You're upset that he used the good pitchers today that people wanted him to use yesterday and that they weren't good? If he keeps Bello in and he gets out of it then those same guys are still going to pitch today.
Cora, Cora, Cora!
- Thread starter dhappy42
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None of these nitpicks or second guesses matter much. They're getting outclassed, and none of their starters are able to traverse these two great lineups more than twice. The pen gets worn down because those teams make them work so hard and run the pitch count up like the Sox do when they're rolling.
In other words, the Astros and Dodgers are really, really good and these results aren't all that surprising. It's frustrating, but this team just doesn't have the horses yet.
In other words, the Astros and Dodgers are really, really good and these results aren't all that surprising. It's frustrating, but this team just doesn't have the horses yet.
I'd push back on Bello a little bit. He wasn't spectacular or anything, but he was solid. If Devers and / or Hamilton don't butcher us in the 5th, he's probably through 5 at 75 pitches, 2 runs and starting the 6th with a good chance to get through that. As has been the case all year, the defense really put us behind the 8-ball.
Obviously the starting pitchers collapsing the last 3 weeks is the main reason here. Any staff needs at least 3/5 through for a starter to go 6 innings. With long relief guys like Whitlock, Pivetta, and Murphy….. the Sale, Houck, Bello, Paxton and Crawford need to get deeper into games. It’s obviously a failure and out of them for ‘24 I’d only put Bello and Pivetta as the two currently under contract to do that consistently, if not obviously not always. Houck and Sale are the other two that have starter quality stuff with Crawford behind them but none of those three should be inked in as starters next season. The Whitlock experiment should be done.
They NEED Yamamoto, hopefully a trade to get someone like ERod and between all those, that hypothetically should be enough. There’s shockingly a glut of FA pitchers available but likely all will come with QO’s attached. Bloom should be all -in next year and cap space is very available. He’s rebuilt the farm and ‘24 is 100% make-the-fucking- playoffs or goodbye.
They NEED Yamamoto, hopefully a trade to get someone like ERod and between all those, that hypothetically should be enough. There’s shockingly a glut of FA pitchers available but likely all will come with QO’s attached. Bloom should be all -in next year and cap space is very available. He’s rebuilt the farm and ‘24 is 100% make-the-fucking- playoffs or goodbye.
Well, Cobb did have a no hitter with two outs in the 9th, so there is that (the right fielder didn't take the best path to the ball on the sole hit. Not sure if he makes the catch if he does). Not defending Cora, mind you.
Plenty of guys have been removed from a no hitter with fewer pitches.
So you’re saying that Cora should jeopardize the Sox chances next year and Bello’s career by letting him throw 131 pitches…. While the Sox are standing outside WC3?
Sound like a great plan.
He doesn't have to throw 50 more.... maybe like.... 20 more? Get to 100 pitches?
Did you guys even watch the game? Alvarez was killing Bello with Tucker on deck, he was removed and Jacques got Alvarez out. Cora made the move to get them out of the inning. It worked. Add that the Sox were about to turn over lineup in bottom of fifth.
Bello wasn’t getting easy outs. Was already at 82 pitches. For crying out loud. It’s a totally defensible choice. Leaving him in to get shelled would have been worse.
Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of bad takes on here, but comparing a guy actively throwing a no-hitter to a guy that has been smoked by Yordan Alvarez facing him an additional time is a bad take.
You're not putting the move in proper context. Bello was at 82 pitches. He is your ace or #2 starter. The manager has stated that guys in the bullpen are fatigued and one night before he left a guy in to allow ten runs because no one else was available. Bello had not allowed an earned run since the first inning. They were down by two runs. Whether Alvarez is up or not, wouldn't those circumstances justify leaving the starting pitcher in?
Nowhere did I "compare" the two. In fact, it's a contrast. Two teams were in must-win games. One was managed to win regardless of future implications. One was not. Whether one, both, or neither was correct depends on your philosophy.
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You also had a base open if the fear of Alvarez was so great, pitch around him or put him on w/o even throwing a pitch.
Also, yesterday, another example of him throwing in the towel, imho; unless Urias "owns" Pressly, why is he batting in the 9th with 3 lefty hitters on the bench? Day before it was Hamilton, who did draw a walk, miraculously.
You’re actively trying to shit on Cora for a move that was totally defensible AND worked out.
The manager and his staff have volumes of data to review that covers all options, potential outcomes and still need to set some schedule for that hopefully gets a staff/team through a series or week.
If you think leaving Bello in at 82 pitches, without his best stuff to face Alvarez, a white hot world class hitter and potentially Tucker with a moderately rest bullpen is the move. I don’t think you know what you’re watching or talking about.
THE MOVE WORKED.
Nice of you to defend the move in retrospect. If Jacques allowed a three run homer would you be singing the same tune?
Listen, Chuckles, I've been watching games for 40 years. Part of the appeal of baseball is DISCUSSING managerial moves and whether you think said moves were correct, not trying to create a pissing contest. If you have "volumes of data" about how Cora made the correct move, then share it. "It worked out" doesn't make your opinion correct, nor does it make mine wrong. Claiming that others "don't know what they're talking about" without presenting hard numbers reeks of arrogance. It's a difference of opinion, and the board is solidly divided. So pump the fucking brakes.
You’re actively banging on Cora for a move that worked. No what ifs about it.
I’m all for second guessing. Also believe there is a valid argument for a managerial change.
I just don’t see how leaving Bello in at that moment increases the chance of winning. It turned out to be the right move, was defensible and you’re the one who referenced pulling his starter in a must win game as a negative.
Pulling starter without their good stuff, facing adversity is what a good manager does. Not sure how you can argue it. Bello isn’t prime time Pedro. That wasn’t Grady.
I’m all for second guessing. Also believe there is a valid argument for a managerial change.
I just don’t see how leaving Bello in at that moment increases the chance of winning. It turned out to be the right move, was defensible and you’re the one who referenced pulling his starter in a must win game as a negative.
Pulling starter without their good stuff, facing adversity is what a good manager does. Not sure how you can argue it. Bello isn’t prime time Pedro. That wasn’t Grady.
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I have thought many times this year that Cora pulled his starter too early. This game I thought he pulled Bello at the right time.
There has been frustration expressed but I don’t think Henry creates a dynamic where the lame duck GM picks the new manager. Need to do a quick contract check…
If Cora wants out, maybe gets a GM opportunity of his own, or ownership is already bought in on Bloom and he wants someone else, then sure.
I guess the third option is the team goes down the tube and they both go, but that’s pretty dark.
I want Cora gone. Bloom never hired him and if I was Bloom wanting to retaliate with some of these FO bullshit leaks, I’d be dumping on not being allowed to dump him after Cora’s shitshow of a managing job in 2019 then being stuck with him afterwards
What would be the rationale for firing Cora? No one who has followed this season even semi-close can say that this team had the horses to win consistently (which is on Bloom/ownership, not Cora, obviously).
Cora has been to the postseason two times and done very well both times (once with an all-time great team, to be fair, but once with a group of overachievers), so there’s no evidence he’s a bad postseason manager. Nor have there been any particularly egregious cases of the team not living up to their talent - ZiPS projected the Sox to win 79 games this year and that’s almost exactly where they will end up.
Bullpen management? It’s not perfect but I think literally every fan base thinks they could manage the bullpen better than their team’s manager. The grass is rarely greener in that respect.
Cora has been to the postseason two times and done very well both times (once with an all-time great team, to be fair, but once with a group of overachievers), so there’s no evidence he’s a bad postseason manager. Nor have there been any particularly egregious cases of the team not living up to their talent - ZiPS projected the Sox to win 79 games this year and that’s almost exactly where they will end up.
Bullpen management? It’s not perfect but I think literally every fan base thinks they could manage the bullpen better than their team’s manager. The grass is rarely greener in that respect.
Change of clubhouse culture, change of coaches, new approach in spring training. Fresh slate with nobody thinking they have extra rope because of a personal bond with the manager.
(I mean, do you think no-urgency Cora is going to do anything different in the next spring training, or won't be preaching "Oh, we're better than this and we'll get 'em in the second half," and "as long as we win series, we'll be OK."
As a sort of cultural aside, it's interesting that I haven't seen one "pro-Bloom" poster seriously argue that firing Bloom was a disaster, or that he "deserved" to be kept on. Because most pro-Bloom posters know there are pros and cons to Blooms approach. And so it's genuinely weird to me that people still think Cora's some kind of genius, or somehow "deserves" to be kept on when the team needs a housecleaning. Because I guarantee you that Cora wasn't arguing he shouldn't play Hernandez (who was toast); team assessment of how players are doing on the field comes from Cora and his staff. Not from Bloom making his own best guesses based on a TV broadcast. And that's part of the equation that needs to be changed.
His 2019 was reason enough to fire him but it also offered a peak into his approach which clearly was mentally lazy which, to me, was the culture of the team the past two seasons.
Kinda weird for you to guarantee that unless you have some insider knowledge. None of us has any clue what's going on that shapes personnel decisions.
Would I like them to find a way to fix the defense? Absolutely. And if someone could guarantee that we'd get that with coaching/managerial changes then I'd sign up in a heartbeat. But I also assume that a) everyone in the organization down to the janitorial staff knows the defense has been a problem and b) if they thought it was a problem easily fixed by replacing Cora they'd have blown him out the airlock without a second thought.
I also assume the organization values him, having hired him for this role twice. And since they are the ones with insider knowledge, I'm fine deferring to their judgement.
There are some things which are provable by reasonable inferences of normal human beings on the publicly available facts. There are others which are so improbable that it requires a positive showing they are so.
If you really think Bloom didn't have input from the field staff and coaches as to how players were doing on various aspects of their game, and how they were likely (or unlikely) to progress. . .I just don't know what to say. Do you really think Cora told Bloom - The staff and I have no information or opinion for you on how Hernandez [e.g.] is progressing at hitting and fielding. You will have to make your own decision based on the NESN broadcast, then tell us whether or not to play him in any given game. We are but passive vessels O Sahib.
If you think Cora didn't play Hernandez when he didn't have to (until shortly before the trade deadline, when he still found ways to get Hernandez into the line-up or out on the field), again, I just don't know what to say. Do you really think Bloom was making out the lineups?
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If Cora were to somehow shake of the evil fetters of Bloom and lead the team to play smart, competitive, possibly winning baseball for the final weeks, I'd be dubious of SSS, but I'd entertain the notion that the "unfettered Cora Way" might be worth taking a flyer on next year.
But it's been more of the same.
It is almost certain to be so next year as well. To the point where they ought to clean house.
I think Cora is incredibly average and ridiculously overrated. The Cora zealots put the Bloomers to shame. I actually think the vast majority of managers are very average and there isn’t a whole lot of difference between them, other than personality.
And what I really believe is that all managers, even the “good” ones, have a shelf life. He’s reached his. The team is entering a new chapter, and there should be a new Manager as a part of it.
And what I really believe is that all managers, even the “good” ones, have a shelf life. He’s reached his. The team is entering a new chapter, and there should be a new Manager as a part of it.
I don't have especially strong feelings about Cora. He seems alright to me, and I don't understand others' disdain for him. I much prefer him to a good ole boy type manager like Valentine or Farrell, and I think given the other negative factors for those weighing a decision to play in Boston (weather, distance from the homes of most MLB players, hyper attentive media, obnoxious fan base) it helps to have a players' manager, especially one who's younger and multilingual.
If we'd have cleaned house and he went too, I don't think I would have lost any sleep. But I think it'd have happened by now.
If we'd have cleaned house and he went too, I don't think I would have lost any sleep. But I think it'd have happened by now.
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I agree. Avid fans obsess over the in-game decisions, but over a 162 game season most of that balances out. Most managers have a reasonable logic for those decisions, and it either works or it doesn't.
I've always felt like the best managers are the ones who are adept at effectively managing all the off-field stuff over the course of a long, tiring season.
I used to think Cora fell into that category. But I'm not so sure anymore. I'd be perfectly fine with moving on from him and truly getting a fresh start. But if not, that's fine too. Honestly, I don't think the manager makes the top 5 of things this franchise needs to fix to see more MLB success.
I don’t think managers get fired with two weeks left in the season all that often. It’s always Black Monday
Sorry, I should have trimmed my quote at the semicolon. "I guarantee you that Cora wasn't arguing he shouldn't play Hernandez (who was toast)" was all I was responding to there, the stuff after that I agree with you. Obviously Bloom is getting constant input from Cora & staff, but we also really don't know everything that goes into the personnel decision sausage.
Let the new CBO pick his coach, without ownership influence. Might be part of starting the CBO process now so they don't leave Cora hanging.
I think a fresh start is the right way to go with the whole staff - but either way, I want it to be 100% the CBO's choice, not ownership.
I think a fresh start is the right way to go with the whole staff - but either way, I want it to be 100% the CBO's choice, not ownership.
Yeah, a number of factors go into whether to sit or trade a player or acquire a replacement. But Cora was publicly plugging Hernandez every step of the way, until mid-June, and I think it's a bit far-out to assume that while he was publicly and repeatedly saying Hernandez would come around, he was also privately begging Bloom to trade him and find a different SS. (I mean, I think he's a weasel, but I don't think he's that much of a weasel.)
I was thinking about the middle-infield situation and made a longer post in the Bloom thread. Links to Cora comments and so-forth there.
TLDR version for here is that this seems like a hitting-coach failure, plus a fielding coach failure; 1) Hernandez does not hit or field. 2) Arroyo does not hit. 3) Valdez does not hit (enough) or field (enough). 4) Story does not hit when he returns.
Same here ... but I'd put the chances of them allowing the new baseball czar to replace him as fat and slim.
I posted this in the Bloom fired thread also:
I’m pinning this season on Cora, not Bloom.
The lack of preparation evidenced in mental lapses all over the field is on Cora. Sure, the pitching wasn’t great, but it should have been good enough to not suffer series losses or sweeps at the hands the Pirates (0-3), Cardinals (0-3), Rockies (1-2), Angels (0-3 in Anaheim), Guardians (1-2 in Cleveland), Marlins (0-3), A’s (1-2 in Oakland), Giants (1-2) and Nationals (1-2). (Total of 5-21)
One game I was listening to on the radio, Joe and Will were talking about how the Sox had a winning record against the best pitchers in the league. They mentioned hearing from a player that they really got up for those games and concentrated on grinding out at-bats. Great. But that should be EVERY game. That it wasn’t is on the manager and his coaches.
I used to be fine with Cora, but I no longer am. Win even 5 of those games noted above, particularly before the deadline, and this is a completely different season. The Sox would have been in playoff position and Bloom would have been buying pitching at the deadline instead of standing pat. I put those losses on Cora for his preparation.
I'm ready for a new manager and coaching staff.
I’m pinning this season on Cora, not Bloom.
The lack of preparation evidenced in mental lapses all over the field is on Cora. Sure, the pitching wasn’t great, but it should have been good enough to not suffer series losses or sweeps at the hands the Pirates (0-3), Cardinals (0-3), Rockies (1-2), Angels (0-3 in Anaheim), Guardians (1-2 in Cleveland), Marlins (0-3), A’s (1-2 in Oakland), Giants (1-2) and Nationals (1-2). (Total of 5-21)
One game I was listening to on the radio, Joe and Will were talking about how the Sox had a winning record against the best pitchers in the league. They mentioned hearing from a player that they really got up for those games and concentrated on grinding out at-bats. Great. But that should be EVERY game. That it wasn’t is on the manager and his coaches.
I used to be fine with Cora, but I no longer am. Win even 5 of those games noted above, particularly before the deadline, and this is a completely different season. The Sox would have been in playoff position and Bloom would have been buying pitching at the deadline instead of standing pat. I put those losses on Cora for his preparation.
I'm ready for a new manager and coaching staff.
They've already made noises about expecting him to be back. If they hold to that, then I suspect that if it's not a condition it's at least something the candidate would have have a good reason for not wanting.
If I were making the decisions, I'd want to know why the team was so sloppy and/or dumb in all phases of the game ... and how the same voice (Cora) that was in the team's ear this season was going to be able to get players to clean it up in 2024.
Of course, if I were making the decisions, I'd clean house.
OK, so at 74-76 the Sox are now 2 games under .500. They are 2-10 in their last 12 games with 12 games left. Three games with Texas, three with the Chi Sox, two with Tampa and four with Baltimore. If the skid continues I can't see Cora keeping his job and if the Rays and O's are still battling for first place they won't be catching any breaks with either team resting players heading into the post season.
2018 was pretty great, but seems like in every other year, Cora’s teams haven’t been ready to start the season, and in the last few years, have limped to the finish line. Not a great look. I’m sort of ambivalent about him returning, but they can’t bring most of this staff back. Something’s gotta change.
I don't think Cora is at all suited to manage a Rays-style team like Bloom was envisioning/constructing — one with lots of mix and match players where starters and relievers are interchangeable and you're constantly churning the waiver wire. The sense I get is that Cora has his guys and his set roles and presumably prefers set-and-forget lineups and bullpens, and that he's a veterans-first guy who wants a stable clubhouse without much turnover (which isn't to say he's anti-rookie — he stuck with Casas — but that a rebuilding/bridge team is too many different players to manage and figure out and makes it impossible to find consistency). I also think that giving him too many options is a mistake; he needs a top-tier core particularly in the bullpen so as to minimize his tendency in those situations to tinker. He's a manager for finished rosters with established players, not someone you want if you need to separate wheat from chaff or try new things.
I'm ambivalent on him staying or going. I think his attitude of going balls to the wall particularly on the bases has a lot of downside (I wouldn't be surprised if part of the issues down the stretch are that these guys are gassed), and the persistent bad defense suggests that he's not tamping down bad impulses, but the players clearly adore him. I also think a fair amount of the baserunning and defense issues come down to the personnel; what're you supposed to do with guys like Verdugo or Yoshida or Devers who are wildly inconsistent or flat-out bad in those facets? I imagine the new POBO will want his own person, but to a certain degree, that it's Bloom who's gone and not Cora suggests the latter has the backing of ownership, and I'd be surprised if he doesn't get at least one more season with a better (hopefully) roster.
I'm ambivalent on him staying or going. I think his attitude of going balls to the wall particularly on the bases has a lot of downside (I wouldn't be surprised if part of the issues down the stretch are that these guys are gassed), and the persistent bad defense suggests that he's not tamping down bad impulses, but the players clearly adore him. I also think a fair amount of the baserunning and defense issues come down to the personnel; what're you supposed to do with guys like Verdugo or Yoshida or Devers who are wildly inconsistent or flat-out bad in those facets? I imagine the new POBO will want his own person, but to a certain degree, that it's Bloom who's gone and not Cora suggests the latter has the backing of ownership, and I'd be surprised if he doesn't get at least one more season with a better (hopefully) roster.
Carrabis is on Tony Mazz's baseball show tonight, and he is 1,000% convinced Cora will be back next year. He essentially backed up what Cotillo wrote the other day about Cora's influence/relationship with ownership.
Not enough to hit the cut-off man when he repeatedly asks them to. (While that may sound flippant, the broader point holds true. The player's adoration isn't doing anything that we can see that's tangible on the field. If the club was playing sharp and crisp baseball, this kind of point would have some weight behind it.)