2022-2023 General Celtics thread

HomeRunBaker

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I just wish they could figure out the defensive rebounding problem. I'm not sure it's just who wasn't playing.
Kornet, Muscala and Blake’s corpse played 67 of the 96 frontcourt minutes last night. Time Lord and Horford played 0. I think who was and wasn’t playing had a big role in yesterdays game. Kessler is a tough matchup for these guys.
 

Jimbodandy

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The play was to Hauser in the corner once the whole frontcourt collapsed on Grant at the rim. He's pressing. It's unfortunate that he's pressing, but shit happens. Not hard to understand why he felt like Superman since he was having such a great night, but damn Grant taking on two at the rim is generally a terrible shot.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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The play was to Hauser in the corner once the whole frontcourt collapsed on Grant at the rim. He's pressing. It's unfortunate that he's pressing, but shit happens. Not hard to understand why he felt like Superman since he was having such a great night, but damn Grant taking on two at the rim is generally a terrible shot.
This. It was a bad decision by a player who seemingly plays at the edge of their ability because that's what got them to this point.

Making more out of it seems a bit extra given the context of the game (road, Utah, second end B2B, rotation altered by absences). But that's what we collectively do.

Outside of Grant himself, I would bet you can't find many folks who want him taking that shot there, even if its not at the end. The expected probability has to be in basis points (% of a %)!
 

nighthob

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Kornet, Muscala and Blake’s corpse played 67 of the 96 frontcourt minutes last night. Time Lord and Horford played 0. I think who was and wasn’t playing had a big role in yesterdays game. Kessler is a tough matchup for these guys.
It’s not just Kessler, it’s Utah’s frontcourt of seven footers (with Markkanen at the 3) that causes teams (not just Boston) problems in Salt Lake where the Jazz get a friendly whistle. Boston similarly struggles against the Cavs with their two mobile seven footers.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Agreed, Utah has a lot of size for anyone. Celts are a bit more vulnerable than most with TL out, as they play a lot of minutes with Horford and Grant out there as the two bigs, and while Muscala and Kornet have size they are not very physical. This was the thesis for Poeltl, of course....and it is fair to note it is only certain matchups which create the challenge.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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The play was to Hauser in the corner once the whole frontcourt collapsed on Grant at the rim. He's pressing. It's unfortunate that he's pressing, but shit happens. Not hard to understand why he felt like Superman since he was having such a great night, but damn Grant taking on two at the rim is generally a terrible shot.
I posted the clip in the Postseason worries thread but Hauser's defender did a good job of cutting off the initial passing lane and then GW made his move. Once GW made his move - he said in post-game he wast trying to draw contact - he was more or less committed (although if he had more experience in these situations, he might have used an extra second or two after he jump stopped - 4 seconds left - to see if there was a better shot he could take).
 

Jimbodandy

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I posted the clip in the Postseason worries thread but Hauser's defender did a good job of cutting off the initial passing lane and then GW made his move. Once GW made his move - he said in post-game he wast trying to draw contact - he was more or less committed (although if he had more experience in these situations, he might have used an extra second or two after he jump stopped - 4 seconds left - to see if there was a better shot he could take).
Yeah it probably was unfair of me to expect Grant to make that pass. A more experienced shot creator would generally be aware that since the defense caved on him that Hauser was now open (even if he wasn't open at the jump). Grant is not that experienced shot creator.

A more experienced crunch time player would know that he's not getting to the line even if he initiates the right contact, not with 4 seconds left. So absent a supreme confidence that you can finish at the rim against two larger players despite being a hamster dick taller than the team's point guards, the whole play was kinda dead on the vine. But he had to try something.
 

Euclis20

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For all the woe is us takes over the last few days, the Celtics just had a 4-2 west coast trip, with the two losses by a total of 3 points. The top 8 was healthy and played the entire game until garbage time, and it was something to see. The early season 3 point shooting was an unsustainable hot streak, but when healthy this team is still capable of being top 5 on both ends of the floor while putting out the most versatile lineups in the league.
 

Deathofthebambino

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I mean, Jesus, I'm not usually the rosy optimist about stuff, but it's a looooooong season, and ruts happen. But this team has had almost zero minutes this year with their entire team playing together. Maybe TL never gets there, but every other night, we've got one of Smart or Jaylen or Brogdon or Tatum or Horford out of the lineup. I'd rather go into the playoffs as a healthy #3 seed than a beaten up, broken down #1 seed, but that's just me. This team can play with anyone in the league, otherwise, they wouldn't be going to overtime in games like this, or losing to the Bucks in a nail biter with essentially zero starters playing, the games would be over before that, and for me personally, I don't think they've played the best ball we're going to see from them this year.
I'm standing by what I've been saying all along. If the C's are healthy and don't go completely ice fucking cold for an entire series, they're going to beat anyone.
 

Cellar-Door

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Celtics winning this game by almost 20+ is a BFD. The Kings are legit and I was hoping they'd win by single digits and honestly expected a loss, never mind almost 20+.
I expected a win because it was 5 in 7 days with a lot of travel so Kings were likely to have dead legs late, but this was still a strong performance across the board. Nice coaching adjustment too, picked up Sabonis much higher in the 2nd half, really changed the game.
 

benhogan

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For all the woe is us takes over the last few days, the Celtics just had a 4-2 west coast trip, with the two losses by a total of 3 points. The top 8 was healthy and played the entire game until garbage time, and it was something to see. The early season 3 point shooting was an unsustainable hot streak, but when healthy this team is still capable of being top 5 on both ends of the floor while putting out the most versatile lineups in the league.
I'd like to see Marcus get a few extra nights off, he still isn't moving great on defense

Celtics with 9 games left, only 2 against winning teams, 76ers/Bucks (both on the road).
 

benhogan

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I expected a win because it was 5 in 7 days with a lot of travel so Kings were likely to have dead legs late, but this was still a strong performance across the board. Nice coaching adjustment too, picked up Sabonis much higher in the 2nd half, really changed the game.
Tatum could drive for a layup anytime he wanted. That was not their normal defense. Sac had cement legs
 

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How’s everyone feeling about the 2 seed? Philly’s schedule looks significantly more difficult.
Would feel great about it if Miami could jump to the 6 spot. 2/7 vs Nets while Heat/Sixers beat the shit out of each other would be ideal.
 

RorschachsMask

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Tatum could drive for a layup anytime he wanted. That was not their normal defense. Sac had cement legs
Their defense is pretty crappy with it without cement legs, they are 6th worst in the league.

On the other hand, their offense is really fun to watch though.
 
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Fishy1

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Despite their average-ish W/L record, BOS has been top 5 in ORtg DRtg and NRtg for some time now.

They are currently 4 / 4 / 2.
Until the bad stretch they had the best NTRG in the league. Only .3 back of Cleveland now (5.7), and .4 ahead of Philadelphia (5.0), and from there, the drop-off is huge, to 3.8 (the Nuggets, Grizzlies, and Bucks). After that, the drop-off is another full point to the Knicks and Kings, and then it's another full point to Phoenix/OKC.

Last year, FWIW, they were tied for best in the league with Phoenix for +7.5. GSW were 5.6, tied for third best with the Grizz.

This team is having a great regular season, and had a great road trip after a shaky stretch. Would also note that certain parties have suddenly gotten silent about the long-posited demise of Derrick White's three-point shot...
 

HomeRunBaker

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This team is having a great regular season, and had a great road trip after a shaky stretch. Would also note that certain parties have suddenly gotten silent about the long-posited demise of Derrick White's three-point shot...
White went through the same sub-30% month/stretch back in December too. Both time it followed an unsustainable period of hitting close to 45%. Like the Celtics losing some games after beginning on a 63-win pace these things are normal regression as Derrick White isn’t likely to shoot 45% from three on a consistent basis. He’s also been streaky since adding this much volume since joining the Celtics if you remember the end of last year too.
 

the moops

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Their defense is pretty crappy with it without cement legs, they are 6th worst in the league.

On the other hand, their offense is really fun to watch though.
Yea, they give up a ton of points in the paint. And while they look good at times because of how athletic they are, they are a pretty terrible defense
 

Fishy1

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White went through the same sub-30% month/stretch back in December too. Both time it followed an unsustainable period of hitting close to 45%. Like the Celtics losing some games after beginning on a 63-win pace these things are normal regression as Derrick White isn’t likely to shoot 45% from three on a consistent basis. He’s also been streaky since adding this much volume since joining the Celtics if you remember the end of last year too.
I'm just teasing you. He's having a good year from three for him, and I'm happy about it. So far he's avoided cratering like he did last year, and that's a good thing. I think we can both agree on that. ;)
 

HomeRunBaker

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I'm just teasing you. He's having a good year from three for him, and I'm happy about it. So far he's avoided cratering like he did last year, and that's a good thing. I think we can both agree on that. ;)
I thought you were serious because he was in a 3-point shooting funk up until a few days ago.
 

benhogan

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White went through the same sub-30% month/stretch back in December too. Both time it followed an unsustainable period of hitting close to 45%. Like the Celtics losing some games after beginning on a 63-win pace these things are normal regression as Derrick White isn’t likely to shoot 45% from three on a consistent basis. He’s also been streaky since adding this much volume since joining the Celtics if you remember the end of last year too.
Thats fair. I don't think anyone thought White was a 45% sniper and your variance observation week 1 was a good call there.
BUT there was pushback on White improving his stroke with Ben Sullivan over the summer. I don't think we should conflate the two seasons in regard to White, he's a 38% 3pt shooter on decent volume now as opposed to last season's 31% 3pt shooter

More importantly.... Derrick White, ROLE PLAYER, is pure heresy with 60 starts :eek:

White is probably their 3rd most well-rounded offensive/defensive player. Guys like Grant & Hauser are high-end role players, DW isn't that.
 

chilidawg

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Thats fair. I don't think anyone thought White was a 45% sniper and your variance observation week 1 was a good call there.
BUT there was pushback on White improving his stroke with Ben Sullivan over the summer. I don't think we should conflate the two seasons in regard to White, he's a 38% 3pt shooter on decent volume now as opposed to last season's 31% 3pt shooter

More importantly.... Derrick White, ROLE PLAYER, is pure heresy with 60 starts :eek:

White is probably their 3rd most well-rounded offensive/defensive player. Guys like Grant & Hauser are high-end role players, DW isn't that.
More of a roll player. I'll roll with DW any day.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Thats fair. I don't think anyone thought White was a 45% sniper and your variance observation week 1 was a good call there.
BUT there was pushback on White improving his stroke with Ben Sullivan over the summer. I don't think we should conflate the two seasons in regard to White, he's a 38% 3pt shooter on decent volume now as opposed to last season's 31% 3pt shooter

More importantly.... Derrick White, ROLE PLAYER, is pure heresy with 60 starts :eek:

White is probably their 3rd most well-rounded offensive/defensive player. Guys like Grant & Hauser are high-end role players, DW isn't that.
You can be a starter and a role player. After Tatum and Jaylen, every other players crunch time minutes should, and I’m guessing will, be predicated on matchups and matchup advantages. White re-entered with over 7 min to go in the 4Q for Brogdon as he’s better suited to chase 3-pt shooters around the perimeter and keep Fox in front of him. There will never be a “set” closing lineup from game to game with this team nor should there be. Last night was a better spot for White over Brogdon, we ended up not needing it.
 

the moops

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There will never be a “set” closing lineup from game to game with this team nor should there be. Last night was a better spot for White over Brogdon, we ended up not needing it.
Agreed. We still can argue that we think White should have played in the 4th the other night and most definitely should have been in there instead of Grant considering the play they ran
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Agreed. We still can argue that we think White should have played in the 4th the other night and most definitely should have been in there instead of Grant considering the play they ran
I wonder how much of GW being the ballhandler on that play was, and I'm not exactly sure how to put it, to see how GW might react in that particular situation. DW was the ballhandler when they ran the play against HOU.

Maybe I'm just hallucinating but it seems like a lot of what JMazz does is an attempt to get the Cs ready for a long playoff run.
 

benhogan

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You can be a starter and a role player. After Tatum and Jaylen, every other players crunch time minutes should, and I’m guessing will, be predicated on matchups and matchup advantages. White re-entered with over 7 min to go in the 4Q for Brogdon as he’s better suited to chase 3-pt shooters around the perimeter and keep Fox in front of him. There will never be a “set” closing lineup from game to game with this team nor should there be. Last night was a better spot for White over Brogdon, we ended up not needing it.
CJM admitted he was wrong the other night about White's usage. Joe doesn't really play the Coach Speak game, pretty no-nonsense. I'm not sure there is much to debate and has nothing to do with Malcolm Brogdon. When on offense you make the opponent match up with you, not the other way around. Plus Malcolm + Derrick can co-exist together defensively since both are decent rebounding guards. If Utah starts feeding guys on the block, trying to back White/Brogdon down to attempt a contested 2 you've already won.

I know any kind of Smart slander is criminal around here BUT going forward we want White playing high-leverage minutes over a gimpy Smart (OR until Marcus gets healed)
 

Euclis20

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I wonder how much of GW being the ballhandler on that play was, and I'm not exactly sure how to put it, to see how GW might react in that particular situation. DW was the ballhandler when they ran the play against HOU.

Maybe I'm just hallucinating but it seems like a lot of what JMazz does is an attempt to get the Cs ready for a long playoff run.
Yeah it's not hard to squint as these decisions and come to that conclusion, but the problem is we don't really know if CJM is preparing the team for a long playoff run, or if he's just making mistakes because he's a 34 year old rookie HC. We're all really hoping it's that first one. It wouldn't be at all unprecedented for a first year HC to win a title, but he is especially young. Nurse and Kerr won titles in their first seasons, but they were 50 and 49, respectively.
 

nighthob

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White is probably their 3rd most well-rounded offensive/defensive player. Guys like Grant & Hauser are high-end role players, DW isn't that.
Sam Hauser is the opposite of a high end role player. He’s cruft. Every roster has that guy and they’re all easily replaceable.
 

Euclis20

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To me, a role player is anyone with a specific and useful role AND could potentially (but not definitely) be on the floor in crunch time. On the Celtics, Tatum/Brown (and Smart) are the only players that, when healthy, are guaranteed to be on the floor at the end of close games. Horford, TL, Grant, Brogdon and White are all high end roleplayers (maybe White and Smart should switch places, but the Celtics don't seem to think so) on the 2023 Celtics. Hauser is probably the very next guy given his shooting (and his ability to get off a good look without much space, compared to Pritchard), but high end role players don't routinely play < 10 minutes. He's a situational guy, and will likely go entire playoff games without seeing the court.
 

Deathofthebambino

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You can be a starter and a role player. After Tatum and Jaylen, every other players crunch time minutes should, and I’m guessing will, be predicated on matchups and matchup advantages. White re-entered with over 7 min to go in the 4Q for Brogdon as he’s better suited to chase 3-pt shooters around the perimeter and keep Fox in front of him. There will never be a “set” closing lineup from game to game with this team nor should there be. Last night was a better spot for White over Brogdon, we ended up not needing it.
I don't see the decision as being White in crunch time over Brogdon or vice versa. I think the discussion is really centering around White vs. Smart in crunch time. Smart makes some big time plays (the two offensive fouls he drew the other night being an example), but with this version of Smart, I have to squeeze my eyes pretty tight to see a matchup where he's a better option than White.

I think in crunch time the decisions become whether you have Al and TL on the court together, and if you don't, then it becomes which of the 3 guards. For my money, I want White/Brogdon/Tatum/JB and one of Al/TL depending on matchup.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I don't see the decision as being White in crunch time over Brogdon or vice versa. I think the discussion is really centering around White vs. Smart in crunch time. Smart makes some big time plays (the two offensive fouls he drew the other night being an example), but with this version of Smart, I have to squeeze my eyes pretty tight to see a matchup where he's a better option than White.

I think in crunch time the decisions become whether you have Al and TL on the court together, and if you don't, then it becomes which of the 3 guards. For my money, I want White/Brogdon/Tatum/JB and one of Al/TL depending on matchup.
Many nights you can have both Smart and White closing out the game. In Utah, we couldn’t go with Tatum and Jaylen as the 3/4 with their size but last night we could so it was White who came in for Brogdon and paired with Smart. I know many of you guys hate seeing Smart out there down the stretch but with the offense centered around Tatum and Jaylen at that point in the game, the substitution patterns for the rest of the lineup are going to be based off the defensive matchups…..which is why Smart is always going to be on the floor in these moments.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Many nights you can have both Smart and White closing out the game. In Utah, we couldn’t go with Tatum and Jaylen as the 3/4 with their size but last night we could so it was White who came in for Brogdon and paired with Smart. I know many of you guys hate seeing Smart out there down the stretch but with the offense centered around Tatum and Jaylen at that point in the game, the substitution patterns for the rest of the lineup are going to be based off the defensive matchups…..which is why Smart is always going to be on the floor in these moments.
I don't think anyone would disagree with that if we were getting DPOY Marcus Smart. The current, coming off injury, slower, fouling more Marcus just doesn't seem to me as such a huge improvement on the defensive end over Brogdon/White, as to outweigh what you're giving up on the offensive end when Tatum and Brown get swallowed up and have to kick out to an open man (which inevitably feels like it'll be Smart when it matters most).
 

HomeRunBaker

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I don't think anyone would disagree with that if we were getting DPOY Marcus Smart. The current, coming off injury, slower, fouling more Marcus just doesn't seem to me as such a huge improvement on the defensive end over Brogdon/White, as to outweigh what you're giving up on the offensive end when Tatum and Brown get swallowed up and have to kick out to an open man (which inevitably feels like it'll be Smart when it matters most).
I’m a Brogdon guy so I get it but unless Smart is physically compromised he’s the better defensive player and that’s always going to be the priority.
 

Smokey Joe

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I don't think anyone would disagree with that if we were getting DPOY Marcus Smart. The current, coming off injury, slower, fouling more Marcus just doesn't seem to me as such a huge improvement on the defensive end over Brogdon/White, as to outweigh what you're giving up on the offensive end when Tatum and Brown get swallowed up and have to kick out to an open man (which inevitably feels like it'll be Smart when it matters most).
When you’re doing a switch defense, Marcus can switch up and handle bigger players much better then Brogdon/White.
 

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Fun stat:
The Celtics now have a better record (9-2) against the top 3 teams in the West and the two other top 3 teams in the East (i.e. Nuggets, Memphis, Sacramento, Milwaukee, and Philly) than they do against the 5 worst teams in the league (Detroit, Houston, San Antonio, Charlotte and Orlando).
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Yeah it's not hard to squint as these decisions and come to that conclusion, but the problem is we don't really know if CJM is preparing the team for a long playoff run, or if he's just making mistakes because he's a 34 year old rookie HC. We're all really hoping it's that first one. It wouldn't be at all unprecedented for a first year HC to win a title, but he is especially young. Nurse and Kerr won titles in their first seasons, but they were 50 and 49, respectively.
I just finished watching the UT and SAC game and boy what a difference there was. I'm not saying JMazz wasn't trying to win the game but he certainly gave chances to players that he won't be doing in the playoffs (end of 3Q play with JB throwing the ball in to Hauser plus GW in the ballhandler role at the end?).

SAC - JMazz stuck to BOS's top 8 guys (was this the first time he's done this) and boy did BOS look a lot different. I'm sure the 2 days off helped but I thought they really got after it defensively and Horford in particular looked pretty good out on the perimeter.

Hopefully TL can stay healthy for three months. Is that too much to ask? :)
 

HomeRunBaker

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I just finished watching the UT and SAC game and boy what a difference there was. I'm not saying JMazz wasn't trying to win the game but he certainly gave chances to players that he won't be doing in the playoffs (end of 3Q play with JB throwing the ball in to Hauser plus GW in the ballhandler role at the end?).

SAC - JMazz stuck to BOS's top 8 guys (was this the first time he's done this) and boy did BOS look a lot different. I'm sure the 2 days off helped but I thought they really got after it defensively and Horford in particular looked pretty good out on the perimeter.

Hopefully TL can stay healthy for three months. Is that too much to ask? :)
2 days off prior to Sacramento and also two scheduled days off following that game. It was essentially playoff scheduling so no real need to not play your best players heavy minutes. TL just changes everything for this team.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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2 days off prior to Sacramento and also two scheduled days off following that game. It was essentially playoff scheduling so no real need to not play your best players heavy minutes. TL just changes everything for this team.
I suspect a lot of pre-game preparation was like a playoff game as well given how good SAC has been this year.

My main point was how good BOS looked on the defensive end with their top 8 after not really being there since the ASB (12th in DRtg in the league). Maybe that had a bit to do with SAC's tired legs but to my eyes, it didn't look like SAC got the open looks that BOS gave up against UT, MIN (particularly), and HOU.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I suspect a lot of pre-game preparation was like a playoff game as well given how good SAC has been this year.

My main point was how good BOS looked on the defensive end with their top 8 after not really being there since the ASB (12th in DRtg in the league). Maybe that had a bit to do with SAC's tired legs but to my eyes, it didn't look like SAC got the open looks that BOS gave up against UT, MIN (particularly), and HOU.
Especially coming off a loss. We’ve had a couple games like that recently and won both comfortable with solid sustained efforts. Nobody will remember the Houston game in May.
 

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When you’re doing a switch defense, Marcus can switch up and handle bigger players much better then Brogdon/White.
Yes.

Marcus, Brogdon, White is a great problem to have because they bring different skills but have a lot of crossover. Sure, White does most of what Marcus does on defense, but he'll get ragdolled by big guards, nevermind beefy wings and bigs. Brogdon has a much higher top-end on offense in creating for himself or others, but he's weaker than the other two on defense by a lot. Marcus isn't as quick though, so smaller, faster guards can get by him better than White.

tl;dr; In general the problem isn't White vs. Marcus vs. Brogdon. That's marginal stuff. I mean, we can criticize of course but we're talking marginal improvements. The griping around Grant vs. White was excessive but understandable.
 

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The Marcus v. DW & MB is an interesting thought exercise, but if we're being honest here who among us, Joe Mazulla, Brad, or anyone else is going to tell Marcus F'N Smart that he's sitting in crunch-time? If the dude has two functional legs he's going to be in every single crunch-time scenario from now until they win the championship or get knocked out.
 

lovegtm

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The Marcus v. DW & MB is an interesting thought exercise, but if we're being honest here who among us, Joe Mazulla, Brad, or anyone else is going to tell Marcus F'N Smart that he's sitting in crunch-time? If the dude has two functional legs he's going to be in every single crunch-time scenario from now until they win the championship or get knocked out.
I mean...the coach is going to tell him that? Or the GM? That's kinda their job, and DWhite has really been elevating his game this year.