t=_RM2mlsC05GV02lNscsxhA
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Gabagool!!! We hardly knew ye...

On Timelord: man, that sucks. Love that guy. Can't help but wonder how different things might be if they had gone the Jaren Jackson Jr. / James Wiseman "full-year total meniscal repair" route as opposed to "partial removal and get back on the floor ASAP." (Or whatever it was; paging Rad Sox, as always). Of course, JJJ is now hurt again and Wiseman could easily be next, so who TF knows.
 
Sam Ray Not

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Wow. I’m all for allowing enough grey area in the “public health v individual liberty” question to allow for free expression and reasonable disagreement. But: “one of the biggest violations of HUMAN RIGHTS in history” is positively Trumpian (right down to the use of all caps). In history? C’mon, Jaylen, crack that history book.

Edit: yeah, the original tweet is Kyrie’s, but we know he’s a lost cause. JB should know better.
 
CoffeeNerdness

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He turned to the guy during a press conference and literally said "I hate you." Was he joking because it sure seemed like he was being serious?
 
Jimbodandy

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Sam Ray Not said:
Gabagool!!! We hardly knew ye...

On Timelord: man, that sucks. Love that guy. Can't help but wonder how different things might be if they had gone the Jaren Jackson Jr. / James Wiseman "full-year total meniscal repair" route as opposed to "partial removal and get back on the floor ASAP." (Or whatever it was; paging Rad Sox, as always). Of course, JJJ is now hurt again and Wiseman could easily be next, so who TF knows.
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I'd love to hear rad's opinion on this too, but from what I know, you always try the conservative approach to meniscus if it's an option. Sometimes it's clear that you need to do a repair repair, but that comes fraught with a lot of risk. If trimming is an option per scan, then you try that shit every time and see how it goes. Downside risk is that you end up needing to do the bigger procedure eventually anyway.
 
Ale Xander

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Timing on the surgery means he recently re-injured it? Because why not do it sooner if he didn’t?
 
lexrageorge

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Ale Xander said:
Timing on the surgery means he recently re-injured it? Because why not do it sooner if he didn’t?
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Globe article mentioned he experienced soreness when he started ramping up his pre-camp workouts. It's less of a "reinjury" than it is the rest alone was not sufficient.
 
djbayko

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CoffeeNerdness said:
He turned to the guy during a press conference and literally said "I hate you." Was he joking because it sure seemed like he was being serious?
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I remember thinking it was unclear at the time, although I deeply wanted it to be serious. I thought there was some laughter involved which could have been interpreted as uncomfortable or friendly, depending on your biases.
 
PRabbit

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So with Timelord out for a minute, does Ime go small ball more often? Or does he give all those reserve bigs minutes?

Smart/Brogdon/Jays/AL with PP and White isn't terrible.
 
Just a bit outside

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PRabbit said:
So with Timelord out for a minute, does Ime go small ball more often? Or does he give all those reserve bigs minutes?

Smart/Brogdon/Jays/AL with PP and White isn't terrible.
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They may close with that unit but I think Ime will be very cautious with minutes early in the season. Better to lose an extra few games than run these guys down.
 
lovegtm

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I'm glad that the rest of my life is busy and productive at the moment, because otherwise I would be losing my shit at how cursed this late summer has been.
 
nighthob

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I have been yelling at them for years that Kyzuzu's exit doesn't change the need for an exorcism. They really need to get a priest, rabbi, imam, whatever in there to do a complete spiritual cleansing.
 
128

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Tomorrow is media day for the Celtics. Not much to talk about this year after an uneventful offseason.
 
jasail

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I entered the offseason worried about big man depth and that was with a healthy Gallo and a presumably healthy Rob. My thinking was both Horford and Rob would need load management throughout the season forcing the C's to rely on a consistent 5-man big man rotation. That said, Grant gave them a good small ball 5 and they could provide Vonleh/Kornet with an opportunity to play themselves into another rotation spot. Not an ideal scenario, but not terrible - another rotational big would have been a nice security blanket should an injury occur.

Well, before the season even started the injury occurred and we were spoiled with not just one but two. Big man depth went from a welcome luxury to something of a necessity. At present, they need both Vonleh and Kornet to pan out. Even then, Al's probably playing more than he should and they are likely committing a lot of minutes to small ball lineups, both scenarios are probably not physically ideal for a team with post-season aspirations. I know it's pretty sparse out there (Howard, Cousins, Whiteside, LMA) but isn't it even uglier on the C's bench?
 
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RorschachsMask

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I think we all forget how much margin for error there is in the regular season, and who you can get away with playing. If we have Tatum out there leading the bench units, (safe bet) they’ll be fine.

Last year, Tatum in, Rob/Al off +10.5 net rating in 921 possessions.

Two years ago, Tatum in, Rob/Theis off +2.3 net rating in 1915 possessions. That was mostly with the corpse of Tristan, and Semi in most of those lineups.

Three years ago, Tatum in, Rob/Theis off +10.6 net rating in 1785 possessions.

Three years ago, Tatum in, Grant at center +20.2 net rating in 445 possessions.

It’s a massive sample size. The Clippers are pretty much in the same boat, as well. They have one true center, and play guys like Morris/Covington there. So yeah the first couple of months without Rob is less than ideal, but the team should be fine.
 
wade boggs chicken dinner

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jasail said:
I entered the offseason worried about big man depth and that was with a healthy Gallo and a presumably healthy Rob. My thinking was both Horford and Rob would need load management throughout the season forcing the C's to rely on a consistent 5-man big man rotation. That said, Grant gives them the small ball 5 and they could provide Vonleh/Kornet with an opportunity to play themselves into the rotation. Another rotational big would be a luxury , and if the initial plan failed, it's easy enough to find back of the bench big man depth in the NBA. Now, with Gallo out for the season and Rob out until wintertime, big man depth is a necessity. They need both Vonleh and Kornet to pan out, and even then, Al's probably playing more than he should and they are likely committed to playing a lot of small ball with GW at the 5 and Tatum at the 4. That's exposing three core rotation players to a lot of physical minutes during the start of the regular season and may not pan out well for them over the long haul. I'd really like to see them add another veteran role player. I know it's pretty sparse out there (Howard, Cousins, Whiteside, LMA) but isn't it even uglier on the C's bench?
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I doubt very highly that the Cs are going to sign any veteran big man because of their tax situation. From this article - https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/filling-out-celtics-2022-23-roster-taxing-situation - any veteran whom the Cs sign to a fully guaranteed contract only counts the minimum portion of the contract against the salary cap, but - and this is why the Cs won't sign someone unless they are sure that person is going to fit - if the Cs cut that player during the year, the Cs are on hook for the full amount of the contract.

I.e., for Carmelo, if the Cs signed him to a veteran one-year guaranteed minimum contract, Melo would get approximately $2.9M but the Cs would be on the hook for $1.8M. However, if the Cs cut Melo during the year, the Cs would then be on the hook for the full $2.9M, which brings the salary cap hit from approximately $8.1M to $13M. And while it's not our money, it's still real money.

The Cs are going to open the season with one or more of the Green Kornet, Luka, Cabin Jelly, and Vonleh and hopefully, one or more of these guys will show they can play above-average defense or offense. And if not, they will see what's available later on in the season.

I don't know if Vegas has bets on win totals before the ASB, but I'd probably go the under while the Cs try to figure this stuff out.
 
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