Rookie hazing & bullying: Miami guard Incognito indefinitely suspended

[MarcSullivaFan]

His illness could explain why he endured it so long, and then apparently snapped. According to Philbin, he spoke with the guy several times very recently, and none of this came up. I'm not going to assume at this point that Philbim is lying.

Not at all unusual for employees (or people in general) to hide harassment from supervisors when they feel threatened by the harasser and fear retaliation from the harasser and other co-workers. It's the simplest and most likely explanation for his not reporting it earlier.

 

[seageral]

Not at all unusual for employees (or people in general) to hide harassment from supervisors when they feel threatened by the harasser and fear retaliation from the harasser and other co-workers. It's the simplest and most likely explanation for his not reporting it earlier.

i wouldn't assume that philbin is NOT lying either.  I'm sure he's aware how this could affect his career.

 

[Dogman]

The other thing to keep in mind is that perhaps Martin felt that if he initially reported this to Philbin, Philbin may not have done enough to curb the behavior and others may suffer as he has. That's what makes me thing Philbin knew about this the entire time.  The last time something was said, it was swept under the rug. 
 
Report it this way and this shit stops.

 

[E5 Yaz]

His illness could explain why he endured it so long, and then apparently snapped. According to Philbin, he spoke with the guy several times very recently, and none of this came up. I'm not going to assume at this point that Philbim is lying.

 
Ah, gotcha. Abuse victims in a repressive peer group setting are prone to keeping it inside past the point of no return

 

[singaporesoxfan]

Not sure why it requires mental illness to explain why a person bullied endures it so long and then appears to 'suddenly' snap. Substitute being the victim of domestic abuse/violence for being bullied, for example. People have complex relationships with and complex responses to their tormentors.

 

[seageral]

I'm sure this type of thing to a greater or lesser extent goes on in almost every locker room in the NFL and College, and has for a long time.  The Giants/JPP incident from last year is a good example and a different type of situation is the Cowboys/Irvin situation.    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everett_McIver)  
 
But Incognito is probably in the top 1% of dickheads across the league and has been a giant doosh for a long time - dating from college and most likely well before.  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richie_Incognito).
 
He's one of 6 team leaders for the dolphins so a) I seriously doubt that Philbin didn't endorse in some way his "tough guy" behavior and b) I don't have an ounce of sympathy for the Dolphins in this situation and c) as much as I think Goodell is a slimy fuck I hope he takes this opportunity to make an example of the Dolphins, and I hope Incognito never plays again.
 
edit:
 
and btw I don't have a problem with the Dolphins except for that htey hired Incognito - I would much rather have had the Giants have this sh*tstorm fall on their stupid heads.

 

[dcmissle]

i wouldn't assume that philbin is NOT lying either.  I'm sure he's aware how this could affect his career.

Lying would be the clearest path to career death, Philbin was explicit: he talked to victIm AND his parents within the last week; none of them brought abuse up.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Lying would be the clearest path to career death, Philbin was explicit: he talked to victIm AND his parents within the last week; none of them brought abuse up.

 
I'm not sure that this is all that surprising. It took years for the Sandusky victims to come forward. This case is about emotional abuse, but there are reasons (personal and professional) that Martin and his parents would want to keep it from authorities until they felt they had no options remaining.
 
The evidence, as it were, did not get shared with the team and the NFL until after the Dolphins released a Sunday morning statement saying all there was at that point were accusations. Maybe that was what flipped the switch

 

[seageral]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9926888/miami-dolphins-kept-richie-incognito-control

 

[soxfan121]

To be fair, I think you would find these same type of quotes in other places as well, at least as far as the players go. There are a lot of idiots in the NFL. I'm just not so sure how many organizations would even allow their players to be commenting on this right now, especially with the ongoing investigation. All the players are doing is digging the organization and the NFL itself a bigger hole here.

 
Has anyone active in Foxboro said one word about Aaron Hernandez after his arrest? Apart from Deion Branch, retired, I can't recall anyone even saying his name.
 
Joe Philbin either didn't think to tell his roster to shut up publicly OR doesn't care. Either way, Joe Philbin is doing a great job with this whole situation. 

 

[Sprowl]

In thinking back to my H.S. and college playing days, the locker room can be tough on rookies/freshmen. And in some cases, the "hazing" never stopped for certain players. There were guys on my team that were constantly messed with for whatever NO reason.

@adbrandt Yes, multiple. RT @sjciske: Does “there will be lawyers” go without saying?

 
My favorite imprecation from this day forward.
 

In short, I miss baseball.

 
We all do, Fred.
 

I would advise Incognito to lie low and adopt a fake name, but "Richie Incognito" is about as made-up-sounding a name as it gets.

 
That was my impression every time I saw the thread title. With a name like that, he belongs in P&G.

 

[CaptainLaddie]

A must-read piece by Drew Magary (who I am NOT a fan of usually) about how football breeds dysfunctional "friendships".
 

I know this is another discussion altogether, but what's your issue with Magary?  I find him delightful.

 

[lambeau]

So Martin lines up for two years next to two psychopaths and Philbin is clueless that Martin is suicidal and the left side of his underperforming line hate each other?

 

[E5 Yaz]

So Martin lines up for two years between two psychopaths and Philbin is clueless that Martin is suicidal and the left side of his underperforming line hate each other?

 
Martin is suicidal? Where, besides from Incognito's father, did you get that?

 

[Tangled Up In Red]

Shitty, IMHO that Philbin uses "my kids" as a camp. While taking responsibility, still Immediately emasculates - or at least makes "child-like" - the victim.

 

[budcrew08]

One of the main things from this is that Martin is a second year player, not a rookie. That means Martin has been dealing with this for at least 18 months, if not more.

Picking on or 'hazing' guys is one thing: the old gag of Ben Gay in the jockstrap or whatever, but there's something to be said about being an asshole just to be an asshole.

 

[pdaj]

Shitty, IMHO that Philbin uses "my kids" as a camp. While taking responsibility, still Immediately emasculates - or at least makes "child-like" - the victim.

 
I think you're diggin' a little too deep in this case. Being that Philbin has spent a considerable amount of time speaking with Martins' parents since this issue first unfolded, I'm sure he's heard a lot about the concerns of parents this past week. Furthermore, Martin is just 24 years old. To 52 year old coach, he probably views most of his younger players as "kids". 

 

[soxfan121]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9926888/miami-dolphins-kept-richie-incognito-control

 
That's an excellent read - thanks for posting. 
 

To blame Martin is to ignore reality and uphold the twisted norms of the misguided subculture that allowed this type of environment to persist and -- dare we say -- thrive. It's also a willful refusal to connect the threat of violence to the reality of our gun-soaked, disrespect-me-and-pay-the-price ethos that has people like Aaron Hernandez sitting in jail.
Martin should be praised for walking away and letting the Dolphins sit amid the fetid steam of Incognito's behavior. Speaking of Martin, Bart Scott told Stephen A. Smith and Ryan Ruocco on ESPN New York, "Thank God he walked away. They've got to be thankful he didn't bring a gun to work."
 

 
When Bart Scott is the voice of reason....
 

Incognito has spoken about being bullied as a kid, and bullies tend to be people who were bullied, the same way many sexual abusers were once abused themselves. And to guys like Incognito, guys like Martin can be seen as a threat. They don't dive headlong into the culture, and they give off a vibe of being able to get along just fine without it. This isn't an unusual trait among many oversized NFL offensive linemen. Often they're the most introspective and intelligent members of a team, and in many cases they're playing because their bodies have always dictated they play. Where else can an enormous, overweight young man profit enormously from that type of body?
To a fighter and scrapper and do-anything-to-stay-in-the-league guy like Incognito, that can be intimidating.
It's instructive to note how this story morphed from a tale of one power imbalance to another. It started with talk of extortion -- rookies being forced to pay $30,000 for a team dinner and Martin paying $15,000 for a Vegas trip he didn't even take part in -- to one of racism and viciousness and vile threats. Also instructive to note: how Incognito went from a bullying Twitter rant professing his innocence -- give the man this much: he stays in the same gear -- to radio silence after the revelation that Martin saved voice mails and text messages.
 

 

[rymflaherty]

Not sure why it requires mental illness to explain why a person bullied endures it so long and then appears to 'suddenly' snap. Substitute being the victim of domestic abuse/violence for being bullied, for example. People have complex relationships with and complex responses to their tormentors.

 
Not to mention the culture he is a part of.
I've actually been pleased to see there has been reasonable discourse with the matter, but there have still been a fair share calling Martin weak, or simply saying why didn't he beat him up, etc.
 
Personality, or mental illness certainly could make you keep it bottled in, but it's not hard to see why it would be in his best interest to shut up regardless.
Attacking someone or telling on them doesn't seem like the best option when that person is a vet, on the leadership council and you feel like an outsider to the group, or at the very least way down the totem pole.
If you compute that scenario, you're probably not thinking that confronting or attacking him is going to make your life easier in the locker room.

 

[Super Nomario]

I would advise Incognito to lie low and adopt a fake name, but "Richie Incognito" is about as made-up-sounding a name as it gets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KVHURoOZiY

 

[Spacemans Bong]

I am not surprised Incognito's veteran teammates don't think there's anything wrong - if some of the reports coming out are true, they're all part of the problem. 

 

[Dogman]

 
I think you're diggin' a little too deep in this case. Being that Philbin has spent a considerable amount of time speaking with Martins' parents since this issue first unfolded, I'm sure he's heard a lot about the concerns of parents this past week. Furthermore, Martin is just 24 years old. To 52 year old coach, he probably views most of his younger players as "kids". 

 
 
Where are you getting the bolded?  I've read everything there is to read and haven't seen anything that supports this statement.  Considerable is not the same as being in contact.  I think you are wishcasting Philbin's innocence.

 

[dcmissle]

Chris Carter made the same point this morning. Strip away Martin's background, and the response could have been gun play.

Incognito may have been the ringleader, but almost certainly was not alone. Reasonable to speculate that this same background led teammates to conclude Martin required toughening.

 

[dcmissle]

 
Not to mention the culture he is a part of.
I've actually been pleased to see there has been reasonable discourse with the matter, but there have still been a fair share calling Martin weak, or simply saying why didn't he beat him up, etc.
 
Personality, or mental illness certainly could make you keep it bottled in, but it's not hard to see why it would be in his best interest to shut up regardless.
Attacking someone or telling on them doesn't seem like the best option when that person is a vet, on the leadership council and you feel like an outsider to the group, or at the very least way down the totem pole.
If you compute that scenario, you're probably not thinking that confronting or attacking him is going to make your life easier in the locker room.

In this connection, LeBatard said this morning that walking away was the least bad of 3 impossible options. The other two were to turn Incognito in, which would have exposed Martin as a rat, or to fight Incognito, a leader veteran, which would have been interpreted as insubordination and may well have led to an ass whipping in any case.

 

[Marciano490]

I would advise Incognito to lie low and adopt a fake name, but "Richie Incognito" is about as made-up-sounding a name as it gets.

 
It does mean dick in disguise.

 

[m0ckduck]

I wonder how much this kind of shit goes on inside the Patriots locker room.
 

 
I'm trying unsuccessfully to find an article that ran in the NY Times Magazine in the mid-to-late 2000s about the culture in the NFL. It specifically recounted the experience of a Patriots rookie lineman who wound up being handed an $11,000 bill for a team dinner and immediately decided, "I need a budget". The article made it sound like this was on the outer-extreme of normal standards but not totally exceptional. 
 
EDIT: aha, here it is-- all the way back from 2002. And the lineman is Richard Seymour. And the total bill was 15k, not 11.
 

Richard Seymour, a defensive tackle for the New England Patriots, describes the hazing a rookie should expect: at the very least, running errands for the veterans and carrying their sweaty pads. (At the worst, a veteran may try to break a rookie's skull -- for it is the veteran's job, after all, that the rookie is trying to win.) One night, Seymour recalls, the Patriots rookies had to take the Patriots veterans out to dinner. The veterans ate aggressively and drank Cristal. Seymour's share of the tab: $15,000. That, he says, was when he decided to put himself on a budget. And he decided that, when old friends came looking for handouts, he had to say no.

 

 
Martin is suicidal? Where, besides from Incognito's father, did you get that?

 
Just to pile on: I would put the burden of proof purely on Incognito's camp for this detail. This sounds like one of those classic undermining-the-credibility-of-the-victim schticks (even if you don't personally think it undermines his credibility). 

 

[rymflaherty]

http://deadspin.com/report-richie-incognito-played-main-role-in-bullying-j-1457200127
 
This story has the video of the Hard Knocks clip I mentioned a while back.
It's one of those examples of something that some may find funny, but you can certainly see the other side of it, and I definitely can see how it would become infuriating if you had to deal with it constantly.
It's Egnew as the brunt of the joke in this clip...As a Dolphins fan, and connecting dots with things I've read the past couple years, I would not be surprised if Egnew was someone that was taking just as much crap as Martin.
 
It makes you wonder how much HBO may have on camera.

 

[fairlee76]

I don't find a single thing that Mike Pouncey has to say interesting.  Once you wear the free hernandez hat you're off of my list of thought leaders.
 
And I think we're way beyond the point where we can say martin just snapped in reaction to good-natured ribbing, so Miko doesn't do much for me either.

I'll be interested in what Pouncey has to say if he's deposed but otherwise he is absolutely not someone whose opinion I care about.  In fact, reading his tweets must make one dumber, right?
 
I hope we get a few third-party accounts of what happened between Martin and Incognito.  Damn sure looks like a case of bullying, but a few guys standing up and providing an account of what went on in the locker room would likely shut up the "Martin is mentally ill!" crowd.
 
And, no, Miko, I don't often find myself wanting to swing at a friend as a result of "good-natured" ribbing.  These dudes live in such a different world than us.

 

[OCST]

 
 
Not to mention the culture he is a part of.

 
Saw Tom Jackson on ESPN this morning and he was angrily pushing back at the idea that the NFL locker room culture is something separate and apart from normal society, ie that football players couldn't be trusted to be civilized, that "boys will be boys," etc.
 
He was really heated up about it.  

 

[Plantiers Wart]

 
The portions of Mike & Mike I heard this morning were infuriating.
 
Their attempts to rationalize "hazing" and harassment....But only to a certain point, were ridiculous.
I understand some of it is accepted as part of the "culture", I've seen and experienced similar things while playing sports, but what I don't understand is how Golic, Greenberg and Jaws could fail to see that even the tamer examples could bother someone. It's like they completely dismissed that they could cause any mental distress. 

 
 
Well, today it seems like Golic walked it back a whole bunch - said simple, old run of the mill hazing is still okay, but those voicemails just went too far - and then the two Mikes went on and on about how bad this all was.... 

 

[Red PR]

All in all, I think Philbin is not cut to be an NFL coach. Sad to say as I've been a Dolphin fan since 82 and wanted to see a competitive perennial playoff team again. But believe this will NOT happen with Philbin as coach. 

 

[E5 Yaz]

 
 
Well, today it seems like Golic walked it back a whole bunch - said simple, old run of the mill hazing is still okay, but those voicemails just went too far - and then the two Mikes went on and on about how bad this all was.... 

 
Just a guess, but when they had their show yesterday, the transcript of the voicemail hadn't been released

 

[soxfan121]

In this connection, LeBatard said this morning that walking away was the least bad of 3 impossible options. The other two were to turn Incognito in, which would have exposed Martin as a rat, or to fight Incognito, a leader veteran, which would have been interpreted as insubordination and may well have led to an ass whipping in any case.

 
You missed option #4, which Bart Scott stated plainly and functions as the go-to advice in TBLTS....get a gun. Obviously, door #4 would have been the worst option of all and while it will never dawn on Incognito, it was an option.
 

 
Saw Tom Jackson on ESPN this morning and he was angrily pushing back at the idea that the NFL locker room culture is something separate and apart from normal society, ie that football players couldn't be trusted to be civilized, that "boys will be boys," etc.
 
He was really heated up about it.  

 
Ooooh, I'd love to see Tom Jackson debate Tony Siragusa on this topic. 
 
Thanks to Dan Patrick, we're all probably going to be spared Tony Siragusa on our TVs ever again. "Goose" ham-handedly defended that locker room culture while Patrick asked him just enough leading questions so that Siragusa walked right into trouble with his answers. Siragusa kept insisting "words are just words" while Patrick pressed him on whether racial slurs and death threats were truly "just words". I think we've seen the last of Siragusa (FOX Sports executives will be in a meeting right now, listening to the interview while facepalming) because of his block-headed take on this issue.

 

[dbn]

Defending shit like this by claiming "that's just the culture" or "it happens on every team" is such complete B.S.  While those statements are probably true, how on earth does one logically go from "it's common" to "it's not wrong"?  Is illegal steroid use also okay?  Was sexual harassment in the work place okay in the 50s?  Were segregated drinking fountains okay?  FFS.
 
(To be clear, my frustration isn't aimed at posters, but at the players and/or talking heads that are defending the hazing.)
 
edit:  I'll pull back a little on my condemnation of players who are defending the actions - but only a bit.  If it is part of the culture one is "brought up in", one might not have the perspective to see the wrongness.  Most veteran players have probably either participated in or passively condoned hazing, and thus it's easier on the conscious to defend it.  Good for anyone who is brave enough to break ranks and say "this is wrong." 

 

[bakahump]

DBN   If thats the case ("People where brought up in it...so see nothing wrong with it") and I agree with you that its probably the case....too often thats always the case.
 
The Coaches also fall into that trap.  Many are ex players at some level. Many have spent decades (even if not players) in that culture and been "desensitized" to it.
 
Someone pointed out that BB finally said "ok 15K is too much for rookies to be footing....knock it off."   But 12K was ok.....and the year after he put his foot down at 15K did he balk at 10K or was that again ok?
 
This isnt to shit on BB.  I like to (naively) think he is one of most ground of NFL coaches.  Its to illustrate that if he lets boys be boys....vets be vets.....then what chance does any HC have at changing the culture?  And do they want to...
 
So if the inmates are crazy....and the "guards" are crazy.....the prison is going to be crazy.

 

[Ale Xander]

I am not surprised Incognito's veteran teammates don't think there's anything wrong - if some of the reports coming out are true, they're all part of the problem. 

Great point
 
Not sure if it has been mentioned, but the 2012 Dolphins had few leaders/veterans, and even those few leaders are gone now.
 
Bush, Dansby, Bess are all gone.
 
That's a young and immature roster.

 

[Time to Mo Vaughn]

I am in no way endorsing hazing, but one thing that is getting missed here is that hazing, done correctly, is purposive behavior: specifically, hazing is done to bring about solidarity through shared experience of an adversarial nature.

 
No, it's not. This is just the most commonly attempted rationalization behind hazing, but it's 100% about the hazers putting themselves in a position of control and power. If this were really about creating solidarity the whole team would be doing it together not singling out the newest members of the team.

 

[kenneycb]

 
No, it's not. This is just the most commonly attempted rationalization behind hazing, but it's 100% about the hazers putting themselves in a position of control and power. If this were really about creating solidarity the whole team would be doing it together not singling out the newest members of the team.

No it's not.
 
Edit: To add some substance, in some cases, sure this is true but applying that to all such events is just dumb IMO.

 

[finnVT]

Someone pointed out that BB finally said "ok 15K is too much for rookies to be footing....knock it off."   But 12K was ok.....and the year after he put his foot down at 15K did he balk at 10K or was that again ok?
 
This isnt to shit on BB.  I like to (naively) think he is one of most ground of NFL coaches.  Its to illustrate that if he lets boys be boys....vets be vets.....then what chance does any HC have at changing the culture?  And do they want to...

I think part of the point, though, is that there was a line.  We can argue about the sanity of that line, but it existed.  There doesn't seem to have been a line at all in the Martin situation.  Not only did he apparently foot the bill for these events multiple times, but it didn't seem to end when he stopped being a rooke (right?  I know the comments continued, but I think I've missed the exact timeline on the Vegas trip, etc).  
 
I can buy that there's some element of team building in the run-of-the-mill hazings we've heard about, but I think a lot of that depends on it being targeted at a group ('rookies'), not at an individual.  By continuing past Martin's rookie season, it becomes a personal attack, which I think is something entirely different.  (Which isn't to say that what happened during his rookie season didn't also cross a line)

 

[OCST]

 
Ooooh, I'd love to see Tom Jackson debate Tony Siragusa on this topic. 
 

 
Yeah, I was surpised by how angry Jackson was.  He was clearly very pissed off by the idea that football players had to be held to lower standards in the locker room.   
 
I crap on ESPN as much as anyone, and I think they suck in many ways, but I've always liked Tom Jackson, and he was righteous today.

 

[Worst Trade Evah]

nm

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

 
I'm easily confused these days but isn't this the poster identified as Icognito's father in the other thread on finheaven? incognitos dad going off on deadspin comments too?
 
 

 

 

 
Pretty sure that's a Deadspin commentor making a joke.

 

[NatetheGreat]

The thing is, while reasonable people can presumably recognize the line between "making the rookie carry some pads/luggage" type hazing and over the top bullying and abuse, the reality is that sooner or later any organization is going to have some members who aren't reasonable and will see the gray areas and blurred lines in hazing as an excuse to take it to far.  In her latest mailbag, Katie Baker made this point well:
 

It's always a little bit unnerving when you grow up and realize that your parents were right. The bully really is the guy in the room who has the most issues him or herself. And when these things become "institutionalized," it's the inmates who run the asylum. In the wake of Jonathan Martin's allegations against Richie Incognito, it's easy to say that costumes are one thing and picking up balls after practice isn't that bad. I agree, but it's not you and me setting the agenda on the margins — it's the weirdos who want the costumes worn for a week straight including in the shower or who kick the balls away as some rookie bends down to retrieve them who push the envelope here. Think of Ben Affleck and Parker Posey in Dazed and Confused — you want those nut jobs setting precedents?

 
When you have a culture that deems hazing acceptable and assumes that players will have the wherewithal and decency to know where to draw the line, then inevitably you're going to run into a situation where an asshole like Incognito sees it as an opportunity to indulge his worst impulses. Rules aren't really made for decent professional guys who know how to self-regulate their behavior, they exist to keep the knuckleheads and assholes from ruining things for everyone else.
 
In this case, it seems really clear that the Dolphins didn't have a system in place that would have prevented this sort of thing. They simply took it for granted that players will self-govern like decent and reasonable people...and then they went and signed a guy with Incognito's history, and made him a leader in the locker room. That is a recipe for disaster and they should be held fully responsible for it.

 

[Jnai]

The more I hear about this kind of stuff, the more I wonder if the NFL isn't going to eventually going to take a step back away from its spot as the top mega-media sport.
 
Everyone loves the NFL as a game. We get ridiculous violence, amazing strategy, crazy athleticism, and intense crowds. But look at it closer, and what you find is a bunch of overpaid, overglorified jocks giving each other concussions and yelling racist and homophobic shit at each other. No one really likes that.
 
Any time we get too close to NFL culture, we're almost always horrified by it. Just watch the game, because the rest of it is some ugly ugly sausagemaking process that no one really wants to see.

 

[PayrodsFirstClutchHit]

The more I hear about this kind of stuff, the more I wonder if the NFL isn't going to eventually going to take a step back away from its spot as the top mega-media sport.
 
Everyone loves the NFL as a game. We get ridiculous violence, amazing strategy, crazy athleticism, and intense crowds. But look at it closer, and what you find is a bunch of overpaid, overglorified jocks giving each other concussions and yelling racist and homophobic shit at each other. No one really likes that.
 
Any time we get too close to NFL culture, we're almost always horrified by it. Just watch the game, because the rest of it is some ugly ugly sausagemaking process that no one really wants to see.

 
There were predictions of the end or decline of the NFL product after the news of the long term effect of concussions, the Junior Seau suicide, Aaron Hernandez murder, Spygate, Bountygate, and now Hazegate...
 
None of this is going to stop gamblers, fantasy players, rabid fans from watching/attending games/buying merchandise.  
 
This stuff gives the media and fans something to discuss/complain about between games.  Once kickoff starts, nobody gives a shit about any of it.

 

[cannonball 1729]

 
There were predictions of the end or decline of the NFL product after the news of the long term effect of concussions, the Junior Seau suicide, Aaron Hernandez murder, Spygate, Bountygate, and now Hazegate...
 
None of this is going to stop gamblers, fantasy players, rabid fans from watching/attending games/buying merchandise.  
 
This stuff gives the media and fans something to discuss/complain about between games.  Once kickoff starts, nobody gives a shit about any of it.

 
Of course, half of the events that you cited happened in the last year.  It might be a little early to say that these things have no long-term effect on the NFL.

 

[OCST]

 
There were predictions of the end or decline of the NFL product after the news of the long term effect of concussions, the Junior Seau suicide, Aaron Hernandez murder, Spygate, Bountygate, and now Hazegate...
 
None of this is going to stop gamblers, fantasy players, rabid fans from watching/attending games/buying merchandise.  
 
This stuff gives the media and fans something to discuss/complain about between games.  Once kickoff starts, nobody gives a shit about any of it.

 
I don't know.  The concussion stuff is not going away.
 
We've discussed this before, I've posted about it a lot, and I don't want to hijack the thread, but I think the NFL could absolutely lose its status.   Look at what happened to boxing.  Fifty years ago it was arguably the most popular sport in the country and the heavyweight champion of the world was the most famous man alive.  It was inconceivable that people wouldn't care about it some day.  Now I don't even know who the heavyweight champion is, and boxing is barely discussed any more outside of a small circle of dedicated fans.  A lot of that was because of the sleaze factor, but IMO it was mostly because of the brutality (Mancini/Kim being the beginning of the end IMO).
 
Similar with football, I think.  The bullying thing makes people uneasy.  It is a turnoff.  It's not enough to get people to stop watching.  The concussion stuff could be much more harmful.  The worst would be if someone were to get killed from a hit in an NFL game and their corpse taken off the field under a sheet, and unfortunately I think that's not outside of the realm of possibility, given the strength and speed of players today.

 

[steveluck7]

Overpaid - Almost every athlete in every major sport
Over glorified jock - almost every athlete in every major sport
Giving each other concussions - almost every NFL and NHL athlete
Yelling racist and homophobic shit at each other - almost every athlete in every major sport
 
The NFL is subject to such scrutiny because it is so popular but if you pulled the curtains back on the other sports, I'm sure many would be appalled by the antics in and around most professional sports teams.
 
It wasn't long ago when we had Gilbert Arenas bring guns into the locker room, Ron Artest jump into the stands, John Rocker make his comments, Matt Cooke end a career and Marty McSorley swing his stick at Donald Brashear's head

 

[NatetheGreat]

None of this is going to stop gamblers, fantasy players, rabid fans from watching/attending games/buying merchandise.  

 
Gambling and fantasy sports are big, but they hardly account for all, or even a majority, of the huge spectator and ticket sales numbers of the NFL. Nor do diehard fans for that matter. Most people who are watching football most sundays and going to the occasional game are casual fans. They like the sport or they wouldn't be watching it, but it would be sheer hubris for the NFL to assume that the majority of its fans are gambling addicts or rabid diehards who will always watch no matter what.

 

[wutang112878]

 
There were predictions of the end or decline of the NFL product after the news of the long term effect of concussions, the Junior Seau suicide, Aaron Hernandez murder, Spygate, Bountygate, and now Hazegate...
 

 
I think all of this, except for Spygate, is genuinely horrible and troublesome.  I fully recognize that by supporting the NFL I am in essence contributing in a small way to these problems.  Yet it wont keep me from watching games this weekend or checking my fantasy scores.  I also cant think of a single friend that will change their NFL watching habits as a result of this either.