The Michael McCorkle "Mac" Jones Thread

Marciano490

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Yeah there’s endless literature from the 60s Soviets onward about the need to train muscle groups to fire explosively through coordinate explosive training. This isn’t some CrossFit box fad movement. The strength community is extraordinarily online and collaborative. If any athlete ever was injured doing these or another exercise, maybe they’d be reconsidered, but how often do you ever hear about a D1 or pro athlete having a weight room injury? Everyone involved knows what they’re doing. Even more so than us here.
 

reggiecleveland

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Yeah there’s endless literature from the 60s Soviets onward about the need to train muscle groups to fire explosively through coordinate explosive training. This isn’t some CrossFit box fad movement. The strength community is extraordinarily online and collaborative. If any athlete ever was injured doing these or another exercise, maybe they’d be reconsidered, but how often do you ever hear about a D1 or pro athlete having a weight room injury? Everyone involved knows what they’re doing. Even more so than us here.
Around 1990 a few of my buddies (physiotherapist, strength coach, , football coach) flew to Germany, and paid a lot to listen to the first lecture of the two most renowned Iron Curtain strength coaches one a Russian, one an East German. That the presentation was in mostly handwritten overhead projector slides added to the excitement they were getting some ancient, hard-earned knowledge. The presentation began with a list of the accomplishments of their athletes. Finally, they said they would get to the three most important secrets to their success. Pens scratched on notebooks as they revealed each slide.

1. Athlete Identification.
muscle type, heights, body type, can be predicted accurately at young ages
2. Speed-force training
combining traditional strength movements, with speed power in a sport-specific way transferred power to the decisive moments of competition.

Then they smiled this was the real secret to their success.
3. Massive doses of Anabolic Steroids
 
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Marciano490

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Around 1990 a few of my buddies (physiotherapist, strength coach, , football coach) flew to Germany, and paid a lot to listen to the first lecture of the two most renowned Iron Curtain strength coaches one a Russian, one an East German. That the presentation was in mostly handwritten overhead projector slides added to the excitement they were getting some ancient, hard-earned knowledge. The presentation began with a list of the accomplishments of their allies. Finally, they said they would get to the three most important secrets to their success. Pens scratched on notebooks as they revealed each slide.

1. Athlete Identification.
muscle type, heights, body type, can be predicted accurately at young ages
2. Speed-force training
combining traditional strength movements, with speed power in a sport-specific way transferred power to the decisive moments of competition.
Then they smiled this was the real secret to their success.

3. Massive doses of Anabolic Steroids
Yup. The secret to creating successful athletes - genetics genetics genetics steroids genetics hard work/coaching nutrition/sleep steroids genetics.
 

leftfieldlegacy

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I have to weigh in with Marciano here, that exercise is about core strength, stabilization and balance

you wanted explosive because the weight is actually being lifted/propelled above your head by your core can you simply lock out with your triceps at the top there’s very little shoulder that goes into that

So when he’s doing those he is training his core to be explosive which is where the power comes from for throwing athlete
I went back and looked at the video again and I have to disagree with the bolded Doc. While momentum plays a role in that movement there is still significant anterior deltoid activation prior to the triceps kicking in to get the arm to its final position. And to be clear I don't think this particular exercise is going to cause any immediate injury. It's just when dealing with young throwers, select the shoulder exercises as carefully as possible. The rest of the exercise is fine. It is a good dynamic lower body/trunk exercise that works on quad and glute strength and finishes with trunk rotation to rapidly open the hips which exactly mimics the lower body motion during a throw.
 
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Marciano490

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I went back and looked at the video again and I have to disagree with the bolded Doc. While momentum plays a role in that movement there is still significant anterior deltoid activation prior to the triceps kicking in to get the arm to its final position. And to be clear I don't think this particular exercise is going to cause any immediate injury. It's just when dealing with young throwers, select the shoulder exercises as carefully as possible. The rest of the exercise is fine. It is a good dynamic lower body/trunk exercise that works on quad and glute strength and finishes with trunk rotation to rapidly open the hips which exactly mimics the lower body motion during a throw.
Yeah, he’s not doing it perfectly. People always wanna use their arms instead of their body. It’s like people doing those medicine ball throws that should be like 90% core with their arms as levers but they end up just throwing stuff. That’s Mac not being an incredible athlete though, and not the fault of the exercise. In fact, the point of the exercise is probably in part to build that coordination as opposed to just loading up on more isolated movements.
 

doc

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Do the exercise and feel it, and you’ll see what I mean. Yes the delts get involved but more as guiding the trajectory prior to lock out
 

Spelunker

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Yeah, he’s not doing it perfectly. People always wanna use their arms instead of their body. It’s like people doing those medicine ball throws that should be like 90% core with their arms as levers but they end up just throwing stuff. That’s Mac not being an incredible athlete though, and not the fault of the exercise. In fact, the point of the exercise is probably in part to build that coordination as opposed to just loading up on more isolated movements.
Right: part of him doing that is likely to get better at that mind-body coordination and full chain activation, rather than just relying on his arm.
 

leftfieldlegacy

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Yeah, he’s not doing it perfectly. People always wanna use their arms instead of their body. It’s like people doing those medicine ball throws that should be like 90% core with their arms as levers but they end up just throwing stuff. That’s Mac not being an incredible athlete though, and not the fault of the exercise. In fact, the point of the exercise is probably in part to build that coordination as opposed to just loading up on more isolated movements.
I guess I'd ask what are you trying to coordinate with this exercise. The lower body stuff is fine. Well designed and likely effective. Works on all the things you mentioned: balance coordination and explosiveness. But the most important thing is that it is a functional exercise for a QB. It mimics exactly what a QB needs his lower body and trunk to do to throw a football. It's just that last arm movement that I don't like because it mimics no part of throwing motion and puts his shoulder in a comprimised position. As I posted before, it is a shot put movement and would be an excellent exercise for that athlete but it is non functional for a throwing athlete. I just think there could be a better designed exercise to accomplish the benefits you talked about.
 

leftfieldlegacy

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Do the exercise and feel it, and you’ll see what I mean. Yes the delts get involved but more as guiding the trajectory prior to lock out
Do that exercise? You'd have to write me a Rx for a months supply of pain meds. I get your point and if there was no weight on the bar I'd be inclined to agree. I just see more deltoid activity there than you do.
 

BigJimEd

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The landmine exercise in and of itself is not the problem and it can be a good way to build deltoid strength. However, If you are a pitcher or QB, using that device properly to protect the rotator cuff is key. That means avoiding elevating the shoulder above 90 degrees and lifting slowly. If you watch this guy's video at 1:10, 2:10 and 2:50 you can see what I mean. The weight is only the bar itself or 1 plate and his shoulder never goes above parallel to the floor and this guy has some major delts. That "over elevation" is the part of Mac's exercise that I don't like. Not to mention that the pushing motion at the end has no functional application to throwing. He is elevating beyond 90 and doing so in a poorly controlled manner (too fast). There are many ways to train fast twitch fibers that are safe and functional to strengthen throwing muscles. Mac's exercise is not a particularly good one to accomplish that goal.
I'm no expert and not very familiar with that exercise. Just relaying the fact that there are some pitchers doing that specific and similar exercises at the D1 level.
 

Marciano490

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I guess I'd ask what are you trying to coordinate with this exercise. The lower body stuff is fine. Well designed and likely effective. Works on all the things you mentioned: balance coordination and explosiveness. But the most important thing is that it is a functional exercise for a QB. It mimics exactly what a QB needs his lower body and trunk to do to throw a football. It's just that last arm movement that I don't like because it mimics no part of throwing motion and puts his shoulder in a comprimised position. As I posted before, it is a shot put movement and would be an excellent exercise for that athlete but it is non functional for a throwing athlete. I just think there could be a better designed exercise to accomplish the benefits you talked about.
Gym movements aren’t supposed to exactly mimic on field movements. Like, what’s a squad or a power clean look like on a football field.

I’m sorry, I’m not trying to pull rank here, but I’m pulling rank here. This is how pro athletes train. This is how s&c coaches with a ton of experience train their athletes. It’s not meathead science.
 

doc

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Do that exercise? You'd have to write me a Rx for a months supply of pain meds. I get your point and if there was no weight on the bar I'd be inclined to agree. I just see more deltoid activity there than you do.
Do we at least get a video to watch?
 

leftfieldlegacy

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Gym movements aren’t supposed to exactly mimic on field movements. Like, what’s a squad or a power clean look like on a football field.

I’m sorry, I’m not trying to pull rank here, but I’m pulling rank here. This is how pro athletes train. This is how s&c coaches with a ton of experience train their athletes. It’s not meathead science.
Not all gym movements are designed to mimic on field movements. That's true. But the one Mac was doing was and that was the one we were discussing.

An offensive lineman exploding out of a 3 point stance to run block = Squat. A receiver or D back elevating to high point the ball = squat
A defensive lineman using his legs to get under an OL and his hands to shed a block or a swim move = power clean.
Meathead science. Really?
 

Marciano490

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Not all gym movements are designed to mimic on field movements. That's true. But the one Mac was doing was and that was the one we were discussing.

An offensive lineman exploding out of a 3 point stance to run block = Squat. A receiver or D back elevating to high point the ball = squat
A defensive lineman using his legs to get under an OL and his hands to shed a block or a swim move = power clean.
Meathead science. Really?
Dude, squats are up and down, OLinemen explode forward. You’re making my point.
 

leftfieldlegacy

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Dude, squats are up and down, OLinemen explode forward. You’re making my point.
A squat involves flexion of the hips and knees on the way down using an eccentric contraction of the quads and glutes and hip and knee extension on the way up involving a concentric contraction of those same muscles. An OL run blocking out of a 3 point stance is using the exact same joint motion and the exact same concentric contraction of the same muscles as he is in the up motion of a squat just with a different spine angle. If you think there's a difference in the muscles being trained by a squat and those used to "explode forward" I'd love to know.
 

Marciano490

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What’s happening here? A squat incorporates a variety of muscle groups coordinating to execute a loaded movement that is kinda sorta similar to coming out of a crouch to block. Like the exercise you’re criticizing. There is almost nothing in a weight room that looks exactly like anything done on a field or in a ring.

Like what’s the cue coming out of the hole on a squat versus coming out of a crouch to block downfield? What muscles are you leading with and are you pushing up, out or forward?
 

Preacher

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What’s happening here? A squat incorporates a variety of muscle groups coordinating to execute a loaded movement that is kinda sorta similar to coming out of a crouch to block. Like the exercise you’re criticizing. There is almost nothing in a weight room that looks exactly like anything done on a field or in a ring.

Like what’s the cue coming out of the hole on a squat versus coming out of a crouch to block downfield? What muscles are you leading with and are you pushing up, out or forward?
All I know is if he’s lifting every other day, that’s 4 times a week.
 

doc

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If we’re going off on a tangent on how offensive and defensive lineman should train, asymmetrical training is one of the key components because somebody doesn’t apply force to you in a symmetrical way so doing asymmetrical power cleans with barbells loaded with slightly different plate loads on either end or with dumbbell/kettle bells of different weights in either hand as well as the landmine exercises are a key component
 

Jimbodandy

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Marciano is correct. Those are mouse weights on a landmine, and that lift (which is really fucking satisfying to do) is much more about developing all of the weak link support muscles than developing his deltoids. Good exercise for a flabby guy to be doing imo.
 

slamminsammya

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I am lost in this last page or two. Someone sum it up for me - is he going to the pro bowl next year or not? And does this landmine drill get him better receivers?
 

DJnVa

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I am lost in this last page or two. Someone sum it up for me - is he going to the pro bowl next year or not? And does this landmine drill get him better receivers?
We have more experts than the Alabama staff. I mean, they don't ever win anything so. :)

(all in good fun, it's an interesting back and forth)
 

Niastri

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We have more experts than the Alabama staff. I mean, they don't ever win anything so. :)

(all in good fun, it's an interesting back and forth)
This is a good point... If I was going to trust one of the Patriots to work out off season with a college team's training staff, Alabama would be the team I would choose.

They aren't just a recruiting juggernaut, they seem to do everything right.
 

BroodsSexton

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This is awesome. It’s like a slap fight between lawyers over the proper application of the equal protection clause. (in fact i think i’ve seen that one from @Marciano490 before)
 

FL4WL3SS

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If we’re going off on a tangent on how offensive and defensive lineman should train, asymmetrical training is one of the key components because somebody doesn’t apply force to you in a symmetrical way so doing asymmetrical power cleans with barbells loaded with slightly different plate loads on either end or with dumbbell/kettle bells of different weights in either hand as well as the landmine exercises are a key component
This is spot on. I've soured a lot on barbell training. There's a place for heavy compound movements, especially for bodybuilding, but athletes need unilateral and asymmetrical training for explosiveness and to reduce injury.
 

Marciano490

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This is spot on. I've soured a lot on barbell training. There's a place for heavy compound movements, especially for bodybuilding, but athletes need unilateral and asymmetrical training for explosiveness and to reduce injury.
I always did heavy compound movements to build a base for overall strength/power, then get more specific as the workout progresses.
 

Gash Prex

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As we are heading into OTAs tomorrow time to get excited for Mac Jones year 2 via the Globe (sic) the Athletic

“Jones has spent long hours at Gillette Stadium, often beating the coaching staff into the building to get a jump-start on film study for the day,” Howe wrote. “He is also taking ownership of the offense, willing to vouch for plays and concepts that he likes and pump the brakes on the stuff that hasn’t worked.”

“New England veterans have been extremely encouraged with the team chemistry this offseason,” Howe wrote. “The free-agent additions have meshed well in the locker room, and there’s been a different vibe over the past month.”
https://www.boston.com/sports/new-england-patriots/2022/05/22/mac-jones-patriots-ecstatic-offseason-workouts-nkeal-harry-nfl-trade-rumors/?s_campaign=bcom:socialflow:twitter

Edit: it was the globe and not the herald, apologies to the Herald
 
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kenneycb

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Gash Prex

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Gash Prex

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Uh isn't boston.com the Globe, not the Herald?
Yes - that is correct. I should have just cut out the middle newspaper and cited the Athletic but I thought it was interesting to note that local reporters don't seem to have very good sources.