McCaffery's price was a 2023 2nd round pick, a 2023 3rd round pick, a 2023 4th round pick and a 2024 5th round pick.
That would net out at Keion White and Marte Mapu along with 2 lesser picks.
Pats Training Camp - News, Notes, Discussion
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That would net out at Keion White and Marte Mapu along with 2 lesser picks.
Also lets see what happens as the wide receiver contracts start to really weigh on the teams. The Bills have avoided truly big hits for Diggs thus far but he has a 27 million cap number next year; Brown's big contracts hasnt hit yet, Chase, Lamb and efferson are on rookie deals. The lesson may be that having awesome awesome players on rookie deals helps you win.
But they still have Kelce and Mahomes. They couldn’t keep all 3 any longer. Given age, I was a little surprised they went Kelce over Tyreek. But even after the Tyreek trade, they had the best TE and arguably the best QB in the league.
Receiver or not, the argument from the other side is the Patriots haze zero elite talent.* Yes, the Patriots never had an elite receiver, aside from Randy when they didn’t get a ring. But they had Brady and Gronk just like the Chiefs.
* Me, I would qualify Rhamondre as a top 5 RB.
Pat Mahomes is a unicorn, he's got a great head coach, and one of the best tight ends in NFL history. And he's a unicorn.
The other guys:
Josh Allen through 2 seasons: 15-12, 30td's, 21 ints, 5163 yards, QBR of 67.9 and 85.3, and like a billion fumbles.
Josh Allen in year 3, when Diggs came to town: 13-3, 4,500 yards, 37td's, 10ints, 107.2 rating. Diggs had 127 catches, 1,535 yards and 8tds. Cole Beasley had 82 catches, after not catching more than 68 in his previous 4 years (he had 82 again the next season). Allen had 8 of the team's 16 rushing touchdowns in that season.
Joe Burrow as a rookie went 2-7-1 as a starter, threw for 2,688 yards, 13tds, 5ints, and had a rating of 89.8.
In year 2, they went and got him a guy named Ja'Marr Chase, and he went 10-7, threw for 4,611 yards, 34tds and 14ints, with a rating of 108.3. Chase had 81 catches, for 1,455 yards and 13td's
Jalen Hurts barely played as a rookie (1-3 as a starter) and in year 2, he went 8-7, for 3,144 yards, 16tds, 9 ints, with a rating of 87.2.
In year 3, they went and got AJ Brown (after spending a high 1st on his buddy Davonta Smith, kind of like Chase/Burrow) and he went 14-1, with 3,701 yards, 22tds, 6 picks and a rating of 101.5. AJ had 88 catches, 1,496 yards and 11tds, while Smith went from a 64-916-5 guy as a rookie to 95-1196-7 with Brown across from him (don't even get me started on the improvement from Miles Sanders).
Tua in his first 2 seasons went 12-8, for 4,500 yards, 27tds, 15ints, and a rating of 87.1 and 90.1.
In year 3, after getting 104-1,015-6 from Waddle (Tua's friend from Bama, anyone else seeing a theme), they went out and put Tyreek across from him. Tua goes 8-5, throws for 3,548, 25tds, 8ints, and a rating of 105.5 when he got hurt. Tyreek finished with 119 catches, 1,710 yards and 7tds, while Waddle went for 75-1356-8tds.
Young QB's need help around them. I've done this analysis around here more times than I can count. Shit, veteran QB's need help too. Look at Rodgers last year when he lost Adams. Look at frigging Geno Smith when he got DK Metcalf and Tyler Lockett on the same field. Look at, oh, any QB in San Francisco, right down to Mr. Irrelevant, when you give them weapons everywhere.
This is the new model in the NFL.
Mac Jones was better as a rookie than any of these guys, and the Pats lost his OC, the offensive line was shit, his best receiver (IMO) in Bourne was benched, Hunter Henry can't block and isn't a weapon, Agholor sucks balls, Jonnu sucks balls, the rookie 2nd rounder got hurt....And you end up with last season.
Go get Mac's buddy from Alabama if there are any left there...
I knew this thread was like throwing up the DotB bat signal! I tend to agree with you. It’s obvious that QB is the most important skill position but since we’re extremely unlikely to get an elite one any time soon, we need to find other ways to improve the offense. That means OL and pass catchers.
As for the latter, just look at our division: Diggs, Hill, Waddle, Wilson. We don’t have anyone near that group. Fine. But those teams also have Allen, Rodgers, and Tua at QB. So, in a passing league, you’re behind the 8 ball at both positions.
Bill basically needs a top 5-10 defense every year to overcome that disadvantage. The margin for error for the Pats offense is just so small. Doesn’t mean it can’t be done but it’s going to be a real struggle just to make the playoffs with this group, let alone to be able to compete for a title.
I know he's gotten pretty click-baity in the last year or three, but Tom Curran (like many on here) sounded legitimately worried about how bad and thin the o-line was during his last podcast and it looks like the Pats felt the same way. I'm not sure how much improvement will come from bringing in a bunch of cast-offs, but availability may be the most important ability for o-line at this point.
Yup. It’s pretty clear they have concerns about the OT position. Lots of injuries and underperformance in that group. Given the low acquisition cost of each, it’s hard to imagine either guy plays a meaningful role but you never know.
Containing Philly’s DL is going to be a massive challenge in 2 weeks.
That 2021 team pounded twrr
Agree, but it seems like even a top 5-10 defense does most of the work by stopping lousy offensive teams. When was the last time the Pats won a game against a good team with their defense (forgetting the weather game vs the Bills)? Seems like you generally need a really good offense to beat other good teams.
There definitely haven’t been many impressive wins the past couple of seasons. Most of the wins have been against bad to mediocre teams. They didn’t beat Tampa in Brady’s return but that was probably a good example of the defense rising up against a good offense. They’re going to get tested quite a bit this year. Lots of good offenses on paper on the schedule.
Last year's #1 scoring defense was San Fran. They played a bunch of lousy offenses. But they did face a few good offenses.
KC scored 44 points and gained 529 yards on them
The Raiders were #12 in scoring and scored 34 points and gained 500 yards on them
It's really hard to stop good offenses.
KC scored 44 points and gained 529 yards on them
The Raiders were #12 in scoring and scored 34 points and gained 500 yards on them
It's really hard to stop good offenses.
Are Lowe, Wheatly and Brown going to be the three OTs on the 53? (After the dust settles and they get Reiff and Anderson to IR.) That seems really sketchy. I guess Sow has shown some capacity to play out there in a pinch. But wow. Not going to inspire much confidence.
Yeah, that they are just grabbing randos a few weeks before the season starts for the line doesn’t exactly inspire confidence. Feels a lot like last preseason.
The tackles they had played after Brown have sucked. Reiff failed and got moved to guard. McDermott was bad. Sow was not ready. Murray is a comedian and a practice squad level player. Steuber is immobile.
There are injury issues on the line. Tackle turned guard Reiff is hurt, the best offseason tackle pickup by process of elimination, Calvin Anderson, looks like he will open the year on NFI. We don't yet know about Cole Strange's readiness after missing the preseason.
They may want to keep Onwenu at G.
Before the moves, I had them keeping 9 OLs: Brown, Strange, D Andrews, Reiff, Onwenu, J Andrews, Mafi, Sow, McDermott... plus Anderson on NFI.
Now, I think they will keep 10. Brown, Strange, D Andrews, Onwenu, J Andrews, Mafi, Sow, Wheatley, Lowe, and either McDermoot (if Reiff goes to IR) or Reiff. Again, Anderson on NFI.
There are injury issues on the line. Tackle turned guard Reiff is hurt, the best offseason tackle pickup by process of elimination, Calvin Anderson, looks like he will open the year on NFI. We don't yet know about Cole Strange's readiness after missing the preseason.
They may want to keep Onwenu at G.
Before the moves, I had them keeping 9 OLs: Brown, Strange, D Andrews, Reiff, Onwenu, J Andrews, Mafi, Sow, McDermott... plus Anderson on NFI.
Now, I think they will keep 10. Brown, Strange, D Andrews, Onwenu, J Andrews, Mafi, Sow, Wheatley, Lowe, and either McDermoot (if Reiff goes to IR) or Reiff. Again, Anderson on NFI.
Again, I believe it's perfectly fine to argue you wouldn't want to make those deals, but those guys are available. I'd do the McCaffrey deal, I think he could be transformative for Mac, even with the injury risk.
Agreed on Kelce. Plus Mahomes had established himself as a star / unicorn at that point. Somewhat akin to the Pats trading Moss in 2010. A little different.
That seems to underscore the need to create a good offense, which is very hard to do in today’s NFL without a top QB or elite receiving threat. Of course, none of that matters if your OL stinks so that’s got to be the top priority right now.
Well yeah it’s certainly ideal if the Pats can build a really good offense to go along with their really good defense. And while we’re at it, it’s helpful if their special teams are really good as well.
Exactly - those are really good quarterbacks. How can you expect to compete with those teams if you give your mediocre quarterback fewer weapons than them?
Not to mention, as DotB notes above, Jalen Hurts wasn't MVP JALEN HURTS until the Eagles went and added a top tier talent in AJ Brown to augment the rest of their offense.
I'm just responding to the concept that wanting an elite pass catcher in 2023 is akin to being annoyed that they drafted Richard Seymour over David Terrell and Koren Robinson. The game has changed. RBs are less valuable. Wide receivers get more volume and they make up a higher portion of offenses nowadays. If you don't have peak Tom Brady spreading the ball around or Patrick Mahomes making water out of wine (and even he needs Kelce as a security blanket), then having a high-level talent at receiver seems like a necessity if you want to threaten to win the division or advance past the first round of the playoffs.
I wasn’t being snarky. Sorry if I came across that way. In order to be a championship team, you kind of need to be either really good in all phases, or absolutely elite on offense, which can probably carry the other two areas. I don’t think any of us sees the patriots as elite in any area so that means in order to reach championship level, they need to be really good in all three phases. Which, of course, is a pretty tall task but, well, that’s life without Tom Brady.
Yeah for instance last year, Dallas was 15th in offensive DVOA, 2nd in defensive DVOA, and 10th in ST. They finished 6th in overall DVOA and won 12 games. That's kind of the path for the Pats, although the schedule is a complicating factor. A Pats team with a top defense, a decent offense, and good ST can compete. Very unlikely to win it all, but there's a path.
The "problem" is that A) the offense has no chance to be top half of the league if the O-line doesn't get healthy / play well, and B) the ST have left a LOT to be desired the last few years. I'm reasonably confident that the D will be ~top 5 again.
For context, last year the Pats finished 15th in overall DVOA, with a 24th ranked offense, 3rd ranked defense, and 32nd ranked ST. Get those up to 12-15 on offense and middle of the pack ST and you're talking about a ~top 8 DVOA team.
My apologies - it read snarky given the follow message. I think, ultimately, it’ll be tough for this team to reach the levels we want unless Max levels up or we find an elite pass catcher to raise the ceiling on the offense. We know the defense will be competitive or better for as long as Bill is here.
No worries. I was just talking with another friend on a completely different subject and we agreed that it’s better to talk rather than swap emails because it’s hard to read tone in emails sometimes. Same thing here. Sorry again if I came across as dismissive or snarky.
I agree that Bill will keep them in it defensively. I think they have enough pieces offensively to be competitive. They were the #6 scoring offense in 2021 with Mac as a rookie and had other good offensive metrics. Not elite but good. I think they can be top 10-12 this year but to me it all depends on the O-line. If they perform well, this team will score points. If they don’t, the offense doesn’t have enough other skill to overcome it and they’ll struggle.
And they still need to be a lot better on special teams. Between getting punts blocked and allowing opposing teams to return kickoffs for TDs… that was a MAJOR problem for them last year.
Even if this offensive line plays well, barring major injuries to other teams, I don't see how this offense is better than any of the following teams:
Miami
Buffalo
Jets
Cincy
KC
San Diego
San Fran
Philly
Jacksonville
Minnesota
That's my top 10.
Then, I can't see them being better than all but 2 of these teams:
Dallas
Detroit
Rams
New Orleans
Seattle
Steelers
And that's off the top of my head, so I could very well be missing some more teams.
I think optimistically, if you squint real hard, get a lot of short fields, have other teams lose a ton of players to injury, the Pats lose nobody important on offense to injury, they can be right around top 15.
Given the schedule, I anticipate they'll be coming from behind a lot, and forced to throw and move the ball against prevent defenses late, leading to some statistical increases, but in a close and late game, needing a score against their opponents, yikes....
Don't disagree. But I can almost guarantee that one of those teams will not be in the Top 10 offensively when the season ends. Cannot tell you which one, as that is just the nature of randomness in the NFL.
As the one who sees the glass half full this time of year, I will say that the Pats have more potential upside than you are willing to give them credit for. From the reports out of training camp, the team's leading receiver in 2021 had an outstanding camp and seems ready to have a bounce-back season. The reports on Douglas were glowing, and Boutte turned some heads as well. And I personally believe JuJu is an upgrade over Myers. And there is no Agholor or Jonnu Smith. I'm also expecting some organic growth out of Mac this season. Maybe that expectation turns out to be unfounded, but, again, he's had by all accounts a decent camp.
So I do believe it is not out of the question that the Pats could leapfrog a number of those teams in your second tier, each of whom has their own challenges.
And, to be fair and balanced, if I'm going to cherry pick the upper quadrant of the bell curve of possible outcomes for this offense, I will acknowledge that the results in the other half of the curve have an equal chance to pan out.
Great point on addition by subtraction wrt Jonnu and Agholor! It won't be tough to get superior reps from their replacements
I may have missed but McSorley and P Corliss Waitman we’re released (Reiss Twitter via Mastodon): After waiving P Corliss Waitman and releasing QB Trace McSorley on Monday, the Patriots have the following 77 players on the roster leading into Tuesday’s cutdown to 53:
View: https://twitter.com/MikeReiss/status/1696328157626765327
View: https://twitter.com/MikeReiss/status/1696328157626765327
Saw a tweet there are 67 players at today's practice. including these guys.
Zack Cox
@ZackCoxNESN
Calvin Anderson is practicing for the first time since the spring. Christian Gonzalez is back after sitting out Sunday’s practice. Demario Douglas looks like he’s been cleared for contact. Good sign for him. New tackles Tyrone Wheatley Jr. (No. 72) and Vederian Lowe (No. 59) both are here and practicing.
Zack Cox
@ZackCoxNESN
Calvin Anderson is practicing for the first time since the spring. Christian Gonzalez is back after sitting out Sunday’s practice. Demario Douglas looks like he’s been cleared for contact. Good sign for him. New tackles Tyrone Wheatley Jr. (No. 72) and Vederian Lowe (No. 59) both are here and practicing.
Folk to Vrabel for a 7th rounder, per the Athletic:
Patriots trade kicker Nick Folk to Titans, per sources: Why New England is betting on Chad Ryland
Edit: Already covered and being discussed in the roster projections thread.
Patriots trade kicker Nick Folk to Titans, per sources: Why New England is betting on Chad Ryland
Edit: Already covered and being discussed in the roster projections thread.
Patriots NOT looking to trade Bourne. No real surprise but with one year left on deal and a little bit of depth at position, I wouldn't have been that shocked if they explored a trade. Glad they aren't.
Pro-football reference charted Anderson with 439 snaps in 2022, 4212 would be over 4 seasons worth.Just read this fact sheet on Calvin Anderson, finally joins the team in practice today.
Yeah, that looks a bit high. This was tweeted out by Michael Hurley. I am still amazed Anderson can complete a rubics cube behind his back.
