Cora, Cora, Cora!

[streeter88]

Complaining about Cora now is a bit late. His multi season adventures with defense, base running and pitching misses - as well as his days off policies - as usual have left the Red Sox a significant gap to make up in the last 30 games.

The mere fact they’re in the mix at all is not due to Cora but rather to SP being a lot better than it was predicted to be (I picked Sale, Paxton and Kluber to all be injured or ineffective; was only right on Kluber).

Suggest there is a better field management team out there in the world than Cora and the stiff at 3B coach. Maybe keep the pitching coach….

Edited

 

[Philip Jeff Frye]

Complaining about Cora now is a bit late. His multi season adventures with defense, base running and pitching misses - as well as his days off policies - as usual have left the Red Sox a significant gap to make up in the last 30 games.

The mere fact they’re in the mix at all is not due to Cora but rather to SP being a lot better than it was predicted to be (I picked Sale, Paxton and Kluber to all be injured or ineffective; was only right on Kluber).

Suggest there is a better field management team out there in the world than Cora and the stiff at 3B coach. Maybe keep the pitching coach….

Edited

I think you can give yourself at least partial credit on Sale. He's only given us 73 innings so far of 97 ERA+, which is by far the worst number of his career to date.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Complaining about Cora now is a bit late. His multi season adventures with defense, base running and pitching misses - as well as his days off policies - as usual have left the Red Sox a significant gap to make up in the last 30 games.

The mere fact they’re in the mix at all is not due to Cora but rather to SP being a lot better than it was predicted to be (I picked Sale, Paxton and Kluber to all be injured or ineffective; was only right on Kluber).

Suggest there is a better field management team out there in the world than Cora and the stiff at 3B coach. Maybe keep the pitching coach….

Edited

Edit: apologies misread your post. That said, how many games do you have Cora costing the Sox per year versus a league average manager?

 

[scottyno]

Complaining about Cora now is a bit late. His multi season adventures with defense, base running and pitching misses - as well as his days off policies - as usual have left the Red Sox a significant gap to make up in the last 30 games.

The mere fact they’re in the mix at all is not due to Cora but rather to SP being a lot better than it was predicted to be (I picked Sale, Paxton and Kluber to all be injured or ineffective; was only right on Kluber).

Suggest there is a better field management team out there in the world than Cora and the stiff at 3B coach. Maybe keep the pitching coach….

Edited

Cora doesn't get any credit for the pitching being good?

 

[simplicio]

Cora doesn't get any credit for the pitching being good?

Rookie question. The manager is only ever the problem.

 

[Benj4ever]

Rookie question. The manager is only ever the problem.

Bad managing is a problem. But so is bad baserunning, bad defense, and bad everything else. The defense has been a real let down this year. Especially Devers, who looked so much better in the field last year and the middle infield, where Kiki was such a bust this year.

 

[simplicio]

Bad managing is a problem. But so is bad baserunning, bad defense, and bad everything else. The defense has been a real let down this year. Especially Devers, who looked so much better in the field last year and the middle infield, where Kiki was such a bust this year.

Exactly, and Devers and Kiké being terrible fielders are definitely Cora's fault, while Verdugo's and Duran's defensive improvements are obviously a result of their own hard work.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Exactly, and Devers and Kiké being terrible fielders are definitely Cora's fault, while Verdugo's and Duran's defensive improvements are obviously a result of their own hard work.

Correlation doesn't equal causation. Except when it does.

 

[twibnotes]

Exactly, and Devers and Kiké being terrible fielders are definitely Cora's fault, while Verdugo's and Duran's defensive improvements are obviously a result of their own hard work.

I laughed way too hard at this. [Chef’s kiss]

 

[Tony Pena's Gas Cloud]

All the complaining about Murphy completely misses the point. The lineup was shut down for six innings by a guy with a 12.00 ERA in five big league appearances. Devers or not, the batters should have pounded the snot out of him. If the offense does its job, Murphy only pitches a couple of innings then hands the baton off - he's not still out there in the 8th.

Both offenses had an opportunity against the ass end of the pitching staff. The Dodgers took advantage, the Sox didn't. Murphy's usage is irrelevant.

 

[Heating up in the bullpen]

Admittedly I haven’t been able to follow this series closely the past few days. So can someone explain to me why on Earth Devers and Yoshida didn’t start today, and why Murphy has been left in to give up six freakin’ runs.

It’s like we’ve forfeited.

I think Cora did the right thing today with the pitching. In a game they were trailing and the offense (once again) looked moribund against some low-leverage pitching, it was better to burn Murphy and save bullets for the Astros. More important to take 2 of 3 from the Astros (for tie-breaker purposes) than from the Dodgers.

 

[streeter88]

In order to do the question justice, one would have to go through every game and decide whether there was something the manager (and his staff) could control that got the Sox the win, or conversely the loss.

Or, we could just rely on Fangraphs or Baseball Reference. And these Red Sox are a pretty mixed bag, though they are likely to finish at least 8 wins above what I predicted (78).

If we can agree that Cora is responsible for all of his staff and their performance, then he is surely responsible for the extremes of defense and base running.

Fangraphs has Sox defense in 27th at -24 DRS. As for team base running (BsR), Fangraphs has the Sox 22nd at -5.7 runs — far behind Tor and Bal, both at +8 or +9 — but ahead of MFY at -12 (28th in MLB). With the net runs scored at only +42, would those 30 additional runs come in handy? Yup.

I thought the Sox SP should get some credit, but despite being 6th in MLB in run support, they are 26th in both avg innings pitched / start at 4.7 and quality starts at 28%.

I have to be fair though, and give Cora credit for relief pitching. The blown saves and mismanaged relief opportunities seem to stand out like dogs bollocks, but Baseball Reference has the Sox first in MLB with 76% success rate in converting saves.

Sox are at +1 vs their pythag, so not underperforming really, but it really is a seriously mixed bag.

I look at this — and remember the base running and defense were just as bad last year. We have been treated to some exciting young players this year in Casas, Bello, Duran and Wilyer Abreu - even Yoshida though he is far from your average rookie due to coming from NPB. And I have to grudgingly concede that Chaim’s faith in Sale, Paxton and Kutter, and his winning bets on Jansen, Turner, Duvall, and of late Story and Urias have far outweighed Kluber and Kike.

And that is why I think there must be a better group of coaches out there.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Edit: apologies misread your post. That said, how many games do you have Cora costing the Sox per year versus a league average manager?

I'd say it's close to impossible to quantify. By whatever metric you want to use/invent, my guess is that however many games he cost the team a win, he probably also won about that many games with a similar move/decision. It's those moves/decisions that win games that are generally invisible to most observers because either they were "obvious" or they were non-moves (letting a pitcher throw to one more batter or leaving a hitter in rather than pinch hit, etc). It's typically only the things that go wrong or don't pan out well that stand out in our minds. Our eyes just pass right over everything else.

 

[HangingW/ScottCooper]

Complaining about Cora now is a bit late. His multi season adventures with defense, base running and pitching misses - as well as his days off policies - as usual have left the Red Sox a significant gap to make up in the last 30 games.

The mere fact they’re in the mix at all is not due to Cora but rather to SP being a lot better than it was predicted to be (I picked Sale, Paxton and Kluber to all be injured or ineffective; was only right on Kluber).

Suggest there is a better field management team out there in the world than Cora and the stiff at 3B coach. Maybe keep the pitching coach….

Edited

He's working with the roster provided. At what point do you blame Bloom?

 

[streeter88]

He's working with the roster provided. At what point do you blame Bloom?

I’ve been blaming Bloom the whole time. But check my most recent post (#412) and I think you’ll see that I’m pretty evenhanded on both of them whereas I had been vocal about wanting both axed since mid 2022.

My core question is with the team Cora and co. were given this year, could someone else have done better?

 

[HangingW/ScottCooper]

And that is why I think there must be a better group of coaches out there.

I’ve been blaming Bloom the whole time. But check my most recent post (#412) and I think you’ll see that I’m pretty evenhanded on both of them whereas I had been vocal about wanting both axed since mid 2022.

My core question is with the team Cora and co. were given this year, could someone else have done better?

I think we're pretty much on the same page. I know "small sample size" rules apply here, but one thing I've felt under Cora is that other than maybe Fatse there aren't many stories of coaches making a tweak to a player that results in a meaningful change. I feel I hear those stories all the time coming out of Houston, Tampa and LA (most recently Brasier and Kike). It's quite likely I'm putting too much stock into that sort of thing but it has absolutely been on my mind.

It does seem that recently there has been quite a bit of Febles hate, including people on Twitter trying to blame him for Wong's base running. At some point, the players have to own some of that responsibility as well. In Wong's case, I suspect most people on here understand that it was his mistake and not any coach's mistake. It was ugly but it's over and done with. I think we can also all probably agree that Wong is a guy that the collective SoSH community under valued. Personally, he has exceeded my expectations this year and I'll give Bloom (and Wong) 100% credit for making the right call on parting ways with Vazquez.

But back to the coaches themselves, let's say Febles was the best infield defense coach in the world. Is that coach going to turn Devers into Matt Chapman or Nolan Arenado? Probably not. At some point, the way to improve infield defense is to improve the players themselves. It absolutely seems to me that Chaim doesn't put a premium on defense. It's why I've been a big proponent of making Ha-Seong Kim a primary trade target this offseason. If not Kim, there are plenty of other 2B targets out there that may be available (McNeil or Gimenez come to mind as well).

I have not been a fan of Bloom and would classify him as decidedly average as a baseball ops guy. He has absolutely made some smaller moves that have benefited team, but those are the types of acquisitions that every GM in baseball should be capable of making. He has not done well on his big moves or non-moves perhaps with the exception of Xander. This offseason should be the time for him to start putting some of his chips in the middle. Mistakes on that front should absolutely dictate his long term future with the organization.

 

[Benj4ever]

Exactly, and Devers and Kiké being terrible fielders are definitely Cora's fault, while Verdugo's and Duran's defensive improvements are obviously a result of their own hard work.

Cora's bad managing is his fault. The rest is on the players. It's really not that complicated.

 

[LogansDad]

Fire him.

Don't even let him address the team after the game.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

If Whitlock and Winckowski are available, it’s hard to understand why one of them didn’t start the 6th.

But, nobody warming up. Was it predetermined that this rando had to get us through the 6th?

Cora sending a message?

 

[jwbasham84]

I'm not really a guy that comments on managers but this was a total travesty... how can you leave Barraclough in when it's clear he doesn't have any idea where a pitch is going... we didn't use any good relievers list night and I know Sale needed to go deeper.... but we were still in striking distance until he throws batting practice to Alvarez....

 

[deythur]

I don't know enough to start a new thread about it but who's next? I can't imagine if its Tek. At least I hope not. Any idea who Bloom might be looking at? I do think Cora is done after the season.

 

[StuckOnYouk]

Why not Tek? Although I think Bloom likes the Tampa guys who do an hour of infield and outfield defense pregame. Like they are high schoolers….which kind of fits with our team.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

Does Kyle Snyder's name ever surface as a Manager candidate anywhere?

 

[Mr. Wednesday]

If Whitlock and Winckowski are available, it’s hard to understand why one of them didn’t start the 6th.

O'Brien seemed to think that neither is available tonight because each went 1 2/3 on Saturday. I'd think Whitlock is for sure not available as he threw 40 pitches.

I don't see too many high-leverage arms who are actually available tonight.

 

[CarolinaBeerGuy]

Cora needs to explain himself. Unless there’s something behind the scenes we don’t know, he should be fired tonight.

 

[mikeford]

Putting Kyle Bearclaw in the game tonight is indefensible.

They need to completely clean house on the staff and upper management.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

O'Brien seemed to think that neither is available tonight because each went 1 2/3 on Saturday. I'd think Whitlock is for sure not available as he threw 40 pitches.

I don't see too many high-leverage arms who are actually available tonight.

Ah, you are probably right. And Schreiber threw 22 on Friday, 24 on Saturday. And Pivetta surely not available.

So, you’re down to Martin, Jansen, Llovera.

Suddenly, it makes sense.

 

[deythur]

Why not Tek? Although I think Bloom likes the Tampa guys who do an hour of infield and outfield defense pregame. Like they are high schoolers….which kind of fits with our team.

I think he skated by as the team captain with the whole "chicken and beer" thing. Never stepped up and never held anyone accountable. I also think its time for a fresh start altogether. The band isn't getting back together at this point.

I don't know who would be a good option but me not wanting Tek is purely personal.

 

[Benj4ever]

Ah, you are probably right. And Schreiber threw 22 on Friday, 24 on Saturday. And Pivetta surely not available.

So, you’re down to Martin, Jansen, Llovera.

Suddenly, it makes sense.

If you're down to those three, you throw in Llovera. At least there's a chance he doesn't let the Astros put up that 6 spot.

 

[RedOctober3829]

https://x.com/tomcaron/status/1696338449052086342?s=46&t=IVL2VrlFgLlpc3mjGGto8Q

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I think he skated by as the team captain with the whole "chicken and beer" thing. Never stepped up and never held anyone accountable. I also think its time for a fresh start altogether. The band isn't getting back together at this point.

I don't know who would be a good option but me not wanting Tek is purely personal.

Hiring Tek strikes me as similar to the Yankees hiring Boone: a familiar name hired due to a couple of big hits and not due to any actual managerial prowess.

So I’m with you here.

 

[RedOctober3829]

1 starter going 5 or more innings in the last 9. This is what you get.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

https://x.com/tomcaron/status/1696338449052086342?s=46&t=IVL2VrlFgLlpc3mjGGto8Q

20 pitches over four days isn’t a lot for Winckowski, though. And a combined 4 for Jansen and Martin.Ugh. (Even Pivetta seems potentially available, right? I dunno.)

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

https://x.com/peteabe/status/1696334282409517091?s=46&t=0BmQ-9TYN7pIIfzDCoYxZA

 

[soxhop411]

There is still nobody warming up. Just fire everybody.

That probably lends credence to the idea the entire BP is sick or unavailable.
you really think that Cora Would do something like this (something has never done as a manager with the Sox just to spite Bloom?

And IIRC the new covid rules disallow teams removing a player from the 40 man like in previous seasons.
So. Outside of getting an exemption from the commissioner, any player on the Covid IL still takes up a 40 man spot

Add into the fact that nobody is even warming. And i am 99.999% sure this is something other than Cora throwing a game. Because if Cora really wanted to throw a game there are less obvious ways than what is happening tonight

 

[soxin6]

Does Cora want to stay as the manager of the Red Sox?I know that tonight is only one game, but punting a game you are winning going into the 6th is not ideal management. The is August, not April and he just left the pitcher out there to be embarrassed.

 

[jwbasham84]

Even if you want to start with bearclaw... fine but to leave him in for a 6 spot is indefensible... yank him and bring in Llovera.... and Winckowski did throw some pitches Saturday but he should still be available today... he was off the two days before.... you can't keep him and Whitlock both on the same days off or inning pitched or we will always be short high leverage middle inning guys....

 

[8slim]

Modern baseball usage makes me nuts. Teams carry more arms than ever, and everyone is too delicate to actually pitch.

 

[RedOctober3829]

I’ve never wanted to see a managers press conference more than I do tonight

 

[Max Power]

1 starter going 5 or more innings in the last 9. This is what you get.

In a stretch of 16 games in 16 days. If you do go with Llovera in the 6th and he shits the bed, too, how do you even finish the game? Designated position player pitcher Pablo Reyes is on the IL, too.

 

[RedOctober3829]

This is the definition of wearing it

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I’ve never wanted to see a managers press conference more than I do tonight

I honestly think he punted the game once Bear claw gave up the first two runs.

Bear Claw is back out there for the 8th. I’ve never seen anything like this.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Based only on pitches thrown in the past few days (and ignoring any possible injuries or illnesses we are unaware of), Winckowski, Martin, and Jansen clearly should have been available, and I think Pivetta may have been. And Llovera, obviously.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

I honestly think he punted the game once Bear claw gave up the first two runs.

Bear Claw is back out there for the 8th. I’ve never seen anything like this.

I honestly don't think I have either. A terrible pitcher turning a great game into garbage time, at which point he's qualified to keep pitching.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

15 baserunners in 2 2/3.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Suddenly, Dinelson Lamet doesn’t look so bad.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I honestly don't think I have either. A terrible pitcher turning a great game into garbage time, at which point he's qualified to keep pitching.

Bear Claw is up to 10 ER allowed tonight. I get that the game is over but this is getting downright unprofessional. Get the guy out of there.

 

[jwbasham84]

Maybe the plan is to wear out the astro hitters from overuse in the first game..... they could exhaust themselves hitting all night against "the claw"....

 

[RedOctober3829]

These last two games are such an indictment on Bloom’s roster building.

 

[8slim]

Gonna be hard to make the playoffs if we keep punting games.