Cora, Cora, Cora!
- Thread starter dhappy42
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I was definitely expecting Pivetta to be the next man up. 30 pitches on Friday and then two off days. And honestly you really only needed 1.2 innings from him once Maldonado popped out. Assuming Martin/Jansen were available
I wonder what Tampa is paying him. He might be too valuable as a pitching coach. I would love to get him to Boston somehow.
Why is itt indefensible? None of the high leverage relievers were available tonight. Cora was playing the long game tonight. Once the game got out of hand; give up tonight's game and hopefully win the series. Calm down please.
I don't give a shit about "unavailable" and "preserving arms". There's a month left to the season. Every bullpen is worn down. This is twice in four games that Cora let a reliever with a lead get absolutely pounded (Pivetta on Friday).
It was totally understandable trying to sneak a couple extra outs against the bottom of the lineup with Bear Claw, but after two walks and an out and the lineup turning over to Altuve, you get him the hell out of there. Llovera threw nine pitches yesterday, and not that he's a great option, but he's allowed one earned run in his last six outings and he can at least keep the game within striking distance while getting a few outs. Stretch Martin and Jansen if you have to.
It was totally understandable trying to sneak a couple extra outs against the bottom of the lineup with Bear Claw, but after two walks and an out and the lineup turning over to Altuve, you get him the hell out of there. Llovera threw nine pitches yesterday, and not that he's a great option, but he's allowed one earned run in his last six outings and he can at least keep the game within striking distance while getting a few outs. Stretch Martin and Jansen if you have to.
Outside of Llovera and the revolving last roster spot (and even that spot wasn't really that for awhile with Murphy) who does this describe in the current Sox bullpen?
edit… timing. @HangingW/ScottCooper yes, we are on the same page.
Sorry to derail the conversation; let’s get back to the wailing and teeth gnashing about the latest Cora usage policy failure… with which I wholeheartedly agree. WTF was that?
Sorry to derail the conversation; let’s get back to the wailing and teeth gnashing about the latest Cora usage policy failure… with which I wholeheartedly agree. WTF was that?
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Care to offer examples? If I'm reading you correctly, you are stating that Cora called down to the pen and guys literally refused to go into the game. I know we're all frustrated by recent developments; but that's a very serious charge. I would think and hope that any player in any sport who refuses to go play when asked would be released on the spot (assuming no injury). To just throw out accusations like that is not right.
I thought last night while watching Bear Claw give up baserunner after baserunner that Cora (and/or the FO) decided to punt this one once Sale's start was crappy and have the new guy wear it to preserve the pen for future games.
That almost makes sense, until you think that there's no guarantee that the future results will be worth throwing your bullpen's best at. It was a close came when the 6th started. And I think Houston just got another baserunner off Bear Claw somehow this morning.
That almost makes sense, until you think that there's no guarantee that the future results will be worth throwing your bullpen's best at. It was a close came when the 6th started. And I think Houston just got another baserunner off Bear Claw somehow this morning.
Well, it was totally worth gassing the bullpen to split 2-2 with HOU, so we could take 1 of 3 from LAD, so we can lose the first game of the next HOU series.
And somewhere, in all of that Alex Cora had no choices, and takes no responsibility.
So let's take a look at those last 10 games or so. 1 IP per reliever unless noted.
8-18. NYY (w) Bello 6 IP, 98 pit. Up 7-1, Cora uses: Whitlock, Bernardino (0.1), Martin (0.2).
8-19. NYY (w) Crawford 6 IP, 82 pit. Up 6-1, Cora uses: Schreiber, Llovera (2).
8-20. NYY (w) Winckowski/Pivetta 6 IP, 95 pit. Tied, Cora uses: Schreiber (.2), Bernardino (.1), Martin, Jansen.
8-21. HOU (l) Paxton 4 IP, 101 pit. Down 4-3, Cora uses: Murphy (4) 80 pit.
8-23. HOU (w) Sale 5 IP, 80 pit. Tied, Cora uses: Whitlock (2), Martin, Jansen (.1), Pivetta (.2), Winckowski.
8-24. HOU (w) Bello 7 IP, 103 pit. Up 13-1, Cora uses: Llovera (2).
8-25. LAD (l) Crawford 5 IP, 86 pit. Up 3-0 (runners on), Cora uses: Pivetta (2), Bernardino (.2), Schreiber 1.1.
8-26. LAD (w) Paxton 4.1 IP, 92 pit. Down 4-2, Cora uses: Winckowski (1.1), Bernardino (.1), Whitlock (1.2), Martin (.1), Schreiber (1).
8-28. HOU (l) Sale, 4.2 IP, 92 pit. Up 4-3, Cora uses: Barraclough (4.1)
8-29. HOU (Bello)
8-30. HOU (Crawford)
8-31. Day off
9-1. KCR
This is what I see. Cora used his better pitchers with leads in NYC, then had an all-hands-on-deck game to win the clincher, even though we had a stretch against a WC opponent (HOU) coming up, and he knew Houck was getting activated. This is what managing scared looks like. He will later rely on the Boston sports media to cry "but he has no pitchers."
The first HOU game is a quasi-punt, following a Meh Paxton start. Cora burns out Murphy (who was going to AAA for Houck anyway.)
The second HOU game results in a recovering Houck getting pulled at 69 pit. with a mix of relievers used. (The need for relievers for this game was obvious weeks ago.)
The third HOU game results in pulling Sale early, and going all-hands because they need to split.
The fourth HOU game is a gift: Bello goes 7, Llovera is in garbage innings (but no position player pitcher is used to save the pen.)
The first LAD game is an early pull of Crawford, followed by using the better relievers.
The second LAD game is a panicky all-hands game, to pull out a win. Again, Cora knows Houck is pitching, and HOU is coming up again.
The third LAD game is Houck at 80 pit., and Cora uses Murphy again.
The first HOU game is a pure punt. Even though they're leading, Cora throws Barraclough to the wolves and blames him later.
IF Bello goes long tonight, Cora will throw everyone at HOU for the finale.
And somewhere, in all of that Alex Cora had no choices, and takes no responsibility.
So let's take a look at those last 10 games or so. 1 IP per reliever unless noted.
8-18. NYY (w) Bello 6 IP, 98 pit. Up 7-1, Cora uses: Whitlock, Bernardino (0.1), Martin (0.2).
8-19. NYY (w) Crawford 6 IP, 82 pit. Up 6-1, Cora uses: Schreiber, Llovera (2).
8-20. NYY (w) Winckowski/Pivetta 6 IP, 95 pit. Tied, Cora uses: Schreiber (.2), Bernardino (.1), Martin, Jansen.
8-21. HOU (l) Paxton 4 IP, 101 pit. Down 4-3, Cora uses: Murphy (4) 80 pit.
(Houck returns from IL, Murphy to AAA.)
8-22. HOU (l) Houck 5 IP, 69 pit. Down 3-0, Cora uses: Winckowski, Llovera, Bernardino.8-23. HOU (w) Sale 5 IP, 80 pit. Tied, Cora uses: Whitlock (2), Martin, Jansen (.1), Pivetta (.2), Winckowski.
8-24. HOU (w) Bello 7 IP, 103 pit. Up 13-1, Cora uses: Llovera (2).
8-25. LAD (l) Crawford 5 IP, 86 pit. Up 3-0 (runners on), Cora uses: Pivetta (2), Bernardino (.2), Schreiber 1.1.
8-26. LAD (w) Paxton 4.1 IP, 92 pit. Down 4-2, Cora uses: Winckowski (1.1), Bernardino (.1), Whitlock (1.2), Martin (.1), Schreiber (1).
(Bernardino to IL, Murphy up from AAA.)
8-27 LAD (l) Houck 4 IP, 80 pit. Down 1-0, Cora uses: Murphy (4), Llovera. (Murphy to AAA, Barraclough up from AAA.)
8-28. HOU (l) Sale, 4.2 IP, 92 pit. Up 4-3, Cora uses: Barraclough (4.1)
8-29. HOU (Bello)
8-30. HOU (Crawford)
8-31. Day off
9-1. KCR
This is what I see. Cora used his better pitchers with leads in NYC, then had an all-hands-on-deck game to win the clincher, even though we had a stretch against a WC opponent (HOU) coming up, and he knew Houck was getting activated. This is what managing scared looks like. He will later rely on the Boston sports media to cry "but he has no pitchers."
The first HOU game is a quasi-punt, following a Meh Paxton start. Cora burns out Murphy (who was going to AAA for Houck anyway.)
The second HOU game results in a recovering Houck getting pulled at 69 pit. with a mix of relievers used. (The need for relievers for this game was obvious weeks ago.)
The third HOU game results in pulling Sale early, and going all-hands because they need to split.
The fourth HOU game is a gift: Bello goes 7, Llovera is in garbage innings (but no position player pitcher is used to save the pen.)
The first LAD game is an early pull of Crawford, followed by using the better relievers.
The second LAD game is a panicky all-hands game, to pull out a win. Again, Cora knows Houck is pitching, and HOU is coming up again.
The third LAD game is Houck at 80 pit., and Cora uses Murphy again.
The first HOU game is a pure punt. Even though they're leading, Cora throws Barraclough to the wolves and blames him later.
IF Bello goes long tonight, Cora will throw everyone at HOU for the finale.
Yeah, this is kind of where I'm at. It's not unusual to see guys take one for the team and absorb the pain to save the rest of the bullpen. But given the Sox had a lead in a game they desperately needed to win, did they really have NO better options?
Cora said he was effective in AAA and threw strikes.
So like whose fault is it when he's called up and clearly cannot find the plate?
Watch the presser and form your own opinion. I didn't see Cora expressing much concern for BC.
Yeah, just from the game itself it was clear that Cora was gonna have BC wear it.
Bear Claw is basically Bobby Dalbec. He's been great in AAA, but his walks are a tad high even there, he's just good enough to limit hard contact against AAA hitters. Not so much against MLB hitters, & especially a good team like the Astros. So he presses & gets even wilder.
He didn’t really throw strikes in AAA (3.6 BB rate), but I took that quote as Cora saying that he was told he was doing well and this was the guy who was going to pitch multiple innings b/c his medical staff is telling him other guys shouldn’t. YMMV.
Obviously, Plan A was: Barraclough is effective, gets you through the 7th inning, you use Winckowski and Martin to finish the game.
There was a Plan B available: They could have started warming Winckowski up to start the 6th with the idea of bringing him in if Barraclough got into trouble. But if you bring Winckowski in to finish the 6th, you've then got to get nine more outs from somewhere. So you'd have to stretch Winckowski to get through the 7th, likely meaning he can't pitch tomorrow, and then you have three unappealing options for the 8th: another inning from Winckowski (which likely rules him out the rest of the series), Llovera, or trying to get two innings from Martin (which rules him out at least for tomorrow).
Maybe you run that gauntlet if it gets you a win. But the idea of doing it when you're already behind is really unappealing, because blowing out the bullpen in a loss is the worst-case scenario. So once Altuve tripled, there was a pretty persuasive argument for letting Barraclough either get out of it or wear it.
Basically, they really, really needed Sale and Barraclough to get them through, or at least into, the 7th inning. They didn't. And thus the game was lost. The rest was just necessary ugliness.
There was a Plan B available: They could have started warming Winckowski up to start the 6th with the idea of bringing him in if Barraclough got into trouble. But if you bring Winckowski in to finish the 6th, you've then got to get nine more outs from somewhere. So you'd have to stretch Winckowski to get through the 7th, likely meaning he can't pitch tomorrow, and then you have three unappealing options for the 8th: another inning from Winckowski (which likely rules him out the rest of the series), Llovera, or trying to get two innings from Martin (which rules him out at least for tomorrow).
Maybe you run that gauntlet if it gets you a win. But the idea of doing it when you're already behind is really unappealing, because blowing out the bullpen in a loss is the worst-case scenario. So once Altuve tripled, there was a pretty persuasive argument for letting Barraclough either get out of it or wear it.
Basically, they really, really needed Sale and Barraclough to get them through, or at least into, the 7th inning. They didn't. And thus the game was lost. The rest was just necessary ugliness.
Yeah, if you're not yanking Barraclough before Altuve's at bat (and in slight defense of Barraclough, Duvall 100% misplayed that), it's difficult to argue for burning the pen after that. I know that the real death blow was Alvarez, but things happened so quick it probably didn't matter. If Winck wasn't up in time to face Altuve, they weren't getting him up in time to face Alvarez. After Alvarez, sacrificing Barraclough to preserve the rest of the pen was probably the prudent choice. Even if it was frustrating to watch from our perspective.
But they weren't behind until Altuve's triple... which by then it was obvious that The Claw had no idea how to find the strike zone... Winckowski could have pitched to Altuve and Bregman and perhaps we strand two runners and enter the bottom of the 6th with a lead..
Edit: Or what Red(s)HawksFan said...
The 9th was the only inning where Bear Claw didn't allow any runs. Maybe only because the Astros hitters were exhausted from teeing off on him all night, but still.
It's turning into a real innings issue here as well. Looking at the breakdown from @Rovin Romine, you can see that they're just basically running out of arms. It shouldn't be a case where the manager is "punting" games once a series. If you look at our current roster, how would you try to get through 1,450 innings? 13 pitchers puts you at an average of just over 100 IP per pitcher. Obviously if you have an effective starting rotation with 2 or 3 guys getting to 150 IP, then the rest of the staff only needs to get through 1000 innings. Other than Bello, no one is going to get over 150 IP this year, so more and more pure innings are falling on the rest of the staff.
Of course we all know that the trend away from the 200 IP pitcher is league-wide and been in process for quite some time, but if we're really expecting a starting rotation to get through no more than 750 innings in a best-case scenario before the season even starts, then you need a relief staff that can get through another 700. That's a lot to ask of 7-8 relief pitcher roster spots, as it's nearly 100 innings per spot. I know that pitchers get injured and that you won't actually have only 13 pitchers in a season, but you're still asking that load of a "slot" in the roster.
Anyway, it's all to say what others have said probably more clearly. A bunch of 4-5 inning starts leads to you ripping through relief pitchers at an unsustainable rate, OR you punt games by cycling in Bearclaws and Dermodys just to get through the game.
Of course we all know that the trend away from the 200 IP pitcher is league-wide and been in process for quite some time, but if we're really expecting a starting rotation to get through no more than 750 innings in a best-case scenario before the season even starts, then you need a relief staff that can get through another 700. That's a lot to ask of 7-8 relief pitcher roster spots, as it's nearly 100 innings per spot. I know that pitchers get injured and that you won't actually have only 13 pitchers in a season, but you're still asking that load of a "slot" in the roster.
Anyway, it's all to say what others have said probably more clearly. A bunch of 4-5 inning starts leads to you ripping through relief pitchers at an unsustainable rate, OR you punt games by cycling in Bearclaws and Dermodys just to get through the game.
It’s not clear at all, to me at least, that Winckowski was available. Seems like he should have been, but when specifically asked about him, Cora indicated he trusted the medical staff / people.
I think part of their bullpen issue relates to guys they were expecting to be able to taxi between Worcester & Boston being injured - Kelly, Mills, Mata & Ort. So instead of being able to keep a couple guys fresh & ready to go, they have been using org filler to try to keep the bullpen guys rested.
I do of course understand the issues with Ort the pitcher.
Also Crawford being forced into the rotation & Winck being forced into short relief doesn't help. Just a matter of continuing to build up more & better depth.
I do of course understand the issues with Ort the pitcher.
Also Crawford being forced into the rotation & Winck being forced into short relief doesn't help. Just a matter of continuing to build up more & better depth.
He threw 1 2/3 innings on Saturday and really labored to get that final 2/3. I wouldn't be surprised if he was still feeling it yesterday and wasn't available.
trs is right, this is a problem with the starters not going deep enough and all the games without an off day. Asking the same 8 bullpen guys to cover 5 innings every night is going to burn them out. Even if Winck were available to put out the fire in the 6th, you'd need 3 innings from Martin and Llovera if Jansen is still not ready to go. And Martin hasn't gone a second inning in any game all year.
Unfortunately this is what happens to your bullpen when you go a month with only 3 starters who don't always go deep into games themselves and the pen has to cover the rest of the innings. That part isn't Cora's fault although I do often disagree with his decisions about when or if to bring in a reliever.
Right, but if you wanted Winckowski to pitch to Altuve, you would have needed to have him warming at the start of the inning. And given that Barraclough had gotten out of the fifth, there was really no reason to jump to the conclusion that he was about to implode.
The signing of either Eo 11-3 or Wacha 10-2 or both would have helped this team immensely this year. They did neither.
Winck has the third most IP of all relievers and has been looking worn out all month, I assume they looked at the tandem of him and Llovera and figured they were both as likely to blow a close game vs good hitters as BC. Certainly bringing one of them in in the 6th to try to put out that fire didn't make sense.
Eo is currently on the IL with forearm tightness and Wacha made one start between 6/19 and 8/15. They would have fit right in here!
Eovaldi has been on the IL since the middle of July and Wacha hasn't pitched more than 5 1/3 innings in a start in over two months. They may have helped earlier in the season, but not much now.
Ooooorrrrr. . .you work with your starters to go deeper into games. You work with your relief corps to cycle enough fresh arms to have actual options. You work with your GM to get fresh arms up and down from AAA (a la Murphy).
But you don't prioritize strikeouts and manage the pen like Mr. Magoo.
This is going to turn into one of those bullshit memes that gets constantly recirculated here, isn't it?
And how do you know that this isn’t going on? Maybe the pitchers that he’s getting just aren’t good enough.
I feel like every thread in this forum can be summed up by saying “they need more good players”. Because that’s the issue, they don’t currently have enough MLB talent to be a playoff team.
The issue for the Sox right now is not that the relief corps is miserable or that Cora is mismanaging everything -- there's quite a few good relievers -- it's that the starting pitchers haven't been able to go more than five innings. They desperately needed Paxton and Sale to pitch like aces and they've both been pretty mediocre their last couple of starts. Both of their peripherals still look good, and there's the issues with the defense, etc, but the results have just not been there.
And yet they're still in striking distance. I thought this team would have a puncher's chance at the playoffs if they stayed healthy, and they didn't in the first half, and now that there's a month to go there's no room for error, and so all of these mistakes are magnified... but a lot of what we're complaining about/frustrated by is what happens when you try to rebuild a team on the fly.
This is the bottom line. We want this team to be good now, but the bottom line is they just haven't had the personnel, or the personnel hasn't been healthy. Kluber, Whitlock, Houck and Sale all went down with injuries or were ineffective.
And yet they're still in striking distance. I thought this team would have a puncher's chance at the playoffs if they stayed healthy, and they didn't in the first half, and now that there's a month to go there's no room for error, and so all of these mistakes are magnified... but a lot of what we're complaining about/frustrated by is what happens when you try to rebuild a team on the fly.