Unusual plays

Over Guapo Grande

panty merchant
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2005
2,303
Worcester
Brain lock is where I land on this. The years of "In a run-down, chase the runner back to his/her starting base" overrode the "hey, it is two outs, step on the bag". And the 2B/RF were probably thinking "surely Craig will just tag him out...", so there was really no reason for them to think about covering first.
 

santadevil

Well-Known Member
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
5,286
Saskatchestan
The home plate ump was incorrect too - he signaled safe but the runner wasn't safe as the hitter outcome was pending.
I think the home plate ump has to make the call right away, because a play happened there. If that runner was out, inning would have been over. And since he was safe, he indicated so, but it would have been negated had they got Baez out at first on the force still
 

Ed Hillel

Wants to be startin somethin
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2007
27,335
Here
I think the home plate ump has to make the call right away, because a play happened there. If that runner was out, inning would have been over. And since he was safe, he indicated so, but it would have been negated had they got Baez out at first on the force still
Yes, ump made the correct call.
 

canderson

Mr. Brightside
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
28,932
Harrisburg, Pa.
I think the home plate ump has to make the call right away, because a play happened there. If that runner was out, inning would have been over. And since he was safe, he indicated so, but it would have been negated had they got Baez out at first on the force still
My thought was ... shouldn't he wait until the deciding runner is safe/out? If there were less than two ours, I agree but with two outs that runner can stand on the plate all day long and it's irrelevant if the hitter crawls to first base only to get tagged an inch from the bag.

But I see your point here. Just a very odd play all around.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
13,391
Miami (oh, Miami!)
Well, I mean, what else is he gonna do? He grounded into an out. Dancing around on the line and somehow luring the other team into a historic boondoggle is your only chance of salvaging the run. It's still incredibly low odds but it's slightly better than just running to first and taking the out, and it happened to work out for him.

(But, yeah, I don't think he was thinking that).
I give full Kudos to Baez for trying to make something happen, then taking advantage of it when it did, instead of just letting Craig chase him and tag him out.

No, he obviously didn't plan it, but he had "the baseball instincts" to play it when it did. And taking second was just icing on the cake.
 

Humphrey

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2010
1,493
"Safe" only means no tag. It doesn't mean "run counts".

Same as if the runner took off from second on a grounder to short....as he's going by the ss tries to tag him and misses (and the runner doesn't go out of the baseline.

Two of the dumbest plays I've ever seen within weeks of each other.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lGUEHKGZVg
 

oumbi

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 15, 2006
3,345
Keith Law: I mean, I love Baez, and that’s heads-up running by him, but what in the actual fuck was Will Craig thinking? Was this his first day playing baseball? STEP ON FIRST BASE.
I am just curious, was the batter awarded a hit and RBI on that play?
 

Tangled Up In Red

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Nov 8, 2004
3,440
Bernal
I am just curious, was the batter awarded a hit and RBI on that play?
When I checked play by play on the day of (scoring has maybe changed since), the hitter was safe on second on an throwing error by the catcher. No scorebook punishment for Craig - though he did commit a fielding error later in the game.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
13,391
Miami (oh, Miami!)

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
13,391
Miami (oh, Miami!)
Will Craig. Inspiring confidence.

“Oh yeah. Yeah, as soon as I released the ball, I was like, 'Oh my gosh, what am I doing?' Like, I know better than that,” Craig said Friday. “That’s like simple baseball 101, but I guess in my mind when I saw [Javier Báez] kind of running back ... just kind of lost my mind for a second. Just kind of saw [catcher] Michael Perez looking at me and kind of just released the ball, and the rest is history, basically.”
https://www.mlb.com/news/will-craig-reflects-on-fielding-miscue
 

Rice4HOF

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 21, 2002
1,737
Calgary, Canada
My thought was ... shouldn't he wait until the deciding runner is safe/out? If there were less than two ours, I agree but with two outs that runner can stand on the plate all day long and it's irrelevant if the hitter crawls to first base only to get tagged an inch from the bag.

But I see your point here. Just a very odd play all around.
No. You make the call as it happens, and then take runs off the board as necessary. For example, if with 2 outs and a runner on 1st, the batter hits a double and there's a close play at the plate, the umpire has to call the runner safe or out. If he's safe, but the batter missed 1st base and the defense appeals, then you call the batter-runner out for missing 1st base, and take the run off the board.
 

LogansDad

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 15, 2006
19,671
Alamogordo

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
13,391
Miami (oh, Miami!)
I mean, I get that it was a huge mistake that should have never been made, but I'm a big proponent of admitting your mistakes, moving on, learning from them and getting better, so I think this was about as good a statement of self-reflection as you probably could have had in this case. Hope for his sake this isn't career defining.
I don't mean to mock him all that harshly. As you say, he did take responsibility for it and that's the right thing to do. I hope he just moves on, as he said. He's having a tough year so far.

It was the phrase "just kind of lost my mind for a second" that I found amusing. I know he meant it to mean something like "I got caught up in the excitement, target-fixated, and forgot what I should be doing." But as an excuse-phrase it sounds more radical, like, "And there I was, up on the balcony holding the baby, when I just kind of lost my mind for a second. . ."
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
20,280
What would the call be if he kept running Baez back to HP? It's not like a base; he can't just stand there and be safe.
 

Rice4HOF

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 21, 2002
1,737
Calgary, Canada
The insane part isn't that an umpire made a mistake, it's that all those people with a heavy incentive to not let him walk (the pitcher, the catcher, manager, etc.) didn't notice.

When this happens in little league half of the parents of the defensive team are screaming before the kid gets to first base.
This happens about once or twice a year. I actually can't believe it happened in the playoffs last season, and Adam Duvall ended up making an out AFTER he had 4 balls delivered to him. https://retrosheet.org/PitchCountMistakes.htm

edit: found a video of the sequence here View: https://twitter.com/UmpireAuditor/status/1313985486470344705

I get an umpire making a mistake, but shouldn't a hitter's approach be constantly changing depending on the count? How does he not know it's a 3-2 pitch?
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
30,721
AZ
This happens about once or twice a year. I actually can't believe it happened in the playoffs last season, and Adam Duvall ended up making an out AFTER he had 4 balls delivered to him. https://retrosheet.org/PitchCountMistakes.htm

edit: found a video of the sequence here View: https://twitter.com/UmpireAuditor/status/1313985486470344705

I get an umpire making a mistake, but shouldn't a hitter's approach be constantly changing depending on the count? How does he not know it's a 3-2 pitch?
I think the umps give the count during the at bat. Some do it on every pitch and some do it only on 3-2 or when they get balls or there is a delay and the batter returns to the box (like a long foul ball). The way I think this would happen is if the ump called "1-1" after the third pitch instead of "2-1" and nobody noticed. The mistake would keep getting repeated and the batter if he didn't notice that it was really 2-1 and not 1-1 would then have that as his normal.
 

moondog80

heart is two sizes two small
SoSH Member
Sep 20, 2005
5,683
I think the umps give the count during the at bat. Some do it on every pitch and some do it only on 3-2 or when they get balls or there is a delay and the batter returns to the box (like a long foul ball). The way I think this would happen is if the ump called "1-1" after the third pitch instead of "2-1" and nobody noticed. The mistake would keep getting repeated and the batter if he didn't notice that it was really 2-1 and not 1-1 would then have that as his normal.
If the guy running scoreboard doesn't make the same mistake, doesn't everyone in the park notice? Or is it the guy running the scoreboard making a mistake that sets off the chain of events in the first place?

I mean, it happens and it's not super-duper-rare, so I guess nobody is perfect. Still it seems like there are enough checks and balances where this would never happen. Then again...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Down_Game_(1990)
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
30,721
AZ
If the guy running scoreboard doesn't make the same mistake, doesn't everyone in the park notice? Or is it the guy running the scoreboard making a mistake that sets off the chain of events in the first place?

I mean, it happens and it's not super-duper-rare, so I guess nobody is perfect. Still it seems like there are enough checks and balances where this would never happen. Then again...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Down_Game_(1990)
Gotta be a perfect storm I guess. In the clip above the announcers knew right away so television at least presumably had the right count on the tv score box.

It's hard to tell where that particular at bat went wrong but my strong suspicion is that it was calling it 1-1 after the third pitch when it should have been 2-1. Maybe the scoreboard got it wrong, the ump lost focus and relied on what it said on the score board and called it "1-1," the batter didn't notice, and then everyone just assumed 1-1 was right. I think one of the reasons they call out the count is not just for the batter but also so that the batter or the catcher can say something if they think it's wrong. Here, the catcher probably wouldn't say anything. I'm sure the pitcher absolutely knew what the count was.

I wonder if tracking the count is also something the first and third base umpires are supposed to be doing too. I'm pretty sure that there have been cases I've seen on tv where the count is questioned and the HPU checks with 1B or 3B about it. I think it usually happens where the scoreboard and the ump have a different count and the umps may conference.

I guess the bottom line is that with like 200,000 at bats per year the chances that this can get fouled up here or there is not that surprising.

Edit: Looks like its a reviewable situation: https://www.mlb.com/news/instant-replay-used-to-check-count-in-yankees-astros/c-70876624
 
Last edited:

E5 Yaz

Transcends message boarding
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 25, 2002
68,793
Oregon
Hayes, the Pirates' best player, hit an oppo HR right at the pole. While running hard when it wasn't certain to be a HR, he missed 1st base entirely. Dodgers correcty appealed, then It was clear on replay and overturned into an out.

https://www.mlb.com/news/ke-bryan-hayes-out-after-missing-first-base
Tim Kurkijian, often-buried at ESPN because he actually still cares about doing his job, with a deep-dive about the state of base running in the majors. Really worth reading.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/31551774/sorry-had-see-how-baserunning-become-embarrassing-problem-major-league-baseball
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
20,280
Tim Kurkijian, often-buried at ESPN because he actually still cares about doing his job, with a deep-dive about the state of base running in the majors. Really worth reading.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/31551774/sorry-had-see-how-baserunning-become-embarrassing-problem-major-league-baseball
Very interesting.
I think Molitor had the best point. He acknowledged the "value of an out" line of thinking, but posited that taking a base (or not screwing up baserunning more generally) has gotten to the point where it is undervalued as compared to the out calculus. There's an argument to be made (and numbers that are probably beyond my skills) that in an era where there are fewer non-HR hits, the value of grabbing an extra base is higher than its been in a long time. And even within the most extreme "outs are bad" school, you'd think that better baserunning to at least avoid really bad outs would be a focus.
 

soxhop411

news aggregator
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2009
38,974
Per our very own @Brand Name it appears that the Red Sox have turned the first ever 2-3-4 double play
View: https://twitter.com/JessicaDBrand/status/1403195713840992260
Video here
https://mlb-cuts-diamond.mlb.com/FORGE/2021/2021-06/10/a1b3cfc1-8f6374d9-37a0bc12-csvm-diamondx64-asset_1280x720_59_4000K.mp4
Awesome query, thanks! I’ve tried all over to find a prior 2-3-4 double play. I’ve got NOTHING. The remotely closest thing I can find is a 1-2-3-4 *triple* play the Providence Grays hit into against the Boston Beaneaters, in the 6th inning of a game played on August 11th, 1883.
 
Last edited:

Harry Hooper

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2002
28,528
For all the shit umps get sometimes, they were absolutely on top of both of those calls.

Eh, the purpose of the infield fly rule is to prevent the defense from getting a "cheap" double play on the existing baserunners* by letting the ball drop and then retiring the baserunners via force outs. Once the fly ball is more than a few strides into the outfield, it really is unlikely that the defense can let a fly ball drop and still have time to get two force outs. In the example last night, Bogaerts is making it to second before a relay to 3B and a relay to 2B can be executed.

* The batter-runner has their own responsibility to run to first regardless of where the batted ball goes and faces no dilemma about leading off the bag vs. tagging up.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
27,383
Hingham, MA
Eh, the purpose of the infield fly rule is to prevent the defense from getting a "cheap" double play on the existing baserunners* by letting the ball drop and then retiring the baserunners via force outs. Once the fly ball is more than a few strides into the outfield, it really is unlikely that the defense can let a fly ball drop and still have time to get two force outs. In the example last night, Bogaerts is making it to second before a relay to 3B and a relay to 2B can be executed.

* The batter-runner has their own responsibility to run to first regardless of where the batted ball goes and faces no dilemma about leading off the bag vs. tagging up.
I didn't necessarily mean that I agreed with the call; it was borderline IMO. I meant from a process perspective, the ump seemed to make it very clear what he was calling, even if some of the baserunners were confused.
 
Last edited:

KiltedFool

has a terminal case of creeping sharia
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2005
2,360
I didn't necessarily mean that I agreed with the call; it was borderline IMO. I meant from a process perspective, the ump seemed to make it very clear what he was calling, even of some of the baserunners were confused.
And a big part of the umpire's responsibility in the scenario is to make the call timely, the sooner the better, and he did that. With some of the defensive shifts I could see more non-intuitive infield fly calls where an infielder is stationed in the shallow outfield moving forward.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
27,383
Hingham, MA
And a big part of the umpire's responsibility in the scenario is to make the call timely, the sooner the better, and he did that. With some of the defensive shifts I could see more non-intuitive infield fly calls where an infielder is stationed in the shallow outfield moving forward.
Right, exactly.
 

Harry Hooper

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2002
28,528
And a big part of the umpire's responsibility in the scenario is to make the call timely, the sooner the better, and he did that. With some of the defensive shifts I could see more non-intuitive infield fly calls where an infielder is stationed in the shallow outfield moving forward.

But since the rule only applies when there are less than 2 out, the baserunners typically are not running with abandon at the crack of the bat and don't really need that quick notification from the ump. If they are doing a double steal or whatever, so be it.
 

Rwillh11

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
141
Eh, the purpose of the infield fly rule is to prevent the defense from getting a "cheap" double play on the existing baserunners* by letting the ball drop and then retiring the baserunners via force outs. Once the fly ball is more than a few strides into the outfield, it really is unlikely that the defense can let a fly ball drop and still have time to get two force outs. In the example last night, Bogaerts is making it to second before a relay to 3B and a relay to 2B can be executed.

* The batter-runner has their own responsibility to run to first regardless of where the batted ball goes and faces no dilemma about leading off the bag vs. tagging up.
The way the rule is written (catchable under ordinary effort) basically means that once an infielder settles under the ball, like Correa did, the umpires have to call it.

If Correa intentionally drops that ball and immediately picks it up, he puts the runners in a difficult situation and absolutely has a shot at turning two. If the runners are standing on the base when he drops it, he can throw to second for the force and possibly get the lead runner hung up between 2nd and 3rd, as he would have no choice but to run. The umpire needs to call it as soon as the fielder settles under it to let the runners know they are not at risk if he does something like that.
 

SoxJox

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2003
4,375
Rock > SoxJox < Hard Place
Let's review Rule 2.00:

An INFIELD FLY is a fair fly ball (not including a line drive nor an attempted bunt) which can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort, when first and second, or first, second and third bases are occupied, before two are out. The pitcher, catcher and any outfielder who stations himself in the infield on the play shall be considered infielders for the purpose of this rule.
[Emphasis added]

Additionally:

When it seems apparent that a batted ball will be an Infield Fly, the umpire shall immediately declare "Infield Fly" for the benefit of the runners. If the ball is near thebaselines, the umpire shall declare "Infield Fly, if Fair."The ball is alive and runners may advance at the risk of the ball being caught, or retouch and advance after the ball is touched, the same as on any fly ball. If the hitbecomes a foul ball, it is treated the same as any foul.If a declared Infield Fly is allowed to fall untouched to the ground, and bounces foul before passing first or third base, it is a foul ball. If a declared Infield Fly falls untouched to the ground outside the baseline, and bounces fair before passing first or third base, it is an Infield Fly.
[Emphasis added]

And finally, a comment from within the rule:

Rule 2.00 (Infield Fly) Comment: On the infield fly rule the umpire is to rule whether the ball could ordinarily have been handled by an infielder - not by some arbitrary limitation such as the [infield] grass [boundary] or the base lines. The umpire must rule also that a ball is an infield fly, even if handled by an outfielder, if, in the umpire's judgment, the ball could have been as easily handled by an infielder. The infield fly is in no sense to be considered an appeal play. The umpire's judgment must govern, and the decision should be made immediately.

When an infield fly rule is called, runners may advance at their own risk. If on an infield fly rule, the infielder intentionally drops a fair ball, the ball remains in play despite the provisions of Rule 6.05(l). The infield fly rule takes precedence.
[Emphasis added]

With these as guideposts, the umps made the correct call. While Correa moved to a spot at a relatively considerable distance into the outfield, he had to make nothing beyond an ordinary effort to position himself under the ball.

If there is anything I would question, it would be whether the umpire(s) immediately ruled it an infield fly. The 2nd base umpire clearly is making no physical gesture to accompany any audible announcement until after the ball is thrown to second. Nor is the home plate umpire as far as I can tell.
 
Last edited:

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
20,280
Let's review Rule 2.00:

[Emphasis added]

Additionally:

[Emphasis added]

And finally, a comment from within the rule:

[Emphasis added]

With these as guideposts, the umps made the correct call. While Correa moved to a spot at a relatively considerable distance into the outfield, he had to make nothing beyond an ordinary effort to position himself under the ball.

If there is anything I would question, it would be whether the umpire(s) immediately ruled it an infield fly. The 2nd base umpire clearly is making no physical gesture to accompany any audible announcement. Nor is the home plate umpire as far as I can tell.
A popup to medium depth OF seems like it would be the hardest fly rule call. Given the way the rule is written, I think the umpires' are, at least internally, guided by the infielder's action. Here it was Correia. Tumpane might have been able to call it a second or two earlier, but it appeared as thought he signalled as soon as Correia stopped running away from the infield.
 

SoxJox

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2003
4,375
Rock > SoxJox < Hard Place
I'm not sure I would call that immediately. He would have been better served, say at about the 2:00 mark, when Correa has already positioned himself under the ball and the ump is looking directly at him. Instead, he waited until after Correa dropped the ball, which proper application of the rule does not require. But, he did call it correctly
 

SoxJox

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2003
4,375
Rock > SoxJox < Hard Place
A popup to medium depth OF seems like it would be the hardest fly rule call. Given the way the rule is written, I think the umpires' are, at least internally, guided by the infielder's action. Here it was Correia. Tumpane might have been able to call it a second or two earlier, but it appeared as thought he signalled as soon as Correia stopped running away from the infield.
Although it is interesting, if not perplexing, that the rule can be invoked even if an outfielder makes a play on the ball if, in the umpire's judgment, an infielder could have made the play through ordinary effort. In theory, the depth into the outfield is irrelevant. It's the "ordinary" effort that is the overriding factor.
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
20,280
Although it is interesting, if not perplexing, that the rule can be invoked even if an outfielder makes a play on the ball if, in the umpire's judgment, an infielder could have made the play through ordinary effort. In theory, the depth into the outfield is irrelevant. It's the "ordinary" effort that is the overriding factor.
Apropos of nothing in particular, I wonder whether it's the ordinary effort of generically positioned fielders or of *these* fielders, giving consideration to where they were positioned when the play started?
 

Harry Hooper

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2002
28,528
It's pretty clear in the link soxhop posted above that the call was made pretty quickly, go to about 1:36 in the video.
??? At 1:36 I believe we see the 2B ump making the infield fly call after the ball is dropped. The other angles are frustrating as the ump is on the fringe (or just out) of the camera frame, but in terms of what we can see it's not evident that the ump was visibly making the call before the drop. We don't know what he was verbalizing and when.

It's in the rule.
Yes, but but since we are talking about fly balls in the rule, it's a questionable component. Adding in the radical shifts going on, the rule needs updating. Maybe even a new line on the field (arc of danger?) so that the ump can yell "infield fly if fair or within the arc." Perhaps even have the arc drawn deeper into the LF area than the RF area.