nolasoxfan said:What 2010 murders? I thought the Boston murders were July 2012.
Well, Hernandez was involved in a massacre in Foxborough in 2010:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201012060nwe.htm
nolasoxfan said:What 2010 murders? I thought the Boston murders were July 2012.
Good point Even if the witness were expected to testify that she understood it to be a warning, it's hard to make out "fear of imminent death." A careful judge might leave it out in any event to avoid some substantial prejudice if he were wrong. Sounds like there's enough tying Hernandez without it, but I suppose this is how a case gets chipped away.DennyDoyle'sBoil said:I'm a bit out of my depth here, but ...
1) Residual exception is very narrowly construed in criminal cases, because hearsay in criminal cases is grounded in the confrontation clause, not just the rules of evidence. Given that there is an express exception for statements made by a murder victim who fears imminent death (Ma R Evid 804(b)(2)), I wouldn't think the residual exception is a back door to expand that exception when it is not otherwise
What? If he thought there was a 30% chance they were going to kill him, the smart play would have been to tweet, "I think Aaron Hernandez is about to murder me #derangedTE #raylewiswannabe" Then he should have pointed the tweet out. It 100% ends their friendship but there is no way that raises the chance he is killed by AH that night.twibnotes said:Who says it's binary. Maybe he thinks it's 30-70 that he's going to get killed. If he says something to Hernandez and crew that indicates he suspects they may kill him, his chances of being killed may, in his mind, rise. Better to keep cool and show his potential killers that he is scared straight and intends to keep quiet about whatever it is Hernandez is fired up about.
DennyDoyle'sBoil said:The "NFL" text is interesting. I'm not sure it's admissible. It's definitely hearsay. The question is whether there's a hearsay exception. The one likely to apply is the exception for a murder victim who is "under the belief of imminent death" about the "cause or circumstances" of the death. If offered merely to show that the victim was in the car with Hernandez, it's a tough sell. I think the prosecutor is going to have to come up with some evidence that at the time of the text the victim thought he was going to die and the text was specifically an attempt to identify the victim. Sometimes, a hearsay statement is enough to show the applicability of an exception, "I'm in the car with Tom Brady and he's going to shoot me." This one is too vague, I think, and if MA law is like that in other places, it's the prosecution's burden to show applicability of a hearsay exception. So, they'll need someone in the car to testify, I think, to get the "NFL" text in -- unless they can find a non-hearsay purpose to offer it.
PaulinMyrBch said:The cell records seem to be more important from a location of where Lloyd is, when, and who he's with. I understood hearsay years ago, I'll let those more current on it explain admissibility, but I think the probative value is location and with who rather than state of mind.
smastroyin said:For the lawyers, I understand the interest in the technical discussion. For everyone else, why does this text mean so much to you?
I understand the fascination with what may have been running through Lloyd's mind that night, but I'm not sure his state of mind has any relevance to the case. Are people still kind of hoping that this was all an accident, etc. and leaning on this text as evidence that Lloyd was just chilling out with the guys a few minutes prior to being shot in the back?
The prosecution needs a hearsay exception for the text, or a jury will never see it. The requirement of authentication, the hurdle the prosecution is encountering in the Bradley Manning prosecution, is likely not a major obstacle here assuming testimony from Lloyd’s sister and, if necessary, the phone service provider, which likely would constitute “evidence sufficient to support a finding that the [text] is what its proponent claims.” Rule of Ev. 901; see also here.
As for the hearsay question, a strong argument can be made that the text fits the present sense impression exception for “[a] statement describing or explaining an event or condition, made while or immediately after the declarant perceived it.” Fed. R. Evid. 803(1). Lloyd’s alleged statement, essentially, “I am currently with [Hernandez]” fits. See United States v. Murillo, 288 F.3d 1126, 1137 (9th Cir. 2002) (noting the defendant's concession that the statement “I'm with Diana...and Rico” was a present sense impression).
Unfortunately for prosecutors, Massachusetts is among the minority of States that has not adopted the present sense impression hearsay exception. So the text is not coming in through that exception in a Massachusetts court, where Hernandez appears headed. (The statement could be admitted in federal court in Massachusetts under the Federal Rules of Evidence.)
glennhoffmania said:It's been a while since I even thought about the rules of evidence so I could be talking out of my ass but is this really even an issue? What if he emailed his sister? What if he left a note saying who he was with? When all of this broke I never thought that the admissibility of the text would be an issue for the prosecution.
Joe D Reid said:I think you're exactly right. The hearsay rule only excludes the content of hearsay statements (IOW, you can't introduce to the statement to prove the truth of the matter asserted). Here, the content is that Lloyd was with "NFL".
But the rule doesn't prevent putting the statement into evidence to prove something other than its content. So the text can be introduced to prove that a person with access to Lloyd's phone was in the car at a specific time, because the content of the text is not necessary to make that showing (the text could have said "ABC" and proved the same thing).
Of course, once the text is in, jurors tend to make their own conclusions about the import of the content.
Shelterdog said:Nah, everybody thinks that Hernandez is probably guilty as sin, it's just shop talk about an interesting document.
That assumes Lloyd's state of mind is cool enough for him to make that calculation. My point is that he's not entirely sure what is going to happen. He doesn't want to seem hysterical, especially if Hernandez's beef is that Lloyd was talking loosely to the wrong people.amarshal2 said:What? If he thought there was a 30% chance they were going to kill him, the smart play would have been to tweet, "I think Aaron Hernandez is about to murder me #derangedTE #raylewiswannabe" Then he should have pointed the tweet out. It 100% ends their friendship but there is no way that raises the chance he is killed by AH that night.
Aaron Hernandez' fiancée called cops on him just a few months ago when he punched a window in their house, and bled all over
the place ... TMZ has learned. Sources tell us the incident went down at their rented home in Hermosa Beach, CA ... where Aaron and some
buddies were partying from 4 PM to 9 AM.
We're told when Hernandez and Shayanna Jenkins began arguing -- because she wanted to pull the plug on the party -- Hernandez put his fist through a window. His hand was cut badly enough that there "was blood everywhere." We're told Jenkins called police in a last ditch effort to break up the party.
Law enforcement sources tell us cops have been to the house multiple times -- and that Hernandez "had no regard" for anyone who complained about
his all-night parties. The word neighbors keep using to describe him is ... "nightmare."
Tim Tebow tried to stop Aaron Hernandez from getting into a violent bar fight in 2007 while both were football players at the University of Florida, according to Gainesville police records. Hernandez, then a 17-year-old freshman, punched a bouncer in the head causing a broken ear drum on April 28, 2007, according to the police report. When a police officer could not find Hernandez at the scene of the altercation around 1 a.m., the report states he interviewed Tebow about it. The report stated the following: A waitress at The Swamp bar allegedly brought Hernandez two "alcoholic drinks," which he consumed but refused to pay for. That's when Hernandez got into a fight with a bouncer at the bar. Hernandez told police [bouncer Michael] Taphorn got in his face and began yelling at him. As Taphorn turned to walk away, Hernandez punched him in the side of the head. Taphorn declined medical treatment but the next day doctors discovered his right ear drum had burst and the injury would take four to six weeks to heal. When the officer could not find Hernandez immediately following the incident, he interviewed Tebow and Shaun Young. “Tebow stated that he witnessed the dispute,” the officer wrote. “… Tebow stated that he went over to try to help resolve the conflict.” Tebow went on to say he urged Hernandez to leave peacefully and tried to make arrangements to pay the bill. Two hours later, another officer found Hernandez and spoke with him about the incident. Tebow was present during the interview.
Hernandez told the officer both he and Tebow had already called then-UF football coach Urban Meyer and informed him about the incident. A day later, the investigator officer told Hernandez’s attorney, Huntley Johnson, he would not be pursuing charges in connection with alcohol served to minors at the restaurant, but he wrote, “it would be noted in the report so the coaches could handle it internally.” Gainesville police recommended Hernandez be charged with a felony, but it is unclear how the case was resolved because all of Hernandez’s other juvenile records are sealed. However, Hernandez still end up punching the bouncer.
RedOctober3829 said:As I said....
This guy has been enabled since college. Urban Meyer, like a lot of other incidents down in Gainesville, swept it under the rug.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/college/gators/os-tim-tebow-aaron-hernandez-bar-fight-07022013,0,6747621.story
Buck Showalter said:Tebow in the bar? Was he 21 years of age?
DrewDawg said:It's a sports bar type restaurant and has a kids menu.
OT, but do you really think a sports bar in Gainesville is going to not serve a star Gators player?Smiling Joe Hesketh said:That served 2 drinks to a 17 year old football player. No wonder they weren't real anxious to see the matter all the way through.
Nope. If they do it at places like Vermont and New Hampshire, they are surely going to in Gainesville.OilCanShotTupac said:OT, but do you really think a sports bar in Gainesville is going to not serve a star Gators player?
RedOctober3829 said:As I said....
This guy has been enabled since college. Urban Meyer, like a lot of other incidents down in Gainesville, swept it under the rug.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/college/gators/os-tim-tebow-aaron-hernandez-bar-fight-07022013,0,6747621.story
Meanwhile, Meyer's Gators racked up 31 arrests (25 players). Major college football has its dirty elements, but some coaches and programs are worse than others. Meyer's Florida teams seem to have been loaded with troublemakers. Funny that Tebow was a part of those teams.dcmissle said:As I said....
Meyer was quoted to the effect that AH was destined either for the HOF or prison, and the Florida staff reportedly was worried every time he went home.
The cover-up capabilities of a big time college football program are like no other.
They put him front and center as all that was right with college football and the Gators. Nice shield. So Tebow was a good blocker in college too. Sure Tim has some stories. Remarkable that not one peep out of the Pats regarding AH except two former players, Light and Branch.twibnotes said:Meanwhile, Meyer's Gators racked up 31 arrests (25 players). Major college football has its dirty elements, but some coaches and programs are worse than others. Meyer's Florida teams seem to have been loaded with troublemakers. Funny that Tebow was a part of those teams.
mauidano said:They put him front and center as all that was right with college football and the Gators. Nice shield. So Tebow was a good blocker in college too. Sure Tim has some stories. Remarkable that not one peep out of the Pats regarding AH except two former players, Light and Branch.
Van Everyman said:How do you feel about him being a "nightmare" of a neighbor?
Van Everyman said:How do you feel about him being a "nightmare" of a neighbor?
True. Point taken. I was just thinking about the players and former players. Quote from Pete Abraham in the Red Sox Extra Bases Column:Smiling Joe Hesketh said:They released him almost immediately after his arrest and had a jersey trade in for his stuff a few days later. I think there's no need to make a statement when their actions speak for themselves.
Also, it's hardly remarkable, as both Kraft and BB have been reported to be out of the country on vacation.
DennyDoyle'sBoil said:Yup. Just an interesting (or maybe not!) discussion about what seemed to jump out a bit as the most chilling bit of evidence revealed by the prosecutor during the bail hearing.
smastroyin said:The technical argument is quite interesting and I can see why people want to discuss the evidence. My question is more pointed towrds those who are using the text to try and say that Lloyd was not in a fearful state when he sent it.
Also, as for tweeting, I think it was established that he did not have a smart phone.
Van Everyman said:That's not a bad guess -- but Abraham isn't "insane" for his interpretation either. You might think that the news was big enough and terrible enough to warrant an early return ticket for Kraft or BB. Also, from his perspective, it's kind of hard not to acknowledge the different standards to which the two sports are held by the media.
dcmissle said:Now maybe the guy was destined to become a stone cold gang banger, but maybe he wasn't. In all events, getting him off the hook no doubt drove the entitlement mind set. The same world view that, remarkably, left him seemingly surprised when bail was denied.
PedroKsBambino said:Him being a bad guy is not, strictly speaking, relevant to the murder charges is what I took Myt1's point to be.
Smiling Joe Hesketh said:My point was that his perspective is idiotic because he clearly doesn't have the faintest idea of the way football is covered by its regular media members. He's used to being at the park every day bullshitting for a few hours. Footballs pressers happen at strict times once a day and the games are once a week.
If the Patriots had done nothing, he might, might, have had a point. Releasing the player immediately speaks louder than anything press conference could, IMO.
MannysDestination said:I understand why it's a point of contention to some extent. I originally interpreted the texts as being bravado as in "holy crap I'm in Aaron Hernandez' posse and I'm hanging out with him!" which made the fact that he was killed 2 minutes later true stone-cold killer stuff. If it was a warning to his sister and he thought that he was about to be murdered, that points more to bumbling or desperate criminal status. Not important in the grand scheme of what happened, but it's a different characterization of AH's role.
Stitch01 said:What exactly do the critics want the Patriots to do or say right now? They insta-released Hernandez after he was arrested and they issued a statement of sympathy for the victim.
Rudy Pemberton said:I think they'll try pretty damn hard to get money back from him. Is the NFLPA union really going to fight for him?
The union's job is only to worry about the union, not any one individual. If they feel it is not worth it to deal with AH, they will cut ties. Only, perhaps not as dramatically, publicly or completely as the Patriots did.dcmissle said:
That's the union's job, to be your only friend in the world if it comes to that.