Cora, Cora, Cora!

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Paxton has put a bit of pressure on the team for the last two months. He can’t get through the 5th and gives up about 3-4 runs doing it. Couple that with Crawford seeming to have an 80 pitch limit as a starter, and we just have nothing going. Whitlock sucks this year, but at least he could get into the sixth inning reliably when he was a starter. They needed to get another 30-40 innings out of starters this year, and just didn’t have the horses.

 

[Rovin Romine]

Prioritizing strikeouts is direction coming from Cora?

Oh right - I forgot the pitching coach is a completely independent actor, and Cora's just along for the ride.

And how do you know that this isn’t going on? Maybe the pitchers that he’s getting just aren’t good enough.

I feel like every thread in this forum can be summed up by saying “they need more good players”. Because that’s the issue, they don’t currently have enough MLB talent to be a playoff team.

This is just assuming a conclusion. Sure, there are a variety of pitchers that move through the org. Some are better than others. But it's an org. Meaning, there are coaches and managers who are there to get the most out of the staff. Ultimately, Cora gets what he gets, and it's up to him to develop it, to use it wisely, to maximize it in pursuit of wins.

Any manager can be great with the best bullpen in the world, and a limitless supply of replacements. That's a given. The first question is: "Can Cora and his coaches effectively use the talent given to win ballgames?"

So far, on the whole, I'd say one of Cora's weaknesses is handling the pitching staff. Reasonable minds can disagree as to the impact of that, but I don't think anyone can seriously argue that Cora (and staff) are a "+" when it comes to handling pitching. He's mechanical and short-sighted, lacking a sense of "the moment" or a feel for individual games.

A reasonable second question is: "Are they getting enough talent?" That's harder to answer if they're mismanaging it.

While they've acquired and gotten some good runs out of unheralded pitchers (especially last year), they've also abjectly failed at getting the entire starting pitching staff to go deeper into games. Houck, Whitlock, Sale, Crawford, and until recently, Bello.

Some of that has gone on for multiple years now (Houck/Whitlock) and it's now borderline inexplicable. Either these guys are starters or relievers. The coaching staff needs to decide and cultivate them in the best roles for them.

Successes like Winckowski (and Brasier, post-org) seem to have retooled their pitches on their own.

Others seem to be Bloom-finds that are brought in and initially do well without major changes: Schreiber, Bernardino, (old) Brasier, Strahm, Wacha, etc.

Overall, I'd say they're certainly getting talented pitchers. I just don't think they're developing/using them well. Which is not to say the Sox are abject failures in this department, and pitching is volatile anyway. But I don't think this is a strength for them, and I think a new coaching staff might do better with what we have.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

I know your whole schtick is that Cora is bad but if “prioritizing strikeouts” by the pitchers is a philosophy or strategy that the organization is employing, it seems likely to be coming from those higher than Cora, no? The idea that Cora decided to prioritize strikeouts and that it’s harming the team is an interesting theory, I guess, but seems more like stream of consciousness stuff than an actual thing.

Same goes for “not getting enough innings out of starters” as if Cora himself is mandating all the openers, or not letting guys face batters a third time through the order. It’s an organizational, and basically a league wide, philosophy at this point, no?

 

[Rovin Romine]

I know your whole schtick is that Cora is bad but if “prioritizing strikeouts” by the pitchers is a philosophy or strategy that the organization is employing, it seems likely to be coming from those higher than Cora, no? The idea that Cora decided to prioritize strikeouts and that it’s harming the team is an interesting theory, I guess, but seems more like stream of consciousness stuff than an actual thing.

Same goes for “not getting enough innings out of starters” as if Cora himself is mandating all the openers, or not letting guys face batters a third time through the order. It’s an organizational, and basically a league wide, philosophy at this point, no?

It's not a schtick.

So, let me just ask you. What do you think Cora's responsibilities are? What does he have control over?

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

The only “pitching philosophy” question that seems like a legitimate question is whether they should be stretching starting pitchers a bit more. I think the proof is in the pudding with Paxton. Even being careful with him early. he’s turning into a pumpkin since July 1. Bello, they have been fine. So, who are we talking about? Pivetta I guess?

Maybe they have left 5-10 innings on the table with Crawford? He seems to be on an 80 pitch limit, give or take. Hard to believe that is all Cora. Maybe it is. It’s also hard to know whether it is unduly cautious or prudent.

 

[simplicio]

Successes like Winckowski (and Brasier, post-org) seem to have retooled their pitches on their own.

The above about Winckowski is not true. He worked with Dan DeLucia in the offseason in Florida.
https://theathletic.com/4391469/2023/04/10/josh-winckowski-rookie-season-rebuild/

 

[8slim]

Cora always impresses me with his acumen and thoughtfulness when he's interviewed. I'm pretty agnostic about whether he's a great manager or not, but I don't think he's an idiot. Which leads me to believe that there had to be reasons why he let Barraclough get annihilated last night.

What I don't understand is how we can have EIGHT relievers on the roster and only one could pitch.

I was concerned that we were being too cute in trying to get through 6 weeks with three starters and a slew of bullpen games. I don't know if that burned out the pen, or it's just coincidental. Either way, if we're committed to this "modern game" where starters are never left in to get themselves out of jams after the 4th inning, never throw more than 100 pitches, and never see a lineup for a 3rd time, then there needs to be several relievers who are available every day. Or at least TWO.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

I was concerned that we were being too cute in trying to get through 6 weeks with three starters and a slew of bullpen games. I don't know if that burned out the pen, or it's just coincidental.

It's not a coincidence, it burnt the pen. That the Sox were doing this while knowing that three starters were coming off the IL and another (Paxton) hasn't missed a start after not pitching for two full seasons and was bound to also get tired, it's gobsmacking to me that the FO didn't feel the need to get any real reinforcements at the trade deadline; either for the bullpen or the starting staff. This is on them.

Everyone knew that the innings were mounting in June and July and that it was bound to lead to a pitching crater in August and beyond. It's literally like this every single season for just about every team since the team in Cincinnati laced up their red stockings. I'm not sure why anyone thought that the 2023 Red Sox would be immune to this.

 

[Rovin Romine]

The above about Winckowski is not true. He worked with Dan DeLucia in the offseason in Florida.
https://theathletic.com/4391469/2023/04/10/josh-winckowski-rookie-season-rebuild/

I don't have a subscription. I guess the question is, did the drive to retool come from Winckowski, or is this something that the Sox routinely do to improve their pitching staff?

 

[Rovin Romine]

What I don't understand is how we can have EIGHT relievers on the roster and only one could pitch.

This is why. https://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/cora-cora-cora.40066/page-10#post-5712363

At a guess, last night Cora's most rested relievers were: Barraclough, Jansen, Martin, Whitlock/Winckowski. And he had Llovera up throwing.

Plus (in a more break-glass category) there was whomever was doing their between-starts throwing: Crawford or Paxton.

 

[ookami7m]

What I don't understand is how we can have EIGHT relievers on the roster and only one could pitch.

No. They chose to pin this one on Barraclaugh in hopes that it makes the pen more viable today/tomorrow. Not saying it's right but they made that choice.

 

[AB in DC]

This is why. https://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/cora-cora-cora.40066/page-10#post-5712363

At a guess, last night Cora's most rested relievers were: Barraclough, Jansen, Martin, Whitlock/Winckowski. And he had Llovera up throwing.

Plus (in a more break-glass category) there was whomever was doing their between-starts throwing: Crawford or Paxton.

Pivetta hadn't pitched since Friday (2 IP, 36 pitches).

 

[8slim]

No. They chose to pin this one on Barraclaugh in hopes that it makes the pen more viable today/tomorrow. Not saying it's right but they made that choice.

Well, I'll say that it's not right. It's dumb. They had a lead in the 6th. To punt that game in the middle of a playoff chase -- against one of the key teams we're chasing -- is dumb.

 

[donutogre]

Well, I'll say that it's not right. It's dumb. They had a lead in the 6th. To punt that game in the middle of a playoff chase -- against one of the key teams we're chasing -- is dumb.

Right, that rested pen isn't going to matter if they're down 5-0 in the 3rd or something. With Bello going, chances are we'll be in the game for a while, but we also were in the game last night!

 

[simplicio]

I don't have a subscription. I guess the question is, did the drive to retool come from Winckowski, or is this something that the Sox routinely do to improve their pitching staff?

“We all collectively challenged him over the offseason and said you can just come in here and work out, or you can try to change your career in a significant way,” said Dan DeLucia, the Red Sox minor league rehab pitching coach based in Fort Myers. “He’s a competitive guy and he was very open to the challenge.”

DeLucia worked with him pretty extensively.

One thing the article notes is it's easier to make big changes in the offseason. Bush was working with him in 2022 but he needed a more significant reworking of mechanics to be successful.

The again, Brasier seemingly gained a brand new cutter the moment he walked into the Dodgers clubhouse, so who knows really?

 

[Benj4ever]

In a stretch of 16 games in 16 days. If you do go with Llovera in the 6th and he shits the bed, too, how do you even finish the game? Designated position player pitcher Pablo Reyes is on the IL, too.

This is a simple question. You let him give up 10 runs, just like you did with Bearclaw. Putting Llovera in during the 6th inning at least gives you a chance to win. It was clear that Bearclaw was not going to be competitive after he embarrassed himself against the first two batters in the 6th.

 

[simplicio]

Barraclough is stretched out as a starter, Llovera isn't. You can't make him throw 100 pitches.

 

[Rovin Romine]

“We all collectively challenged him over the offseason and said you can just come in here and work out, or you can try to change your career in a significant way,” said Dan DeLucia, the Red Sox minor league rehab pitching coach based in Fort Myers. “He’s a competitive guy and he was very open to the challenge.”

DeLucia worked with him pretty extensively.

One thing the article notes is it's easier to make big changes in the offseason. Bush was working with him in 2022 but he needed a more significant reworking of mechanics to be successful.

The again, Brasier seemingly gained a brand new cutter the moment he walked into the Dodgers clubhouse, so who knows really?

That does not really answer the question though. Is Winckowski the exception or the norm?

For example, the org dropped a couple of guys to keep Ort. Are they doing anything like that with him? Or do they just hope something will click? Ort's raw MiL numbers have gotten better since 21 - but his ML numbers are the same (trending slightly worse).

If we had something like Baseball Savant for the MiL players, we might be able to better track whether their pitches (and mixes) are being refined, etc.

 

[Benj4ever]

Barraclough is stretched out as a starter, Llovera isn't. You can't make him throw 100 pitches.

Ok, so, worst case scenario, you have to put in position players to pitch. Best case scenario, Llovera gets you to Martin and Jansen and you win. Every coin has two sides.

 

[Max Power]

Ok, so, worst case scenario, you have to put in position players to pitch. Best case scenario, Llovera gets you to Martin and Jansen and you win. Every coin has two sides.

A position player is not allowed to pitch unless the team is down 8 runs.

 

[Benj4ever]

A position player is not allowed to pitch unless the team is down 8 runs.

And if Llovera wets the bed, that's no problem.

 

[WrenHorn]

The one thing I was going to note is that you have to wonder a little bit if MLB is going to have to take a look at expanding the roster for more pitchers throughout the season. While the quick yank is theoretically an organizational philosophy, it also seems pretty evident that pitchers cannot hold up to the pitches and velocity expected of them. I don't see any way you can say, "we need starters to throw more pitches and suffer more injuries" so I think baseball is going to have to absolutely look at 15 or 16 man pitching staffs going forward.

I think MLB Pipeline's prospect rankings illustrate what is happening with pitching these days. Of their top 35 prospects, FIVE are pitchers. It's a sizable issue.

 

[moondog80]

A position player is not allowed to pitch unless the team is down 8 runs.

Really? I had no idea. I know it's usually obvious, but I assume there's some sort of process where you have to declare someone a pitcher? Does Ohtani (when healthy) not count as a pitcher when he DHs? What if he played the OF?

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

Really? I had no idea. I know it's usually obvious, but I assume there's some sort of process where you have to declare someone a pitcher? Does Ohtani (when healthy) not count as a pitcher when he DHs? What if he played the OF?

Cora said that they were going to run a position player out in the ninth, but Barraclough said he'd finish the job.

 

[Max Power]

Really? I had no idea. I know it's usually obvious, but I assume there's some sort of process where you have to declare someone a pitcher? Does Ohtani (when healthy) not count as a pitcher when he DHs? What if he played the OF?

Look at him on MLB.com. He's listed as a two way player, the only guy in the league with the designation.



He can pitch any time in the game and does not count against the 13 man pitching staff limit. Speaking of...

The one thing I was going to note is that you have to wonder a little bit if MLB is going to have to take a look at expanding the roster for more pitchers throughout the season. While the quick yank is theoretically an organizational philosophy, it also seems pretty evident that pitchers cannot hold up to the pitches and velocity expected of them. I don't see any way you can say, "we need starters to throw more pitches and suffer more injuries" so I think baseball is going to have to absolutely look at 15 or 16 man pitching staffs going forward.

Teams should no longer expect pitchers to throw with that kind of effort on every pitch. There's no way to do it safely no matter how much you limit innings pitched. And with all the strikeouts, balls in play are at an all time low. The only way to get teams to quit the max velo and spin rate arms race is to do the exact opposite of your suggestion. They need to limit the number of pitchers a team can carry further over the course of a few years. Let every team know starters are going to have to pitch longer, so train them to do so without tearing their arms apart. That means pitching smarter and accepting the fact that hits and runs are going to go up for everyone.

 

[simplicio]

And if Llovera wets the bed, that's no problem.

But if he's merely regular bad and not catastrophically bad, where are the other pitches coming from? Are you making him throw 60 and destroying him? Asking the other guys that are already wiped out from the last 3 games for an inning? Burning Martin or Kenley in a losing game? Your idea doesn't work.

 

[8slim]

The one thing I was going to note is that you have to wonder a little bit if MLB is going to have to take a look at expanding the roster for more pitchers throughout the season. While the quick yank is theoretically an organizational philosophy, it also seems pretty evident that pitchers cannot hold up to the pitches and velocity expected of them. I don't see any way you can say, "we need starters to throw more pitches and suffer more injuries" so I think baseball is going to have to absolutely look at 15 or 16 man pitching staffs going forward.

I think MLB Pipeline's prospect rankings illustrate what is happening with pitching these days. Of their top 35 prospects, FIVE are pitchers. It's a sizable issue.

I agree.

However, and this isn’t challenging you, just using your post to jump off… is there evidence that starters being on strict pitch count and lineup limits has reduced injuries?

I grew up in an era where dozens of guys would throw 200+ innings each season. Some got hurt.

And now, with a slew of limitations of pitchers… some get hurt. Hell, anecdotally it feels like *more* get hurt, but that may be my Red Sox selection bias at play.

More and more I feel that the way MLB handles pitching is broken. Maybe I’m wrong.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Really? I had no idea. I know it's usually obvious, but I assume there's some sort of process where you have to declare someone a pitcher? Does Ohtani (when healthy) not count as a pitcher when he DHs? What if he played the OF?

Look at him on MLB.com. He's listed as a two way player, the only guy in the league with the designation.

View attachment 70030

He can pitch any time in the game and does not count against the 13 man pitching staff limit. Speaking of...



Teams should no longer expect pitchers to throw with that kind of effort on every pitch. There's no way to do it safely no matter how much you limit innings pitched. And with all the strikeouts, balls in play are at an all time low. The only way to get teams to quit the max velo and spin rate arms race is to do the exact opposite of your suggestion. They need to limit the number of pitchers a team can carry further over the course of a few years. Let every team know starters are going to have to pitch longer, so train them to do so without tearing their arms apart. That means pitching smarter and accepting the fact that hits and runs are going to go up for everyone.

Yeah, before the game, everyone on the roster needs to be identified as a pitcher, position player, or a Shohei Ohtani (aka TWP).

 

[simplicio]

I agree.

However, and this isn’t challenging you, just using your post to jump off… is there evidence that starters being on strict pitch count and lineup limits has reduced injuries?

I grew up in an era where dozens of guys would throw 200+ innings each season. Some got hurt.

And now, with a slew of limitations of pitchers… some get hurt. Hell, anecdotally it feels like *more* get hurt, but that may be my Red Sox selection bias at play.

More and more I feel that the way MLB handles pitching is broken. Maybe I’m wrong.

What’s happened to average pitch velocity in that same time frame?

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I agree.

However, and this isn’t challenging you, just using your post to jump off… is there evidence that starters being on strict pitch count and lineup limits has reduced injuries?

I grew up in an era where dozens of guys would throw 200+ innings each season. Some got hurt.

And now, with a slew of limitations of pitchers… some get hurt. Hell, anecdotally it feels like *more* get hurt, but that may be my Red Sox selection bias at play.

More and more I feel that the way MLB handles pitching is broken. Maybe I’m wrong.

I think a lot more pitchers got hurt when there were dozens of guys throwing 200+ per year. Or if they didn't suffer significant injuries, their careers were a hell of a lot shorter because they burned out.

Just taking a sampling from 1962, top 10 in innings pitched:

Don Drysdale (314.1 innings), done at age 32
Ralph Terry (298.1), done at age 30
Bob Purkey (288.1), done at age 36
Billy O'Dell (280.2), done at age 34
Art Mahaffey (274), done at age 28
Joey Jay (273), done at age 30
Warren Spahn (269.1), done at age 44
Jim Kaat (269), done at age 44
Jack Sanford (265.1), done at age 38 (didn't make majors until age 27)
Juan Marichal (262.2), done at age 37

Unsurprisingly the guys who lasted the longest were either late bloomers or Hall of Famers. The average pitchers...the Pivettas and Crawfords of the day...were used up and tossed away with regularity. Teams now are way more invested in players than they used to be. Just to illustrate this, Don Drysdale finished his career at a salary of $115,000 in 1969, and that was top of the top dollar at the time. In today's money, that's less than a million dollars (about 958,000). The Sox are paying Garrett Whitlock more than that this year. We're never going to see a return to pitchers going 200+ innings a year or 150 pitches a start ever again.

 

[8slim]

What’s happened to average pitch velocity in that same time frame?

We know it has increased. Although I've read that the rate in which it has increased might not be as much as people believe. Has something to do with radar guns showing lower speeds in the past due to where the ball was measured vs. today.

 

[Max Power]

I think a lot more pitchers got hurt when there were dozens of guys throwing 200+ per year. Or if they didn't suffer significant injuries, their careers were a hell of a lot shorter because they burned out.

Just taking a sampling from 1962, top 10 in innings pitched:

Don Drysdale (314.1 innings), done at age 32
Ralph Terry (298.1), done at age 30
Bob Purkey (288.1), done at age 36
Billy O'Dell (280.2), done at age 34
Art Mahaffey (274), done at age 28
Joey Jay (273), done at age 30
Warren Spahn (269.1), done at age 44
Jim Kaat (269), done at age 44
Jack Sanford (265.1), done at age 38 (didn't make majors until age 27)
Juan Marichal (262.2), done at age 37

Unsurprisingly the guys who lasted the longest were either late bloomers or Hall of Famers. The average pitchers...the Pivettas and Crawfords of the day...were used up and tossed away with regularity. Teams now are way more invested in players than they used to be. Just to illustrate this, Don Drysdale finished his career at a salary of $115,000 in 1969, and that was top of the top dollar at the time. In today's money, that's less than a million dollars (about 958,000). The Sox are paying Garrett Whitlock more than that this year. We're never going to see a return to pitchers going 200+ innings a year or 150 pitches a start ever again.

So two of the guys pitched into their 40s and most into their mid 30s in a world with no Tommy John surgery? That seems really good. What would a pitching staff today look like if doctors couldn't stitch broken pitchers back together? Even with medical advancements, they're not staying in the league much longer than the guys who threw 250+ innings per year. Look at this list of IP leaders from 2012.



So you have a Hall of Famer, a knuckleballer, done at 33, done at 36, another Hall of Famer, and done at 39, 32, 36, 35, and 35.

 

[8slim]

I think a lot more pitchers got hurt when there were dozens of guys throwing 200+ per year. Or if they didn't suffer significant injuries, their careers were a hell of a lot shorter because they burned out.

Just taking a sampling from 1962, top 10 in innings pitched:

Don Drysdale (314.1 innings), done at age 32
Ralph Terry (298.1), done at age 30
Bob Purkey (288.1), done at age 36
Billy O'Dell (280.2), done at age 34
Art Mahaffey (274), done at age 28
Joey Jay (273), done at age 30
Warren Spahn (269.1), done at age 44
Jim Kaat (269), done at age 44
Jack Sanford (265.1), done at age 38 (didn't make majors until age 27)
Juan Marichal (262.2), done at age 37

Unsurprisingly the guys who lasted the longest were either late bloomers or Hall of Famers. The average pitchers...the Pivettas and Crawfords of the day...were used up and tossed away with regularity. Teams now are way more invested in players than they used to be. Just to illustrate this, Don Drysdale finished his career at a salary of $115,000 in 1969, and that was top of the top dollar at the time. In today's money, that's less than a million dollars (about 958,000). The Sox are paying Garrett Whitlock more than that this year. We're never going to see a return to pitchers going 200+ innings a year or 150 pitches a start ever again.

I appreciate the numbers! I will say that I'm baffled there hasn't been an exhaustive study of this dynamic.

I'm not suggesting we have pitchers throw 250+ innings anymore. I watched Oil Can Boyd's 1985 season, I know what ridiculous overuse can do to an arm.

But I'm not convinced that pitchers can't throw 7 innings/start or 200-220 innings anymore. I mean that was occuring a ton more just 15 years ago, and it's not like the relative investment in pitchers was massively less in 2008.

Eight guys threw 200+ innings last year. In 2008 it was 33! Are there really far fewer injuries today? Where is the glut of 35 years old starters who's arm has been "saved" by the reduced workload the past 15 years?

 

[The Talented Allen Ripley]

How much of it is a function of protecting pitchers' arms, or is it due more to statistical evidence that most SP's ability/effectiveness drops significantly after 100 pitches or facing batters more than twice a game? Probably some of the former and some of the latter, but to what degree?

 

[simplicio]

I was looking at the trend of starters getting pulled earlier and noticed a big drop-off in starter IP in the 2016 season. I don't think it's a coincidence that 2016 was also the first full season of dugout iPad usage. Hands on access to hitting/pitching data probably changed a lot.

 

[Humphrey]

19 actually: 11 hits, 5 BBs, 3 HBPs.

Couldn't even

Care to offer examples? If I'm reading you correctly, you are stating that Cora called down to the pen and guys literally refused to go into the game. I know we're all frustrated by recent developments; but that's a very serious charge. I would think and hope that any player in any sport who refuses to go play when asked would be released on the spot (assuming no injury). To just throw out accusations like that is not right.

No, just trying to figure out who's making the determination that x, y or z is a one inning pitcher, an every-other-game pitcher, etc.

He threw 1 2/3 innings on Saturday and really labored to get that final 2/3. I wouldn't be surprised if he was still feeling it yesterday and wasn't available.

trs is right, this is a problem with the starters not going deep enough and all the games without an off day. Asking the same 8 bullpen guys to cover 5 innings every night is going to burn them out. Even if Winck were available to put out the fire in the 6th, you'd need 3 innings from Martin and Llovera if Jansen is still not ready to go. And Martin hasn't gone a second inning in any game all year.

You'd think pitching to one batter, which happened a few games ago, would at least be a game where a second inning would be feasible.

 

[Tony Pena's Gas Cloud]

In retrospect my issue with Cora isn't so much last night's usage as the lack of transparency afterwards. He had to know that all of Red Sox Nation was watching the press conference. If he had come out and simply said "We have some guys on this team who we not only want to have healthy this year, but next year and beyond. Our medical staff says that they're being pushed to their limit. It would be irresponsible to risk injury for this year and next year in exchange for tonight's game", then (rational) fans would be a whole lot more understanding. Instead he gruffly gave short answers and "We're done?". That's NOT the way to handle yourself as a manager.

 

[joe dokes]

In retrospect my issue with Cora isn't so much last night's usage as the lack of transparency afterwards. He had to know that all of Red Sox Nation was watching the press conference. If he had come out and simply said "We have some guys on this team who we not only want to have healthy this year, but next year and beyond. Our medical staff says that they're being pushed to their limit. It would be irresponsible to risk injury for this year and next year in exchange for tonight's game", then (rational) fans would be a whole lot more understanding. Instead he gruffly gave short answers and "We're done?". That's NOT the way to handle yourself as a manager.

Sure, but "rational people" (as you showed right here), already know that's what's going on. I don't think he does anyone any favors by mentioning "next year" just yet.

 

[Harry Hooper]

You'd think pitching to one batter, which happened a few games ago, would at least be a game where a second inning would be feasible.

I believe Cora addressed this with something like Martin came in and got us out of a bases-loaded situation to end the inning, so he wasn't going to ask him to go back out there for another inning after that.

 

[bloodysox]

Cora pulling Bello after 82 pitches when the pen is supposedly gassed is quite the decision. Especially when the main reason the inning was going poorly was due to fielding miscues. Maybe the pen would be less taxed if starters didn't get yanked early like that.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Cora pulling Bello after 82 pitches when the pen is supposedly gassed is quite the decision. Especially when the main reason the inning was going poorly was due to fielding miscues. Maybe the pen would be less taxed if starters didn't get yanked early like that.

Eh, they have a lefty today, and every reliever should be available, no?

 

[simplicio]

Cora pulling Bello after 82 pitches when the pen is supposedly gassed is quite the decision. Especially when the main reason the inning was going poorly was due to fielding miscues. Maybe the pen would be less taxed if starters didn't get yanked early like that.

Did you see what Alvarez did to Bello the first couple times?

 

[jteders1]

Did you see what Alvarez did to Bello the first couple times?

Agreed, Bello wasn’t fooling Alvarez at all. If it had been anyone else in the lineup I think he get’s to stay in, but after last night disaster this is a must win game, can’t mess around at that point.

 

[Benj4ever]

Agreed, Bello wasn’t fooling Alvarez at all. If it had been anyone else in the lineup I think he get’s to stay in, but after last night disaster this is a must win game, can’t mess around at that point.

Last night was a must win, too.

 

[scottyno]

Cora pulling Bello after 82 pitches when the pen is supposedly gassed is quite the decision. Especially when the main reason the inning was going poorly was due to fielding miscues. Maybe the pen would be less taxed if starters didn't get yanked early like that.

Why is the pen gassed today? Llovera is the only reliever on the active roster who pitched either of the last 2 days.

 

[Rovin Romine]

Did you see what Alvarez did to Bello the first couple times?

Remind us how Cora's choice worked out?

 

[Humphrey]

Batting Hamilton in the 9th says to me Cora's thrown in the towel. Even though he walked, there were better options on the bench.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Remind us how Cora's choice worked out?

Jacques got Alvarez, right? Kept it 2 runs. Or am I forgetting?

 

[Rovin Romine]

Jacques got Alvarez, right? Kept it 2 runs. Or am I forgetting?

It's the 4 pitchers he used to finish the game. The game we lost. Which we had to win because Cora punted on a game we had a one run lead on yesterday. Because we had no pitching available.

But yes, Jacques got Alverez. Very good Cora. Very very good.

Onward to tomorrow!

 

[Tony Pena's Gas Cloud]

So.......on two must-win nights, even with a "Tired bullpen", Cora pulls his starters with 92 and 82 pitches. Meanwhile in a similar must-win, Cobb is allowed to throw a career high 131 pitches.