Mookie absolutely should make the HOF barring a catastrophe. He's been an elite player for a long time. MVP and top 10 in MVP voting a bunch of times. Such a pleasure to watch play, though now I don't watch him play at all.
Following Former Red Sox 2023
- Thread starter Lose Remerswaal
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B-Ref has him currently at 60.7 WAR, good for 118th all time. Assuming he gets, let's say, 2 more before the end of this season, he would be in the top 110, 3 more would put him around 104. If he keeps it up for one more year, he would be pushing 70th.
He's only played 8 years, so I don't think he is even eligible yet, but I think he would be a borderline case already. After next year, he may be a shoe-in, and within the next 3-4 years, you're already having the "inner circle" debate, like, by the time he is 35 years old.
I'm of the opinion that he wasn't likely to sign with the Red Sox, before or after hitting free agency, so I don't begrudge the trade, and don't hate the return (I love Verdugo)... but fuck do I wish they could have found a way to make it work with Mookie.
This is Mookie's 10th year, so he'd be eligible now and has at least as strong a case at Kirby Puckett did if his career were to be foreshortened. If you give him 2 more B-WAR this year, his 7 year "peak" (WAR7) through 2023, accomplished essentially over the course of 8 full seasons, would match Frank Robinson's best 7 years, accomplished between 1956-1969.
Ah, I was looking at service time on B-Ref which says 8.070, but it is definitely his 10th season, thank you.
Nice article on Mo Vaughn’s second life as a hitting coach.
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/former-boston-red-sox-slugger-110643033.html
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/former-boston-red-sox-slugger-110643033.html
Oh man, that's a great read. I loved this part:
He's 100% right about this. When the league only rewards 3 true outcomes, hitters HAVE to swing for the fences. Opening up the game more by banning the extreme shifts helps with the action on the field.
There are 104 players with 70+ bWAR.
Lou Whitaker and Bobby Grich got shafted, Pete Rose is ineligible, and Curt Schilling is an asshole. All the other non-steroid 70+ guys (one 19th century pitcher aside) are in, or will be when they’re eligible. The only way Mookie doesn’t get to 70 is if something terrible happens, and if it does he’ll get in like Puckett did. I’d argue he’s already a lock.
He’s got a bit more work to do to achieve pantheon status. As an example, George Brett is 48th all time with 88.6 bWAR; imo he sits right around the border of the inner circle. (I can argue with a straight face that Brett is an inner-circle guy, or that he isn’t.)
Mookie has averaged 6.3 bWAR over his past four full seasons, assuming he gets 7.5 this season (he’s at 4.5 through 90 games). It would be a helluva feat to replicate his age 26-30 production in his age 31-35 seasons, but if he did he’d be at 95.2 WAR, good for 37th all time — sandwiched between Roberto Clemente and Cal Ripken. That’s inner circle for sure. The odds are against Mookie getting there by age 35, but if he’s blessed with decent health I think he’s likely to get there eventually.
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Jody Reed .... wrong place, wrong time
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/38037395/foul-ball-fractures-leg-marlins-third-base-coach-jody-reed
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/38037395/foul-ball-fractures-leg-marlins-third-base-coach-jody-reed
Good job, Henry and Chaim.
https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-red-sox/2023/07/24/mookie-betts-said-he-wanted-to-stay-with-the-red-sox-for-his-whole-career/?p1=hp_secondary
“I know people don’t believe it,” Betts said. “But I wanted to stay in Boston my whole career. That’s where I grew up. That’s my life. I knew everybody there. It was a short flight to Nashville. Like, everything was perfect.”
https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-red-sox/2023/07/24/mookie-betts-said-he-wanted-to-stay-with-the-red-sox-for-his-whole-career/?p1=hp_secondary
“I know people don’t believe it,” Betts said. “But I wanted to stay in Boston my whole career. That’s where I grew up. That’s my life. I knew everybody there. It was a short flight to Nashville. Like, everything was perfect.”
Well that settles it. He would have taken a reasonable contract to stay in Boston.
Then he probably should have taken the deal that was actually better value than the one he ended up taking
115 million in no interest deferred money, plus the tax difference, plus the Sox were offering to buy out 2 years of team control
COVID changed how Mookie approached free agency (ended up avoiding it), and the pandemic started a month after the trade went down. Nothing to be done there.
Yes. The Sox offered 10/300, Mookie counter-offered, and the Sox left the table and traded him. Had discussions continued there was a deal to be had.
Man, this seems to come up every year or so and every year, Mookie seems to get closer to saying he wishes he’d stayed in Boston.
"I wanted to stay in Boston, provided they give me what I asked for."
Obviously I made up that quote, but I mean, that's basically it. Which is absolutely his prerogative and it's totally fine for him to have that perspective. But clearly he wasn't interested in staying in Boston for less than what he wanted. Because they offered him three hundred million dollars - the largest contract (by miles) that they'd ever offered a player in franchise history - and he didn't take it.
But how did that offer stack up in all of MLB? That contract was offered after the 2019 season. Now, here are the largest contracts in MLB history:
1. Trout - 12 years, 426.5m (35.5m/year) - signed March 2019
2. Betts - 12 years, 365m (30.4m/year) - signed July 2020
3. Judge - 9 years, 360m (40m/year) - signed after the 2022 season
4. Machado - 11 years, 350m (31.8m/year) - signed Feb 2023
5. Lindor - 10 years, 341m (34.1m/year) - signed March 2021
6. Tatis - 14 years, 340m (24.3m/year) - signed Feb 2021
7. Harper - 13 years, 330m (25.4m/year) - signed spring 2019
8. Stanton - 13 years, 325m (25.0m/year) - signed after the 2014 season
9. Seager - 10 years, 325m (32.5m/year) - signed Dec 2021
10. Cole - 9 years, 324m (36.0m/year) - signed Dec 2019
11. Devers - 10 years, 313.5m (31.4m/year) - signed Jan 2023
12. Machado - 10 years, 300m (30.0m/year) - signed Feb 2019
Ok, so off this list (Machado is funny - he signed that, then a few years later they redid his contract so he's on this list twice!), the only ones that had been signed prior to the Sox offering that 10/300 deal for Betts were:
Trout - 12/426.5
Stanton - 13/325
Harper - 13/330
Machado - 10/300
So Betts' offer - and remember, he wasn't yet a free agent when the Sox offered it to him; it was just an "extension", hoping to avoid free agency - would have been, AT THE TIME, tied for the fourth largest in baseball history (by total dollars), and tied for second for the most dollars per year ever (more than Harper or Stanton on an annual basis). It would have been tied with Machado - who was a really good comp - and below only Trout, the best player in the world at the time.
So it wasn't like the Sox asked him to take some sort of hometown discount. They offered him a legit free market deal, even though he wasn't yet a free agent. It literally would have been the second best contract in MLB history (tied with Machado) behind only Trout.
And he said no thanks.
So yeah, he wanted to stay in Boston forever, but only if they gave him what he wanted. Maybe they just should have done that. It's a fair question. But they did, at the time, offer him a metric ton. And he said no.
Those are the facts.
Obviously I made up that quote, but I mean, that's basically it. Which is absolutely his prerogative and it's totally fine for him to have that perspective. But clearly he wasn't interested in staying in Boston for less than what he wanted. Because they offered him three hundred million dollars - the largest contract (by miles) that they'd ever offered a player in franchise history - and he didn't take it.
But how did that offer stack up in all of MLB? That contract was offered after the 2019 season. Now, here are the largest contracts in MLB history:
1. Trout - 12 years, 426.5m (35.5m/year) - signed March 2019
2. Betts - 12 years, 365m (30.4m/year) - signed July 2020
3. Judge - 9 years, 360m (40m/year) - signed after the 2022 season
4. Machado - 11 years, 350m (31.8m/year) - signed Feb 2023
5. Lindor - 10 years, 341m (34.1m/year) - signed March 2021
6. Tatis - 14 years, 340m (24.3m/year) - signed Feb 2021
7. Harper - 13 years, 330m (25.4m/year) - signed spring 2019
8. Stanton - 13 years, 325m (25.0m/year) - signed after the 2014 season
9. Seager - 10 years, 325m (32.5m/year) - signed Dec 2021
10. Cole - 9 years, 324m (36.0m/year) - signed Dec 2019
11. Devers - 10 years, 313.5m (31.4m/year) - signed Jan 2023
12. Machado - 10 years, 300m (30.0m/year) - signed Feb 2019
Ok, so off this list (Machado is funny - he signed that, then a few years later they redid his contract so he's on this list twice!), the only ones that had been signed prior to the Sox offering that 10/300 deal for Betts were:
Trout - 12/426.5
Stanton - 13/325
Harper - 13/330
Machado - 10/300
So Betts' offer - and remember, he wasn't yet a free agent when the Sox offered it to him; it was just an "extension", hoping to avoid free agency - would have been, AT THE TIME, tied for the fourth largest in baseball history (by total dollars), and tied for second for the most dollars per year ever (more than Harper or Stanton on an annual basis). It would have been tied with Machado - who was a really good comp - and below only Trout, the best player in the world at the time.
So it wasn't like the Sox asked him to take some sort of hometown discount. They offered him a legit free market deal, even though he wasn't yet a free agent. It literally would have been the second best contract in MLB history (tied with Machado) behind only Trout.
And he said no thanks.
So yeah, he wanted to stay in Boston forever, but only if they gave him what he wanted. Maybe they just should have done that. It's a fair question. But they did, at the time, offer him a metric ton. And he said no.
Those are the facts.
This is a noble attempt, but I don’t think any further relitigation is going to change anybody’s mind about the Mookie situation at this point.
Those are the facts, except for the actual quote?
No.
The actual quote is “I know people don’t believe it, but I wanted to stay in Boston my whole career. That’s where I grew up. That’s my life. I knew everybody there. It was a short flight to Nashville. Like, everything was perfect.”
No.
The actual quote is “I know people don’t believe it, but I wanted to stay in Boston my whole career. That’s where I grew up. That’s my life. I knew everybody there. It was a short flight to Nashville. Like, everything was perfect.”
Right. But my made up quote was also reality, even if he didn't say it. The Red Sox offered him a dump truck full of money - the second best contract ever offered in the history of the sport up to that time. And he didn't take it. So clearly he wanted to stay in Boston, but only if they gave him a better offer.
Actions speak too, right?
The Red Sox also said they wanted to keep Jon Lester here for the rest of his career and then offered 4/70.
No player is going to stay in a place if they feel they are grossly undervalues.
Lester has nothing to do with Betts. They literally put on the table for Betts the second best contract in the history of the sport, and he wasn't even a free agent yet. He turned it down. You and I both wish they had offered him more, but the point stands - Betts wanted to stay here, but not if they were "only" going to offer him 10/300. Since then there's been a bunch of better contracts signed, but at that point in time, there was only one contract in the history of MLB better than that (Trout).
That's his quote...today. Saying this now costs him nothing. And it may be how he feels...TODAY. It could be that Mookie is just the type of person who is never really happy wherever he is. It's the old saw about the grass being greener, or how the present is a little dissatisfying because we live in the present, and life is always a little dissatisfying. Or maybe he never realized how good he had it in Boston until he left. Whatever it is, I'm sick of it. He's not a Red Sox, and I'm done bemoaning it. The only people who are still doing so are those who exist to complain about everything and use it as a cudgel to batter an ownership which has delivered four more championships than any of us could have imagined experiencing in fondest wishes when growing up, and currently has a team in contention led by some young exciting stars with more in the pipeline.
But feel free to go back to whining about his departure and carping about ownership's role in it.
THIS. Infinity times THIS!
Then stop participating in the discussion. You're not obligated to be here. This thread got bumped because Mookie gave a quote THIS WEEK about the Boston situation.
The four championships you refer to took place before this decision. Ownership made a decision that continues to resonate on and off the field and we are going to discuss it. It's very likely that this discussion will reasonably continue until the point the Sox win another WS, if that happens. Feel free to pass on it.
At the time 10/300 was made, no one thought that offer was likely to be accepted. IIRC that was the universal consensus, and at the time I thought 10/400 was the level it would require to get it done.
Nobody has ever signed a contract for that much over that long. Judge is the closest and he's one year short. If that's what it would take, then it was never going to happen.
This was pre-COVID. The pandemic threw the market into chaos for 2 years. Had it not happened I'm very confident the 10/400 level would have been passed, greatly passed, already.
Just read this morning that the Dodgers might have some interest in bringing him back.
I saw that. Also saw the Braves are interested in Duvall. I'm all for moving these guys who aren't going to be part of our future anyhow.
It's four years on already and only Judge, who had the Yankees handcuffed, has come close. If someone won't sign at a discount, won't sign at the current market rate for a superstar, and will only sign for what superstars might conceivably make four or five years down the road, they're not interested in signing.
Then maybe keep this stuff to the Mookie Redux thread so I'm not ambushed here by this overly stepped on crap whenever I check in on this thread to see if JBJ has caught on with another team. Because I know enough to stay out of that thread.
Or they were simply trying to bridge the gap. If he offered 10/400 as a counter-offer, then the team and player could work towards a compromise. Instead the team promptly left the table.
And yet even in that scenario, everything I laid out in post #218 is still true, and Mookie wanted to stay in Boston, but only if they paid him more than the second best contract ever offered to that point in MLB history. If they weren't going to do that, then no, he didn't want to stay in Boston.
I mean, the proof is in the events of actual history. They actually offered him that and he said no thanks.
Mookie made the decision to go to free agency. That isn’t negotiating to stay in Boston. It’s what every elite, young, in demand Free Agent with a good agent should do. The Sox made the decision not to risk losing him for nothing. Simple.
If Mookie wanted to stay in Boston because of friends and easy flights to Nashville. He would have stayed. Simple.
Alternate Universe - What do the Sox look like if they signed Mookie and Benintendi for around $50m?
- No Verdugo and Wong obviously
- No Story?
- No Mayer (but Xander?)
- Sale still on the books
- Starting pitching is sketch
- Is Devers traded or signed?
- Minors filled with replacements or lacking?
I might be wrong but it doesn’t feel like a division winner in 2023 and the forward outlook isn’t Dynasty material.
- No Verdugo and Wong obviously
- No Story?
- No Mayer (but Xander?)
- Sale still on the books
- Starting pitching is sketch
- Is Devers traded or signed?
- Minors filled with replacements or lacking?
I might be wrong but it doesn’t feel like a division winner in 2023 and the forward outlook isn’t Dynasty material.
The bolded is the key to the whole thing. The Sox made a great offer. But free agency is free agency. Even after trading him (so as not to lose him for nothing) the Sox would have had a chance to sign him once he hit FA after the 2020 season. Then COVID happenned in March and he took a similar offer from the Dodgers (two more years). He never hit free agency, where he might have gotten even more.
Seeing Mookie in another uniform hurts. That will never change. But this is not Lester, who was offered too little, or other similar examples.
Fact is, if he is not traded and COVID doesn't happen I still think he is not in Boston. Some other team like the Padres/Mets/Dodgers would have blown the Sox eventual offer out of the water, like what happened with Xander.
So, we'd have Mookie and Benintendi but no Verdugo, Wong, or Story. We possibly keep Xander, but lose Mayer.
Honestly, I'm ok with that development. Would've loved to keep Mookie. No Mayer behind him, people aren't looking to move Xander as easily.
People tend to forget the 2019 team had only 84 wins and was not trending in the right direction in terms of health and finances.
BUT BUT BUT…. They finished in 3rd place!!!
I'd take third place over where they were at last year. And this year. And 2020.
Serious question. Why do you follow if things are just so hopelessly bad?
Serious question, why do you think everything is going 100% right when reality tells you its not?
I haven't forgotten, but I still wish we were able to hold onto Mookie. I don't pretend to know if we walked from the table or he did, regardless of any subsequent quotes. Maybe they never met at the table in the first place?
I haven't forgotten much about them since I was old enough to start following them long before Nixon resigned. I reserve the right to applaud, boo, whatever as a fan.
BUT BUT BUT . . . they were an 87-win team by the Pythag, dealt with a number of significant injuries, and had three potential future hall-of-famers age-26 or younger. Yes, they also had two bad contracts, one of which has already expired, while the other is now only the 34th-biggest contract in MLB. But if two bad contracts are enough to scare you from locking down a core of 3 young, potential HOFers and make you undertake a 4+ year bridge period, then what's the point of being one of the richest teams in global sports?
Who said that things are going 100% right?
What was your reality when the Sox finished last in 2012, 2014 and 2015?
I’ll bet you were Mr. Positive.