Unusual plays

tims4wins

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The other night in Baltimore the O's had first and second, no outs, at home in extra innings. Adam Jones hit one off the wall in right...and the O's didn't score since the runner on second was tagging. Moreover, Jones made it all the way past second base and failed to re-touch on his way back to first. The Rays appealed and the umps called him safe - they missed the call. Of course on the next pitch Wieters went yard for a game winning grand slam. Baseball!
 

AB in DC

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riboflav said:
That was awesome. Of course, it looked like he should have been called out as soon as left second base as the Cubs' infielder tagged him.
I didn't run it in slo-mo, but it looked like his foot was still on second when he was tagged.
 

DJnVa

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Segura shouldn't have been allowed to go back to first. Once he was at second and another pitch is thrown you are not allowed to return to a previous base. You CAN do so while within same play, like rounding second, say on a steal, but ball was hit and caught and you need to get back to first.
 

SumnerH

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Segura shouldn't have been allowed to go back to first. Once he was at second and another pitch is thrown you are not allowed to return to a previous base. You CAN do so while within same play, like rounding second, say on a steal, but ball was hit and caught and you need to get back to first.
Quote, please? I do not believe a rule exists that says what you're saying. The only rule about running the bases backwards that I know of has been quoted earlier in the thread, and it only prohibits running backward for the purpose of confusing the defense or creating a travesty of the game.
 

singaporesoxfan

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Since the rule was quoted in the general MLB thread:
 
7.08
Any runner is out when:
...
(i) After he has acquired legal possession of a base, he runs the bases in reverse order for the purpose of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game. The umpire shall immediately call Time and declare the runner out;
Rule 7.08(i) Comment: If a runner touches an unoccupied base and then thinks the ball was caught or is decoyed into returning to the base he last touched, he may be put out running back to that base, but if he reaches the previously occupied base safely he cannot be put out while in contact with that base.
 
Since Segura was only confusing and making a traveshamockery of himself, I think he was allowed to run back to first.
 

Dionysus

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Interestingly Segura apparently should have been out yet another time. Not only did he he get tagged when not touching second - the ump was so busy gesturing to Braun that he missed if, but apparently he should have been out because the first base coach grabbed him to direct him to 1st rather than the dugout.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130420&content_id=45334346&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb

A excellent article from MLB.com on the play and all its zaniness.

Basically Segura made 4 outs in the inning. Only two got recorded.
 

OttoC

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7.12: Unless two are out, the status of a following runner is not affected by a preceding runner’s failure to touch or retouch a base.
 
The runner on first (the following runner) stole second while the preceding runner tried to steal third. So, why would anyone other than Segura be out caught stealing in a rundown? He obviously could not be allowed to be safe at first (if that had happened) because then the runner on first would have batted before the runner who was on second.
 
Way back when, Germany Schaefer was on first with a runner on third and a delayed double steal was called. Schaefer stole second but the catcher held the ball instead of throwing it so Schaefer then stole to set up the double steal again. That time it was successful. I thought that caused a rule change to prevent reverse steals.
 

Zedia

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Dionysus said:
Interestingly Segura apparently should have been out yet another time. Not only did he he get tagged when not touching second - the ump was so busy gesturing to Braun that he missed if, but apparently he should have been out because the first base coach grabbed him to direct him to 1st rather than the dugout.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130420&content_id=45334346&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb

A excellent article from MLB.com on the play and all its zaniness.

Basically Segura made 4 outs in the inning. Only two got recorded.
 
It appears time was called when the 1st base coach grabs him.  
 

LogansDad

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OttoC said:
7.12: Unless two are out, the status of a following runner is not affected by a preceding runner’s failure to touch or retouch a base.
 
The runner on first (the following runner) stole second while the preceding runner tried to steal third. So, why would anyone other than Segura be out caught stealing in a rundown? He obviously could not be allowed to be safe at first (if that had happened) because then the runner on first would have batted before the runner who was on second.
 
Way back when, Germany Schaefer was on first with a runner on third and a delayed double steal was called. Schaefer stole second but the catcher held the ball instead of throwing it so Schaefer then stole to set up the double steal again. That time it was successful. I thought that caused a rule change to prevent reverse steals.
 
7.03 is the actual rule in play here:
 
7.03
(a) Two runners may not occupy a base, but if, while the ball is alive, two runners are
touching a base, the following runner shall be out when tagged and the preceding
runner is entitled to the base, unless Rule 7.03(b) applies.
(b) If a runner is forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner and two
runners are touching a base to which the following runner is forced, the following
runner is entitled to the base and the preceding runner shall be out when tagged or
when a fielder possesses the ball and touches the base to which such preceding run-
ner is forced
 
The rule you state would be in play if, say, Segura had rounded third and then run abck to second without touching while Braun was on first.  Then Segura would be out and Braun would remain at first.
 
Instead, since Braun was not forced to go to second (remember he went there while Segura was in the run down), the base still technically belongs to Segura, therefore Braun is the one called out.
 

DJnVa

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Quote, please? I do not believe a rule exists that says what you're saying. The only rule about running the bases backwards that I know of has been quoted earlier in the thread, and it only prohibits running backward for the purpose of confusing the defense or creating a travesty of the game.     
    
It's the very first rule under "The Runner" actually.
 
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/runner_7.jsp
 
7.01
A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base.
Rule 7.01 Comment: If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base.
 
That's it.  He stole second.  Pitcher took the rubber.  He is not allowed to go back to first.  The other quoted rules are referring to baserunning within the same play.
 
I am 100% confused as to why even in that article posted at MLB.com they somehow don't quote rule 7.01.
 
EDIT: Oh, it's because it's by the team's beat writer.
 

SoxJox

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I was digging around the Al Gore machine and came across this entertaining piece:  11 Major League Baseball Feats that Have Only Happened Once.
 
Of course, #11 is very much tongue in cheek: "Player goes from a hat size of 7.5 to 16 over the course of a career.Accomplished by Barry Bonds, 1986 - 2007. Barry started his career as a talented, thin, second-generation stud prospect. He ended it with a bigger head than the kid in "So I Married an Axe Murderer". And that kid's head looked like an orange on a toothpick."
 
And #5, sadly, happened against the Red Sox, but ultimately with a happy ending: "Two triple plays in one game. Accomplished by the Minnesota Twins, July 17th, 1990. This could also be expanded to the only team ever to turn two triple plays in one game... AND LOSE.  The Red Sox hit into two triple plays (one in the fourth, one in the eighth) but still beat the Twins, 1-0.
 

Hendu for Kutch

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I remember that double-triple play game.  There was definitely some stunned silence in our house after the 2nd triple play.
 
In a semi-related post, I was at a game in 2001 when Scott Hatteberg became the only player in MLB history to hit into a triple play and hit a grand slam in the same game, I believe against the Rangers.
 

Idabomb333

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Hendu for Kutch said:
I remember that double-triple play game.  There was definitely some stunned silence in our house after the 2nd triple play.
 
In a semi-related post, I was at a game in 2001 when Scott Hatteberg became the only player in MLB history to hit into a triple play and hit a grand slam in the same game, I believe against the Rangers.
I bet Hatteberg's WPA was really interesting for that game, broken into WPA+ and WPA-
 

OttoC

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Hendu for Kutch said:
I remember that double-triple play game.  There was definitely some stunned silence in our house after the 2nd triple play....
 
Not only did the Red Sox hit into two triple plays and win that game but the very next day they hit into six double plays against the Twins and won that game, too. That tied an MLB record (at least since 1919) and it only took them eight innings to do it while the other teams batted in nine innings.
 

rodderick

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SoxJox said:
I was digging around the Al Gore machine and came across this entertaining piece:  11 Major League Baseball Feats that Have Only Happened Once.
 
Of course, #11 is very much tongue in cheek: "Player goes from a hat size of 7.5 to 16 over the course of a career.Accomplished by Barry Bonds, 1986 - 2007. Barry started his career as a talented, thin, second-generation stud prospect. He ended it with a bigger head than the kid in "So I Married an Axe Murderer". And that kid's head looked like an orange on a toothpick."
 
And #5, sadly, happened against the Red Sox, but ultimately with a happy ending: "Two triple plays in one game. Accomplished by the Minnesota Twins, July 17th, 1990. This could also be expanded to the only team ever to turn two triple plays in one game... AND LOSE.  The Red Sox hit into two triple plays (one in the fourth, one in the eighth) but still beat the Twins, 1-0.
 
Regarding #2, Nava accomplished the same feat (hitting a grand slam on his first major league pitch).
 

ForceAtHome

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Speaking of the Segura play, does anyone know how it was officially scored? Whether it should have been allowed or not, I can't seem to find a conclusive answer how it officially goes down in history as happening.
 
Yahoo has this for the sequence which is obviously convoluted and not accurate to reality as Segura appears to have broken their software:
- J. Segura singled
- J. Segura stole second
- R. Braun walked
- J. Segura out at third
- R. Weeks struck out swinging
- R. Braun caught stealing, catcher to second
 
Baseball-Refeence has the following sequence which looks like a possible answer:
-Single to SS
-Segura Steals 2B
-Walk
-Braun Caught Stealing 2B (P-3B); Segura stays at 2B
-Baserunner Advance; Segura to 1B
-Strikeout Swinging
-Caught Stealing 2B (C-2B)
 
ESPN had this version which is pretty similar to Baseball-Reference's recap:
-J Segura reached on infield single to shortstop.
-J Segura stole second.
-R Braun walked.
-R Braun caught stealing second, pitcher to third to second. J Segura to first.
-R Weeks struck out swinging.
-J Segura caught stealing second.
 
MLB.com's play-by-play doesn't even list Segura going back to first base:
-Jean Segura singles on a ground ball to shortstop Starlin Castro.
-With Ryan Braun batting, Jean Segura steals 2nd base.
-Ryan Braun walks.
-With Rickie Weeks batting, Ryan Braun caught stealing 2nd base, pitcher Shawn Camp to third baseman Luis Valbuena.
-Rickie Weeks strikes out swinging.
-With Jonathan Lucroy batting, Jean Segura caught stealing 2nd base, catcher Welington Castillo to second baseman Darwin Barney.
 

OttoC

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SoxJox

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timlinin8th said:
And since this article was published, #2 was achieved again by Daniel Nava. Weird that it NEVER happened over a century and then happened twice in the span of a couple years.
You know, I watched him hit that granny in his first at bat, but I didn't remember that it was on the first pitch.
 

DJnVa

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OttoC said:
Jason Stark's blog has the supposedly official take that MLB's baseball operations department sent as a memo to all umpires:
 
http://espn.go.com/mlb/blog/_/name/stark_jayson/id/9210491/the-final-ruling-jean-segura-baserunning-misadventures
 
It involves Rules 7.01 and a comment to Rule 7.08(a): Segura should have been called out because he "abandoned his effort" to keep
running the bases when he left second base "and started towards the first base line."
 
Some of our posters are so smart :)
 

LogansDad

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Haha, I imagine the pitcher was thinking something along the lines of "Man, what did I do to piss him off and make him chuck it back at me like that."
 
While the SS and Catcher both shrug their shoulders and simply mumble under their breath, "WTF, mate?"
 

Jed Zeppelin

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This thread made me look up the video of John Valentin's unassisted triple play followed immediately by his lead-off HR in the bottom of the inning. One of the first baseball plays I vividly remember and what I always think about whenever someone says the old "great defensive play next inning great offensive play" saying, even though the triple play was as easy as it gets.
 
What I didn't know until watching the video was that A-Rod played in that game. It was his MLB debut.
 

Rice4HOF

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This sounds like McCarver commending Jeter for tagging up on a deep fly ball. It's what a player is supposed to do. If he ran straight into the tag without causing any delay to the 2nd baseman THAT would be unforgivable.
 

PrometheusWakefield

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Tampa Bay's Alex Cobb just struck out four batters in the third inning.  He's also struck out nine through three innings, but two homers and Will Venable getting on first with a K/WP, then stealing second and third and then scoring on a balk means Cobb has given up 3 runs.  
 
PrometheusWakefield said:
Tampa Bay's Alex Cobb just struck out four batters in the third inning.  He's also struck out nine through three innings, but two homers and Will Venable getting on first with a K/WP, then stealing second and third and then scoring on a balk means Cobb has given up 3 runs.  
In the 3rd: 4 batters, 4 Ks, 1 run. First time that's happened since 1974, per the Rays broadcast.

13 strikeouts in 4 2/3 for Cobb. Pulled when he walked a batter on a full count on his 117th pitch.
 

terrisus

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Hendu At The Wall said:
In the 3rd: 4 batters, 4 Ks, 1 run. First time that's happened since 1974, per the Rays broadcast.

13 strikeouts in 4 2/3 for Cobb. Pulled when he walked a batter on a full count on his 117th pitch.
 
So, 13 strikeouts, at 14/27 of the way through the game. 
Too bad about the pitch count and all the other stuff that had happened throughout the game, could have been interesting.
 

jose melendez

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There was a story in "The Glory of Their Times" about a guy stealing first.
 
There were men on first and third, and they were going for a double steal, but the catcher didn't throw through, so the runner got second and the man on third stayed put.  On a subsequent pitch, the runner on second went back to first to set up the double steal again.  The second time they attempted the double steal it was successful.
 

jose melendez

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PrometheusWakefield said:
Tampa Bay's Alex Cobb just struck out four batters in the third inning.  He's also struck out nine through three innings, but two homers and Will Venable getting on first with a K/WP, then stealing second and third and then scoring on a balk means Cobb has given up 3 runs.  
I believe Wakefield in his brief career as a closer did something like this in KC.
 

DJnVa

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Interesting that it's called a "sac bunt" on the Indians website, when it clearly wasn't, as the bunt has a pretty specific definition in the rulebook.
 

OttoC

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DrewDawg said:
Interesting that it's called a "sac bunt" on the Indians website, when it clearly wasn't, as the bunt has a pretty specific definition in the rulebook.
Not in the box score and it is shown as a ground out, catcher to first, in the play-by-play.
 

DJnVa

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OttoC said:
Not in the box score and it is shown as a ground out, catcher to first, in the play-by-play.
 
I know, but on the video description page is said sac bunt. Know-nothing interns.
 

5/19/13: Mike Aviles takes third on Drew Stubbs' sac bunt, then breaks for the plate when he sees no one is covering and slides in safely