Former World Series-saving closer Sergio Romo is out for the San Francisco Giants after another blown save Saturday night, the team announced Sunday.
The Giants will now close by committee, with Santiago Casilla and Jeremy Affeldt most likely sharing those duties, manager Bruce Bochy said, according to the San Francisco Chronicle.
echo this.Rasputin said:I am much more interested in having Koji back next year than I am of fleecing anyone out of anything.
Nothing at all to do with sentimentality, 100% due to his skills and results.Snodgrass'Muff said:There is zero reason to extend Koji. You take him year to year at his age. Anything more is a sentimental move and this team doesn't make sentimental moves.
I know it defies all logic, but sometimes the conventional wisdom is right.benhogan said:Nothing at all to do with sentimentality, 100% due to his skills and results.
It all depends on price/value, but as long as people continue to use conventional wisdom and site his age as a deterrent to signing him for multiple years, the cheaper we probably can get him.
There is no reason except the fact that the deal now would probably be cheaper and shorter than the one he is likely to sign in the off-season.Snodgrass'Muff said:There is zero reason to extend Koji. You take him year to year at his age. Anything more is a sentimental move and this team doesn't make sentimental moves.
snowmanny said:There is no reason except the fact that the deal now would probably be cheaper and shorter than the one he is likely to sign in the off-season.
Snodgrass'Muff said:
How many 40 year old relievers not named Mariano Rivera have gotten multi-year deals at significant money?
Adrian's Dome said:How many 40 year old relievers not named Mariano Rivera have been the best closers in the game for 2 seasons running?
Two can play at that game, and that game sucks.
Adrian's Dome said:
How many 40 year old relievers not named Mariano Rivera have been the best closers in the game for 2 seasons running?
Two can play at that game, and that game sucks.
Koji has been an 'exceptional' relief pitcher at ages 35, 36, 37, 38 and 39. He has varied from very good to the 'greatest relief pitcher ever' in those years.Snodgrass'Muff said:
Setting aside your hyperbole, if you think he's likely to age like Mariano Rivera, then you are arguing for the exception. I'm betting on what happens to almost every player in their 40's. If you think he's unlikely to age like almost every other major leaguer before him, explain why. Until I see a good argument for why he should be expected to continue to be one of the top relievers in the game at age 40 and 41, I'm not going to consider offering him a multi-year extension a good idea. If he's going to regress from great to very good or worse, drop off a cliff like relievers do every season, a multi-year deal is going to hurt. And anyone arguing that the Sox can afford to pay him X million a year for mediocrity is arguing for a deal based on sentiment, not objectivity.
Snodgrass'Muff said:I'm not being obtuse. I'm pointing out that he's 39 years old and that historically, guys have overwhelmingly aged poorly in their 40's. You are arguing that like Mariano, Koji is the exception. You need to provide exceptional evidence and you aren't. Pointing out that he's currently really good does nothing to address my concern. Pointing to a bunch of starting pitchers does not answer my question. Moyer, Niekro and Wakefield were all starters up until they retired and Wake had been on a year to year option for years leading up to his final season anyway. So again, what examples of relievers going into their 40's have receiving multi-year offers at significant money can you point to? The answer is Mariano Rivera, and he's the exception, not the rule. If you want to argue Koji is also an exception, provide more than "He's currently one of the best and he's not in bad shape."
I'll even take my question a step further, on the offhand chance I'm forgetting someone. How many relievers who were in or going into their 40's have been offered multi-year contracts at substantial money and had it work out well?
I've still yet to see one compelling reason for the Sox to extend Koji now, or for multiple years. He's too old to make that bet and there's no reason to believe that failing to extend him now will prevent the team from signing him over the winter if they want him back for the 2015 season. As it pertains to this season and the trade deadline specifically, if the team believes it is out of contention, trading him might be the right move depending on the return. If the team believes it can win the AL East, they should keep him in Boston as he's the best option they have for a closer at present.
Snodgrass'Muff said:I'm not being obtuse. I'm pointing out that he's 39 years old and that historically, guys have overwhelmingly aged poorly in their 40's. You are arguing that like Mariano, Koji is the exception. You need to provide exceptional evidence and you aren't. Pointing out that he's currently really good does nothing to address my concern. Pointing to a bunch of starting pitchers does not answer my question. Moyer, Niekro and Wakefield were all starters up until they retired and Wake had been on a year to year option for years leading up to his final season anyway. So again, what examples of relievers going into their 40's have receiving multi-year offers at significant money can you point to? The answer is Mariano Rivera, and he's the exception, not the rule. If you want to argue Koji is also an exception, provide more than "He's currently one of the best and he's not in bad shape."
I'll even take my question a step further, on the offhand chance I'm forgetting someone. How many relievers who were in or going into their 40's have been offered multi-year contracts at substantial money and had it work out well?
I've still yet to see one compelling reason for the Sox to extend Koji now, or for multiple years. He's too old to make that bet and there's no reason to believe that failing to extend him now will prevent the team from signing him over the winter if they want him back for the 2015 season. As it pertains to this season and the trade deadline specifically, if the team believes it is out of contention, trading him might be the right move depending on the return. If the team believes it can win the AL East, they should keep him in Boston as he's the best option they have for a closer at present.
benhogan said:Koji has been an 'exceptional' relief pitcher at ages 35, 36, 37, 38 and 39. He has varied from very good to the 'greatest relief pitcher ever' in those years.
-snip-
In the 35 years of watching baseball I can only recall 1 pitcher that has been this dominant from 35-39, and thats Mariano. Can you name anyone else that has been this good at 35-39?
So Yes I'd much rather roll the dice on a lean and mean Koji at 40 and 41 then a fat shit relief pitcher (Jenks, Bailey, Hanrahan, Mujica) that is in their late 20s/early 30s.
SirPsychoSquints said:
Relievers are a crap shoot. They always have been, and always will be. Citing the FO's failures with closer types is silly because 2/4 seemed like good ideas at the time and it's too early to write of Mujica anyway. If you can get someone to overpay in a trade, of course you do that. Barring that, I actually like the idea of a 1 year deal with a vesting option of some sort, I think it would well for both sides.jimbobim said:I'm in the camp where you only entertain trading Uehara if a team is stupid enough to offer one of their top tier/ best organizational prospect bats for him. This is unlikely to happen because of his age/contract and therefore if I'm a FO who has failed with Mujica Hanarahan Jenks Bailey in succession I keep him around till he breaks down.
Contrary to popular belief useful and dependable closers do not grow on trees. Sure Tazawa might be able to step up next year but then there's a hole in the 8th. This one run game obsessed team would without a doubt be sellers now without the very good Koji they've had this year.
As for koji's peripherals sinking i'm not buying it. Him and Kimbrel are the best in the league by far and isn't even really close. He was historically unbelievable last year. A bit of regression was inevitable.
Bottom line is I don't see his performance falling off a cliff because he doesn't rely on velocity very much like the exception Mariano. Considering his track record I would be comfortable talking an extension with some option kick in language for his 41 y/o season which of course one can objectively argue is insane. However, I think you can objectively argue it is not insane just as convincingly.
KillerBs said:Or to put the question another way: how did guys who were as good as Koji last year in their age 38 year do in the ensuing years?
But wait, that doesn't help because no one (or almost no one) was ever as good as Koji was last year, at age 38 or any other age.
And it wasn't just 2013. Koji's numbers since the start of 2011 (age 36 year):
203 IPs, 113 hits, 26 BB, 277 Ks, 1.46 ERA.
So no, sentimentality aside, this is not the guy you nickel and dime over a 2nd year, unless your most important team objective is not ever paying money to injured players.
You need to provide exceptional evidence and you aren't.
Adrian's Dome said:Snod, you keep saying this, and numbers keep coming out, but you're ignoring them and repeating yourself. What exact kind of "exceptional evidence" do you want, a day-by-day prediction of his exact future numbers? Sure, let me pull a Biff Tannen and get my almanac. You're talking about the common reliever, we're talking about the exception, and to this point, it sure looks as if there's more pointing toward the idea that Koji might be the exception and not the rule. Your argument is all "how this, provide that, show me how this has worked out", but the problem is, we're dealing with somewhat uncharted territory and you know it. You're asking unanswerable questions.
Adrian's Dome said:
What I want you to answer is: why would a 2-3 year at reasonable reliever money for a guy that's putting up historically good seasons to this exact point seem to be a crippling, unacceptable move? If by year 3 Koji has morphed into what is only a "good" or "decent" reliever instead of an otherworldly one, that's still not a deal that hamstrings a team's finances.
Puffy said:Some of this debate on Uehara, his performance relative to his age, his value, and whether to trade or extend him, might be more interesting in a thread of its own.
Rasputin said:What I would do with Koji is try to negotiate a one year deal, maybe witth an option for a second that kicks in if he stays healthy, and if that doesn't happen quickly, make him the qualifying offer. He'll probably accept and be overpaid for a season and I'm okay with that.
HriniakPosterChild said:
You can GM for my team anytime.
I don't for a minute think that Koji is going to get huge dollars, especially when he has a qualifying offer sitting around his neck. I mean, look what it did to Drew and Morales, or even Cruz. And if he doesn't accept the qualifying offer, it's not like they can't negotiate further.Rovin Romine said:
Too timid for me. He might reject the QO. I'd go 17 or 18 at least. But I'd go higher if it was a multi year deal.
It's in the shop. It spring a gallery on me when I was perusing V&N the other day.Papelbon's Poutine said:I think you need to check your sarcasm meter.
I'd go 3/60. Let's not mess around here.Rovin Romine said:
Too timid for me. He might reject the QO. I'd go 17 or 18 at least. But I'd go higher if it was a multi year deal.
BosRedSox5 said:With the call up of Caesar Taveras ...
Cardinals are a great fit in terms of trade partners. I am a bit worried about Craig's downward trend in power, however, it may be due to lingering issues with his foot. I would be even more worried if the Cardinals were willing to trade Craig for Peavy.BosRedSox5 said:With the call up of Caesar Taveras, Allen Craig gas been relegated to the bench. This is a guy who for 2.5 seasons before this year slashed 312/.364/.500/.863. He's literally never made an outfield error and he's got some defensive flexibility.
The Cardinals need some pitching help. Maybe they'd want Peavy, maybe they'd want Mujica back... I don't know but there seems to be a real opportunity there to buy low. Craig isn't a great defensive player but LF in Fenway could make use of his sure handedness and decent arm without needing big time range. Expecting his bat to come back is a little bit of a gamble, but he'd had a big sample size from 2011-2013 that I think showed he was for real. At 25 million remaining over 3 years I think it's a decent enough shot for a team with the Sox's resources.
Why? I think Peavy could be pretty useful for them not only on the mound, but as an additional veteran presence for some of the youngsters. Peavy for Craig makes some sense for both sides. Not exactly a blockbuster, but ...EricFeczko said:Cardinals are a great fit in terms of trade partners. I am a bit worried about Craig's downward trend in power, however, it may be due to lingering issues with his foot. I would be even more worried if the Cardinals were willing to trade Craig for Peavy.
I'd still do the trade, but I'd be less excited about it. The last time the Cardinals traded a major league player for a useful but not critical piece (Freese for Bourjos), the major league player ended up being terrible (Freese). If the Cardinals were willing to trade Craig for Peavy, I'd be worried that this year's performance may not be a fluke for Craig.Yaz4Ever said:Why? I think Peavy could be pretty useful for them not only on the mound, but as an additional veteran presence for some of the youngsters. Peavy for Craig makes some sense for both sides. Not exactly a blockbuster, but ...
That's a little paranoid, no? Bourjus sucks too, FWIW.EricFeczko said:I'd still do the trade, but I'd be less excited about it. The last time the Cardinals traded a major league player for a useful but not critical piece (Freese for Bourjos), the major league player ended up being terrible (Freese). If the Cardinals were willing to trade Craig for Peavy, I'd be worried that this year's performance may not be a fluke for Craig.
It is definitely superstitious. However, it seems like every player the Cardinals have traded for scraps or dropped in free agency ends up shitting the bed (mujica, pujols, Renteria, Freese, etc.).moondog80 said:That's a little paranoid, no? Bourjus sucks too, FWIW.
BosRedSox5 said:With the call up of Oscar Taveras, Allen Craig gas been relegated to the bench. This is a guy who for 2.5 seasons before this year slashed 312/.364/.500/.863. He's literally never made an outfield error and he's got some defensive flexibility.
The Cardinals need some pitching help. Maybe they'd want Peavy, maybe they'd want Mujica back... .
Can we please stop with the "if X team doesn't want him then he's probably broken and no one should want him!" argument?EricFeczko said:Cardinals are a great fit in terms of trade partners. I am a bit worried about Craig's downward trend in power, however, it may be due to lingering issues with his foot. I would be even more worried if the Cardinals were willing to trade Craig for Peavy.
E5 Yaz said:
... oh, come on. That one wasn't even difficult to get right.
EricFeczko said:I'd still do the trade, but I'd be less excited about it. The last time the Cardinals traded a major league player for a useful but not critical piece (Freese for Bourjos), the major league player ended up being terrible (Freese). If the Cardinals were willing to trade Craig for Peavy, I'd be worried that this year's performance may not be a fluke for Craig.