I was a little worried that three days on the bench might have screwed Dalbec up... Going into his last at bat, those fears seemed well founded, but then he came through with a ninth inning homer that could have been a big one.
Also need to point out that that HR was against Chapman.... a power-pitcher. The narrative right now is that he should sit against power pitchers, but what's his sample size against them? And what's his post July 31st sample against them? He clearly needs to be in the game right now and it doesn't matter who he's facing. Old narrative was that he could only hit lefties, but since given more opportunities against righties he's definitely improved post trade deadline.I was a little worried that three days on the bench might have screwed Dalbec up... Going into his last at bat, those fears seemed well founded, but then he came through with a ninth inning homer that could have been a big one.
to be clear, it’s *righty* power pitchers they want to protect him from.Also need to point out that that HR was against Chapman.... a power-pitcher. The narrative right now is that he should sit against power pitchers, but what's his sample size against them? And what's his post July 31st sample against them? He clearly needs to be in the game right now and it doesn't matter who he's facing. Old narrative was that he could only hit lefties, but since given more opportunities against righties he's definitely improved post trade deadline.
I know it was junk time... but not really. That put the game back within reach.
Three days after the trade deadline, in the extra batting cage under Detroit’s Comerica Park, newcomer Kyle Schwarber helped struggling rookie Bobby Dalbec to turn his season around.
The Red Sox had just traded for Schwarber, and most expected him to essentially take over Dalbec’s spot at first base, despite Schwarber having never played the position. That’s how bad things were going for Dalbec.
In 85 games through July 31, Dalbec was hitting .216 with a .659 OPS. He’d drawn just 13 walks compared to 111 strikeouts in that span.
“I wasn’t playing well enough to deserve that everyday job,” Dalbec said.
Rather than feel threatened by the addition of Schwarber, though, Dalbec saw the veteran’s arrival as an opportunity. He texted the lefty slugger shortly after the trade, welcoming him to the team. The two had become acquainted through a mutual friend, Triple-A Worcester left-hander Kyle Hart, who played high school and college ball with Schwarber. Dalbec was part of a group that played the video game Call of Duty together.
https://theathletic.com/2853042/2021/09/28/how-an-early-august-hitting-session-with-kyle-schwarber-turned-bobby-dalbecs-season-around/?redirected=1Over the course of an hour and a half prior to one of the games in Detroit, Schwarber meticulously worked with Dalbec, breaking down nearly every part of his game. Schwarber was still rehabbing from a hamstring injury and felt this was a meaningful way he could contribute, by helping one of his new teammates. For his part, instead of being concerned that the veteran might take his job, Dalbec saw an opportunity and tried to learn from a willing and able teacher.
“Bobby really kind of reminded me of myself, just from the right side,” Schwarber said. “In terms of the swing, the body and things like that. It was kind of an easy conversation to have, he’s such a baseball rat, he wants to have those conversations so we got to talking. It was easier for me too, I came in and was hurt, wasn’t playing and was able to sit down and watch some things and then gradually work your way into a conversation.”
Schwarber helped Dalbec simplify his approach, helping him categorize which areas he really needed to focus on and which ones might not have been as big of a deal as Dalbec originally thought.
“Just a mix of things, swing, helping me get through the ball more, trying to feel like I have a deeper point of contact which actually allows me to pull the ball more instead of trying to force it out there,” Dalbec said. “So he was big for me.”
I'm very glad Schwarber helped.
I totally agree. The fact that it took Schwarber to do this kind of tutoring is an indictment of the Red Sox coaching staff, Cora included.I'm very glad Schwarber helped.
However, I would have loved it more if the RS hitting coach had been able to do this. Who was Franchy's Schwarber?
Or perhaps all it took was a fresh set of eyes or a new perspective. Not that much different than Pedroia diagnosing a glitch in David Price's wind-up a few years ago, or Adrian Gonzalez helping to "fix" David Ortiz after he arrived in 2011. JD Martinez has been credited by multiple teammates for helping them figure something out, like Verdugo a couple months ago or Bogaerts last year or Mookie in 2018. Players talk to each other and seek/give advice to each other all the time. Doesn't mean the coaching staff are incompetent or useless.I totally agree. The fact that it took Schwarber to do this kind of tutoring is an indictment of the Red Sox coaching staff, Cora included.
Among the pleasant surprises in that article, Kyle Hart -- he of the 15.55 ERA in 2020 -- managed to make a positive contribution to the team in an unexpected way. I'm all for it.Rather than feel threatened by the addition of Schwarber, though, Dalbec saw the veteran’s arrival as an opportunity. He texted the lefty slugger shortly after the trade, welcoming him to the team. The two had become acquainted through a mutual friend, Triple-A Worcester left-hander Kyle Hart, who played high school and college ball with Schwarber. Dalbec was part of a group that played the video game Call of Duty together.
Considering that the team is 4th in the AL in runs and OBP, 2nd in SLG, and 3rd in OPS, maybe its an indictment of Dalbec, who simply refused to listen to coaches that were trying to coach him and instead threatened to beat them over the head with his bat. (no that last part didn't actualy happen, i'm just making it up to fit my preferred narrative).I totally agree. The fact that it took Schwarber to do this kind of tutoring is an indictment of the Red Sox coaching staff, Cora included.
Oh for heaven's sakes, how dare you suggest that the constant whinging about the manager and coaching staff is somehow wrongConsidering that the team is 4th in the AL in runs and OBP, 2nd in SLG, and 3rd in OPS, maybe its an indictment of Dalbec ...
I tend to think things like this are fluff in general. I'm a lot of fun at parties. Unfortunately I can't read the article. Hitters and pitchers are always tinkering and when something works, that's the reason. Until it doesn't work anymore. Sometimes it is legit though. Usually it happens at the minor league level and involves a completely revamped swing and/or approach where you can't help but notice it if you had any familiarity with the player. From the quotes, it sounded more mental and like no actual flaw was pointed out. What is simplifying his approach mean? What are the areas Kyle was categorizing as high focus and little focus? Maybe the article actually went into this.I totally agree. The fact that it took Schwarber to do this kind of tutoring is an indictment of the Red Sox coaching staff, Cora included.
I want to be a true believer. He's up to a .244/.313/.514 career line in 534 PA/486 AB with 38bb/193k. 61 xbh, 32 HR. 115 OPS+. That's way better than I ever envisioned. I could see an argument saying he's actually better than his career line if there was a real change in his approach. The lines are different enough to suggest a fall from his current production over the last ~150 PA wouldn't be close to the production he put up in his first ~300 of the year.
I said "maybe."Oh for heaven's sakes, how dare you suggest that the constant whinging about the manager and coaching staff is somehow wrong
if JD opts out, I don't see why there isn't room for Dalbec and Schwarber, depending on the type of deal he's looking for. Casas might be ready some time in 2022, but I doubt it's at the beginning of the season.I just want the record to reflect that I never believed in Red Sox Legend Bobby Dalbec and am ready to admit I'm wrong - like usual.
Despite the development of Casas and given the JD opt out wouldn't it still make a lot of sense to find 400-500 AB's for Dalbec somehow next year? Maybe in lieu of signing Schwarber back?
Sure. But it's not like Dalbec didn't have success in 2020, and wasn't epically bad April, May, June, and July of 2021. And it sounds like Schwarber had him do something other than the hitting coaches were doing. So, that's far beyond JD helping someone tweak their swing to work out of a minor slump. This from the quoted article above:Or perhaps all it took was a fresh set of eyes or a new perspective. Not that much different than Pedroia diagnosing a glitch in David Price's wind-up a few years ago, or Adrian Gonzalez helping to "fix" David Ortiz after he arrived in 2011. JD Martinez has been credited by multiple teammates for helping them figure something out, like Verdugo a couple months ago or Bogaerts last year or Mookie in 2018. Players talk to each other and seek/give advice to each other all the time. Doesn't mean the coaching staff are incompetent or useless.
Personally, if I'd hired a couple of guys to be hitting coaches, I'm going to ask them why/how a 90 minute session, that implicitly says Dalbec was focusing on the wrong things, turns a negative WAR player into a positive one.Over the course of an hour and a half prior to one of the games in Detroit, Schwarber meticulously worked with Dalbec, breaking down nearly every part of his game. . .Schwarber helped Dalbec simplify his approach, helping him categorize which areas he really needed to focus on and which ones might not have been as big of a deal as Dalbec originally thought.
Because Dalbec might be a selfish and uncoachable prick who thought he knew it all after his 2020 cup of coffee?Sure. But it's not like Dalbec didn't have success in 2020, and wasn't epically bad April, May, June, and July of 2021. And it sounds like Schwarber had him do something other than the hitting coaches were doing. So, that's far beyond JD helping someone tweak their swing to work out of a minor slump. This from the quoted article above:
Personally, if I'd hired a couple of guys to be hitting coaches, I'm going to ask them why/how a 90 minute session, that implicitly says Dalbec was focusing on the wrong things, turns a negative WAR player into a positive one.
What's 1 WAR worth again?
That's certainly one possibility.Because Dalbec might be a selfish and uncoachable prick who thought he knew it all after his 2020 cup of coffee?
Or Dalbec started hitting around the same time and attributed his recent success to Schwarber even if it isn't.Because Dalbec might be a selfish and uncoachable prick who thought he knew it all after his 2020 cup of coffee?
Other than the MVP caliber shortstop who was 25 in 2018 the MVP outfielder who was 25 in 2018 and Verdugo who came to the Sox at 24 and has been better than he was with LA?BTW, Hyers has been the hitting coach from 2018 till now. Apart from Devers (absent 2020) and Arroyo (sorta) we haven't had any under age 27 hitters trending upward or holding water. Granted there's a lot of dreck in there. Just an odd factoid.
Its been pointed out several times here that a lot of Dalbec's new found success came against some pretty crappy pitchers. I wonder how much of his improvement was simply do to facing the kind of pitchers he'd succeeded against in the minors, succeeding against them again and then getting some confidence to do better against actual major leaguers as well. That Schwarber arrived at the same time might have contributed as well, but maybe it was just a coincidence.Or Dalbec started hitting around the same time and attributed his recent success to Schwarber even if it isn't.
Forget it he's rolling.Other than the MVP caliber shortstop who was 25 in 2018 the MVP outfielder who was 25 in 2018 and Verdugo who came to the Sox at 24 and has been better than he was with LA?
If he meant post 2018, he's not entirely wrong. One could argue Verdugo got worse. Of course there are only 3 players who would really qualify and he's disqualifying one of them. At least in 2021. Xander held water in 2019 too. Betts did not. Benny didn't.Forget it he's rolling.
-Mookie trended down from 18 to 19 then left.Other than the MVP caliber shortstop who was 25 in 2018 the MVP outfielder who was 25 in 2018 and Verdugo who came to the Sox at 24 and has been better than he was with LA?
Get thee to a game thread.Forget it he's rolling.
Xander is a massively better hitter from 2018- than any year in his career before that, you can just admit you completely spaced on him and own it rather than trying to argue that.-Mookie trended down from 18 to 19 then left.
-Xander improved marginally from 18 to 19, then trended downward.
-Granted 2020 was short, but Verdugo trended downward from 2020 to 2021.
It's a weird factoid that I don't particularly feel indicates anything.
Did you think an idle comment on not having young hitters improve from 18-21 was attacking Cora or something? Which reminds me I don't know anything about you. Is there some personal issue I should be aware of? Feel free to PM me.
Sometimes - someone can tell you something 99 times, and then someone else says the same thing a bit different and then it just “clcks”.I totally agree. The fact that it took Schwarber to do this kind of tutoring is an indictment of the Red Sox coaching staff, Cora included.
You're amazing. But how did you not point out that all of the players on the squad hit better in 2018 than they did in 1995!Xander is a massively better hitter from 2018- than any year in his career before that, you can just admit you completely spaced on him and own it rather than trying to argue that.
Betts had an outlier year in 2018 yes, but he followed it up in 2019 with his 2nd best offensive year and then continued on to LA where he continued to be a better hitter than before 2018.
Who knows how much of that if anything is on the coaching staff, but your idle comment was completely wrong so yes it seems pretty relevant to point out that you ignored the best and maybe 2nd best young position player the Sox have had in the last 10-15 years.
If you ignore the hitters who became good the Sox haven't developed any good young hitters since 2018
Maybe, of course I can't know for sure. We also know the Red Sox are 19th in BB. Here are the top 8 teams in BB: NYY, LAD, SF, MIL, SD, CWS, TB, HOU. Not there's any pattern there or anything. Sox are predictably aggressive and are at the bottom (or top depending on how you look at it) at swinging at balls outside the zone. They routinely fail to approach at bats situationally. So ... at some point SOMETHING'S gotta reflect the coaching, no? Imagine how much better they'd be, if they all did what Dalbec has done via Schwarber's influence. Rather than 4th in runs, maybe they'd be first!Considering that the team is 4th in the AL in runs and OBP, 2nd in SLG, and 3rd in OPS, maybe its an indictment of Dalbec, who simply refused to listen to coaches that were trying to coach him and instead threatened to beat them over the head with his bat. (no that last part didn't actualy happen, i'm just making it up to fit my preferred narrative).
I think they're going to leave Casas in Worcester long enough to set the WooSox/PawSox single season home run record (36). So he should be in Boston by 4th of July weekend.if JD opts out, I don't see why there isn't room for Dalbec and Schwarber, depending on the type of deal he's looking for. Casas might be ready some time in 2022, but I doubt it's at the beginning of the season.
This is indeed an interesting odd factoid that warrants some more inquiry. Here are our hitters who were under 27 at any point during Hyers' tenure, and their OPS+ trajectories in seasons in which they got >50 PA for the Sox. I include 2017 for a pre-Hyers baseline.BTW, Hyers has been the hitting coach from 2018 till now. Apart from Devers (absent 2020) and Arroyo (sorta) we haven't had any under age 27 hitters trending upward or holding water. Granted there's a lot of dreck in there. Just an odd factoid.
Good players having somewhat consistent performances outside one outlier season from Betts and averagish players being less consistent and bouncing around a little more from year to year. Also, that it's hard to take much from 2020. A bad or hot start can have a pretty huge impact on a 200-250 PA sample size. Look no further than Bobby Dalbec in 2021 and the impact his last 2 months have had on his season. His season was a complete disaster until August 1st. You could look at his 2020 season too. It was 92 PA. Pitchers never really got the chance to adjust and he never got the chance to struggle.I wonder if there's a bit of news-y filter built into what we hear about. Hitting coach works with hitter is Dog Bites Man — not a story. But veteran slugger works with young slugger is a heartwarming story of setting aside self-interested considerations about playing time to help the team. So that gets written up.
It has already been documented — e.g. on the @RedSoxStats twitter account that member SoxScout runs — that Dalbec had retooled his approach in May to stop hitting so many "empty" fly balls to right, and instead pulling the ball more in the air. So with that context in hand, it is quite clear that Dalbec was already working on his approach before Schwarber's arrival, and so perhaps Schwarber's contribution here was in helping Dalbec figure out how iron out the nuances of what Hyers and the coaching staff was already working on with him.
Hyers is here because he's in the Francona coaching family tree and because he was with the Dodgers when they were using swing tweaks to turn washed up randos into All Stars. His One Weird Trick may be the on-plane swing path stuff that helped Justin Turner and Chris Taylor and — hmm... — Kiké Hernandez hit for more power. If that's right, then I wouldn't be shocked if he's not the ideal messenger for a guy like Dalbec, for whom getting the ball in the air isn't the issue.
This is indeed an interesting odd factoid that warrants some more inquiry. Here are our hitters who were under 27 at any point during Hyers' tenure, and their OPS+ trajectories in seasons in which they got >50 PA for the Sox. I include 2017 for a pre-Hyers baseline.
It seems like if there's a positive Hyers effect, it mostly happened when he showed up in 2018, when Bogaerts, Betts, Benintendi, and Lin all made big strides. But even then, Vazquez cratered and Devers regressed more mildly. And if anything, the record has been more mixed since then. Do we give Hyers credit for Vazquez' recovery? What about Devers' weird trajectory? Benintendi is clearly the worst count in any indictment of Hyers, but even now that he is far from that malign influence he still only has a 101 OPS+. Betts, similiarly, has been closer to his 2019 performance than to his 2018 career year in his time in LA.
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I guess I'm left wondering what to compare this to. Obviously, if Pittsburgh turns Chavis into a middle of the order bat, that's a huge black eye, but I'd want to see a few more PAs first.
How does the Hyers track record compare to other hitting coaches? What kind of effect size should we be expecting?
If I had to characterize what is going on, I would hypothesize that this is mostly about factors larger than any individual coach. We brought Hyers here to tap into the swing plane trend, and he delivered some real results for us, especially with Bogaerts' and Betts' power numbers. We won a title. Nice. But pitchers have adjusted, and so the returns from that approach have diminished. And now we get to see if Hyers (or the next guy we hire) can figure out what's next.
I dunno — what do you all see?
I don't actually have a horse in this race. I was just curious to see if there were any patterns, and I don't really see any either.Good players having somewhat consistent performances outside one outlier season from Betts and averagish players being less consistent and bouncing around a little more from year to year. Also, that it's hard to take much from 2020. A bad or hot start can have a pretty huge impact on a 200-250 PA sample size. Look no further than Bobby Dalbec in 2021 and the impact his last 2 months have had on his season. His season was a complete disaster until August 1st. You could look at his 2020 season too. It was 92 PA. Pitchers never really got the chance to adjust and he never got the chance to struggle.
Also fringey prospects who were never expected to be regulars so you'd expect them to get worse with any real exposure to MLB pitching and sample sizes so small to be all but meaningless.
The only ones you can really argue got worse were Benny and Vaz. Vaz was good for less than 1.5 seasons and pretty terrible outside of that. He's also 31 so him declining now isn't exactly a shock. He also wasn't under the age of 27 at any time during the 2018 season so he actually doesn't count anyway. If Verdugo doesn't rebound in 2022, he may count.
I don't have a horse either and that was my long winded way of saying I didn't really see any patterns or anything you wouldn't expect to see. I agree a hitting coach doesn't make much of a difference . I'm not sure why you didn't use Chavis full season to date and only his 22 PA in Pittsburg though. In 158 PA in 2020, he has a .636 OPS and a 67 OPS+. In 104 PA in 2021, he has a .636 OPS and a 66 OPS+.I don't actually have a horse in this race. I was just curious to see if there were any patterns, and I don't really see any either.
I'm honestly pretty skeptical about the idea that any given coach has much Value over Replacement Coach. If we ditched Hyers and brought in — I dunno — Eric Hinske, I doubt too much would change.
Eh, just because that's the post-Hyers sample. It is a pretty dumb way to do it statistically, I totally agree, but I thought people here might find it interesting to know what's up with Chavis.I don't have a horse either and that was my long winded way of saying I didn't really see any patterns or anything you wouldn't expect to see. I agree a hitting coach doesn't make much of a difference . I'm not sure why you didn't use Chavis full season to date and only his 22 PA in Pittsburg though. In 158 PA in 2020, he has a .636 OPS and a 67 OPS+. In 104 PA in 2021, he has a .636 OPS and a 66 OPS+.
Of course? He slashed .269/.344/.611 in the 2nd half last year.Was just talking 2023 with a buddy.
If Bobby Dalbec has a strong 2022...thinking on par with his 2nd half of 2021....any scenario where he gets the first crack at filling the DH role if the Sox don't re-sign JD (and, of course, assuming Casas is ready to come up).
Thinking is that it would free up a lot of $ to extend Devers and Bogaerts.
It would make him the youngest full-time DH (in age and arb years) besides Yordan Alvarez, who has chronic knee issues, and even he was been pushed into outfield duty last year. Khris Davis didn’t do it until his first arb year (age 29).Was just talking 2023 with a buddy.
If Bobby Dalbec has a strong 2022...thinking on par with his 2nd half of 2021....any scenario where he gets the first crack at filling the DH role if the Sox don't re-sign JD (and, of course, assuming Casas is ready to come up).
Thinking is that it would free up a lot of $ to extend Devers and Bogaerts.
And yet that wasn't enough to earn him regular playing time in the post season.Of course? He slashed .269/.344/.611 in the 2nd half last year.
That team had JD at DH. His scenario for 2023 has no JD.And yet that wasn't enough to earn him regular playing time in the post season.
He started the first two games of that post-season. The second game against a lefty starter (McClanahan). He went 0-for-8.And yet that wasn't enough to earn him regular playing time in the post season.