Super Bowl LVII - Chiefs vs Eagles in Glendale

[Traut]

Thinking about it this morning. A few things stand out:

1. Mahomes is in the midst of an all-time great career. No idea where it all ends up but he’s in an elite handful of quarterbacks all time. And he played every bit that last night;

2. Chiefs half time adjustments were the difference;

3. It was a great game that felt like it deserved a great ending and it didn’t deliver in that way; and

4. The field sucked. It would have been a better game on another surface.

To think Mahomes was faking it. You are nuts.

Also the holding call is something I’m meh on. That sometimes gets called and sometimes doesn’t. I come down on the side of it shouldn’t have been called but it’s hardly something way out of the norm.

 

[The Napkin]

And the flag should be coming out when the penalty happens, not 3 seconds later as the ball is hitting the ground. It was a bad call considering how the game had been called to that point regardless but the fact the flag comes out as the ball is hitting the ground is what really makes it look terrible considering the marginal hold took place at the LOS.

the ref literally went to grab the flag within a second of the hold. it's in the air before the ball hits the ground.
what are we even doing here? you people aren't dealing in reality.

https://www.foxsports.com/watch/play-635d37b80000ccb

 

[Ferm Sheller]

One of these years if/when the NFL moves to an 18 game schedule, the Super Bowl might get pushed back to President's Day weekend. I'm all for that, gets us one week closer to March / spring.

I've always wanted them to move the Super Bowl to Saturday, but I understand why they won't, so a great alternative would be to move it to the Sunday before President's Day.

 

[Ed Hillel]

He held him twice, and prevented him from getting open for the winning score for an offense that was absolutely carving up the defense.

So I guess my question is which if the two holds that prevented him from getting open was “marginal”? Do you also think that the NFL might have bribed the defender to admit to the penalty?

I know, I know: the hold actually helped the receiver.

You have to at least appreciate the irony to you, of all people, complaining about people complaining about officiating. Your Bruins threads are legendary (though I can’t say I disagree, the bad calls always seem to go against those Big Bad Bruins and the league hates Marchand).

He also didn’t hold him twice .

 

[Myt1]

My personal favorite was the mini drama that was scolding posters for pointing out that Rihanna was visibly and obviously pregnant.

I really wish that I hadn’t searched for that exchange.

 

[j44thor]

the ref literally went to grab the flag within a second of the hold. it's in the air before the ball hits the ground.
what are we even doing here? you people aren't dealing in reality.

https://www.foxsports.com/watch/play-635d37b80000ccb

We clearly aren't watching the same play I guess? The one I'm watching that you linked the flag is landing in the end zone about a 1/2 second after the ball does the hold is at the 15yrd line much earlier in the play.

 

[The Napkin]

You have to at least appreciate the irony to you, of all people, complaining about people complaining about officiating. Your Bruins threads are legendary (though I can’t say I disagree, the bad calls always seem to go against those Big Bad Bruins and the league hates Marchand).

He also didn’t hold him twice .

grabs him once when he makes the break
grabs him again as he's spinning past him
hell, you could make a case there was a third garb

 

[CoffeeNerdness]

The holding call wasn't even the most controversial decision of the night. Who the hell picks ground turkey when they're on the top level in Next Level Chef? Appaling.

 

[BigSoxFan]

KC didn’t do much on defense but they did do a great job on Philly’s RBs:

17-45 (2.6 YPC)

 

[Devizier]

Not only that but it also neutralized the strength of the Philly D, their DL. Not really sure what Philly could have done differently though. Maybe try more blitzes to see if you can get Mahomes to make a bad throw.

They got absolutely roasted on blitzes. Like hilariously bad. I enjoyed the ballsiness in continuing to call them though.

 

[Myt1]

You have to at least appreciate the irony to you, of all people, complaining about people complaining about officiating. Your Bruins threads are legendary (though I can’t say I disagree, the bad calls always seem to go against those Big Bad Bruins and the league hates Marchand).

He also didn’t hold him twice .

There are years of data on the Bruins issue that largely speak for themselves at this point. You can believe that there’s something there or you can believe that a team that largely possesses the puck at a much higher rate than its opposition and has an impressive goal differential nonetheless takes more penalties than their opponents in the same games, across three different coaching staffs and a decade and a half.

I guess I’ll say that my floor for complaining about a complete ratfucking by the officials is just above the “Infractions that the defender committed twice on the same play and then admitted to after the game.”

It just feels really weird to have the discussion start below that.

 

[CoffeeNerdness]

grabs him once when he makes the break
grabs him again as he's spinning past him
hell, you could make a case there was a third garb

View attachment 61156

View attachment 61157

View attachment 61158

The first and third screencaps aren't holds.

 

[Ed Hillel]

grabs him once when he makes the break
grabs him again as he's spinning past him
hell, you could make a case there was a third garb

View attachment 61156

View attachment 61157

View attachment 61158

Hard to see much from these angles tbh. The video makes clear a tug on the break, don’t see much beyond that.

 

[The Napkin]

We clearly aren't watching the same play I guess? The one I'm watching that you linked the flag is landing in the end zone about a 1/2 second after the ball does the hold is at the 15yrd line much earlier in the play.

I'm really sorry that reality disagrees with you here

just after the hold. note the time of the video



ref grabbing the flag. note the time of the video. also note the ball in the air


flag in the air. note the time of the video

 

[Myt1]

I think it was a bad call for the moment, but it's not like we never see that type of jersey tug get called. Happens rather often, tbh.



He didn't hold him twice. He came out of the break and got his jersey tugged and when he move upfield he wasn't being held. The jersey tug was marginal, but certainly gets called many, many times over the course of an NFL season.

He hooked his hip after the jersey tug.

 

[ngruz25]

The call is upsetting because we were primed for an exciting, memorable final two minutes to a great football game on the biggest stage in American sports and instead were treated to a sloggish march to 0:00 on the clock. It's hard to overcome that emotional letdown.

 

[j44thor]

I'm rally sorry that reality disagrees with you here

just after the hold. note the time of the video

View attachment 61159

ref grabbing the flag. note the time of the video. also note the ball in the air
View attachment 61160

flag in the air. note the time of the video

View attachment 61161

That isn't the hold so thanks for proving my point.

 

[The Napkin]

And the flag should be coming out when the penalty happens, not 3 seconds later as the ball is hitting the ground. It was a bad call considering how the game had been called to that point regardless but the fact the flag comes out as the ball is hitting the ground is what really makes it look terrible considering the marginal hold took place at the LOS.

sorry, this you?

 

[Myt1]

I hope the Pats can start another 20 year run of unprecedented success with a few dynasties sprinkled in soon, so future post-season Lombardi threads don't read like R&D/outtakes from TheGangGreen or Charlie's conspiracy board from Always Sunny.

"I don't have a dog in this fight" based on the previous history of this thread is "I hate KC." Which, fine. But following that up with disingenuous "at minute 58 the refs took away my pure enjoyment of football, a game I love for love of game" in the year of our lord 2023 is, like, a hell of a wistful take for most regular NE sports fans who routinely follow the NFL on this board.

The wincing loss of innocence has reached ludricrous "the day the music died" Don McLean American Pie levels, which is a heck of a thing to see.

To be fair, I assume that most everyone in the thread was way drunker than I last night.

 

[Ed Hillel]

There are years of data on the Bruins issue that largely speak for themselves at this point. You can believe that there’s something there or you can believe that a team that largely possesses the puck at a much higher rate than its opposition and has an impressive goal differential nonetheless takes more penalties than their opponents in the same games, across three different coaching staffs and a decade and a half.

I guess I’ll say that my floor for complaining about a complete ratfucking by the officials is just above the “Infractions that the defender committed twice on the same play and then admitted to after the game.”

It just feels really weird to have the discussion start below that.

Keep in mind we all just saw an obvious ratfucking of the Bengals a couple weeks ago in favor of the Chiefs, so that’s on people’s minds as well. Also, people hate winners.

 

[j44thor]

The call is upsetting because we were primed for an exciting, memorable final two minutes to a great football game on the biggest stage in American sports and instead were treated to a sloggish march to 0:00 on the clock. It's hard to overcome that emotional letdown.

Exactly this, would have been an incredible ending if KC is held to the FG there or hell scores a TD. Gifting KC the win on a silver platter is what is so infuriating about it all.

 

[CoffeeNerdness]

He hooked gently and lovingly caressed his hip after the jersey tug.

 

[Myt1]

There are years of data on the Bruins issue that largely speak for themselves at this point. You can believe that there’s something there or you can believe that a team that largely possesses the puck at a much higher rate than its opposition and has an impressive goal differential nonetheless takes more penalties than their opponents in the same games, across three different coaching staffs and a decade and a half.

I guess I’ll say that my floor for complaining about a complete ratfucking by the officials is just above the “Infractions that the defender committed twice on the same play and then admitted to after the game.”

It just feels really weird to have the discussion start below that.

Keep in mind we all just saw an obvious ratfucking of the Bengals a couple weeks ago in favor of the Chiefs, so that’s on people’s minds as well. Also, people hate winners.

See, I can get behind that. There’s so much good shit to complain about, that we should eschew this margarine.

 

[Myt1]

Loving caresses.

I didn’t think you were going to be able to beat the ground Turkey post, but this is strong.

 

[cornwalls@6]

I still think the call was very tricky tack , and terribly timed within the context of the rest of the game. Would’ve much rather seen things resolved without it. However, my big takeaway is not that. It’s the adjustments Reid, and his entire staff, made at the half on both sides of the ball. Just schooled them. We all witnessed for 20 years what a difference having the best coach and the best player makes in big games, and how much it mitigates whatever overall roster advantages an opponent may have. That was on full display again last night.

 

[j44thor]

sorry, this you?

Your first screen shot is the marginal hold, not when he is placing his hand on his back which isn't a penalty whatsover no matter how much you screen shot it. When he comes out of the break, I guess technically the 13yd line, I wasn't zaprudering the film, is when he has the jersey but it doesn't appear to impede him, certainly not enough to determine the outcome of the SB. The rest of the play is not at all holding whatsoever.

 

[Mooch]

What's particularly funny about the way the NFL talking heads and press are legitimizing the holding call from last night is pretty much the exact OPPOSITE way they treated this non-call (which was FAR more egregious in my opinion) from 10 years ago:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/columnist/bell/2013/02/04/super-bowl-xlvii-non-call-ravens-49ers-michael-crabtree-jimmy-smith/1891659/

 

[canderson]

Thinking about it this morning. A few things stand out:

1. Mahomes is in the midst of an all-time great career. No idea where it all ends up but he’s in an elite handful of quarterbacks all time. And he played every bit that last night;

He's already top 5, no? And he's only played 5 seasons.

Brady
Montana
Manning
Mahomes
Elway/Marino/Brees/etc

If he stays healthy, he has a pretty good shot at surpassing Brady. Which is insane.

 

[BigSoxFan]

Some pretty good options for NFL for the kickoff game next season

Eagles
Bengals
Bills
Dolphins

Guessing Bengals or Bills.

 

[The Napkin]

Your first screen shot is the marginal hold, not when he is placing his hand on his back which isn't a penalty whatsover no matter how much you screen shot it. When he comes out of the break, I guess technically the 13yd line, I wasn't zaprudering the film, is when he has the jersey but it doesn't appear to impede him, certainly not enough to determine the outcome of the SB. The rest of the play is not at all holding whatsoever.

so just as a remimder you said, "the fact the flag comes out as the ball is hitting the ground is what really makes it look terrible." Except the flag didn't come out as the ball is hitting the ground. Facts matter.

 

[Mooch]

He's already top 5, no? And he's only played 5 seasons.

Brady
Montana
Manning
Mahomes
Elway/Marino/Brees/etc

If he stays healthy, he has a pretty good shot at surpassing Brady. Which is insane.

He's not there yet. While I think Mahomes will be among the greatest, you can't say that he's above even Steve Young career-wise at this point. But the trajectory is obvious.

 

[Ed Hillel]

He's already top 5, no? And he's only played 5 seasons.

Brady
Montana
Manning
Mahomes
Elway/Marino/Brees/etc

If he stays healthy, he has a pretty good shot at surpassing Brady. Which is insane.

A pretty good shot?

I think people forget how quickly things can turn in the NFL. Most QB don’t play to 45, especially mobile ones. He needs to win 5 more Superbowls. That’s a lot.

 

[Bowhemian]

He's already top 5, no? And he's only played 5 seasons.

Brady
Montana
Manning
Mahomes
Elway/Marino/Brees/etc

If he stays healthy, he has a pretty good shot at surpassing Brady. Which is insane.

Don't disagree with your overall point, however IF he stays healthy is a huge qualifier. If he keeps running around like he does, he will not stay healthy for many years. And that part of his game is paramount to his success

 

[j44thor]

so just as a remimder you said, "the fact the flag comes out as the ball is hitting the ground is what really makes it look terrible." Except the flag didn't come out as the ball is hitting the ground. Facts matter.

Again I didn't zapruder the film like you did, the flag came out a lot closer to the ball hitting the ground than when the initial and only infraction on the play happened which was as JuJu is breaking out of his whip route, before he turns up field and before they are any where near the end zone which is where the ball and flag lands. I don't feel like screen shotting but look at your own link and you will see the flag cross Bradberry as they are both in the end zone. The flag comes out after it is obvious it isn't being caught even though the holding was the equivalent of offensive line holding as it takes place at the LOS well before the play develops. Either way I'm done here as I have no interest in going frame by frame. I think the call was terrible in the context of how the game was called. You simply can't call one defensive holding all game and have that decide the SB unless it was blatantly obvious and not something that happens multiple times per game every single game.

 

[8slim]

It was an entertaining game between two teams that I really don’t care about.

Honestly I find the dynamic of people being aggressively anti-Chiefs because 2 Super Bowls is encroaching on the Pats and Brady to be a bit silly. I mean hate them for whatever reason you want, but no one is taking away the past 20 years from the Pats. Other teams get to win too.

I’ve been blathering on all season about how the game is over-officiated. But of course one way to avoid that last call is to refrain from grabbing a handful of jersey. People love to go to the “it happens on every play” bit, but it really doesn’t. Not like that.

If someone wants to show us the half dozen times it happened to Philly receivers in similar situations I’ll totally change my tune.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

The holding call wasn't even the most controversial decision of the night. Who the hell picks ground turkey when they're on the top level in Next Level Chef? Appaling.

I’m not sure which I was rooting for more….Hamlin to begin breathing again on the field or that lady from Alabama to rebound from her previous disaster by nailing that steak!!

 

[BigSoxFan]

A pretty good shot?

I think people forget how quickly things can turn in the NFL. Most QB don’t play to 45, especially mobile ones. He needs to win 5 more Superbowls. That’s a lot.

He actually needs to win 6. Brady took him out twice H2H so you can’t really give Mahomes the tiebreaker although I’m sure many would if he somehow got to 7. Personally, I see 1-2 more for Mahomes. Hard to know what his career will be like in his 30s without Reid and Kelce.

 

[Beale13]

Just a miserably bad call in that situation. I'm with the folks making the very clearly correct point that refs have to have some situational awareness and should be raising their thresholds for penalty-inducing contact significantly when making any call that is going to clearly decide the outcome of the game. You just cannot, under these circumstances, be deciding the game based on contact that occurs on practically every play in football.

Probably shouldn't be letting Bradberry completely off the hook here either, since he had one single job on that play, which was to make sure that literally anything happened other than a first down. If Bradberry's receiver wants to run into the end zone on that play, he shouldn't be touching him.

It always amazes me how bad the strategy is in late-game situations from defenses who would be vastly better off letting the other team score as soon as possible.

 

[BaseballJones]

He actually needs to win 6. Brady took him out twice H2H so you can’t really give Mahomes the tiebreaker although I’m sure many would if he somehow got to 7. Personally, I see 1-2 more for Mahomes. Hard to know what his career will be like in his 30s without Reid and Kelce.

I don’t really agree with this, though I totally see where you’re coming from. If Mahomes wins five Super Bowls, but wins six MVPs, and puts up numbers that dwarf Brady, he’s probably going to be considered the greatest of all time regardless of being a couple of Super Bowls short of Brady. Because the individual stuff does matter. I do think Brady beating him head to head twice in the later rounds of the playoffs is a fairly big deal but I don’t necessarily think that Mahomes needs to win as many or more Super Bowls as pretty to be considered the greatest of all time. Certainly not in the eyes of many football fans and pundits anyway.

 

[CoffeeNerdness]

Letting the other team score is hard countered by the offense simply going down in the field of play. People in the game thread were screaming for the Eagles to let the Chiefs score well before they had seemingly held them to a field goal, which seems like the optimal strategy if you actually want to win the game. Seems like a strategy that's almost wholly reliant on a clueless offensive player saying "Man, these idiots aren't even trying to tackle me. I'm headed to paydirt, baby!"

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

I still think the call was very tricky tack , and terribly timed within the context of the rest of the game.

That is my perception too. Just crazy that there were 67 pass attempts plus sacks and that was the only hold/PI. In the context of the game, it is hard to believe that was the breaking point where they decided “oh, we have to call that one.” Tack on that our resident ref who has built up a fair amount of credibility here says that his reaction in real time was to take a pass, and it feels like it was a call that did not need to be made. At a minimum, I think it seems clear there is a fair amount of discretion in whether to make that call.

In a context where making the call is championship decisive in even a way that a TD would not have been, that is tough to take as a fan. Could the other 66 have been clean? Sure. I don’t know. Doubtful.

I am not alleging there was a fix or anything. Just that a guy made a call that did not need to be made that in context gave a disproportionate advantage in comparison to the alleged infraction committed to one team on the single most important play of the 2022 NFL season.

 

[Jungleland]

Wasn't in here for a ton of last night so this may have already been covered, but I keep coming back to the time out Sirianni wasted to avoid a delay of game. I'm trying to find some data on 3rd down conversion rates at 11 yards vs 16 and coming up short. (According to this reddit thread about the 2018 season, it was about 2.5 times as likely to convert the shorter distance that year, but I'd like something that looks at more data, and is more nuanced with regards to elite offenses vs league average.) But I can't help but think the value of having 3 time outs in an end game situation should trump almost any individual situation where you don't ABSOLUTELY NEED a first down to keep the game alive.

 

[Hoya81]

He's already top 5, no? And he's only played 5 seasons.

Brady
Montana
Manning
Mahomes
Elway/Marino/Brees/etc

If he stays healthy, he has a pretty good shot at surpassing Brady. Which is insane.

It'll be tough. His contract going forward is enormous and Kelce isn't getting any younger. And the AFC is so stocked with young QB talent that it'll be that much more difficult to make a deep playoff run.

 

[Toe Nash]

I still think the call was very tricky tack , and terribly timed within the context of the rest of the game. Would’ve much rather seen things resolved without it. However, my big takeaway is not that. It’s the adjustments Reid, and his entire staff, made at the half on both sides of the ball. Just schooled them. We all witnessed for 20 years what a difference having the best coach and the best player makes in big games, and how much it mitigates whatever overall roster advantages an opponent may have. That was on full display again last night.

Reid made adjustments I guess, but if Hurts didn't drop the ball and the Eagles' punter hadn't made the worst kick of his career (did he slip?) it wouldn't have mattered. The Hurts fumble was so huge as it would have likely been 24-7 at the half. For whatever adjustments Reid made, the Eagles still held the ball for a nearly 8- minute drive and I bet if they had a 3-score lead they could have held on.

Eagles beat themselves.

 

[BaseballJones]

It'll be tough. His contract going forward is enormous and Kelce isn't getting any younger. And the AFC is so stocked with young QB talent that it'll be that much more difficult to make a deep playoff run.

Honestly, watching Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, and even Herbert smash against each other every year is a pretty exciting prospect. Oh and Mac too. Can’t forget about him.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Wasn't in here for a ton of last night so this may have already been covered, but I keep coming back to the time out Sirianni wasted to avoid a delay of game. I'm trying to find some data on 3rd down conversion rates at 11 yards vs 16 and coming up short. But I can't help but think the value of having 3 time outs in an end game situation should trump almost any individual situation where you don't ABSOLUTELY NEED a first down to keep the game alive.

You also have to add in the risk that 5 yards adds to the field goal attempt. At the 20, 5 yards matters. Sack or hold on third down can take you out of range, etc. I don’t know what the right answer is, but field position and score matters in addition to down and distance.

 

[BigSoxFan]

I don’t really agree with this, though I totally see where you’re coming from. If Mahomes wins five Super Bowls, but wins six MVPs, and puts up numbers that dwarf Brady, he’s probably going to be considered the greatest of all time regardless of being a couple of Super Bowls short of Brady. Because the individual stuff does matter. I do think Brady beating him head to head twice in the later rounds of the playoffs is a fairly big deal but I don’t necessarily think that Mahomes needs to win as many or more Super Bowls as pretty to be considered the greatest of all time. Certainly not in the eyes of many football fans and pundits anyway.

There is almost no way his numbers will ever dwarf Brady’s. We’ll just have to see what Mahomes does. Won’t be easy to win that many more MVPs. Even voters get fatigue sometimes.

 

[Toe Nash]

Wasn't in here for a ton of last night so this may have already been covered, but I keep coming back to the time out Sirianni wasted to avoid a delay of game. I'm trying to find some data on 3rd down conversion rates at 11 yards vs 16 and coming up short. (According to this reddit thread about the 2018 season, it was about 2.5 times as likely to convert the shorter distance that year, but I'd like something that looks at more data, and is more nuanced with regards to elite offenses vs league average.) But I can't help but think the value of having 3 time outs in an end game situation should trump almost any individual situation where you don't ABSOLUTELY NEED a first down to keep the game alive.

Right, plus he correctly let let the delay of game happen on 3rd and 9 earlier in the second half.

I was also confused about the sequence before the punt that had the big return. He did a deep shot to Smith on 3rd and 3 and then punted when he had been getting 2+ yards on 3rd or 4th and short all game. I would have just ran the ball on 3rd or maybe done a screen and seen if you could get to 4th and 1, which had been automatic all game and year.

In both cases, a sudden change of strategy when you had been making the right move all game.

 

[BaseballJones]

There is almost no way his numbers will ever dwarf Brady’s. We’ll just have to see what Mahomes does. Won’t be easy to win that many more MVPs. Even voters get fatigue sometimes.

Yes it will be hard for him to dwarf Brady‘s career numbers because Brady played for so long. But on in per year basis, Mahomes‘s rate stats are at this point significantly better. Now one has to consider the era in which Mahomes is playing. Brady‘s first six years were in an era where passing was much much more difficult. But still, Mahomes injured is going to have ridiculous numbers.

 

[Hoya81]

Honestly, watching Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, and even Herbert smash against each other every year is a pretty exciting prospect. Oh and Mac too. Can’t forget about him.

Not to mention Watson, Jackson, Lawrence, Tua etc. If Payton is able to get Russ turned around and McDaniels gets an upgrade with Rodgers or Jimmy G, the division suddenly becomes a slog.