So, uh, Brady... IS THE GREATEST QB OF ALL TIME NOT EVEN CLOSE SCREW YOU MONTANA

[scottyno]

Pretty good:


https://twitter.com/PP_Rich_Hill/status/526557440729702400

not that it really matters but this isn't true, as someone on twitter already pointed out to him one of his 5 incompletions was a miscommunication with him and Edelman that clearly should have been considered "off target" but was instead classified as a "throwaway" for some reason even though it wasn't, the other 4 were 3 drops and a pass defensed.

 

[kolbitr]

not that it really matters but this isn't true, as someone on twitter already pointed out to him one of his 5 incompletions was a miscommunication with him and Edelman that clearly should have been considered "off target" but was instead classified as a "throwaway" for some reason even though it wasn't, the other 4 were 3 drops and a pass defensed.

 
Just because it was "pointed out" by "Lori Ann" (@TNPatsFan), I don't see why that necessarily invalidates Hill's comment...a "'throwaway'...even though it wasn't"...perhaps you could be more specific as to why this immaterial issue isn't true?

 

[ivanvamp]

Just has to be said, but didn't think it was worthy of a new thread.  But look at this on nfl.com:
 

WEEK 8 SCORES
Rob Gronkowski was at his best with three touchdown catches as the Patriots tore apart the Bears. See all of the Week 8 NFL scores here.

1. Ingram gets hot as Saints stomp Packers
2. Patriots run up the score in win over Bears
3. Late Palmer touchdown wins it for Cards
4. Big Ben outduels Luck, Steelers beat Colts
5. Seahawks hang tough to dispatch Panthers
6. Lions roar back to beat Falcons in London
7. Bengals win division shocker over Ravens
8. Rookie Barr comes up big in OT, Vikes win

 
"Saints stomp Packers"…but "Patriots run up the score in win over the Bears".  
 
I mean, you gotta be kidding me….

 

[johnmd20]

That is pretty weak.

 

[crystalline]

Just has to be said, but didn't think it was worthy of a new thread.  But look at this on nfl.com:
  WEEK 8 SCORES
Rob Gronkowski was at his best with three touchdown catches as the Patriots tore apart the Bears. See all of the Week 8 NFL scores here.

• Ingram gets hot as Saints stomp Packers
• Patriots run up the score in win over Bears
• Late Palmer touchdown wins it for Cards
• Big Ben outduels Luck, Steelers beat Colts
• Seahawks hang tough to dispatch Panthers
• Lions roar back to beat Falcons in London
• Bengals win division shocker over Ravens
• Rookie Barr comes up big in OT, Vikes win

 
"Saints stomp Packers"but "Patriots run up the score in win over the Bears".  
 
I mean, you gotta be kidding me.

Sports media is not real- those writers are desperate for more clicks and will say anything people want to hear, whether it's what they believe or not. "Running up the score" is a tried and true story line so why not see if it works? Using that headline last night is like Hollywood making Dumb And Dumber 2 - very little substance, a money grab, exploiting people's familiarity, and they're all in the entertainment business.

 

[m0ckduck]

So, wait: scoring 6 points after your opening 2nd half drive while pulling your starting QB constitutes 'running up the score'. Got it.

 

[rodderick]

So, wait: scoring 6 points after your opening 2nd half drive while pulling your starting QB constitutes 'running up the score'. Got it.

 
Also, taking Gronkowski out of the game for dehydration with 25 minutes to play, running cutesy TE screens on third and short to test shit out, playing soft zone defense to basically allow the clock to run out. The Patriots could have put 65 on the board if they wanted to run the score up. 

 

[Van Everyman]

Joe Gibbs disagrees with this characterization.

 

[Stitch01]

Up to 8th and 9th by EPA and WPA, 6th by ANY/A (and Palmer has only played four games), 1st in TD/INT driven by 2nd in INT%.  Still 16th in comp% but up from either dead last or next to last.  All trending in the right direction.

 

[Old Fart Tree]

Graham is a non-factor in the running game. Gronk's abilities as a blocker are worlds above Graham's.

 
 

He hardly lines up on the line. He actually argued that he should be considered a WR this past offseason (though an arbiter disagreed).

 
I wasn't claiming Graham was a better TE: the question posed was whether there was a single other non-QB player who changes the game as much as Gronk, and Graham is my possible suggestion.

 

[TomRicardo]

So, wait: scoring 6 points after your opening 2nd half drive while pulling your starting QB constitutes 'running up the score'. Got it.

 
I mean being up 31 and starting a half with a empty backfield might.

 

[Ed Hillel]

 
I mean being up 31 and starting a half with a empty backfield might.

 
Right, they should have just started kneeling.

 

[amarshal2]

 
 
 
I wasn't claiming Graham was a better TE: the question posed was whether there was a single other non-QB player who changes the game as much as Gronk, and Graham is my possible suggestion.

Yeah. We were arguing that he's too one dimensional (all he really does is receive) to be on the list. At the very least he's behind Megatron who is purely a receiver but is clearly better at it.

 

[DJnVa]

Nitpicky stuff, but I've read a few articles tonight that said Brady didn't have 4 drops, he had 3. One that people are calling a drop was a batted down by a lineman at goal line.
 
I didn't see game---anyone recall?

 

[mpx42]

First incomplete pass: at 5:52 in first quarter, ball hit Vereen in hands on wheel route and he drops it.
Second incomplete pass: at 4:38 in second quarter, Brady throws a hitch to Edelman and Edelman didn't stop on the route.
Third incomplete pass: at 3:45 in second quarter, Brady throws a quick screen to Edelman, who drops it.
Fourth incomplete pass: at 13:22 in third quarter, Brady throws a hitch to Edelman right in the hands and he drops it.
Fifth incomplete pass: at 10:03 in fourth quarter, pass over the middle to Vereen is broken up by Christian Jones, the linebacker in coverage. Because FOX sucks, you don't get a replay of how exactly difficult a catch it would have been, but it's not really a drop.
 
So I'd call it 3 drops, to answer your question.
 

 

[bougrj1]

I'm really enjoying how this thread has evolved from page 1 to debating whether Brady should have been 33/35 or 34/35 on the day.

 

[Laser Show]

 
More here: http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/2014/10/27/tom-brady-the-media-images-shut-the-naysayers/wt6PTgJ480R9J91B4kEWoM/story.html

 

[DJnVa]

I'm really enjoying how this thread has evolved from page 1 to debating whether Brady should have been 33/35 or 34/35 on the day.

 
Per ESPN, even a "pass defended" is counted as "on target" for the purposes we are talking about.
 
 
Also, Brady and Manning both threw 14 TDs in October--first month ever with 2 QBs doing that.

 

[Stitch01]

Offensive player of the month for October.
 
Time to start a so-uh-pass rush thread.

 

[lambeau]

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/tom-brady-peyton-manning-cheating/
 
Good read on BradyManning by Simmons.

 

[MainerInExile]

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/tom-brady-peyton-manning-cheating/
 
Good read on BradyManning by Simmons.

Really? Wow, I thought that article was shit. Manning is better than Brady because Manning has brothers and Brady has sisters?

 

[Silverdude2167]

Really? Wow, I thought that article was shit. Manning is better than Brady because Manning has brothers and Brady has sisters?

Yah that piece was crap.
 
"In Denver, Manning's fingerprints are everwhere. He tells the front office what he needs/wants; he tells the offensive coorrdinator what system he wants to run; he runs meetings; he orders people around in the locker room; he does everything."
 
That should not be viewed as as a good thing. There is a reason the Colts went 2-14. If Manning had that much control then he is the reason. The guy is a great football player, but no matter how good he is there are 21 other players on the field. If he always gets what he wants that explains why his teams never wins. He only can really see one side of the ball and it explains why his only win came when his defense played great for a few games, even while he was playing like shit.

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/tom-brady-peyton-manning-cheating/
 
Good read on BradyManning by Simmons.

 
I just finished reading and loved it. It was written with just a touch of remorse for the eventual End of Brady, counter-balanced (hoped?) for another six-year run. 
 
The Edelman story was well told, and although I knew of Brady's sisters I did not know how Welker felt about the Manning's umbrella control over his team. And I think a lot of Pats fan would agree that we all wonder if the 3 rings would be 5 with Deon Branch playing instead of Caldwell. 
 
Really don't give much of a shit for the validity of his analysis. I'm not sure how "good" the article for a non-Pats fan, but at least for me it was one of the most enjoyable Simmons piece I've read in a long, long time. 

 

[JohnnyTheBone]

Bill concludes with "Manning leads on every scorecard". Yes, except head-to-head, winning percentage, playoff wins, and Super Bowl Championships. Outside of those, it's all MANNING.

 

[Tony C]

He mentioned all those facts over the course of the article.

Loved the Edelman anecdote v

 

[Super Nomario]

Simmons has really nailed the voice of the drunk guy next to you in the bar telling you his crazy theory. It's entertaining, but after you get home and sober up you realize he's full of shit.

 

[Devizier]

It was a fun read, but the misgivings about Belichick's strategy were undermined by the point about his success employing that strategy. Keeping in mind also that when the Colts' well ran dry, Manning was able to jump onto a playoff team with lots of great young players on it. Contradictions are kind of Simmons' stock in trade.

 

[PBDWake]

 
 And I think a lot of Pats fan would agree that we all wonder if the 3 rings would be 5 with Deon Branch playing instead of Caldwell. 

 
The flipside is also Pats (or Colts?) fans that wonder if the 3 rings would be 1 if you had that approach throughout and tried to cater to the QB, and did things like draft a David Terrell over a Richard Seymour, or an Anthony Gonzalez over an Eric Weddle. It comes down to the fact that winning a Super Bowl is really fucking hard, and catering only to a single facet of the team means that when that piece misfires, the rest can't pick up the slack.

 

[crystalline]

I really enjoyed the article too. Simmons theory is not just that Brady has sisters but that Brady is the baby brother of three sisters and Manning is the oldest of three brothers. Personality develops in a lot of ways but Simmons is right that birth order has some effect- e.g. a majority of entrepreneurs are first born.

Its a fun observation that doesnt really have much to do with play on the field - Manning being in control is not clearly a good thing, as was said above.

The biggest reason Manning has better weapons is that he changed teams. The Colts were bled dry by adding offense so Manning jumped to a better team. He didn't have to play through the poor Colts seasons that followed him or the poor Broncos seasons that preceded him.

 

[Leather]

He can't stay on point to save his life.

The piece goes from a pseudo examination on how rules have helped Brady and Manning (without talking about the rules themselves) to yet another "who's better" argument based on stats and rings, to a lame psychological examination based on his anecdotal experiences.

And does anyone want to hear a 40-odd year old man talk about his nuts?

 

[bankshot1]

I think one of the reasons "we" read Simmons are for his one-off takes on issues we think about. We might not agree with him or think he's totally full of shit, or totally full of Simmons (which he increasingly is), but to me he's fun to read. So I do.
 
As for Simmon's take during Grantland's Peyton-Tom week, I think there is a general agreement that the NFL has stacked the deck for QB/offensive ascendency, (Yay fantasy football!), with new rule interpretations, but IMO the Simmon's sister theory is an "eh" attempt to give us some insight into Brady and more into Simmon's family. Rather than needing a big-brother, I think Brady needed a big receiver or big defensive line-man, or stingy CB, or for BB to do a better job of giving the male-sibling deficient Brady, a few more sure-handed GI Joes to play catch with.

 

[crystalline]

Here's two other articles on Brady's upbringing. I enjoyed them.


http://m.nydailynews.com/sports/football/giants/story-boy-named-tom-brady-article-1.341686

(This one was linked by Simmons)
http://m.thepostgame.com/blog/more-family-fun/201202/sister-pact-how-tom-bradys-special-bond-his-sisters-helped-make-him-star

 

[Shelterdog]

Simmons has really nailed the voice of the drunk guy next to you in the bar telling you his crazy theory. It's entertaining, but after you get home and sober up you realize he's full of shit.

 
I thought the piece was shit but it does flirt with a point that I think is pretty interesting--a ton of Pats receiver acquisitions have under-performed reasonable expectations (Bethel, Ocho, Chad Jackson, Amendola, Boyce, Tate, David Thomas, Taylor Price, at this rate Dobson) while the same can't really be said of Peyton.  I'm sure I'm missing someone but I'm hard-pressed to think of a single Colts/Broncos pick-up at wideout who's significantly underperformed. Is it bad luck? Bad drafting by BB and superior drafting by Polian and Elway? Does Peyton work better with more players than does Brady? Does Peyton get more input in player selection so that he is already happy with and committed to working with a guy like, say, Austin Collie while Brady just gets Taylor Price, like it or leave it? Is the Pats' system much more complex than the offenses Manning's teams run? I'm just at a loss.
 
When Brady does click with a receiver it's something special, but it's a perpetual source of frustration that Manning seemingly gets at least decent results with every Ben Utecht and Blair White who throws on a uniform.

 

[Seels]

None of the players you mentioned had success after Brady though. No one was singing the praises of 85 or Chad Jackson after they left the Patriots.

 

[Super Nomario]

 
I thought the piece was shit but it does flirt with a point that I think is pretty interesting--a ton of Pats receiver acquisitions have under-performed reasonable expectations (Bethel, Ocho, Chad Jackson, Amendola, Boyce, Tate, David Thomas, Taylor Price, at this rate Dobson) while the same can't really be said of Peyton.  I'm sure I'm missing someone but I'm hard-pressed to think of a single Colts/Broncos pick-up at wideout who's significantly underperformed. Is it bad luck? Bad drafting by BB and superior drafting by Polian and Elway? Does Peyton work better with more players than does Brady? Does Peyton get more input in player selection so that he is already happy with and committed to working with a guy like, say, Austin Collie while Brady just gets Taylor Price, like it or leave it? Is the Pats' system much more complex than the offenses Manning's teams run? I'm just at a loss.
 
When Brady does click with a receiver it's something special, but it's a perpetual source of frustration that Manning seemingly gets at least decent results with every Ben Utecht and Blair White who throws on a uniform.

I think most of your take here is selective memory. Anthony Gonzalez, for instance, was a draft bust. Donald Brown did nothing with Manning. Pierre Garcon's had his best seasons post-Manning. Blair White wasn't any more productive than Kenbrell Thompkins was last year. Brady certainly has his share of elevating flotsam and jetsam - did you take the Brady TD quiz in the other thread?
 
There is a philosophical difference as far as how to and how much to invest in skill players. Manning's played extensively with first-round skill position picks - Harrison, Wayne, Demaryius Thomas, Clark, Edge James, Addai, Moreno - and Indy spent to keep Harrison and Wayne and Clark and James around for a long time. They didn't use many seconds and thirds on skill players, which is a) where there's more risk, and b) where the Pats have invested. By my reckoning the only 2nd/3rds Indy used on skill players were Jerome Pathon and E.G. Green (both Manning's rookie year) and Ben Hartsock - none of those are really success stories.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Simmons has really nailed the voice of the drunk guy next to you in the bar telling you his crazy theory. It's entertaining, but after you get home and sober up you realize he's full of shit.

 
Absolutely.   I enjoy Simmons as an entertainer, and he is a legit basketball expert.  But on baseball and football he's below the average poster here on knowledge/analysis...he's just a more entertaining persona.

 

[DegenerateSoxFan]

Whatever the structural flaws in his columns, Simmons has re-discovered a certain energy that makes for a most enjoyable reading atop the royal throne. I approve.

 

[SumnerH]

 Pierre Garcon's had his best seasons post-Manning

 
Garcon averaged more Y/R 2009-2011 than he has in Washington.  The only way you could say he's been better post-Manning is the number of targets he had last year, but that's just a result of playing alongside Leonard Hankerson, Josh Morgan, and Logan Paulson rather than Reggie Wayne, Austin Collie, and Dallas Clark.

 

[Super Nomario]

 
Garcon averaged more Y/R 2009-2011 than he has in Washington.  The only way you could say he's been better post-Manning is the number of targets he had last year, but that's just a result of playing alongside Leonard Hankerson, Josh Morgan, and Logan Paulson rather than Reggie Wayne, Austin Collie, and Dallas Clark.

Manning didn't play in 2011, so that's a post-Manning season as far as Garcon is concerned. It's a fair point that per-target efficiency might be a better measure that raw receiving yards generally, but insofar as this is a "trust" issue with receivers the additional targets Garcon has gotten post-Manning is relevant.
 
Mostly as an aside, Chase Stuart at footballperspective.com does a lot of good work analyzing targets vs efficiency in pieces like the following:
http://www.footballperspective.com/analyzing-the-leaders-in-targets-in-2013/
http://www.footballperspective.com/yards-per-route-run-yards-per-target-and-targets-per-route-run/
http://www.footballperspective.com/antonio-brown-led-the-nfl-in-true-receiving-yards-in-2013/

 

[Shelterdog]

I think most of your take here is selective memory. Anthony Gonzalez, for instance, was a draft bust. Donald Brown did nothing with Manning. Pierre Garcon's had his best seasons post-Manning. Blair White wasn't any more productive than Kenbrell Thompkins was last year. Brady certainly has his share of elevating flotsam and jetsam - did you take the Brady TD quiz in the other thread?
 
There is a philosophical difference as far as how to and how much to invest in skill players. Manning's played extensively with first-round skill position picks - Harrison, Wayne, Demaryius Thomas, Clark, Edge James, Addai, Moreno - and Indy spent to keep Harrison and Wayne and Clark and James around for a long time. They didn't use many seconds and thirds on skill players, which is a) where there's more risk, and b) where the Pats have invested. By my reckoning the only 2nd/3rds Indy used on skill players were Jerome Pathon and E.G. Green (both Manning's rookie year) and Ben Hartsock - none of those are really success stories.

 
Gonzalez was a solid player for his first two seasons and then injuries essentially ended his career--if you want to call him bust, fine, but it's for injuries rather than performance.

 

[crystalline]

 
I thought the piece was shit but it does flirt with a point that I think is pretty interesting--a ton of Pats receiver acquisitions have under-performed reasonable expectations (Bethel, Ocho, Chad Jackson, Amendola, Boyce, Tate, David Thomas, Taylor Price, at this rate Dobson) while the same can't really be said of Peyton.  I'm sure I'm missing someone but I'm hard-pressed to think of a single Colts/Broncos pick-up at wideout who's significantly underperformed. Is it bad luck? Bad drafting by BB and superior drafting by Polian and Elway? Does Peyton work better with more players than does Brady? Does Peyton get more input in player selection so that he is already happy with and committed to working with a guy like, say, Austin Collie while Brady just gets Taylor Price, like it or leave it? Is the Pats' system much more complex than the offenses Manning's teams run? I'm just at a loss.
 
When Brady does click with a receiver it's something special, but it's a perpetual source of frustration that Manning seemingly gets at least decent results with every Ben Utecht and Blair White who throws on a uniform.

I realize I am beating this point, but I will repeat it once more.

There's hidden selection bias there. While Manning was at Indy they spent on offense and borrowed from the future, leading to a lost season when their strategy could not produce sustained success. Then Peyton got to leave and go pick a good team with a lot of offensive talent.

Brady has had to lie in the bed the Pats made. If he had a chance to upgrade his surrounding talent by switching teams he'd look a lot better too.

 

[Super Nomario]

 
Gonzalez was a solid player for his first two seasons and then injuries essentially ended his career--if you want to call him bust, fine, but it's for injuries rather than performance.

He wasn't Taylor-Price-useless before he got hurt, but he was uninspiring for a first-rounder - he basically did what Dobson or Amendola did last year.
 
FWIW, Qadry Ismail is a guy who didn't work out in Indy, tallying 1000 yards before signing with Indy, then totaling less than 500 in his one year with the Colts, his last in the NFL - pretty similar to the Chad Johnson story.
 
To follow on my post earlier, and quantify just how much less turnover Manning has had to deal with - of skill players he's had, Brady's played with Deion Branch (71 starts) more than anyone else in his career; Branch has started 36% of the games Brady has. Manning has had five different receivers that have started more than 36% of his games - Marvin Harrison (158 starts, 64%), Reggie Wayne (144, 58%), Dallas Clark (101, 41%), Edge James (96, 39%), Marcus Pollard (38%). All but Pollard were first-round picks. No tight end has started more than 25% (Daniel Graham's 49, though Gronk at 47 will pass him soon) of Brady's games, while Clark, Pollard, and Dilger (63, 26%) have started more. No RB has started more than 19% (Corey Dillon's 37) of Brady's games, while James and Joseph Addai (49, 20%) exceeded that. Demaryius Thomas (39 starts) has already played more with Manning than Randy Moss (36) did with Brady. It is inarguable that Brady has dealt with much, much more skill position turnover than Manning has. It's not surprising that he's seen more failures to integrate. The team's continual offensive production through years of changing lineups reminds us that there are plenty of success stories, too.

 

[ivanvamp]

Last five games:
 
133-197 (67.5%), 1601 yds, 8.1 ypa, 18 td, 1 int, 120.5 rating
 
Pats:  5-0, averaging 40.2 points per game over that stretch.  

 

[brandonchristensen]

Last 5 games...
Brady - 133/197, 1601 yards, 18/1
 
Pretty good, I guess.
 
EDIT
Youuuuuu sunuvabeech

 

[riboflav]

Brady now 11-5 vs. Manning. My 2 year old is going to have a hard time some day understanding why this was considered THE rivalry of the 2000s.

 

[rodderick]

Some people who were very excited to announce Brady's demise are now scrambling to justify their wrong opinions. So far "he still can't throw deep" and "well, he can still be solid with a great supporting cast" seem to be the two favorite arguments.

 

[Frisbetarian]

Cold Hard Football Facts says "Tom Brady is an empirically superior quarterback."

 

[RoyHobbs]

And not just empirically superior -- if being "the best" at QBing means more than just accumulating stats/wins but executing the tasks of your discipline better than anyone, Brady the thrower of footballs seems to be better than Manning the thrower of footballs. I know a lot of "dying duck" jokes get made about Manning's tosses, but my goodness, it was all I had on my mind yesterday -- how does he not get picked more often?

 

[Leather]

Brady now 11-5 vs. Manning. My 2 year old is going to have a hard time some day understanding why this was considered THE rivalry of the 2000s.

 
Especially when you turn around and tell him all about the Red Sox-Yankees rivalry.

 

[GregHarris]

how does he not get picked more often?

 
The crazy talent he's throwing to is my guess. Thomas/Thomas, Sanders, hell Welker is the 4th option.