Well, I'm definitely pulling for Brian Tyms to make this roster. Finally, a young receiver I like.
2014 Binkywagon Thread: Eck's binky wins a truck
- Thread starter SeoulSoxFan
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I'm still on the FInch Binkywagon.
The mistakes are correctable and the shiftiness was there. The way BB came right over and spoke to him seemed like a gesture that says Finch is going to get more chances moving forward.
The mistakes are correctable and the shiftiness was there. The way BB came right over and spoke to him seemed like a gesture that says Finch is going to get more chances moving forward.
Man, I'm just repeating other people but I have to add to the JG love. I think that even accounting for the poor competition, he showed a lot:
-Quick release: This was the main thing that stuck out when I watched his scouting video and it's still there. He got the ball out. I think that this is really key and bodes well for playing against better competition.
-Accuracy: Put the ball where his receiver could get it. They didn't always get it but I don't remember a bad throw. The arced passes looked really special as well -- it requires such timing to loft a ball in there as he did on both the long throws and one or two shorter ones.
-Decisions: They may have just instructed him to look only at his first read or something similarly simple, but you didn't see him holding onto the ball excessively.
-Pocket awareness: The protection was there (against WAS's backups), so this largely wasn't tested, but escaping the pocket to extend the play at the goal line was a slick little play -- it looked like he was getting sacked there. I'm eager to see if he would do the same on a first down at midfield or throw the ball away / take the sack since the situation is less important, or if he is going to try to extend plays unnecessarily like a Favre, which can lead to trouble.
-Two-minute drill: Brady is so good at running the drill that I think we take this for granted, but it always blows my mind how other QBs / teams can let time run off and just run sloppy plays on their two-minute drills. Certainly they weren't winning the game so the urgency wasn't there, but JG looked fine organizing the offense post-play.
Finally, he supposedly needed to adjust his footwork to the dropback, having been in a shotgun most of college, but that didn't seem like an issue last night.
In no way am I a scout or expert but it's hard to not be really encouraged by JG yesterday.
-Quick release: This was the main thing that stuck out when I watched his scouting video and it's still there. He got the ball out. I think that this is really key and bodes well for playing against better competition.
-Accuracy: Put the ball where his receiver could get it. They didn't always get it but I don't remember a bad throw. The arced passes looked really special as well -- it requires such timing to loft a ball in there as he did on both the long throws and one or two shorter ones.
-Decisions: They may have just instructed him to look only at his first read or something similarly simple, but you didn't see him holding onto the ball excessively.
-Pocket awareness: The protection was there (against WAS's backups), so this largely wasn't tested, but escaping the pocket to extend the play at the goal line was a slick little play -- it looked like he was getting sacked there. I'm eager to see if he would do the same on a first down at midfield or throw the ball away / take the sack since the situation is less important, or if he is going to try to extend plays unnecessarily like a Favre, which can lead to trouble.
-Two-minute drill: Brady is so good at running the drill that I think we take this for granted, but it always blows my mind how other QBs / teams can let time run off and just run sloppy plays on their two-minute drills. Certainly they weren't winning the game so the urgency wasn't there, but JG looked fine organizing the offense post-play.
Finally, he supposedly needed to adjust his footwork to the dropback, having been in a shotgun most of college, but that didn't seem like an issue last night.
In no way am I a scout or expert but it's hard to not be really encouraged by JG yesterday.
JG was encouraging. The moment of his first nfl experience wasn't too big for him and he looked relaxed. I don't know how much that means but I think it mean something.
I want to also join the Zach Moore bandwagon. He only showed up once or twice but I didn't realize how big he was. I know he is raw and a long shot but having a huge DE to play across from Jones or to move inside on 3rd downs would be a fantastic addition to the defense. Especially once Easley is on the field.
I want to also join the Zach Moore bandwagon. He only showed up once or twice but I didn't realize how big he was. I know he is raw and a long shot but having a huge DE to play across from Jones or to move inside on 3rd downs would be a fantastic addition to the defense. Especially once Easley is on the field.
No one is adopting Kanoris "No Helmet, No Problem" Davis?
At the very least, he became a Patriot Training Camp Legend last night with the helmetless tackle. Even if he doesn't make the team, he will be on film forever as an example of "what some guys will do to make this team".
And I hope some coach gave him the Lou Brown afterward: "Nice play Davis. Don't ever fuckin do it again."
At the very least, he became a Patriot Training Camp Legend last night with the helmetless tackle. Even if he doesn't make the team, he will be on film forever as an example of "what some guys will do to make this team".
And I hope some coach gave him the Lou Brown afterward: "Nice play Davis. Don't ever fuckin do it again."
soxfan121 said:
I think Davis has a real shot to make the squad - he replaced Marquice Cole when they cut him late last season, and Cole was one of the gunners.
Super Nomario said:
I think Davis has a real shot to make the squad - he replaced Marquice Cole when they cut him late last season, and Cole was one of the gunners.
Uh, how the hell is that not a penalty? He was both held and blocked in the back 3 feet away from a referee. Still, awesome effort.
Glad to see Garoppolo showcase his touch. He has the most consistent and accurate deep ball down the sideline of any QB I've covered.
Very, very interesting. Ben Volin was on T&R on 98.5 this morning and was asked about Tyms' chances of making the roster, and said that they were surprisingly better than you might expect -- said he remembered Tyms as a prospect from the Dolphins, that he has the longest arms of a WR he has ever seen, that the team loves his height and speed, and that all you can really ask of a WR late in last nights game was to make plays, and he made a awful lot of them.lambeau said:
As lambeau says, Tyms is suspended for the first 4 games of the 2014 season -- for unknown reasons -- so he doesn't have to make the 53-man, only the... 56-man? (Plus Browner, Dobson?).
I know it's written this way, but it's basically impossible to read this profile about Tyms from 2012 and not end up pulling extremely hard for the kid:
http://m.sfgate.com/49ers/article/Rookie-wideout-Tyms-runs-toward-future-3791826.php
To get completely and utterly carried away (although isn't that the point of the thread?), last nights performance reminded me a little of that preseason game (in 2010?) where Victor Cruz -- then a UDFA -- went nuts for the Giants.
The awareness he showed on the play that should have been a TD was amazing. An eye opening performance last night for sure. He's definitely on my must watch list for the remainder of the preseason.
Have to add to the Garoppolo love. Mallett couldnt seem to get it going and in the first half I thought the team around him was playing a big factor. But then JG stepped in and everything seemed to change. His numbers werent outstanding but first of all he didnt look lost (which is a great first sign) and the offense seemed to be functioning with him in there which wasnt the case with Mallett.
In terms of his incompletions that I remember, I thought the pass to Jones wasnt perfect but certainly catchable. The wheel pass to Finch was a little rushed but right on target, having this type of 'mistake' from a rookie is really phenomenal if you ask me. I forget which one but I believe one of the Tyms incompletions was catchable as well. If those were complete he would be 11 for 13 which is a very, very impressive debut. He also seemed to make Tyms look like a #1 receiver
As far as other guys go:
- Tyms was impressive, I think he is pushing Boyce for a roster spot and if the decision was just based on this game then I think Boyce is the one getting cut
- Finch showed some potential but the dropsies need to be addressed, it looked like he had terrible ball security
- Vince Wilfork - has me a little worried. I know that he is coming back from injury and its early, but he seemed as though he wasnt really pushing his blockers, and he certainly didnt seem to have the power to push 2 blockers like we are accustomed to seeing when he is at the top of his game. Again, its early but I think this bears watching
- Kelly seemed to look decent which seems to be a promising sign given the ACL injury
- White I was hoping to see a little more out of him because of the rave reviews he was getting in practice
- Beauharnais looked like a poor mans, inexperienced Mayo. Seemed to man the middle and there was one play where he engaged the guard, held his own, and then detached from him to make the tackle. That was impressive. He seems to have some promise
- James Anderson is another guy I was hoping to see more of. He didnt stand out to me but maybe I missed something
- Browner looked the part of a mauling CB but I do wonder how his skills will translate with the new 'emphasis' BS
In terms of his incompletions that I remember, I thought the pass to Jones wasnt perfect but certainly catchable. The wheel pass to Finch was a little rushed but right on target, having this type of 'mistake' from a rookie is really phenomenal if you ask me. I forget which one but I believe one of the Tyms incompletions was catchable as well. If those were complete he would be 11 for 13 which is a very, very impressive debut. He also seemed to make Tyms look like a #1 receiver
As far as other guys go:
- Tyms was impressive, I think he is pushing Boyce for a roster spot and if the decision was just based on this game then I think Boyce is the one getting cut
- Finch showed some potential but the dropsies need to be addressed, it looked like he had terrible ball security
- Vince Wilfork - has me a little worried. I know that he is coming back from injury and its early, but he seemed as though he wasnt really pushing his blockers, and he certainly didnt seem to have the power to push 2 blockers like we are accustomed to seeing when he is at the top of his game. Again, its early but I think this bears watching
- Kelly seemed to look decent which seems to be a promising sign given the ACL injury
- White I was hoping to see a little more out of him because of the rave reviews he was getting in practice
- Beauharnais looked like a poor mans, inexperienced Mayo. Seemed to man the middle and there was one play where he engaged the guard, held his own, and then detached from him to make the tackle. That was impressive. He seems to have some promise
- James Anderson is another guy I was hoping to see more of. He didnt stand out to me but maybe I missed something
- Browner looked the part of a mauling CB but I do wonder how his skills will translate with the new 'emphasis' BS
wutang112878 said:
He was 9/13 for 157 yards and a touchdown, I'd say those numbers are outstanding for his first NFL action.
Stitch01 said:
Ditto on the run game. In the passing game I couldnt tell if he wasnt putting in full effort or was tentative because of the injury, but it just didnt seem like he was trying to push the opponent to the ground.
Also, I thought I read that he lost some weight, but my eyes didnt see it. I was hoping he did because that would obviously help the comeback.
NortheasternPJ said:
Right, and I touched on how he might have been 11 for 13 without some dropsies which would have been amazing
I'm on the Tyms 'wagon. As mentioned, he's got size which the team is lacking in the WR corps. He also seems to run good routes (good enough to JG to keep going to him), he ran a few 10 yd outs with success. Now, the question is whether he runs them well enough to get on the same page as #12.
wutang112878 said:
NortheasternPJ said:
I agree with NEPJ, GP's numbers were outstanding.
wutang112878 said:
Except you stated that his numbers weren't outstanding. Without some dropsies, his numbers would have been Bradyesque.
Eck'sSneakyCheese said:
Yes, thanks for bringing that up. I think that play speaks volumes.
Also, he created space nicely between himself and the defender on the TD at the end without a) slowing down, or b) drawing a flag, ending up with a seemingly easy catch in the end zone. I can see a lot of other guys screwing that up.
I think this preseason game is a perfect illustration as to why we shouldn't put much stock into training camp reports. It's fun to pop internet boners every day when reading the new latest/greatest players in Pats camp, but more often then not, the reports are either flat out wrong or manufactured by teams/agents.
Ryan Mallet (Training Camp): "I was blown away today. I saw a legitimate NFL starting quarterback today backing up Tom Brady," Mayock said after Monday's scrimmage versus the Redskins. "So as the season progresses and we get closer to draft time and what the Patriots can or can't do with him, I think they drafted Jimmy Garoppolo for a reason, as an insurance policy. But trust me, Ryan Mallet's a starting quarterback in this league, and he popped today." - Mike Mayock
Ryan Mallet (preseason game #1): 5/12, 55 yards, 55.9 passer rating. Reminiscent of the same player we've seen for the past 4 preseasons (wildly inaccurate, little pocket presence, etc).
Justine Jones (Training Camp): 6'8 raw tight end? "Gronk part two! WHOOOOOOOOOO!"
Justin Jones (preseason game #1): "Hey, wasn't that Sudfield guy kinda tall too?"
James White (Training Camp): "The Patriots simply do not swoon over rookies. That said, running back James White has gotten rave reviews thus far in training camp from the likes of Tom Brady, Bill Belichick and even a few of his fellow running backs who are vying with him for playing time. The 5-10, 205-pound White, who racked up 4,015 yards rushing and 45 touchdowns as a Wisconsin Badger before New England selected him in the fourth round, is thought to be pushing veteran Stevan Ridley for a starting backfield assignment and the Patriots are using him in a variety of ways, including on third downs, in goal-line situations, and in blitz pick-up. Through the first two weeks of workouts, White has been as impressive as any offensive rookie this side of Sammy Watkins and Brandin Cooks." - SI.com
James White (preseason game #1): 13th running back taken in the draft (4th round). 4 carries, 9 yards, 2.3 YPC.
Jimmy Garoppolo (Training Camp): "It will be a while before Jimmy Garoppolo plays his first meaningful NFL snap, if all goes as planned, and after watching Friday’s training camp practice, that’s best for all parties involved. The New England Patriots rookie quarterback struggled in his second career training camp practice, completing 3 of 7 passes in 11-on-11s and going 3 of 8 in 7-on-7s. Garoppolo also threw two interceptions in team drills — one to linebacker Chris White without a wide receiver in sight. White didn’t have to move to pull in the errant pass. Garoppolo still seems to be having trouble going through his reads quickly, and it’s taking him an eternity to get rid of the ball at times." - NESN
Jimmy Garoppolo (preseason game #1): 9/13, 157 yards, 1 TD, 135.7 QB rating. Quick release, accurate passes, solid poise in pocket.
Logan Ryan (Training Camp): off-season training partner with Darrelle Revis, high praise given throughout training camp, expected to compete for starting CB slot opposide Revis.
Logan Ryan (preseason game #1): Yikes.
With that said, I understand the irony of using 1 preseason game as a barometer while dismissing training camp entirely. But I think last nights game is a great illustration on why we have to be aware of getting caught up in the training camp and preseason chatter.
Ryan Mallet (Training Camp): "I was blown away today. I saw a legitimate NFL starting quarterback today backing up Tom Brady," Mayock said after Monday's scrimmage versus the Redskins. "So as the season progresses and we get closer to draft time and what the Patriots can or can't do with him, I think they drafted Jimmy Garoppolo for a reason, as an insurance policy. But trust me, Ryan Mallet's a starting quarterback in this league, and he popped today." - Mike Mayock
Ryan Mallet (preseason game #1): 5/12, 55 yards, 55.9 passer rating. Reminiscent of the same player we've seen for the past 4 preseasons (wildly inaccurate, little pocket presence, etc).
Justine Jones (Training Camp): 6'8 raw tight end? "Gronk part two! WHOOOOOOOOOO!"
Justin Jones (preseason game #1): "Hey, wasn't that Sudfield guy kinda tall too?"
James White (Training Camp): "The Patriots simply do not swoon over rookies. That said, running back James White has gotten rave reviews thus far in training camp from the likes of Tom Brady, Bill Belichick and even a few of his fellow running backs who are vying with him for playing time. The 5-10, 205-pound White, who racked up 4,015 yards rushing and 45 touchdowns as a Wisconsin Badger before New England selected him in the fourth round, is thought to be pushing veteran Stevan Ridley for a starting backfield assignment and the Patriots are using him in a variety of ways, including on third downs, in goal-line situations, and in blitz pick-up. Through the first two weeks of workouts, White has been as impressive as any offensive rookie this side of Sammy Watkins and Brandin Cooks." - SI.com
James White (preseason game #1): 13th running back taken in the draft (4th round). 4 carries, 9 yards, 2.3 YPC.
Jimmy Garoppolo (Training Camp): "It will be a while before Jimmy Garoppolo plays his first meaningful NFL snap, if all goes as planned, and after watching Friday’s training camp practice, that’s best for all parties involved. The New England Patriots rookie quarterback struggled in his second career training camp practice, completing 3 of 7 passes in 11-on-11s and going 3 of 8 in 7-on-7s. Garoppolo also threw two interceptions in team drills — one to linebacker Chris White without a wide receiver in sight. White didn’t have to move to pull in the errant pass. Garoppolo still seems to be having trouble going through his reads quickly, and it’s taking him an eternity to get rid of the ball at times." - NESN
Jimmy Garoppolo (preseason game #1): 9/13, 157 yards, 1 TD, 135.7 QB rating. Quick release, accurate passes, solid poise in pocket.
Logan Ryan (Training Camp): off-season training partner with Darrelle Revis, high praise given throughout training camp, expected to compete for starting CB slot opposide Revis.
Logan Ryan (preseason game #1): Yikes.
With that said, I understand the irony of using 1 preseason game as a barometer while dismissing training camp entirely. But I think last nights game is a great illustration on why we have to be aware of getting caught up in the training camp and preseason chatter.
It's being replayed on NFL Network today at 4p if you get that. (I have my DVR set)Tony C said:hell, I didn't even see the game (out of market) but just from reading this thread I'm fully only on the Tyms/JG bandwagons....Love it, fun part of PS is can let the enthusiasm flags fly.
MalzoneExpress said:
Yeah, I really mispoke. This is what happens when I post before I finish my coffee. I went on to gush all over him but said he wasnt impressive, a big -1 for me
SeoulSoxFan said:
Interestingly, I think Finch may be fighting for a roster spot with Boyce (someone has to be the primary KR). So I think Boyce is the beneficiary of Finch's struggle to hang on to the football.
Stitch01 said:
Agreed. it's really hard to judge a RB by his numbers, particularly when his (second string) o-line was getting worked over a bit.
Kenny F'ing Powers said:
While acknowledging the one preseason game barometer caution, what I find so exciting about what we saw in Garoppolo yesterday is that we now know that there are certain critical things that he can do. Specifically, the pocket work, quick decision making and quick release were all key. Sure, he'll face better defenses if he plays in real games and we don't know how good he will be, but at minimum, we know that he at least can perform some of the crucial aspects of the quarterback position.
Tebow, for example, while a great athlete never got this far in his development as an NFL QB. We've seen a sea change recently from the fetishization of athletic QBs (although the read option is becoming interesting) to emphasizing things like getting the ball off quickly while maintaining good decisions and accuracy. Garoppolo has that latter ability, which means there's a ton of potential there.
Shelterdog said:
I was wondering about this while watching the game. Like, how do evaluate players when you're running tryouts for multiple positions that will in turn influence the performance of others?
Like, in crew, if you want to compare two rowers you have them each row for a spot with the same other seven rowers. Evaluating a running back playing behind an offensive line that are themselves running tryouts, for example, seems difficult.
Reverend said:
I think this answer is that's why BB and Ozzie makes the big bucks and that's why NFL teams fuck up evaluations so much. It's just hard to evaluate talent.
As an aside I think they may have had Wendell play the second half as a kind of "seat race" for the back-up QB job. Connolly plays the first half and Wendell the second so both Mallett and JG had the advantage of an experienced center to help with line calls: you wouldn't want Mallett to have somebody good and JG to have, say, Braxton Cave.
This is true to some extent, but on the other hand there are things you learn about a RB running behind a shitty line that you can't learn about him running behind a good one. How does he handle penetration in the backfield? Does he know when to just cut upfield and turn a four-yard-loss into a one-yard-loss, or does he keep going for the corner and suffer a huge loss? Does he maintain good ball security when he's getting swarmed? How is his vision when the hole is smaller than expected or not exactly where it's supposed to be? Matt Waldman often talks about how much Matt Forte impressed him with his ability to turn losses into gains running behind a lousy line at Tulane: http://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2013/12/09/rsp-flashback-overrated-mcfaddenjones-underrated-forte/. On the other hand we've seen guys like Mark Ingram and Trent Richardson who looked awesome behind dominant college lines that haven't translated that to the pro game.Reverend said:
I think any time you're talking about a small sample of player in general, you're not going to get to get evaluate everything. You can only evaluate what happens. That's why practice is so important - you can set up drills or situations to test or teach a broader range of skills.
That's an intriguing approach. Also, it might mean that watching them behind crappy lines would be more important for someone like Belichick who seems to value minimizing quantity of failure as much as or more than maximizing quantity of success, e.g. give up yards but don't get beat over the top.
As far as I was concerned Tyms came out of no where. I hadn't noticed his pickup, I hadn't heard 2 words about him (or registered the words I did hear?), nothing. I loved the separation. I loved the ability to fight the hand checking down the sideline. I loved the concentration on the disallowed touchdown to bring the ball in when his jersey was being dragged from behind. I love that he is tall with long arms with speed. That combination can be deadly if the receiver knows how to use it - and it appears he does.TomTerrific said:
I just don't know who he bumps... but if he keeps this up I could see him becoming a favorite deep threat for Brady... a la Moss (and no I am not making that comparison). It's just that they've searched for a receiver in that role for a while and a reliable/consistent/healthy/non-felony committing threat hasn't really presented itself.
I'll now take a few deep breaths and see if he can do this for the remainder of pre-season - and with more QBs than just JG (who also impressed the hell out of me).
He just doesn't seem to get a lot of consistent separation, and sure plays slower then that 4.3 40 time he ran.
Injuries may change this whole WR game completely though. I didn't know about Tyms being suspended, but it almost actually works in NE's favor - he can't practice with the team but he can get more comfortable with a difficult playbook, at least, and they get four more weeks to make a decision on him.
Kenny F'ing Powers said:
I get overly hyped about a lot of binkies but for Tyms but it's just one game. Plus, there weren't that many reports of him getting top reps nor standing out.
Having said that, Thompkins seemed to come out of the blue last year and if Tyms can beat out Boyce or some other end of the line WR good for him.
Super Nomario said:
I think Davis has a real shot to make the squad - he replaced Marquice Cole when they cut him late last season, and Cole was one of the gunners.
That is one of the most insane things I have ever seen.
Reading this (semi-irrational) exuberance every year should be a patented SoSH past-time. I love it. Rooting for Tyms too. In the 1 in 500000000000000000000 chance he works out and is the reincarnation of Randy Moss or w/e it makes the experience even more enjoyable.
Ya know... I specifically said I wasn't making the comparison... and then went on to say that I think the way Tyms played this one game made me think of someone in that reliable vertical role... I dunno how (in a binky thread no less) I could have conveyed those thoughts without generating a condescending comment from someone.Kenny F'ing Powers said:
You are usually a thoughtful commenter about football, having posted many an item I have learned from. Did someone take YOUR binky that you had to come into the binky thread to be condescending? I hope the rest of the night is better for you - and genuinely look forward to your future thoughtful posts (football or otherwise).
My post was beyond semi-irrational... but it was exuberant. Thanks for giving us the benefit of the doubt though! I think the odds are a little longer on Tyms being that good unfortunately... but I'll keep my fingers crossed none-the-less.SMU_Sox said:
Right. While it's important to remember the Tyms was out there against 2nd and 3rd stringers, and that he's most likely NOT the second coming of Randy, we don't need a Randy Moss--we just need a credible deep threat. Tyms has some chance to be that, and that's exciting to contemplateRetractableRoof said:
Yeah, now that I think about it... the 2nd & 3rd stringers bit did let some air out of my exuberance... but dammit I am still keeping my fingers crossed.TomTerrific said: