Pats Training Camp - News, Notes, Discussion

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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It’s almost as if they have some ability to spot and develop talent.

And of course we can analyze and parse and rate a zillion other transactions they made but just making those series of moves with Brady moves you way up the list.

Just as, on the other hand, you can never make up for being the guy who drafted Sam Bowie (Stu Inman)
Even drafting Olajuwon over Jordan turned out to be a terrible move.

Though that was defensible at the time, and of course Olajuwon himself is an all time great player.

It's just that in no world would you trade away Jordan's career to acquire Olajuwon's.
 

nighthob

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Jordan wouldn’t have six rings if he’d had the misfortune to be drafted by the Rockets. He actually should have been a Rocket anyway as the Bulls offered up #3 and a 1985 #1 for Ralph Sampson (which would have potentially created an Olajuwon/Jordan/Karl Malone team that would have dominated the NBA very quickly). The Ray Patterson years were a horror show.
 

troparra

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I'm not saying I wouldn't rather be a starter, because I would, but being a career backup QB in the NFL has to be one of the sweetest gigs in all of sports. You play a premium position, the fans generally love you and even if you do poorly, it's like, meh, he's just a backup anyway, so you don't really get any of the wrath. Because you don't play too much, you don't take many hits, so you generally get through a career unscathed. You get to have a few glorious moments and make a load of cash.

Pretty good way to spend 10-15 years if you can do it.
Brian Hoyer would agree. Though I think it's more work to be a backup QB than most people realize.

Before the Super Bowl, he watched an episode of Peyton Manning’s Detail series on ESPN-Plus on Goff, and it hit him right away—the offense is the same. Looking at the Rams tape confirmed it. Then, he saw an NFL Network interview where Goff and McVay discussed the coach being in the quarterback’s ear up until the 15-second play-clock cutoff, which was something Shanahan did with Hoyer. Then, Hoyer went back to Amazon’s All or Nothing series on the Rams; it was about the 2016 season but had footage of OTAs from McVay’s first spring there. Hoyer recognized the language.
McCourtys Tell All About Super Bowl LIII
 

Euclis20

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Michael Bishop's memoir "Yeah, I was ahead of Tom Brady on the depth chart..."

Edit - I just looked at the 2000 team on Football Reference- and was shocked to see that the third leading rusher on the team for both attempts and yards was one...
Drew Bledsoe, To be fair, the team had less than (fewer than?) 1400 yards rushing combined for the year.
Brady pulled off the same feat in 2002, and was 3rd in attempts and 5th in rushing yards in both 2003 and 2004.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Preseason game 1 stars:

1. Keon White. I know it is just preseason game 1, but he looked great. I worried he'd be a tweener, but so far he looks very good.
2. Christian Gonzalez. Looks like he is as advertised.
3. Jalen Mills/Anfernee Jennings. Both looked good in the early going before they checked out.

HM: Malik Cunningham, who led the team on its only sustained offensive drive of the game. Demario Douglas because the coaches seem to think highly enough of him not to play him.

Dishonorable mention: the craptastic OL. The Pats offense had two plays - only two - in which they gained >10 yards. A Zappe 27 yard pass to Thornton and a Cunningham 11 yard pass to Washington. That's the line or lack thereof.
 
Apr 24, 2019
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The Patriots played with at least 4 of the 5 starters on the bench. This is not to say the OL is good, and I am pretty alarmed at the shit-tastic level of their depth, but to act like THIS IS THE OFFENSIVE LINE is sort of ridiculous. When Trent Brown, Cole Strange, David Andrews, Michael Owenhu and Reiff/McDermott are in place on week one, we'll have a much better sense of their level. ALL of that said, the Patriots F.O. did a piss-poor job of addressing a fairly dire Tackle situation this off-season despite some very good prospects in the FA market AND in the draft.

Hopefully, we'll see progress from Sow (converting from guard to OT) and Mafi (if he improves enough to move into a starter's role at LG, perhaps Owenhu can kick out to RT) and we could maybe sorta-kinda have a little something?
 

Over Guapo Grande

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The Patriots played with at least 4 of the 5 starters on the bench. This is not to say the OL is good, and I am pretty alarmed at the shit-tastic level of their depth, but to act like THIS IS THE OFFENSIVE LINE is sort of ridiculous. When Trent Brown, Cole Strange, David Andrews, Michael Owenhu and Reiff/McDermott are in place on week one, we'll have a much better sense of their level. ALL of that said, the Patriots F.O. did a piss-poor job of addressing a fairly dire Tackle situation this off-season despite some very good prospects in the FA market AND in the draft.

Hopefully, we'll see progress from Sow (converting from guard to OT) and Mafi (if he improves enough to move into a starter's role at LG, perhaps Owenhu can kick out to RT) and we could maybe sorta-kinda have a little something?
Are you benching Strange for Mafi in the above scenario?
 

rodderick

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The Patriots played with at least 4 of the 5 starters on the bench. This is not to say the OL is good, and I am pretty alarmed at the shit-tastic level of their depth, but to act like THIS IS THE OFFENSIVE LINE is sort of ridiculous. When Trent Brown, Cole Strange, David Andrews, Michael Owenhu and Reiff/McDermott are in place on week one, we'll have a much better sense of their level. ALL of that said, the Patriots F.O. did a piss-poor job of addressing a fairly dire Tackle situation this off-season despite some very good prospects in the FA market AND in the draft.

Hopefully, we'll see progress from Sow (converting from guard to OT) and Mafi (if he improves enough to move into a starter's role at LG, perhaps Owenhu can kick out to RT) and we could maybe sorta-kinda have a little something?
Thing is, those guys were already the OL from last year which was fine at best and I think the Reiff/McDermott combo could very well be a downgrade at RT. Sure you hope Strange improves in year 2, but the fact that so many of those guys are unavailable makes me believe depth will be important this year and they spent a significant amount of draft capital on the line for some not great early returns. Ideally none of those guys play as rookies and it's obviously way too early to judge them, but they were going against the Houston 2nd unit and looked pretty poor, which is why I believe some level of concern is already warranted.

Brown is dealing with something, Strange is injured, Onwenu is unavailable, Reiff apparently has cinder blocks for feet according to the beat and McDermott is McDermott. I'll feel a whole lot better if Sow, Hines and Mafe look competent.
 
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Eck'sSneakyCheese

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Preseason game 1 stars:

1. Keon White. I know it is just preseason game 1, but he looked great. I worried he'd be a tweener, but so far he looks very good.
2. Christian Gonzalez. Looks like he is as advertised.
3. Jalen Mills/Anfernee Jennings. Both looked good in the early going before they checked out.

HM: Malik Cunningham, who led the team on its only sustained offensive drive of the game. Demario Douglas because the coaches seem to think highly enough of him not to play him.

Dishonorable mention: the craptastic OL. The Pats offense had two plays - only two - in which they gained >10 yards. A Zappe 27 yard pass to Thornton and a Cunningham 11 yard pass to Washington. That's the line or lack thereof.
The IOL was blown up all night. Constant inside pressure. Hard to tell if Zappe is really that indecisive because he didn't have much time to throw. Malik Cunningham was electric. Don't really care if it was against scrubs, he was dynamic and poised. I swear I saw Belichick smile when Cunningham came to the sideline to talk to BOB during that scoring drive. I'm not saying I'm full pants tent, but it moved.

White was very impressive. Non-stop motor. His situational awareness is excellent. He makes very heady plays. Back to back he didn't bite on a play fake where the line was moving left and the QB split right and, next play on the fumble, he drove his shoulder into the back who was bobbling the ball. Didn't try to be hero and play the ball, knew he was behind the line and attacked.

I can't wait to see Mapu out there. The other options at safety behind the big 4 (Dugger, Peppers, Phillips and Mills) aren't all that intriguing. Except maybe Speed.
 

Shelterdog

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The Patriots played with at least 4 of the 5 starters on the bench. This is not to say the OL is good, and I am pretty alarmed at the shit-tastic level of their depth, but to act like THIS IS THE OFFENSIVE LINE is sort of ridiculous. When Trent Brown, Cole Strange, David Andrews, Michael Owenhu and Reiff/McDermott are in place on week one, we'll have a much better sense of their level. ALL of that said, the Patriots F.O. did a piss-poor job of addressing a fairly dire Tackle situation this off-season despite some very good prospects in the FA market AND in the draft.

Hopefully, we'll see progress from Sow (converting from guard to OT) and Mafi (if he improves enough to move into a starter's role at LG, perhaps Owenhu can kick out to RT) and we could maybe sorta-kinda have a little something?
Who were those great tackle prospects again? I’ll hang up and listen.
 

rodderick

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Who were those great tackle prospects again? I’ll hang up and listen.
In FA they had Orlando Brown Jr., Mike McGlinchey and Kaleb McGary, all of which would be massive improvements. They could have also taken a flyer on Donovan Smith, who can play LT and signed with the Chiefs for less money than the Pats gave Riley Riff (and in my mind is a better player at this point, even if he was awful when injured in 2022). I'll agree about the draft, though, no tackle worth being picked over Gonzalez and no sure fire starter at RT or LT in the 2nd round and beyond, though I would have rather picked Dawand Jones than Jake Andrews.
 

Eddie Jurak

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The IOL was blown up all night. Constant inside pressure. Hard to tell if Zappe is really that indecisive because he didn't have much time to throw. Malik Cunningham was electric. Don't really care if it was against scrubs, he was dynamic and poised. I swear I saw Belichick smile when Cunningham came to the sideline to talk to BOB during that scoring drive. I'm not saying I'm full pants tent, but it moved.
Yes, that is why I attributed all of the blame for the lousy offense to the line. Somewhat like last season, only much worse, it's hard to get a read on the skill positions when the OL is a disaster. Zappe's 27-yard throw to Thornton was a nice play all around, but it was the only one. Zappe did not turn it over or get anything batted down at the line. Those are sorts of positives.
White was very impressive. Non-stop motor. His situational awareness is excellent. He makes very heady plays. Back to back he didn't bite on a play fake where the line was moving left and the QB split right and, next play on the fumble, he drove his shoulder into the back who was bobbling the ball. Didn't try to be hero and play the ball, knew he was behind the line and attacked.
Yep. I feared that White was going to be a bad type of tweener: too slow for an edge-rushing/LB/4-3 end role, too small to be an effective power rusher. Or a player whose upside is another Deatrich Wise - servicable guy but usually not an impact guy. It's one first preseason game, but he flashed much better than that - the most encouraging sign of the night.
 

IdiotKicker

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They don't play the exact same position, as White appears to be lining up more at DE/EDGE, but in terms of skillset and traits, I'm getting major Chris Jones vibes from him in terms of strength, hand quickness, and overall toolset. Let's see how he does against better competition, but his presence was noticeable on a regular basis in the best possible way.
 

DJnVa

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Who were those great tackle prospects again? I’ll hang up and listen.
There are limits on who you can draft. Had we drafted tackle prospects, we'd be wondering where the young CB was or why other teams get guys like Keion White.
 

Shelterdog

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In FA they had Orlando Brown Jr., Mike McGlinchey and Kaleb McGary, all of which would be massive improvements. They could have also taken a flyer on Donovan Smith, who can play LT and signed with the Chiefs for less money than the Pats gave Riley Riff (and in my mind is a better player at this point, even if he was awful when injured in 2022). I'll agree about the draft, though, no tackle worth being picked over Gonzalez and no sure fire starter at RT or LT in the 2nd round and beyond, though I would have rather picked Dawand Jones than Jake Andrews.
maybe smith is better maybe reiff is better, we will see. The tackles you mention are possibly better but very expensive.
 
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Jimbodandy

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Trash OL as expected. At least Mac didn't play, so folks will have to blame someone else for the garbage offensive performance.

Defensive line looks incredible. I'm confident that the speed and power on defense will keep this team competitive all year. Hoping that Cunningham makes the team, since the OL couldn't block me.
 

rodderick

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maybe smith is better maybe reiff is better, we will see. The tackles you mention are possibly better but very expensive.
They could have fit any of them under this year's cap with ease and the Pats have the most cap space in football in 24/25. Have to spend money somewhere, might as well address a weakness.
 
Apr 24, 2019
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Who were those great tackle prospects again? I’ll hang up and listen.
Well, in terms of the FA class, I was hoping they'd go after McGlinchey or Brown. But would've been fine with Kaleb McGary or Andre Dillard too.

Mid-round college guys I wish they'd looked at were Bergeron, Steen, Blake Freeland, Dawand Jones.

There were reasonable prospects in FA, and a spectrum of $$$ and talent-levels - during an off-season where the team clearly needed to re-stock the position, both for 2023 AND beyond. It's confusing to me why they chose to do as little as they did. Reiff and McDermott and drafting-to-convert Sidy Sow...I mean, that's pretty feeble. Hope I'm wrong. Long way to go. We'll see.

edit fixing autocorrects
 

Eddie Jurak

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Well, a long way to go yet but it looks as if the Pats might hit, and quickly, on their first 3 draft picks. Gonzalez looks as advertised, White looks like he might be a beast who should have gone in round 1, and Mapu has been in a red jersey but has drawn a lot of raves. A far cry from 2019 (Harry, Williams, Winovich).
 

BaseballJones

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Well, a long way to go yet but it looks as if the Pats might hit, and quickly, on their first 3 draft picks. Gonzalez looks as advertised, White looks like he might be a beast who should have gone in round 1, and Mapu has been in a red jersey but has drawn a lot of raves. A far cry from 2019 (Harry, Williams, Winovich).
Definitely way too early to say this but it's possible that the Pats picked up major difference makers, future cornerstone players, at all three levels of the defense in this draft.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Definitely way too early to say this but it's possible that the Pats picked up major difference makers, future cornerstone players, at all three levels of the defense in this draft.
And a P, K, and maybe 6th round WR. If there's an early disspointment, it is with the 4th/5th round linemen, but it is early yet.
 

Harry Hooper

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Mike Reiss tweeted that the Pats worked out two OTs yesterday: Chim Okorafor (Benedictine) and Trevor Reid (Louisville).


Marable had 48 receptions over 2 USFL seasons. Can he fill the 3rd-down back void?
 

Saints Rest

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Evan Lazar on patriots.com was a bit more measured about the OLine than the shot-show it looked like based on play results.
It's fair to be concerned about New England's depth along the offensive line, especially given the inconsistent availability of its starters, and evaluate certain players who project as contributors.
However, it's not surprising that an offensive unit that hasn't played much together and featured primarily backups struggled with the details on Thursday night. Upon review, there were fewer one-on-one pass-rush losses than it felt live, with Zappe under pressure on a manageable 29.4 percent of his drop-backs. The pressures for the game were charged to: Andrew Stueber (2), Chasen Hines (2), Conor McDermott (1), Sidy Sow (1), and tight end Matt Sokol was responsible for a sack. In all, not terrible, but that wasn't what the eye test suggested.
A big reason why the eye test made the performance feel worse than the metrics was because the pass protection struggled with Houston's schemed rushes, leading to free runners at the QB.
The Texans broke down New England's protection rules with what are called "coffee house" blitzes.
Kind of hard to grade a unit that is dependent on continuity and teamwork when they have had so little time together.

The glass half-empty view of course, is when will we see any of our starters together to build their own continuity.

Is Onwenu a week away? A month? 2 months?
Strange?
 

Dr. Gonzo

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If that holds true, that is a sigh of relief for me. Pats have little TE depth at the moment.
 

RedOctober3829

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That tweet is a bit ambiguous. Is it a mild dislocation or an AC sprain? If it's an AC sprain, that can be recovered from fairly quickly. If it's a dislocation, that may complicate things from a recovery standpoint.
 

Jimbodandy

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Sounds like this
How an AC Joint Injury Occurs

It’s commonly injured in patients who fall down with their arm at their side and land directly on the shoulder. This is a very common football injury. They get an AC joint separation where these two bones end up spraining the ligament between them or dislocating, where the collarbone actually sticks up. When that occurs — this is what it looks like with all the ligaments in place. This is your collarbone coming up and this the L-shaped bone coming right here. These are the ligaments that stabilize those two bones and you have ligaments here, between the two bones, the acromion and the clavicle, and you have ligaments going down to this coracoid bone here stabilizing this collarbone. So when this pops up or dislocates, what we recommend depends on how displaced that collarbone is from this acromion bone.
https://www.orthopedicsportsdoctor.com/blog/ac-joint-separation-or-shoulder-dislocation#:~:text=This is a very common,all the ligaments in place.
 

Saints Rest

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Jeebus, Zeke looks like an OG.

I was going to say he looks like Donte Hightower.

He looked especially huge in that first video, but then I realized it was JJ Taylor in front of him, who is a Smurf by NFL standards. Then I saw the others. He looks big. But I guess he passed the conditioning test.

Maybe he'll play FB in front of Rham.

Certainly not a change of pace guy after Rham.
 

8slim

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Just imagine if preseason games weren't televised and the only context we had of the passing game's performance that night were beat writers talking about how Zappe went 12 of 14.
For sure. I get that it’s Twitter, but I’d rather read any assessment of how the QB looked instead of lazy stat posting.
 

rodderick

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For sure. I get that it’s Twitter, but I’d rather read any assessment of how the QB looked instead of lazy stat posting.
It's just funny how different perceptions are too, especially regarding the plays that would have likely resulted in sacks in live action but weren't whistled down in practice. Some beat writers just write those down as sacks, other rave about the completions that happened 4+ seconds into the down. I still vastly prefer those descriptions to those stats, though, as obviously subjective as they are.