When Is It Okay To Worry About Triston Casas: An Attempt at the Reverse Jinx

Rovin Romine

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Casas:

Through May 1: 26 G, 96 PA, 14 r, 10 h, 3 2b, 0 3b, 3 hr, 8 rbi, .128/.281/.282/.563
Since May 1: 46 G, 172 PA, 16 r, 42 h, 8 2b, 1 3b, 6 hr, 19 rbi, .278/.361/.464/.824

And then he also went 1-1 today with a double to add to those numbers.

Dude has been fantastic at the plate for two months now.
And lest we forget the realities of the new offensive era, that .824 looks to be somewhere around a 120 OPS+, at least by eyeballing the other sox players.

League average OPS is .721

And while it's a bit apples to oranges, the .824 stacks up pretty well against the full-year 1B stats from the 15 AL teams. Here are the top 3:

Yanday Diaz is at .913 on the year.
Josh Naylor is at .812.
Gurrero is at .799
 

BaseballJones

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And lest we forget the realities of the new offensive era, that .824 looks to be somewhere around a 120 OPS+, at least by eyeballing the other sox players.

League average OPS is .721

And while it's a bit apples to oranges, the .824 stacks up pretty well against the full-year 1B stats from the 15 AL teams. Here are the top 3:

Yanday Diaz is at .913 on the year.
Josh Naylor is at .812.
Gurrero is at .799
It's definitely cherry picking a little, but only a little. Because it's not like we're saying, "If you only take his best 40 games..." or anything like that. It's simply that he obviously made some adjustments, got used to MLB pitching, and has been smacking the crap out of the ball ever since. I am willing to bet that his numbers the rest of the season are much more in line with what his numbers have been the past two months than they will be to his first month's numbers. Maybe not quite as good as these past two months, but close. The guy is a good hitter.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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It's definitely cherry picking a little, but only a little. Because it's not like we're saying, "If you only take his best 40 games..." or anything like that. It's simply that he obviously made some adjustments, got used to MLB pitching, and has been smacking the crap out of the ball ever since. I am willing to bet that his numbers the rest of the season are much more in line with what his numbers have been the past two months than they will be to his first month's numbers. Maybe not quite as good as these past two months, but close. The guy is a good hitter.
Defense seems slightly improved…. And some of his most recent memorable flubs have been rockets that IMO even good Olerud/Mickiewicz would have had troubles with.
Power still will show up- He’s easily got 30 HR potential. I still think he’s borderline AS material. They should extend him ASAP.
 

YTF

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Defense seems slightly improved…. And some of his most recent memorable flubs have been rockets that IMO even good Olerud/Mickiewicz would have had troubles with.
Power still will show up- He’s easily got 30 HR potential. I still think he’s borderline AS material. They should extend him ASAP.
A 1000 times no for me. If his defensive doesn't improve, he's a DH. We already have people who are penciling in Raffy and Yoshida for that position.
 

Rovin Romine

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A 1000 times no for me. If his defensive doesn't improve, he's a DH. We already have people who are penciling in Raffy and Yoshida for that position.
Depends on the terms, of course. (If it's a team-friendly contract, he can always be traded.) But I'm guessing the Sox would want to see at least one-and-a-half years of consistent production before extending him.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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A 1000 times no for me. If his defensive doesn't improve, he's a DH. We already have people who are penciling in Raffy and Yoshida for that position.
I don't see any reason to think he won't improve his defense. To at least my eye-test, he's noticeably improved his footwork and glove work catching throws across the diamond and I imagine he'll continue to improve there. He likely will never be vintage Olerud but I don't think Kevin Millar defense at 1B would really cost the team. Worst case scenario (and ideal scenario) is they can bring in a good defensive corner IF to give Devers and Casas both occasional breaks and play some close-and-late defensive replacement there. For the remainder of this season, Turner seems like that guy and wouldn't mind seeing him again in '24 in a similar role
 

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I don't see any reason to think he won't improve his defense. To at least my eye-test, he's noticeably improved his footwork and glove work catching throws across the diamond and I imagine he'll continue to improve there. He likely will never be vintage Olerud but I don't think Kevin Millar defense at 1B would really cost the team. Worst case scenario (and ideal scenario) is they can bring in a good defensive corner IF to give Devers and Casas both occasional breaks and play some close-and-late defensive replacement there. For the remainder of this season, Turner seems like that guy and wouldn't mind seeing him again in '24 in a similar role
I agree that his defense is likely to improve. Many of the mistakes he's making can be chalked up to indecision which might just be a lack of confidence or a concern over making the wrong choice. He's paralyzing himself by overthinking. If he can get past that, and experience can only help there, he can get to passable.

Duran has talked about having similar issues defensively in center, and he's said that once he stopped being concerned about making the wrong play all the time, he relaxed and improved. He's still not a great instinctive defender, but he's gotten noticeably better. I think Casas can do the same.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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I agree that his defense is likely to improve. Many of the mistakes he's making can be chalked up to indecision which might just be a lack of confidence or a concern over making the wrong choice. He's paralyzing himself by overthinking. If he can get past that, and experience can only help there, he can get to passable.

Duran has talked about having similar issues defensively in center, and he's said that once he stopped being concerned about making the wrong play all the time, he relaxed and improved. He's still not a great instinctive defender, but he's gotten noticeably better. I think Casas can do the same.
I don't really pay almost any attention to other teams... but if Casas continues his post- April trajectory, how does that project into the full season and where would that put him in RotY talk? Also... is Bello actually a rookie or did he have his status bumped because of time last season?
 

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I don't really pay almost any attention to other teams... but if Casas continues his post- April trajectory, how does that project into the full season and where would that put him in RotY talk? Also... is Bello actually a rookie or did he have his status bumped because of time last season?
Bello threw a few too many innings last year and is not a rookie any longer.

I think Casas would have to improve on his current trajectory to get himself into the rookie of the year consideration. Rangers 3B Josh Jung appears to be the favorite so far in the AL, garnering an All Star starting spot. Casas might not even be the favorite for ROY on the Sox. Masa is eligible, after all, and is having a better season so far.
 

Fishy1

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I agree that his defense is likely to improve. Many of the mistakes he's making can be chalked up to indecision which might just be a lack of confidence or a concern over making the wrong choice. He's paralyzing himself by overthinking. If he can get past that, and experience can only help there, he can get to passable.

Duran has talked about having similar issues defensively in center, and he's said that once he stopped being concerned about making the wrong play all the time, he relaxed and improved. He's still not a great instinctive defender, but he's gotten noticeably better. I think Casas can do the same.
Duran also put in the work to make material changes to his defensive approach: his jumps are much improved, and he's talked about trying to track the ball when it leaves the back, sprint to his spot without looking for it, and then look up when it's time to catch the ball.

I haven't seen any bad errors from Casas in a little bit. I think he'd probably have to improve his body if he wants to have better range, but this is baseball after all (lol).
 

YTF

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I don't see any reason to think he won't improve his defense. To at least my eye-test, he's noticeably improved his footwork and glove work catching throws across the diamond and I imagine he'll continue to improve there. He likely will never be vintage Olerud but I don't think Kevin Millar defense at 1B would really cost the team. Worst case scenario (and ideal scenario) is they can bring in a good defensive corner IF to give Devers and Casas both occasional breaks and play some close-and-late defensive replacement there. For the remainder of this season, Turner seems like that guy and wouldn't mind seeing him again in '24 in a similar role
I believe Turner has a player option for next season and that's fine for '24. I'm hesitant to extend Casas "ASAP" based on what we've seen to date. He definitely seems to have figured some things out at the plate, the next test will be how he adjusts to the adjustments that pitchers will make to him. He really hasn't had to do that yet. Defense...Of course he can improve and looks a bit better, but I'd want to see this play out on a more consistent basis.
 

JM3

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I'm fine extending him if the #s make sense. He should probably have enough faith in himself to keep on his current trajectory that they might not, though.
 

moondog80

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I'm fine extending him if the #s make sense. He should probably have enough faith in himself to keep on his current trajectory that they might not, though.
I'm not trying to pick on you, but isn't every deal ever OK if the numbers make sense? In this case, I think the numbers making sense to take that risk for a guy who is already under control through 2028 and as of today, has a negative WAR on the season (and yes, I'm bullish on him too), would mean a contract that is so club friendly that accepting it would be agent malpractice. Sure, you could ask, but I just don't see a common ground, and everyone here lost their shit when they lowballed Xander.
 

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Assuming a typical year-to-year situation, what do we think Casas makes through the next five years? It will be the league minimum or nearly so through the next couple years then more significant incremental increases in his arb years. Let's call it 5/35ish, which for reference is about what Devers made in his second through sixth seasons. That's got to be the baseline for "common ground" in any possible negotiation. After that it's just a matter of how much is fair to buy out X number of free agency years.

It's probably not worthwhile to do anything less than seven years right now, which would buy out two years of free agency and lock him in through age 30. How does 7/$80M strike folks?
 

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Looking at Matt Olson as a good comp, he got $5m in his first arb year before being signed to a long term deal. If Casas is 80% of Olson, I think we would all be happy. His arb years are going to be less than $35m, no? I’m thinking 5-8-12, plus 2 minimum years for $2m total. That takes him to $27m. Two free agent years bought out for $15-18m each, 7/$57-63m.
 

YTF

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Assuming a typical year-to-year situation, what do we think Casas makes through the next five years? It will be the league minimum or nearly so through the next couple years then more significant incremental increases in his arb years. Let's call it 5/35ish, which for reference is about what Devers made in his second through sixth seasons. That's got to be the baseline for "common ground" in any possible negotiation. After that it's just a matter of how much is fair to buy out X number of free agency years.

It's probably not worthwhile to do anything less than seven years right now, which would buy out two years of free agency and lock him in through age 30. How does 7/$80M strike folks?
The terms seem reasonable, my biggest sticking point would be when it's offered. Same for Duran, if they both continue on a positive path, lock them both up if you can. But let's give them both a bit of time. As much as Bloom gets roasted here, I think this is a large part of what his vision is.
 

JM3

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I'm not trying to pick on you, but isn't every deal ever OK if the numbers make sense? In this case, I think the numbers making sense to take that risk for a guy who is already under control through 2028 and as of today, has a negative WAR on the season (and yes, I'm bullish on him too), would mean a contract that is so club friendly that accepting it would be agent malpractice. Sure, you could ask, but I just don't see a common ground, and everyone here lost their shit when they lowballed Xander.
I mean sure, but then what's the point of this conversation at all? & how did what you say differ from what I said?
 

koufax32

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Looks like he’s arrived.
You’re welcome.

And yes, he’s really turned a corner. I’m still concerned about his ability to hit lefties as well as breaking pitches. At worst, he’s already a really, really good platoon partner though.
 

pokey_reese

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You’re welcome.

And yes, he’s really turned a corner. I’m still concerned about his ability to hit lefties as well as breaking pitches. At worst, he’s already a really, really good platoon partner though.
He actually has a better wRC+ this season against lefties than righties, largely because while he strikes out against them a lot, he also walks against them a lot. Maybe that's a weakness because he isn't putting the ball in play much against LHP (about 50% of those PAs are K or BB), but I don't think you need to platoon someone who's bad split is an OBP-heavy .760 OPS in this day and age.
 

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Red Sox's Triston Casas hit a 395-foot, 101.8 mph homer Friday, a 425-foot, 112.1 mph homer Saturday and a 419-foot, 105.4 mph homer Sunday.
 

JM3

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The thing in his splits that is a tiny bit concerning are his leverage #s...

Low: 157 wRC+ in 143 PAs, 9 homers (23.8% k's)
Medium: 59 wRC+ in 123 PAs, 2 homers (23.6% k's)
High: 43 wRC+ in 33 PAs, 0 homers (42.4% k's)

That's not even including today's 10th low leverage homer.
 

derekson

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Looking at Matt Olson as a good comp, he got $5m in his first arb year before being signed to a long term deal. If Casas is 80% of Olson, I think we would all be happy. His arb years are going to be less than $35m, no? I’m thinking 5-8-12, plus 2 minimum years for $2m total. That takes him to $27m. Two free agent years bought out for $15-18m each, 7/$57-63m.
Olson is one of the best defensive first basemen in baseball. Even if Casas develops as a hitter he'll never be that.
 

Benj4ever

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The thing in his splits that is a tiny bit concerning are his leverage #s...

Low: 157 wRC+ in 143 PAs, 9 homers (23.8% k's)
Medium: 59 wRC+ in 123 PAs, 2 homers (23.6% k's)
High: 43 wRC+ in 33 PAs, 0 homers (42.4% k's)

That's not even including today's 10th low leverage homer.
I'd be more concerned about these numbers if he weren't a rookie. But, still...not good.
 

shaggydog2000

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The thing in his splits that is a tiny bit concerning are his leverage #s...

Low: 157 wRC+ in 143 PAs, 9 homers (23.8% k's)
Medium: 59 wRC+ in 123 PAs, 2 homers (23.6% k's)
High: 43 wRC+ in 33 PAs, 0 homers (42.4% k's)

That's not even including today's 10th low leverage homer.
So he does worse as the sample sizes get smaller and less predictive?
 

azsoxpatsfan

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The thing in his splits that is a tiny bit concerning are his leverage #s...

Low: 157 wRC+ in 143 PAs, 9 homers (23.8% k's)
Medium: 59 wRC+ in 123 PAs, 2 homers (23.6% k's)
High: 43 wRC+ in 33 PAs, 0 homers (42.4% k's)

That's not even including today's 10th low leverage homer.
Small sample, plus usually high leverage situations are against the best pitching. I’m pretty sure I remember seeing a study that shows that’s guys typically perform exactly as well in clutch situations as they do in any other if the sample size is large enough
 

Bergs

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Small sample, plus usually high leverage situations are against the best pitching. I’m pretty sure I remember seeing a study that shows that’s guys typically perform exactly as well in clutch situations as they do in any other if the sample size is large enough
Yep. Also, he's been in his own head for a lot of those AB's. I see no reason that won't get better.
 

TFisNEXT

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Small sample, plus usually high leverage situations are against the best pitching. I’m pretty sure I remember seeing a study that shows that’s guys typically perform exactly as well in clutch situations as they do in any other if the sample size is large enough
RE: bolded

Even the king of clutch (Papi) had a career .870 OPS in “close and late” situations vs an overall career .931 OPS.

Then you realize that Ortiz was facing closers, relief aces, and LOOGYS (back when it was legal for one batter relievers) and that .870 OPS is pretty brilliant.
 

JM3

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I mean...I said it was a tiny bit concerning, not cause for panic. I wouldn't be that dismissive of the fact that almost all of his mashing has been in low leverage spots & not against the better pitchers one might see in high leverage spots...or, you know, in the playoffs.

But I'm hopeful he stays locked in. I was never that concerned early, but to some extent some of what we're seeing lately might not be sustainable all season. It's all very encouraging for a guy who was born in the 2000s, though.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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I mean...I said it was a tiny bit concerning, not cause for panic. I wouldn't be that dismissive of the fact that almost all of his mashing has been in low leverage spots & not against the better pitchers one might see in high leverage spots...or, you know, in the playoffs.

But I'm hopeful he stays locked in. I was never that concerned early, but to some extent some of what we're seeing lately might not be sustainable all season. It's all very encouraging for a guy who was born in the 2000s, though.
Uhhh….. and to add the obvious….. he’s a rookie. A rookie.
 

JM3

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Uhhh….. and to add the obvious….. he’s a rookie. A rookie.
Yoshida has 144 in low, 128 in medium & 117 in high.

EDC has 153 in low, 71 in medium & 189 in high.

Corbin Carroll has 154 in low, 131 in medium & 102 in high.

Josh Jung has 132 in low, 124 in medium & 92 in high.

I don't really have a point lol
 

Rovin Romine

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I mean...I said it was a tiny bit concerning, not cause for panic. I wouldn't be that dismissive of the fact that almost all of his mashing has been in low leverage spots & not against the better pitchers one might see in high leverage spots...or, you know, in the playoffs.

But I'm hopeful he stays locked in. I was never that concerned early, but to some extent some of what we're seeing lately might not be sustainable all season. It's all very encouraging for a guy who was born in the 2000s, though.
In the past 30 days he's hit 297/366/545 with 6 HR and 15 RBI. So if that's "lately," I also kind of doubt that .911 OPS is sustainable the rest of the season. That sort of clip, all season long, would make him the #4 player (qualifying) in the AL.

If you're holding him to that kind of production, you're probably being unreasonable. He's had a career 334 ML ABs. 76 of those came last year when he was 22 and had lost part of the season to an ankle injury.

This year he had a crappy April, a decent May, and an excellent June/July.

Just enjoy it.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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In the past 30 days he's hit 297/366/545 with 6 HR and 15 RBI. So if that's "lately," I also kind of doubt that .911 OPS is sustainable the rest of the season. That sort of clip, all season long, would make him the #4 player (qualifying) in the AL.

If you're holding him to that kind of production, you're probably being unreasonable. He's had a career 334 ML ABs. 76 of those came last year when he was 22 and had lost part of the season to an ankle injury.

This year he had a crappy April, a decent May, and an excellent June/July.

Just enjoy it.
Honestly I think he’s going to be a looooong fixture no. 5 hitter clubbing 30hrs with an .875-ish OPS for the next 5 years at least. He’s got all the attributes of an advanced hitter. Defense is ehhhhhh hopefully will get better (think it will….) but I’m beyond confident in his batting skills.
 

JM3

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In the past 30 days he's hit 297/366/545 with 6 HR and 15 RBI. So if that's "lately," I also kind of doubt that .911 OPS is sustainable the rest of the season. That sort of clip, all season long, would make him the #4 player (qualifying) in the AL.

If you're holding him to that kind of production, you're probably being unreasonable. He's had a career 334 ML ABs. 76 of those came last year when he was 22 and had lost part of the season to an ankle injury.

This year he had a crappy April, a decent May, and an excellent June/July.

Just enjoy it.
I was thinking the pace of the past 2 months or so.

I don't think I have unreasonable expectations or major concerns? Those are just really drastic leverage splits which lead to the belief that Casas is still a bit of a bad ball hitter & might have some work to do against good pitching, & as such could see some slumps & lulls, which are of course totally to be expected for any hitter, especially a 23 y/o rookie.

The pessimism was way over the top earlier in the season, & I think the current optimism is probably slightly over the top, even if the long-term optimism is warranted.
 

koufax32

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Sooooooo….when do the conversations start about buying out a few FA years? What would a hypothetical offer look like?
 

Niastri

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I figure this thread deserved to get topped after Casas has his first two homer day, off Max Scherzer of all pitchers.

I said above somewhere that Casas was going to hit 25 second half homers and bully his way into rookie of the year conversations... So far so good.
 

Ale Xander

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Good eye and good power, not worried about offense at all. At worst, a very credible DH.
 

E5 Yaz

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Casas with some insight into facing scherzer

“I took a big swing on the 2-0 fastball. I had been missing a couple fastballs,” Casas said. “I missed a couple in the second at-bat as well. Stepped out, regrouped and tried to make a little mental adjustment in terms of where I wanted to try to see the ball to hit it as best as I could because I kept missing that fastball. I was seeing the other pitches well. That step-out was just to regroup, to try to recollect myself.”
https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2023/07/smiling-triston-casas-lets-red-sox-teammates-know-hes-thinking-of-them.html
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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Even earlier in the season you could see he had a plan when he was at the plate. He’s incredibly smart beyond his years as a hitter- he’s got 30+ HR/.850+ OPS future for 10 years straight. Get him, Bello and and Duran signed. Atlanta Brave these guys!
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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He's a really fucking good hitter.
He needs to spend the off-season focusing on becoming an adequate defensive first baseman. If he does that, and I think he can, he'll be at first for the Sox for the next decade.
Of course he can because he's always been an adequate defensive first baseman coming up. This is what SoxProspects said about his defense: "Confident picking out throws in the dirt. Soft hands and surprisingly fluid actions. Moves well enough for first base. Potential solid-average defender there."

I think what we've seen from him so far is mostly lack of confidence (and a heaping helping of shitty Kike throws). He tries too hard to not make mistakes and stiffens up and mistakes result. He'll eventually settle in. We're already seeing signs of it.
 

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Sandy Leon Trotsky

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.349/.465/.814 at 23. Not worrying.
.907 OPS since 5/1 and projects out at 29 HR pace if that was a 162 game sample. BABiP Is.341 during that same period. Likely high for him…. I don’t know how to assume a “normal” BABiP and then to extract numbers but HR’s are excluded which is where most of his SLG numbers will be…. I don’t see many 2B or 3B out of him…
 

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.907 OPS since 5/1 and projects out at 29 HR pace if that was a 162 game sample. BABiP Is.341 during that same period. Likely high for him…. I don’t know how to assume a “normal” BABiP and then to extract numbers but HR’s are excluded which is where most of his SLG numbers will be…. I don’t see many 2B or 3B out of him…
He'll hit plenty of doubles
 

TFisNEXT

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Casas will probably have a good BABIP most seasons given his exit velocity, barrel % and hard hit numbers. These are extra awesome for a 23 year old.
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