Felix Doubront traded to Cubs

[smastroyin]

Back at the end of June 2013 many people around here thought Doubront and Lester were pretty functionally equivalent.  It's amazing that Doubront (despite some great bullpen help in the ALCS and WS) has seen his stock fall as far as Lester's has increased.

 

[StuckOnYouk]

I wouldn't bet the house but this trade could look really ugly in a couple years

 

[alwyn96]

 
His stuff ought to play a lot better vs NL lineups and especially in some of the low-offense road parks (SD, LAD).

 
Possibly, although the AL East isn't the offensive powerhouse it once was. TB and SEA are just about as pitcher-friendly.
 
He's had lots of opportunities to show he's more than a fungible 5th starter/swingman. Fortunately for him (and unfortunately for them) he's landed in a place that doesn't have many better options. 

 

[Stan Papi Was Framed]

I wouldn't bet the house but this trade could look really ugly in a couple years

sure, it's possible.  But it's hard to see how the Red Sox could keep Doubront given what he's said and how he's performed this year.  (he really went out on possibly the lowest note imaginable...)

 

[nvalvo]

Back at the end of June 2013 many people around here thought Doubront and Lester were pretty functionally equivalent.  It's amazing that Doubront (despite some great bullpen help in the ALCS and WS) has seen his stock fall as far as Lester's has increased.

 
Farrell and he don't seem to get along well. 

 

[Seels]

I've never thought highly of Felix. His fastball is meh, his control sucks, and he's too streaky. All in all a very -whatever- pitcher. Career whip of 1.476, career FIP of 4.28, era+ of 86? War of essentially 0?
 
Eh cya later.

 

 

[dcmissle]

And it took how many at-bats before he "arrived"? Patience when you are contending is hard but when you are rebuilding (and hopefully no-one is willing to still debate this) it is a must. 

This should be pinned.

He must have really pissed them off, as this could look ugly some day.


Not going to be one of those Attaboy Bens.

 

[LondonSox]

If he was prepared to be in the pen then I'd say why not try, not like he's expensive.
Giving him away for basically nothing seems like the team had had enough.

Hard to like the move.

 

[P'tucket rhymes with...]

If he was prepared to be in the pen then I'd say why not try, not like he's expensive.
Giving him away for basically nothing seems like the team had had enough.

Hard to like the move.

His statements to anyone with a microphone suggested otherwise.  
 
No place to put him, and aside from not having room I can understand why the FO wanted to get him away from the kids ASAP.

 

[DJnVa]

I wouldn't bet the house but this trade could look really ugly in a couple years

 
I wouldn't bet the house but this trade could look like nothing in a couple years.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

 
You give a guy to pitch, and learn, and pitch and learn, and pitch and learn, and pitch and learn, in games that don't really matter ... and he might just figure it out.
 
Some baseball players are blessed like Pedroia and are able to come up, assume leadership roles, figure everything out and contribute very early. Some take years. 

 
Yes, that's always been the problem for the Red Sox.  It's hard to give prospects a chance to prove themselves when you are trying to win 90 games a year.  (Witness threads on X and JBJ.)  Of course, if you don't give them a chance, usually some other teams will.

 

[jasail]

This should be pinned.

He must have really pissed them off, as this could look ugly some day.


Not going to be one of those Attaboy Bens.

 
He'll be 27 to start next season. He's put together exactly one good season (ERA+ still below 100) as an MLB pitcher and even then he was very inconsistent.  He does not have great stuff, he has not shown the dedication necessary to get the most out of what he has, he has demonstrated a persistent immaturity and he has become a problem personality. Sure, it's a possibility that he  turns it around and becomes a solid middle of the rotation pitcher, but it's equally (if not more) likely that he never puts it together and he flounders around the league for the next couple years and maybe becomes a journeyman reliever.
 
I get that they are selling low and doom and gloom abounds today, but if this comes to bite us in the arse, tip your cap to Felix and don't point your finger at Ben.  

 

[moondog80]

 
I wouldn't bet the house but this trade could look like nothing in a couple years.

 
That might be the most likely outcome.  Still, what worries me is that the chance is looks bad is still on the map while the chance it looks good is virtually nil.

 

[dcmissle]

 
He'll be 27 to start next season. He's put together exactly one good season (ERA+ still below 100) as an MLB pitcher and even then he was very inconsistent.  He does not have great stuff, he has not shown the dedication necessary to get the most out of what he has, he has demonstrated a persistent immaturity and he has become a problem personality. Sure, it's a possibility that he  turns it around and becomes a solid middle of the rotation pitcher, but it's equally (if not more) likely that he never puts it together and he flounders around the league for the next couple years and maybe becomes a journeyman reliever.
 
I get that they are selling low and doom and gloom abounds today, but if this comes to bite us in the arse, tip your cap to Felix and don't point your finger at Ben.  

Agree. The no brainier aspect to me is his toxicity around a bunch of kids who need to learn how to win and be professional. And keeping him seems unfair to Farrell too; his hands are more than full, and there are important things to be done the next two months.

Just don't top this off by biting on Beane's "quantity" offer for Lester, as the optics and morale will really fucking suck.

 

[alwyn96]

 
That might be the most likely outcome.  Still, what worries me is that the chance is looks bad is still on the map while the chance it looks good is virtually nil.

 
Even if Doubront does well in Chicago, it doesn't mean he would have done similarly in Boston. Boston has far more promising pitchers to sort through than Doubront. It's too bad they have to drop him for nothing, but you can't hoard all the prospects and all the pitchers. The 40-man only has so much room. 

 

[DJnVa]

 
Even if Doubront does well in Chicago, it doesn't mean he would have done similarly in Boston. Boston has far more promising pitchers to sort through than Doubront. It's too bad they have to drop him for nothing, but you can't hoard all the prospects and all the pitchers. The 40-man only has so much room. 

 
Also, couldn't he read the tea leaves? Peavy gone, Lackey and Lester may be gone. He would have likely had a chance at pitching a ton of innings next season. If they bypassed him again next year, then he *may* have more of a grievance. Of course, airing in the papers isn't the best way to handle it, no matter how legitimate.

 

[seantoo]

I wouldn't bet the house but this trade could look really ugly in a couple years

How very Glenn Ordway of you.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Inevitable given recent events, I suppose, but I'll choose to remember 2013 playoff Doubie.  He came in three times during the playoffs and was asked to try to hold down the fort to let the team come back or take a lead, and he did all three teams -- and the team did come back and win two of those, both of which were huge.
 
Easy to be annoyed at him on the way out for how he handled himself at times, but it's worth a footnote to mention that 2013 might not turn out as it did without him.

 

[mBiferi]

 

Alex Speier ‏@alexspeier  5m
Doubront deal not official yet, but Farrell said he doesn't believe in change of scenery notion. 'Work is always going to be needed.'
 

 
 
https://twitter.com/alexspeier/status/494578436602871809
 
Good riddance, Felix.

 

[moondog80]

 
Even if Doubront does well in Chicago, it doesn't mean he would have done similarly in Boston. Boston has far more promising pitchers to sort through than Doubront. It's too bad they have to drop him for nothing, but you can't hoard all the prospects and all the pitchers. The 40-man only has so much room. 

 
 
So what's the urgency?  If it's a 40 man roster thing, maybe you DFA him in case Baltimore or Pittsburgh or LA would like him as a throw in on the Lester deal?  Maybe he stays and gets another shot in the rotation and does well since they're seemingly trading everyone else away?  Were they not going to be able to get a useless minor leaguer in return had they waited?

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

 
 
So what's the urgency?  If it's a 40 man roster thing, maybe you DFA him in case Baltimore or Pittsburgh or LA would like him as a throw in on the Lester deal?  Maybe he stays and gets another shot in the rotation and does well since they're seemingly trading everyone else away?  Were they not going to be able to get a useless minor leaguer in return had they waited?

 
They do need a roster move to get Workman up so he can actually pitch tonight as scheduled.  Odds are that whatever they're getting from the Cubs is good enough to make the deal now rather than take a guess on whether someone else wants him a day or a week from now.

 

[Plympton91]

Farrell -- ouch.
 
I've always been skeptical of Doubront's true talent level, and recall his dedication first came into question in the spring of 2011, a year when a healthy and motivated Doubront might have staved off that awful collapse.  For that reason, he was never a favorite of mine.
 
But as some others have noted, this is a cautionary tale in holding on to a prospect for too long until they've burned through all their value.  He had a decent season and was still young in 2012, he followed up with another decent season and a sterling performance in the playoffs in 2013.  He probably had significant value last offseason; as Sox and Rox said, maybe even enough to have gotten Dexter Fowler, an outfielder who can hit and play all three outfield positions.
 
Holding on to prospects just as risky as trading them, and like others, I wouldn't bet against Doubront increasing his effectiveness in a nonlinear way when he gets to have a pitcher once every nine batters to make his bad innings a little less bad.
 
 
 

 
They do need a roster move to get Workman up so he can actually pitch tonight as scheduled.  Odds are that whatever they're getting from the Cubs is good enough to make the deal now rather than take a guess on whether someone else wants him a day or a week from now.

 
And they need to make a move to get Workman up because they can't pitch Jon Lester because they didn't sign him in spring training like they should have.  So, in a sense, you should look at any trade involving Jon Lester as including this trade in your calculus of its costs and benefits.  Seems like with Farrell's quote above, the Red Sox consider Doubront's worth to be zero now and probably going forward, but if you were one of the many SOSH posters who as recently as this May were touting Doubront as a mainstay of the Sox future rotation, this one has to hurt a little bit.

 

[mabrowndog]

 
 
So what's the urgency?  If it's a 40 man roster thing, maybe you DFA him in case Baltimore or Pittsburgh or LA would like him as a throw in on the Lester deal?  Maybe he stays and gets another shot in the rotation and does well since they're seemingly trading everyone else away?  Were they not going to be able to get a useless minor leaguer in return had they waited?

 
Read the Tweet quoting Farrell a few of posts upthread.
 
Translation: Felix Doubront convinced himself he no longer needed to work hard, believing he'd arrived where he needed to be and would always stay there regardless.
 
It makes total sense and mirrors Doubront's recent comments about having already proved himself.
 
Pitchers Wanted: Lazy & entitled fucks need not apply.

 

[C4CRVT]

This will be his "Clemens in Toronto" phase.

 

[nvalvo]

 
 
So what's the urgency?  If it's a 40 man roster thing, maybe you DFA him in case Baltimore or Pittsburgh or LA would like him as a throw in on the Lester deal?  Maybe he stays and gets another shot in the rotation and does well since they're seemingly trading everyone else away?  Were they not going to be able to get a useless minor leaguer in return had they waited?

 
Well, the trade deadline, for one thing. 

 

[Sprowl]

His statements to anyone with a microphone suggested otherwise.  
 
No place to put him, and aside from not having room I can understand why the FO wanted to get him away from the kids ASAP.

That is the best reason I can think of for selling an experienced, cost-controlled, moderately effective starter so low -- or what I suspect will be low when the player is finally named. This looks like a chemistry dump: Doubront forced the team's hand by going public and then stinking up the joint at Fenway.
 
Carp actually has a use while Napoli is hurting, and seems to have been more respectful, judging by the media accounts.
 
Theo suggested that it wasn't that difficult to get middlish starting pitchers, and now he shows it in a good move for the Cubs.
 
edit: Farrell is harsh, but sets the tone well. I have confidence that the Red Sox can manage the tail end of a losing season with less rancour and more professionalism than the Last Days of Bobby the Fifth.

 

[moondog80]

 
Well, the trade deadline, for one thing. 

 
Which is not for 24 hours.
 
 
It just seems to me that there some chance one of the teams we are talking to about Lester would smile kindly on Doubie as a throw in, and that right there is worth more than a non-prospect from the Cubs.  And you could just DFA him for now until you work that out so the spot opens up for Workman.   Worst case scenario is nobody wants him and we lose out on a non-prospect.

 

[jimv]

That is the best reason I can think of for selling an experienced, cost-controlled, moderately effective starter so low -- or what I suspect will be low when the player is finally named. This looks like a chemistry dump: Doubront forced the team's hand by going public and then stinking up the joint at Fenway.
 
Carp actually has a use while Napoli is hurting, and seems to have been more respectful, judging by the media accounts.
 
Theo suggested that it wasn't that difficult to get middlish starting pitchers, and now he shows it in a good move for the Cubs.
 
edit: Farrell is harsh, but sets the tone well. . I have confidence that the Red Sox can manage the tail end of a losing season with less rancour and more professionalism than the Last Days of Bobby the Fifth

or the interregnum of Joe Kerrigan. Maybe the 2013 season gave the front office some reason to give more weight to clubhouse chemistry than they have in the past

 

[Snodgrass'Muff]

 
Which is not for 24 hours.
 
 
It just seems to me that there some chance one of the teams we are talking to about Lester would smile kindly on Doubie as a throw in, and that right there is worth more than a non-prospect from the Cubs.  And you could just DFA him for now until you work that out so the spot opens up for Workman.   Worst case scenario is nobody wants him and we lose out on a non-prospect.

 
Doubront torpedoed his value. They weren't getting much more for him and probably valued the flexibility this traded offers over any potential increase in the return. If they don't make a deal for Lester or Lackey in the next two hours, this trade allows them to keep Workman on the roster. It allows them to push discussions into the evening or tomorrow without having to make another roster move.

 

[soxfan121]

I wouldn't bet the house but this trade could look really ugly in a couple years

 
At the very least, we've heard the last of Jay Payton. 

 

[Granite Sox]

Farrell -- ouch.
 
I've always been skeptical of Doubront's true talent level, and recall his dedication first came into question in the spring of 2011, a year when a healthy and motivated Doubront might have staved off that awful collapse.  For that reason, he was never a favorite of mine.
 
But as some others have noted, this is a cautionary tale in holding on to a prospect for too long until they've burned through all their value.  He had a decent season and was still young in 2012, he followed up with another decent season and a sterling performance in the playoffs in 2013. ...
 
<snip>

 
I'd venture to say the Sox got his best value (to the Sox) during last year's playoffs.  If he somehow turns into Tommy Glavine in two more years, it's still two years too late for the Sox.  He's old enough and has been around the MLB team long enough to know better, screw his head on right, and apply the proper discipline and dedication to his craft.  With a surfeit of pitchers chomping at the bit for their chance, I woudn't expect any dropoff in value whatsoever.
 
I have zero concerns this deal will burn the Sox in any fashion.
 
Thank you, Felix.

 

[mabrowndog]

Pete Abraham ‏@PeteAbe 1m
#RedSox acknowledge Doubront traded to Cubs for PTBNL.

 

[Corsi]

https://twitter.com/MLBRosterMoves/status/494599324265746432

 

[mauf]

My son has had the chance to meet a few Sox players. All of them were gracious, but Doubront was even more so than the others. Thanks Felix. Sorry to see you go.

 

[Carmen Fanzone]

If Farrell's comments on the way out warranted "ouch," the reaction from his new club isn't very different.
 
Peter Gammons ‏@pgammo  4m
Cubs official:"Felix(Doubront) gets one last chance to grow up."

 

[TomRicardo]

Pete Abraham ‏@PeteAbe 1m
#RedSox acknowledge Doubront traded to Cubs for PTBNL.

 
Best guess, Kevin Encarnacion.

 

[Stitch01]

Farrell -- ouch.
 
I've always been skeptical of Doubront's true talent level, and recall his dedication first came into question in the spring of 2011, a year when a healthy and motivated Doubront might have staved off that awful collapse.  For that reason, he was never a favorite of mine.
 
But as some others have noted, this is a cautionary tale in holding on to a prospect for too long until they've burned through all their value.  He had a decent season and was still young in 2012, he followed up with another decent season and a sterling performance in the playoffs in 2013.  He probably had significant value last offseason; as Sox and Rox said, maybe even enough to have gotten Dexter Fowler, an outfielder who can hit and play all three outfield positions.
 
Holding on to prospects just as risky as trading them, and like others, I wouldn't bet against Doubront increasing his effectiveness in a nonlinear way when he gets to have a pitcher once every nine batters to make his bad innings a little less bad.
 
 
 

 
And they need to make a move to get Workman up because they can't pitch Jon Lester because they didn't sign him in spring training like they should have.  So, in a sense, you should look at any trade involving Jon Lester as including this trade in your calculus of its costs and benefits.  Seems like with Farrell's quote above, the Red Sox consider Doubront's worth to be zero now and probably going forward, but if you were one of the many SOSH posters who as recently as this May were touting Doubront as a mainstay of the Sox future rotation, this one has to hurt a little bit.

It sucks because he has some talent and they ended up having to give him away but no, this isn't the result of the Jon Lester situation.

 

[TomRicardo]

If Farrell's comments on the way out warranted "ouch," the reaction from his new club isn't very different.
 
Peter Gammons ‏@pgammo  4m
Cubs official:"Felix(Doubront) gets one last chance to grow up."

 
Probably Theo himself.  I mean he is a known quantity to the Cubs FO.
 
Wonder what Rick Renteria is going to say to him.  

 

[Reverend]

My son has had the chance to meet a few Sox players. All of them were gracious, but Doubront was even more so than the others. Thanks Felix. Sorry to see you go.

 
You mean the kid who loves Punto and the Jacksonville Jaguars? Kiss of death!
 
In all seriousness, though, I've sorta given up on Doubront over time. I was really intrigued by him as a rookie with a great curve and already was unafraid of coming up and in on Major Leaguers and I contributed heavily to the thread on him that year with the graphs and whatnot.
 
But it's like he never really improved, and his Ks and FB velocity have been dropping steadily. If Farrell sees this as in any way a function of not wanting to put in work, I'm not surprised to see him given the heave-ho given the professional environment they've put in place there since Bobby V.

 

[tomdeplonty]

It seems kind of amazing they're making a public shot over the bow even as they're acquiring him. He must be a huge pain in the ass.

 

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

The biggest thing against Doubront for me was his stamina. He could be effective but it was rarely for more than 5 or 6 innings. Every year I expected that to change and it just plateaued. Good luck Chicago. 

 

[mfried]

The biggest thing against Doubront for me was his stamina. He could be effective but it was rarely for more than 5 or 6 innings. Every year I expected that to change and it just plateaued. Good luck Chicago. 

This will sound harsh: I was looking forward to Felix's departure as a major benefit of the trade deadline.  Not so with Lester, who was a pleasure to watch.  Lackey threw strikes but I won't miss him much.

 

[Sprowl]

 
You mean the kid who loves Punto and the Jacksonville Jaguars? Kiss of death!
 
In all seriousness, though, I've sorta given up on Doubront over time. I was really intrigued by him as a rookie with a great curve and already was unafraid of coming up and in on Major Leaguers and I contributed heavily to the thread on him that year with the graphs and whatnot.
 
But it's like he never really improved, and his Ks and FB velocity have been dropping steadily. If Farrell sees this as in any way a function of not wanting to put in work, I'm not surprised to see him given the heave-ho given the professional environment they've put in place there since Bobby V.

 
Young Doubront had a ton of promise -- he never should have given up on the 4-seamer up and in to RHB. He turned into a nibbler instead. The big-bending curve was fun, the changeup is still a fine pitch, but his control never improved and the velocity peaked early. Every uptick in velocity was just a headfake in the long-term downtrend.

 

[NJ Fan]

If Farrell's comments on the way out warranted "ouch," the reaction from his new club isn't very different.
 
Peter Gammons ‏@pgammo  4m
Cubs official:"Felix(Doubront) gets one last chance to grow up."

I just heard more of Farrell's comments on the Sox pre-game on NESN and he couldn't have been more complimentary of Doubront's WS relief appearances, so it wasn't just the "sexy" negative sound bite.

 

[mauf]

 
You mean the kid who loves Punto and the Jacksonville Jaguars? Kiss of death!
 
In all seriousness, though, I've sorta given up on Doubront over time. I was really intrigued by him as a rookie with a great curve and already was unafraid of coming up and in on Major Leaguers and I contributed heavily to the thread on him that year with the graphs and whatnot.
 
But it's like he never really improved, and his Ks and FB velocity have been dropping steadily. If Farrell sees this as in any way a function of not wanting to put in work, I'm not surprised to see him given the heave-ho given the professional environment they've put in place there since Bobby V.

Yup.

And even I don't object to the move. A corollary of believing clubhouse culture matters is occasionally being willing to sell low on a guy who is detrimental to that culture. Even if Dubi's attitude problems were nothing but frustration with his own struggles sinking his career prospects in a pitching-rich organization, the Sox are better off not having him vent those frustrations here.

 

[Harry Hooper]

Felix may finally have the alarm clock go off with this trade and do well, but it wasn't going to happen in Boston sadly. No problems with this trade.

 

[Al Zarilla]

Felix may finally have the alarm clock go off with this trade and do well, but it wasn't going to happen in Boston sadly. No problems with this trade.

I don't know, a guy that showed up year after year out of shape, and just didn't look like he gave a shit whether he was pitching a good game or a stinker... something missing there. I'll pull for Franklin Morales before I pull for Felix.

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

Thank you, Felix.

 
Pity he doesn't get a thread.

 

[Reverend]

I don't know, a guy that showed up year after year out of shape, and just didn't look like he gave a shit whether he was pitching a good game or a stinker... something missing there. I'll pull for Franklin Morales before I pull for Felix.

 
Except this year he didn't spend the whole off-season in Venezuela and instead trained hard, sometimes in formal activities, and showed up in shape.
 
Money Quote:
“I’m growing up,” said Doubront, who spoke with what for him was unusual confidence.
 
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/02/14/red-sox-felix-doubront-arrives-shape-confident/DYVL0Yq1CdEQt6zgg8bIFJ/story.html

 

[Al Zarilla]

 
Except this year he didn't spend the whole off-season in Venezuela and instead trained hard, sometimes in formal activities, and showed up in shape.
 
Money Quote:
“I’m growing up,” said Doubront, who spoke with what for him was unusual confidence.
 
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/02/14/red-sox-felix-doubront-arrives-shape-confident/DYVL0Yq1CdEQt6zgg8bIFJ/story.html

Yes, I knew he reported in better shape this year, but after a while it didn't seem to make any difference. I think what he needed instead (or in addition) was "shove red hot poker up ass" camp.