Aaron Hernandez charged with 1st degree murder; released by Patriots

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Koufax

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What difference does it make?  He confirmed that he was in the car with Hernandez by texting "NFL".  Minutes later he was dead and Hernandez walked into his front door with a gun in his hand.  Does it matter whether he was worried that he might be killed?  The important point is that he was killed and AH either pulled the trigger or had one of his boys do it.  So he is a bad person who will be locked away for a long time -- no matter whether 'just so you know" was typed in dread or casually.
 

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http://www.albanyherald.com/news/2013/jun/29/branch-speaks-out-calls-embattled-former-teammate-/
 
Branch even lives across the street from Hernandez in North Attleborough and came to the defense of the tight end Saturday during his 8th annual Skills and Drills camp at Albany State University, saying he frequently visited his house and was “shocked” to hear that he was accused of murder.
“Aaron is a great guy and a great friend of mine and a great teammate,” Branch told The Herald “I love him to death, and it was shocking to hear his name involved in this situation. I truly hope and pray he doesn’t have any dealings with it.”
 

Average Reds

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Koufax said:
What difference does it make?  He confirmed that he was in the car with Hernandez by texting "NFL".  Minutes later he was dead and Hernandez walked into his front door with a gun in his hand.  Does it matter whether he was worried that he might be killed?  The important point is that he was killed and AH either pulled the trigger or had one of his boys do it.  So he is a bad person who will be locked away for a long time -- no matter whether 'just so you know" was typed in dread or casually.
 
This is precisely the point.
 
Assuming that what has been presented in court is true, the evidence against AH is incredibly powerful because (1) it is easy to understand, and (2) it does not lend itself to alternative explanations.
 
We know from video surveillance that Hernandez drove Lloyd to the place where he was murdered minutes before the killing took place. We know that Hernandez then left the scene minutes later. We know that Hernandez was seen on video minutes after this waving a gun around. And we know that Hernandez engaged in an attempt to destroy evidence when confronted by police.
 
Hernandez' attorneys can parse this all they want, but no reasonable person can draw a conclusion from this set of facts that doesn't result in Hernandez going away for the rest of his life.
 

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Average Reds said:
This is precisely the point.
 
Assuming that what has been presented in court is true, the evidence against AH is incredibly powerful because (1) it is easy to understand, and (2) it does not lend itself to alternative explanations.
 
We know from video surveillance that Hernandez drove Lloyd to the place where he was murdered minutes before the killing took place. We know that Hernandez then left the scene minutes later. We know that Hernandez was seen on video minutes after this waving a gun around. And we know that Hernandez engaged in an attempt to destroy evidence when confronted by police.
 
Hernandez' attorneys can parse this all they want, but no reasonable person can draw a conclusion from this set of facts that doesn't result in Hernandez going away for the rest of his life.
I agree to some degree based on our current knowledge of the evidence and I think eventually the V&N thread will house the detailed trial analysis once things pick up, but let me point out a few things.  However, since all we have is the prosecutions version of the evidence and events, we really don't know the half of it.
 
First let me say, I think the evidence is pretty large in regards to Hernandez.  Having said that, what we have is circumstantial in regards to placing him at the scene and having the means (weapons) to carry out the crime.  All its going to take to start creating doubt is for some of the evidence we all feel is solid, to not be so solid.  And since all we have is a recital of the evidence by the prosecutor at a bail hearing, we are in wait and see what the defense has mode.
 
For instance, surveillance video has this car presumably at home, on way to Lloyd's, from Lloyd's, murder scene, back at home, back at Enterprise.  I'd imagine the video quality varies, what if one video is clear as a bell, but the Industrial park video is blurry to the point where you can't even tell what type of car there is?  Or what if that video shows another car in the area at the same time?  Or what if Hernandez' lawyers, aided with the actual circumstances presuming Hernandez has something that helps his cause, find a video that shows this car somewhere else around the time of the murder? 
 
What if Lloyd has additional texts in his phone that bring the current ones we know about into a different context?  Or what if he's got additional texts that cast some doubt on the current understanding of the events?  Or what if he ends out of every 10 texts to his sister ends with "just so you know"?  
 
Again, I'm not saying AH is innocent.  I think the circumstantial evidence has pieced together a fairly tight puzzle, but the problem with a large circumstantial case, is all it takes is one piece not to fit and you've got reasonable doubt.  Juries like to things fit together for big cases, like details about how someone was killed, and by who. Putting three men at a scene doesn't exactly finish the story.  Add the fact that you've likely got three somewhat thug savvy defendants that might all clam up and its not as neat as you think.
 
When you add a contrasting piece of evidence, possibly another person or two, and some circumstances we don't know about to the mix and things might be stickier than we think at this point.
 

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It's been almost 40 years since I took criminal law and that was in another state, so pardon me if I am misguided.  I was taught that being part of a conspiracy to commit a crime that was actually committed is every bit as serious as having committed the crime directly.  Is that true?  If so, how does it matter who pulled the trigger?  It appears that AH was not only part of the conspiracy, he was the mastermind (to the extent such a grandiose term can be used to describe what happened).  So if the victim was murdered and someone else pulled the trigger, isn't AH in doo-doo just as deeply as if he had pulled the trigger himself?
 
If the video is unclear, that's a problem for the prosecution.  I still think that "just so you know" is irrelevant to the case.  "NFL" tells us that he was with AH minutes before he was killed.  That's all we need to know about that.  The victim's foreboding or lack thereof is irrelevant.
 

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Average Reds said:
This is precisely the point.
 
Assuming that what has been presented in court is true, the evidence against AH is incredibly powerful because (1) it is easy to understand, and (2) it does not lend itself to alternative explanations.
 
We know from video surveillance that Hernandez drove Lloyd to the place where he was murdered minutes before the killing took place. We know that Hernandez then left the scene minutes later. We know that Hernandez was seen on video minutes after this waving a gun around. And we know that Hernandez engaged in an attempt to destroy evidence when confronted by police.
 
Hernandez' attorneys can parse this all they want, but no reasonable person can draw a conclusion from this set of facts that doesn't result in Hernandez going away for the rest of his life.
 
 
The bolded is my only quibble with this.  Seen carrying a gun in his hand is very different than seen waving it around. Unless I missed something, it has only been reported as the former and makes a difference.
 

simplyeric

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axx said:
 
I suppose it's possible they came along not knowing what Hernandez had in store for Lloyd.
Or added muscle.

'just get in the car, lloyd'

Sure, Hernandez is a beast, but if someone is worried they might take a punchers chance against one guy... With 3 guys you're more likely to just hope it goes well.
 

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Average Reds said:
Hernandez' attorneys can parse this all they want, but no reasonable person can draw a conclusion from this set of facts that doesn't result in Hernandez going away for the rest of his life.
 
 
The key, of course, is that the prosecution has to actually prove all of what has been reported occurred.  We can't just assume it is so---because sometimes things are different, or more complicated, than the prosecutor discloses.
 
I don't think any of this looks good at all for Hernandez, but we're hearing part of one side of the story---it's just not enough to be sure yet.
 

fairlee76

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rembrat said:
 
Do you really think someone who knew his life was in danger would be so subtle and understated?
Yes. He sure as hell could not run at that point. He knew he made a mistake getting into the car and was making sure someone knew who e was with.
 

Boston Brawler

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Not a lawyer, so will the prosecution have to prove that "NFL" was regularly used by Lloyd to refer to Hernandez? Could the defense reasonably argue that Lloyd, as a semi pro football player, had ties to more than one NFL player? Obviously there is a boatload of other evidence, but do any of the lawyers on here see the texts being a contested issue?
 

DJnVa

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rembrat said:
Do you really think someone who knew his life was in danger would be so subtle and understated?
 
Yes.  I mean, if you've ever been in that situation, maybe you can speak to something different, but it doesn't strike me as unrealistic at all. 
 

DJnVa

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Boston Brawler said:
Not a lawyer, so will the prosecution have to prove that "NFL" was regularly used by Lloyd to refer to Hernandez? Could the defense reasonably argue that Lloyd, as a semi pro football player, had ties to more than one NFL player? Obviously there is a boatload of other evidence, but do any of the lawyers on here see the texts being a contested issue?
 
Eh.  Without those texts there still seems to be a lot of evidence, no?  If we never heard about those texts I don't think we'd have anyone posting saying it was someone else and AH wasn't involved.
 

simplyeric

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fairlee76 said:
Yes. He sure as hell could not run at that point. He knew he made a mistake getting into the car and was making sure someone knew who e was with.
I agree that's makes sense, but why wouldn't he just text her the name and then say ' hey I just let my lady know I'm with you right now' ..

Seems like that would make someone think twice about executing him?

I don't live life with these kinds of questions, so there's prob a reason that doesn't make sense.
 
M

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WELL FOLKS LETS MOVE IT OVER TO URBAN DICTIONARY:
 
Always a sure sign that a thread is about to get even better.
 
Thanks for keeping it real-er, Laddie.
 

rembrat

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Yes.  I mean, if you've ever been in that situation, maybe you can speak to something different, but it doesn't strike me as unrealistic at all. 
 
Then Lloyd was one smooth cat because my last text would have been soaked in piss and shit.
 

fairlee76

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simplyeric said:
I agree that's makes sense, but why wouldn't he just text her the name and then say ' hey I just let my lady know I'm with you right now' ..

Seems like that would make someone think twice about executing him?

I don't live life with these kinds of questions, so there's prob a reason that doesn't make sense.
Yeah, no idea why he would not tell AH that his lady knew who Lloyd was with.  Maybe he was worried AH would kill her?  Maybe Lloyd did not want to look like a "bitch?"
 
Your last sentence applies to me as well.  It is fucking insane to me that folks deal with these types of situations.
 

moly99

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rembrat said:
Then Lloyd was one smooth cat because my last text would have been soaked in piss and shit.
 

I'm not sure if you're serious or not, but having been in a couple of situations where I could have died (by drowning, not by getting shot,) I can say that your adrenaline takes over your fear.
 
PedroKsBambino said:
The key, of course, is that the prosecution has to actually prove all of what has been reported occurred.  We can't just assume it is so---because sometimes things are different, or more complicated, than the prosecutor discloses.
 
I don't think any of this looks good at all for Hernandez, but we're hearing part of one side of the story---it's just not enough to be sure yet.
 
I don't see how video tapes, cell phone records et. al. have another side to a story. This isn't a case where the prosecution has a witness saying one thing and the defense can counter with another witness saying something else.
 

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That's a piece that fails some logic for me. AH went to pick him up with seemingly little concern that anyone else knew they were together. So either the murder wasn't the plan or AH was certain his rep as a killer would be enough to silence witnesses. Both seem like a stretch to me.
 

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Maybe AH really did intend to scare Lloyd, something went wrong (Lloyd was shot unintentionally during the "scare") and they decided to just finish the job at that point.  It would explain the panic and the lack of preparation/plotting.  
 

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Not a lawyer, so will the prosecution have to prove that "NFL" was regularly used by Lloyd to refer to Hernandez? Could the defense reasonably argue that Lloyd, as a semi pro football player, had ties to more than one NFL player? Obviously there is a boatload of other evidence, but do any of the lawyers on here see the texts being a contested issue?


Eh. Without those texts there still seems to be a lot of evidence, no? If we never heard about those texts I don't think we'd have anyone posting saying it was someone else and AH wasn't involved.


I agree. Just trying to get an opinion on what the defense may do...
 

DJnVa

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PaulinMyrBch said:
That's a piece that fails some logic for me. AH went to pick him up with seemingly little concern that anyone else knew they were together. So either the murder wasn't the plan or AH was certain his rep as a killer would be enough to silence witnesses. Both seem like a stretch to me.
 
Or AH wasn't too bright.
 

Average Reds

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Rudy Pemberton said:
Or AH and his buddies had killed before. Kind of surprised Lloyd didn't have his own piece wiith him. Makes me think that the original argument likely wasnt about the previous homicide. If so, why does he get in the car, especially since he had 30-40 minutes to get out of town when he knew they were on their way.
 
There are 15 different reasons why people who are in a dangerous situation don't flee when they have a chance, and this case is no different.  The most likely reason is that they cannot believe that someone they consider to be a friend will actually do harm to them regardless of how angry they may be. 
 
Having said this, the texts sent by Lloyd indicate (to me at least) that he was beginning to realize that being in the car with Hernandez that night put him in some danger.
 

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PedroKsBambino said:
The key, of course, is that the prosecution has to actually prove all of what has been reported occurred.  We can't just assume it is so---because sometimes things are different, or more complicated, than the prosecutor discloses.
 
I don't think any of this looks good at all for Hernandez, but we're hearing part of one side of the story---it's just not enough to be sure yet.
 
It's important to remember that this isn't simply a case where we are going by media reports.  What I outlined has been presented in open court. So we're not talking about the reports being wrong - we're talking about facts used to support the decision to deny bail to Hernandez.
 
With that as context, I am hard pressed to come up with an alternative explanation for the facts I outlined.  There is no "other side" to video evidence showing AH and the victim driving to the area where he was killed and then leaving minutes later without the victim but with a gun.
 
Unless the prosecutor is simply lying about the evidence Hernandez is done.
 

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Average Reds said:
It's important to remember that this isn't simply a case where we are going by media reports.  What I outlined has been presented in open court. So we're not talking about the reports being wrong - we're talking about facts used to support the decision to deny bail to Hernandez.
 
With that as context, I am hard pressed to come up with an alternative explanation for the facts I outlined.  There is no "other side" to video evidence showing AH and the victim driving to the area where he was killed and then leaving minutes later without the victim but with a gun.
 
Unless the prosecutor is simply lying about the evidence Hernandez is done.
 
Not to slice hairs, but you're giving a pretty strong version of whats happened.  Nothing technically has been presented for proof of guilt or innocence.  They have not given anyone(possibly the defense) the tapes, the texts, the cell records, the casings, nothing.  If you or I were to see the videos, we might reach a position that isn't as strong as stated in court.  We don't know because we haven't seen them, eventually a jury will.  What you've got is a narrative written by someone who's sole intent was to make it sound as strong as possible for two reasons; 1. To ensure bail would be denied, and 2. To poison the jury pool.  He's done both based on your last post. 
 
Again, I'm not saying this is a case that is easily defensible, but trust me when I say there will be an alternative explanation for the facts outlined by the prosecutor.
 

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I haven't seen this brought up, but maybe Lloyd got in the car thinking he might die willingly because he was afraid AH might go in his house guns a blazing with his family in the house?
 

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PaulinMyrBch said:
Not to slice hairs, but you're giving a pretty strong version of whats happened.  Nothing technically has been presented for proof of guilt or innocence.  They have not given anyone(possibly the defense) the tapes, the texts, the cell records, the casings, nothing.  If you or I were to see the videos, we might reach a position that isn't as strong as stated in court.  We don't know because we haven't seen them, eventually a jury will.  What you've got is a narrative written by someone who's sole intent was to make it sound as strong as possible for two reasons; 1. To ensure bail would be denied, and 2. To poison the jury pool.  He's done both based on your last post. 
 
Again, I'm not saying this is a case that is easily defensible, but trust me when I say there will be an alternative explanation for the facts outlined by the prosecutor.
 
I have couched everything in the context of "assuming that what has been presented in court is true" so I agree with you. 
 
As described, the evidence doesn't have much nuance to it. It either exists or it doesn't.  And given the way it has been characterized, if it doesn't exist - or is not as definitive as we have been lead to believe - I would think the prosecutor would have some explaining to do.
 
So yeah, I am making the assumption that the evidence described in court is what they say it is. 
 

Judge Mental13

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The more I think about the more it wouldn't surprise me at all to find out that AH was super high on coke the night of the murder.  The texts to his friends, the fact that it all went down after 2am on a Sunday, the lack of any sort of coherent plan, the fact that it happened right next to his house.  I dunno I don't think anyone would ever confuse Hernandez with a rhodes scholar or anything but the decisions he made that night just strike me as the decisions of someone who was not at all in their right mind.
 

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So, after skimming the past few pages, we now have a coked-up AH and his posse, heading out in a rented Altima to resume their serial killing spree, picking up the intended target, who knows about the other kills and told his girl who told her sister who told AH and who gets into the car willingly so AH won't blow away his entire family.
 
Add a disco number sung but a warehouse night watchman, and this was the fourth episode of Cop Rock.
 
Just so you know
 

rembrat

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E5 Yaz said:
So, after skimming the past few pages, we now have a coked-up AH and his posse, heading out in a rented Altima to resume their serial killing spree, picking up the intended target, who knows about the other kills and told his girl who told her sister who told AH and who gets into the car willingly so AH won't blow away his entire family.
 
Add a disco number sung but a warehouse night watchman, and this was the fourth episode of Cop Rock.
 
Just so you know
 
Actually, I'm starting to envision Lloyd as Lefty in Donnie Brasco. He knows he fucked up, he knows he is going to be whacked, he knows this is how it must go down.
 

E5 Yaz

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rembrat said:
Actually, I'm starting to envision Lloyd as Lefty in Donnie Brasco. He knows he fucked up, he knows he is going to be whacked, he knows this is how it must go down.
 
I wonder if he left his top dresser drawer open
 

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Couldn't the text had also been to his gf to let him know that he is out at 2 am without her but with someone she knows and not getting some strange. I know it's apples and oranges to compare but if I was out at 2 am I might text my wife to say I'm with friends and not cheating on her. We know nothing about the girl but would a jealous girlfriend not fit into this soap opera?
 

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Boston Brawler said:
Not a lawyer, so will the prosecution have to prove that "NFL" was regularly used by Lloyd to refer to Hernandez? Could the defense reasonably argue that Lloyd, as a semi pro football player, had ties to more than one NFL player? Obviously there is a boatload of other evidence, but do any of the lawyers on here see the texts being a contested issue?
 
Who knows. At the early stages of an arrest, the defense team knows little. They know what the prosecution has told them. What Hernandez has told them. And what is in the press. It's impossible to discern where the truth lies. Hernandez's lawyers will hire investigators to interview witnesses. They'll conduct discovery.
 
The defense won't say anything because they don't know anything. They won't take anything anyone (including Hernandez says at face value). The Commonwealth has the advantage of being a few hundred or even a  thousand hours into their investigation at this point.
 
Great trial lawyers make their living knowing what to concede. If you challenge everything before a fact finder you risk losing credibility. More than likely, they'll challenge the meaning of those texts. As in Odin wasn't scared of Hernandez - he was a star fucker. 
 

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Average Reds said:
It's important to remember that this isn't simply a case where we are going by media reports.  What I outlined has been presented in open court. So we're not talking about the reports being wrong - we're talking about facts used to support the decision to deny bail to Hernandez.
 
With that as context, I am hard pressed to come up with an alternative explanation for the facts I outlined.  There is no "other side" to video evidence showing AH and the victim driving to the area where he was killed and then leaving minutes later without the victim but with a gun.
 
Unless the prosecutor is simply lying about the evidence Hernandez is done.
 
I didn't suggest it's about media reports, I said it is not a good assumption that everything the prosecution outlines will be proven 100%, or that there do not exist any other explanations, arguments, or facts.

The standard of proof (and lack of any cross examination or introduction of other evidence or theories) makes the bail hearing vastly different than the actual trial.
 
An obvious 'alternative explanation' is that AH's buddy shot the guy and AH tried to talk him out of it in the moment, then helped him cover it up.  That'll get him some jail time, but a lot less than is being suggested.   Do I think that is what happened?  Doesn't seem likely.  But it is really early here, so I'm just not at the 100% confidence in all parts of this that many seem to be.
 

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The explanation that makes the most sense to me is that Aaron Hernandez is a psychopath with violent tendencies, some sort of narcissistic disorder, ties to other violent individuals and money, fame and superior athletic abilities. 
 

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In my book there's just not enough information to determine whether Lloyd was bragging that he was hanging out with "NFL" or leaving a clue in case he died, but Lloyd's intent isn't all that important: however he meant it it's just more evidence that he was with Hernandez minutes before he died.
 

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I agree that we still don't really know much.  As has been said already, we're heard half the story.  It's likely that the story we've heard is based in fact to some extent, but we need to hear from the defense.
 
I will say that the fact that the Patriots released him so quickly speaks volumes to me.  Perhaps more than it should.  I assume that Belichick/Kraft/whoever have some form of connections with the investigating entities, and were probably operating on some form of insider info.
 

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My understanding was that Lloyd was picked up at the same house that his sister was in, wasn't he? And I thought that he was reaching out to her to make sure that she saw who he left with.  Minutes before he was killed at 3:25am.
 
I don't see that as very likely that he was bragging about it.  Especially when put into context that the NYT article laid out (he was very friendly with AH to the point that they hung out together sans sisters a lot, and he had borrowed his car just the day before).
 

soxfan121

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Darnell's Son said:
I haven't seen this brought up, but maybe Lloyd got in the car thinking he might die willingly because he was afraid AH might go in his house guns a blazing with his family in the house?
 
Tyson Zone, man.
 
E5 Yaz said:
So, after skimming the past few pages, we now have a coked-up AH and his posse, heading out in a rented Altima to resume their serial killing spree, picking up the intended target, who knows about the other kills and told his girl who told her sister who told AH and who gets into the car willingly so AH won't blow away his entire family.
 
Add a disco number sung but a warehouse night watchman, and this was the fourth episode of Cop Rock.
 
Just so you know
 
You win at the internet. I lol'ed. 
 

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dirtynine said:
Maybe AH really did intend to scare Lloyd, something went wrong (Lloyd was shot unintentionally during the "scare") and they decided to just finish the job at that point.  It would explain the panic and the lack of preparation/plotting.  
 

Accidentally shot five times? Unless you meant that they finished the job by shooting him four more times (which would still make them guilty of murder rather than manslaughter) I don't see how that's possible.
 

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Shelterdog said:
In my book there's just not enough information to determine whether Lloyd was bragging that he was hanging out with "NFL" or leaving a clue in case he died, but Lloyd's intent isn't all that important: however he meant it it's just more evidence that he was with Hernandez minutes before he died.
 
Really? You don't think it's suspicious that Lloyd felt it necessary to text his sister at three thirty in the morning? Lloyd and Hernandez were friends, that much has been proven and written about. So it wouldn't be out of the ordinary that Lloyd was hanging out with AH. What is out of the ordinary is Lloyd feeling it was necessary to let his sister know at 3:30am because he knew something was up once he got into the car.
 

mauidano

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I can't get over how Lloyd was able to text with three guys in this Altima who are about to kill him.
 

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mauidano said:
I can't get over how Lloyd was able to text with three guys in this Altima who are about to kill him.
Maybe it was some really cold 'Iceman" Kuklinski type stuff: "What are you doing? Texting? You think the internet's gonna save you? You text them to come down and stop me.......I guess the net's busy."
 

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mauidano said:
I can't get over how Lloyd was able to text with three guys in this Altima who are about to kill him.
 
Just because it came from Lloyd's cellphone doesn't mean he was the one who typed the message. Obviously, it makes little sense for the murderer(s) to type and send the message, but it is also difficult to envision Lloyd being allowed to pull out his phone in the middle of all this. 
 
Since I heard this bit of information last week, I've found it to be suspicious. Something doesn't add up with this text message. Maybe Lloyd's girlfriend was texting him, and one of Hernandez associates was texting her back, seemingly unaware what was about to happen?
 
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