Rookie hazing & bullying: Miami guard Incognito indefinitely suspended

Ed Hillel · Nov 4, 2013

Among the texts that Jonathan Martin made available to his parents, and then, eventually the Dolphins and the NFL, include those in which Richie Incognito refers to Martin, who is biracial, as a "half-n*****," according to a source who was privy to the communication.

http://mweb.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/24186392/dolphins-harassment-case-text-from-incognito-to-martin-used-racial-slur

Ed Hillel · Nov 4, 2013

rymflaherty said:
The portions of Mike & Mike I heard this morning were infuriating.

Their attempts to rationalize "hazing" and harassment....But only to a certain point, were ridiculous.
I understand some of it is accepted as part of the "culture", I've seen and experienced similar things while playing sports, but what I don't understand is how Golic, Greenberg and Jaws could fail to see that even the tamer examples could bother someone. It's like they completely dismissed that they could cause any mental distress.

And this is exactly why the Dolphins are going to get made an example of by Goodell. Even if they didn't know about the racism aspect (unlikely, but ok), they had to have known about the huge bills. Given how bad it has turned out, I expect this will lead to more examples that will make the Dolphins look worse, and probably a stiff penalty. Spygate/Bountygate level by the time it's said and through.

Sure, other NFL teams have the same issues, but that won't stop the Sheriff.

pdaj · Nov 4, 2013

In thinking back to my H.S. and college playing days, the locker room can be tough on rookies/freshmen. And in some cases, the "hazing" never stopped for certain players. There were guys on my team that were constantly messed with for whatever reason. I couldn't imagine dealing with that in addition to the constant media scrutiny, plus the intense NFL grind. Keep in mind, Martin's no longer a rookie, and the LT/OL situation has been a constant focus all season long. When you're as smart as Martin (with a Stanford degree), I can see why he'd stop and say, "Hold up, why am I doing this again? Fuck it, I'm out."

soxfan121 · Nov 4, 2013

There are several instances of threats as well, the sources said, and overall disturbing exchanges, including one in which Incognito refers to defecating in Martin's mouth.

Incognito also made reference to tracking down members of Martin's family and harming them in the texts as well, according to a source.

Gunfighter09 is one of the best posters on this site but I think he's completely wrong that NFL teams will be lining up to sign Incognito if he's released by the Dolphins.

And if the bolded is true, getting released by the Dolphins is the least of his worries.

NortheasternPJ · Nov 4, 2013

Gunfighter 09 said:
No fucking way. Teams like Dallas, Oakland or Pittsburgh, which have seen their offensive lines decimated by injury, are really hoping Miami cuts Incognito. He is a pro bowl guard in a league with several teams desperate for healthy offensive linemen. Vilma, Vick, Aldon Smith and Reilly Cooper are all recent and/or famous examples of the fact that being able to play in the NFL will get you on a team, regardless of how much of an asshole you are. Sending hateful texts and picking on a sensitive young player isn't really much relative to the sins of Vick or Smith, so it is hard to see how Incognito won't be able to find a job. This will cost him money, and perhaps even a suspension, but he is likely getting free agency and his choice of 4 or 5 teams out of this.

If he was cut tomorrow and suspended for 4 games by the league, he would have no fewer than 4 offers just to play the last 4 games this year.

I can see Dallas, but you think the 2-6 Steelers or the 3-5 Raiders are going to jump into this with Incognito?

I don't doubt he'll be in the league somewhere, i just doubt a team that's all done is going to go that route.

Edit: on second thought, it's the Raiders so you may be right on them.

Mystic Merlin · Nov 4, 2013

sodenj5 said:
Pretty sure that I qualified my response with "unless more details come to light."

Based on the reaction that the organization has taken, my gut feeling is they knew some form of hazing was taking place, but had no idea that Incognito had taken it to that extent until Martin left the team and his representatives subsequently released the texts and voice mails that Martin had on his phone to them.

Again, if it comes out that Philbin or Ireland knew about this, and chose to ignore it or attempted to cover it up, then they should be rightfully punished.

As soxfan noted, they have a duty to know about this sort of behavior among their players.

Ed Hillel · Nov 4, 2013

Schefter on TV reporting Ingocnito left Martin a voice message, using the half-N term, saying he would "shit in his fucking mouth and slap his mother."

Cool guy.

czar · Nov 4, 2013

Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter16m
NFL has heard Richie Incognito's VM to Jonathan Martin. Dolphins have heard the voice mail.
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Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter17m
4. Incognito to Martin, all on same VM in April 2013: "(Expletive) you, you're still a rookie. I'll kill you."
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Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter18m
3. Incognito VM to Martin: "(I'm going to) slap your (expletive) mouth. (I'm going to) slap your real mother across the face (laughter).
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Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter18m
2. More Incognito to Martin: "I saw you on Twitter, you been training ten weeks. (I want to) (expletive) in your (expl) mouth....
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Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 19m
1: Richie Incognito left this VM for Jonathan Martin in April 2013: "Hey, wassup, you half n----- piece of (expletive)...

pdaj · Nov 4, 2013

soxfan121 said:
Gunfighter09 is one of the best posters on this site but I think he's completely wrong that NFL teams will be lining up to sign Incognito if he's released by the Dolphins.

And if the bolded is true, getting released by the Dolphins is the least of his worries.

Ed Hillel said:
http://mweb.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/24186392/dolphins-harassment-case-text-from-incognito-to-martin-used-racial-slur

Among the texts that Jonathan Martin made available to his parents, and then, eventually the Dolphins and the NFL, include those in which Richie Incognito refers to Martin, who is biracial, as a "half-n*****," according to a source who was privy to the communication.

It's the racial slurs -- which happened to be aimed at a freakin' teammate -- that will leave Incognito without a job once he's cut. I can't imagine any GM bringing this dude into their very diverse locker room. Schefler stated on ESPN that after Philbin and co. were played the voicemail, the decision to suspend RC was a no-brainer.

I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that Philbin was unaware of this level of abuse. Martin's outburst was first reported as "coming out of nowhere", most likely due to the fact that he kept most of the BS bottled up internally. As for the rookie spending, which was often referenced on Twitter? Yeah, I think that was known.

pdaj · Nov 4, 2013

Ed Hillel said:
Schefter on TV reporting Ingocnito left Martin a voice message, using the half-N term, saying he would "shit in his fucking mouth and slap his mother."

Cool guy.

It's no wonder some defensive linemen have tried to (literally) kill him on the football field.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yAVuYPa3jo

mpx42 · Nov 4, 2013

Tedy Bruschi today:

Here's an example of how it was handled when things got out of hand for us. When I was a rookie, I was asked to take the entire LB group to dinner. It cost me $1,700. As it got up to my 8th and 9th year, it turned into an entire team dinner and all the rookies paying for the dinner. That bill sometimes reached upwards of $30,000. Word got out that it was getting out of hand. I remember one captains meeting when Bill Belichick said 'That's enough of that. It's getting out of hand, guy.' Joe Philbin should have been all over this.

Morning Woodhead · Nov 4, 2013

Bruschi just did a chat, and hit on the rookie picking up the tab issue. This happens in all sports, and I'm sure in most locker rooms, reached a point where somebody had squash it. Doesn't seem like Philbin ever did that in Miami.

Jacob (Bethlehem, Pa.)

Tedy, I was surprised to see what was going on in Miami with a starting OL to leave the team allegedly due to hazing. Obviously we're used to seeing rookie haircuts and similar things for first-year players, but how much of this really goes on? Have you seen something similar, and how would it be handled in New England?
Tedy
(12:27 PM)

Here's an example of how it was handled when things got out of hand for us. When I was a rookie, I was asked to take the entire LB group to dinner. It cost me $1,700. As it got up to my 8th and 9th year, it turned into an entire team dinner and all the rookies paying for the dinner. That bill sometimes reached upwards of $30,000. Word got out that it was getting out of hand. I remember one captains meeting when Bill Belichick said 'That's enough of that. It's getting out of hand, guy.' Joe Philbin should have been all over this.

edit- too slow, carry on

Granite Sox · Nov 4, 2013

sodenj5 said:
For those referencing New England and New Orleans as examples, I think there's a large difference between the two and Miami. New England chose to ignore the league issued warning regarding their practice, got caught, and was punished. New Orleans was running a bounty system that everyone, including the head coach, was involved in, and then took steps to cover it up.

Like I said, unless more details come to light, if neither Philbin or Ireland was aware of what Incognito was doing, it may not look good on them, but there doesn't appear to be any willful negligence on their part, which I think is why it's a different case than either New England or New Orleans.

I may be mistaken, but I think the references to NE and NO relate to taking a football-specific issue and opening it up to a broader societal/cultural debate:

SpyGate = cheating is okay
BountyGate = deliberately injuring someone is okay and even rewarded
BullyGate = physical and psychological hazing is okay

In each of these cases, the whole "but everybody's doing it!" defense got trotted out and summarily slammed.

Man, the whole topic of bullying and the links to social media, mental illness, suicide, etc. are front and center here.

Greg29fan · Nov 4, 2013

Richie's dad used to be the same way on message boards back when his kid was at Nebraska. It's been going on for a long, long time.

pdaj · Nov 4, 2013

Marcellus Wiley was just interviewed on ESPN2 (MIchael Smith's show). He mentioned that when he was in San Diego, LT (as a rookie) was "forced" to take the entire team out for dinner, costing him 32k. And Marcellus, himself, admitted to being duck-taped to a goal post buck-nude in his first year.

The "hazing" process can be fun and help bond players together when kept in check. But without the proper safeguards in place, either from the players or coaches, it can quickly get out of hand. The Martin situation will end up being a blessing in disguise for the NFL. The league is supposed to be a professional working environment.

Tim Naehrings Girl · Nov 4, 2013

Watching Sports center now and the voice mails are coming out that Incognito left for Martin. Here is a snippet, I don't have a link yet because it's on TV.

''Hey, wassup, you half (expletive) piece of (expletive). I saw you on Twitter, you been training ten weeks. (I want to) (expletive) in your mouth. (I'm going to) slap your (expletive) mouth. (I'm going to) slap your real mother across the face (laughter). (Expletive) you, you're still a rookie. I'll kill you. ''

This was a vm that they turned into a transcript.

mascho · Nov 4, 2013

Schefty on ESPN right now FYI.

There are a "string" of text messages involved that the NFL and Dolphins are reviewing. There are other people in the Dolphins organization who have "witnessed some of this behavior." This is now an issue of "harassment in the workplace." Incognito is the "focus" but others will be looked at as well.

Tony C · Nov 4, 2013

decent line by K Law.

soxfan121 said:
Gunfighter09 is one of the best posters on this site but I think he's completely wrong that NFL teams will be lining up to sign Incognito if he's released by the Dolphins.

And if the bolded is true, getting released by the Dolphins is the least of his worries.

Maybe not lined up, but it took Riley Cooper about 2 weeks to move beyond the "how can he ever play for the Eagles again" to being another JAG. Now, this is even worse -- quite unbelievable, really -- but I suspect that even if it takes a year Incognito will end up be back in the league.

OCST · Nov 4, 2013

This stuff in all sports is old news, and used to be sanctioned, if not imposed, by management themselves. From a great Grantland article on travel in the early days of the NBA, on Auerbach not wanting to reimburse guys for travel expenses, and the guys sticking the rookies with them as a result: http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9278137/bob-cousy-elgin-baylor-walt-frazier-tommy-heinsohn-others-talk-travel-nba

Cousy: As I'm sure you heard, [Red] could be a bit of a pain in the ass at times. It used to be funny because four of us would jump in a cab together — you had to go three or four to a cab. And if you had a rookie, you'd try to get a rookie to go in the cab with you, because when the cab got to the airport or the hotel, the minute the cab driver stopped, all of us would pile out. We'd try to get the rookie in the middle and pile out of both doors. We'd pop the hood of the truck, grab our bags, and sprint into the hotel. We'd leave the rookie to pay for the taxi because Auerbach was such a pain in the tail about giving you back expenses. He'd always give you a hard time about it. Cab drivers must have thought we were out of our minds, these four adults in a cab, he gets to the destination and we all run like banshees out of the cab with one poor guy there left to pay. We'd always pay, but normally you'd try to stick the rookie because Arnold was so difficult to get reimbursement back.

Barnett: We always flew in from Boston when we played New York or Baltimore and we always flew the day of the game. We did not fly the day before if it was an off day, because it saved on the hotel bill and we would get day rates. We'd get in at noon and we stayed in the hotel room for about three hours, then we'd go to the game. So we got a day rate like a prostitute would at a hotel. I remember coming into LaGuardia, New York, it used to cost about $6 for the cab. It used to be John Havlicek, Satch Sanders, and myself. I was a rookie. I had to pay the cab and it was like six bucks and one time I gave the cabby a dollar tip. Red Auerbach bit my head off for tipping too much. I had to get the money back. So the next time in, I remember the ride was $5.50 or something. I gave him 50 cents and the cabbie took the two quarters and threw them out on the sidewalk of New York. He said, "A 50-cent tip for four guys?" But Auerbach had intimidated me.

Having said that, the differences here are obvious: 1) Martin is no longer a rookie; 2) the financial scale of this is off the charts; 3) the racial stuff is just a non-starter today. It's just stupid when your teammates are mostly black, but it's also possibly actionable, as others have said.

If it was taking place on this scale and the Dolphins didn't notice it, then they're incredibly negligent. I have to believe they knew about it and looked the other way. Either way, it's terrible management.

Goodell is an ass, but I have no problem with Goodell maxing out punishment on this for Incognito and the team.

DJnVa · Nov 4, 2013

Matt Chatham was retweeting some Icognito tweets from earlier this year and insinuating that Martin didn't have a problem hazing other rookies in training camp---"stealing" one rookie's car.

soxfan121 · Nov 4, 2013

Tony C said:
decent line by K Law.

Maybe not lined up, but it took Riley Cooper about 2 weeks to move beyond the "how can he ever play for the Eagles again" to being another JAG. Now, this is even worse -- quite unbelievable, really -- but I suspect that even if it takes a year Incognito will end up be back in the league.

Riley Cooper did what he did on his own time, not at the team facility and not aimed at a teammate. Further, Riley Cooper's remarks were of the stupid and racist variety, not of the threatening to "shit in your mouth", "slap your mother" and "kill you" variety.

IOW, there are significant differences to being a stupid guy making racist comments at a country music concert and repeated threats, racial abuse and who-knows-what-else at the team facility, in text message and voicemail to a specific individual.

And Riley Cooper was contrite and apologetic from the moment it became public. Richie Incognito responded to allegations he was bullying a teammate by attempting to bully the NFL's best information reporter over twitter, by questioning his manhood and telling Schefter to "BRING IT".

Slight differences here, right Tony? In the actual offenses and in the reaction to being accused of the offenses?

SeoulSoxFan said:
I thought Pats should have traded for Riley when the whole thing happened. Also had a fantastic game yesterday.

However, Incognito is one dude I want anywhere near Gillette, although I'm with SF121 that he'll be signed by another team sooner than later.

No, you've confused my opinion (i.e. Incognito will likely never play in the NFL again and certainly not for the Dolphins) and Gunfighter09's opinion (Incognito will play again because teams need OL help).

E5 Yaz · Nov 4, 2013

I think we have to separate the paying for dinner and/or a vegas trip from the rest of the garbage spewing from incognito

one is hazing (if extreme), the other is actionable workplace abuse

Tony C · Nov 4, 2013

soxfan121 said:
...

Slight differences here, right Tony? In the actual offenses and in the reaction to being accused of the offenses?

...

E5 Yaz said:
I think we have to separate the paying for dinner and/or a vegas trip from the rest of the garbage spewing from incognito

one is hazing (if extreme), the other is actionable workplace abuse

Definitely more than slight differences: Richie is at a whole different level of scumbag-ness....and it does rise to actionable workplace abuse. That said, the basic analogy to Cooper holds: he'll be back in the league. The same union leading the charge to defend Martin will also not want to set a precedent of blackballing players. Maybe not this year and maybe there'll be a long suspension, but I don't see how he doesn't get back into the league at some point.

NatetheGreat · Nov 4, 2013

Its amazing how terribly the Incognitos have handled this. From Richie basically challenging Schefter to a fight (because, you know, nothing says "I'm not a bully" like trying to physically intimidate those who criticize you), to his dad's bizarre claim that bullying Martin is somehow ok "because he's suicidal", they've just displayed an amazing capacity for sticking their foots in their mouths.

PedroKsBambino · Nov 4, 2013

Gunfighter 09 said:
No fucking way. Teams like Dallas, Oakland or Pittsburgh, which have seen their offensive lines decimated by injury, are really hoping Miami cuts Incognito. He is a pro bowl guard in a league with several teams desperate for healthy offensive linemen. Vilma, Vick, Aldon Smith and Reilly Cooper are all recent and/or famous examples of the fact that being able to play in the NFL will get you on a team, regardless of how much of an asshole you are. Sending hateful texts and picking on a sensitive young player isn't really much relative to the sins of Vick or Smith, so it is hard to see how Incognito won't be able to find a job. This will cost him money, and perhaps even a suspension, but he is likely getting free agency and his choice of 4 or 5 teams out of this.

If he was cut tomorrow and suspended for 4 games by the league, he would have no fewer than 4 offers just to play the last 4 games this year.

I doubt Pittsburgh would go near him, though I agree Dallas and Oakland might.

He has been, and now is even more, the kind of guy that good teams just don't believe is worth the hassle.

NatetheGreat · Nov 4, 2013

Re: hazing...my stance has always been that if you wouldn't want people outside the locker room to hear about what you're doing to rookies, you shouldn't be doing it. So, goofy haircuts, make them carry pads, put random crap in their locker, and other basically innocuous pranks? No biggie. Extorting people, threatening them, or abusing them? No fucking away.

Dogman · Nov 4, 2013

sodenj5 said:
Pretty sure that I qualified my response with "unless more details come to light."

Based on the reaction that the organization has taken, my gut feeling is they knew some form of hazing was taking place, but had no idea that Incognito had taken it to that extent until Martin left the team and his representatives subsequently released the texts and voice mails that Martin had on his phone to them.

Again, if it comes out that Philbin or Ireland knew about this, and chose to ignore it or attempted to cover it up, then they should be rightfully punished.

Sure, but your qualifier is meaningless in this charade. What everyone, including former players, are saying is that those details (extorting players, threatening players) are already public and it was well known that this stuff was happening. The contents of the text messages and VM are secondary to the team being well aware of the extreme hazing/bullying and the workplace harassment that was taking place under Ireland and Philbin.

Reverend · Nov 4, 2013

I am in no way endorsing hazing, but one thing that is getting missed here is that hazing, done correctly, is purposive behavior: specifically, hazing is done to bring about solidarity through shared experience of an adversarial nature.

Incognito and the Dolphins fucking suck at hazing. It's just incredible how many people manage to convert hazing as an opportunity to just be mean. I guess that's how you identify the asshole. How other grown men who can ostensibly defend themselves physically go along with such bullshit, though, is utterly beyond me.

pdaj · Nov 4, 2013

Chris Kouffman ‏@ckparrot 5m
I BELIEVE being non football illness reserve impacts Martin's pay status. His Harvard educated lawyer parents possibly didn't like that.

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Chris Kouffman ‏@ckparrot5m
The key in all this is the Dolphins' immediate response to Martin's absence was to blame an illness and put him on the NFI.
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Chris Kouffman ‏@ckparrot6m
And it gives the look that Martin is missing football because he's got mental illness, but his lawyers are trying to connect it to bullying
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Chris Kouffman ‏@ckparrot7m
Combine that with Martin and Incognito regularly hanging out and talking to one another off field after those texts, and Martins recent text
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Chris Kouffman ‏@ckparrot9m
The primary evidence for the bullying has the LOOK of being pretty old, 6 months or more, around the time Martin supposedly sought Philbin.
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Chris Kouffman ‏@ckparrot13m
Mental issues are a non-football illness. They = no pay. Later, this bullying thing comes out. Bullying would be football related = paid.
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Chris Kouffman ‏@ckparrot14m
When Martin initially left the team, the first story to come out was his driving to a hospital for treatment of mental issues.
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Jim Trotter ‏@SI_JimTrotter59m
Said one personnel man (who's not alone): "Instead of being a man and confronting him, (Martin) acted like a coward and told like a kid."

Retweeted by Chris Kouffmanhttps://twitter.com/ckparrot
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Dave Hyde ‏@davehydesports43m
The worst part of this is the Dolphins were blindsided by this Incognito-Martin saga. Those in charge - trust me - had no idea.

Retweeted by Chris Kouffmanhttps://twitter.com/ckparrot
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Edit: While I still tend to believe Incognito is a POS, I'm inclined to wait until more info comes out to formulate any conclusions. The VM transcript alone is pretty damning, but I'd more interested in hearing the message/context. Was the O-line unit always referring to each other in this fashion? Perhaps the entire unit, aside from Martin? (If this is the case, that's a huge problem.) As the tweets above mention, Incognito's messages to Martin took place 6 months ago. Why did Martin keep on hanging out with him off the field?

I still receive some VM from a handful of friends that go like this. "Hey, you f---- son of b--ch, are still working the corner of Broad St? Haha, miss you, man. Call me back." I'm reminded of the sensitivity training scene from Rescue Me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egAMgNY84do

Richie's father claims that Martin attempted suicide 3 times in his past. Is this true? If Martin's absence is officially designated as personal/mental, he does not get paid during his absence. However, if Martin's leave is due to bullying/abuse, he does get paid. Thus, there is some incentive for deemphasize any role an unhealthy emotional/mental state may have played in this.

Of course, it all could be as simple as it looks. Incognito targets Martin and never stops; Martin finally loses it; and now it's all being brought to the surface. But in my years of managing staff, things are rarely that cut and dry.

I'm really interested in finding out if Martin ever approached the coaching staff prior to all this.

Incognito is one of the few holdovers remaining from the old Billy P. regime.

veritas · Nov 4, 2013

Tony C said:
Definitely more than slight differences: Richie is at a whole different level of scumbag-ness....and it does rise to actionable workplace abuse. That said, the basic analogy to Cooper holds: he'll be back in the league. The same union leading the charge to defend Martin will also not want to set a precedent of blackballing players. Maybe not this year and maybe there'll be a long suspension, but I don't see how he doesn't get back into the league at some point.

Blackballing players is hard to prove. Kerry Rhodes is pretty blatantly being blackballed at the moment and the union doesn't seem to concerned. And I think they'd be even less concerned about a known racist/asshole/etc being blackballed as opposed to a civil rights issue

JimBoSox9 · Nov 4, 2013

pdaj said:
Chris Kouffman ‏@ckparrot 5m
I BELIEVE being non football illness reserve impacts Martin's pay status. His Harvard educated lawyer parents possibly didn't like that.

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Chris Kouffman ‏@ckparrot 5m
The key in all this is the Dolphins' immediate response to Martin's absence was to blame an illness and put him on the NFI.

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Chris Kouffman ‏@ckparrot 6m
And it gives the look that Martin is missing football because he's got mental illness, but his lawyers are trying to connect it to bullying

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Chris Kouffman ‏@ckparrot 7m
Combine that with Martin and Incognito regularly hanging out and talking to one another off field after those texts, and Martins recent text

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Chris Kouffman ‏@ckparrot 9m
The primary evidence for the bullying has the LOOK of being pretty old, 6 months or more, around the time Martin supposedly sought Philbin.

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Chris Kouffman ‏@ckparrot 13m
Mental issues are a non-football illness. They = no pay. Later, this bullying thing comes out. Bullying would be football related = paid.

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Chris Kouffman ‏@ckparrot 14m
When Martin initially left the team, the first story to come out was his driving to a hospital for treatment of mental issues.

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Jim Trotter ‏@SI_JimTrotter 59m
Said one personnel man (who's not alone): "Instead of being a man and confronting him, (Martin) acted like a coward and told like a kid."

Retweeted by Chris Kouffmanhttps://twitter.com/ckparrot

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Dave Hyde ‏@davehydesports 43m
The worst part of this is the Dolphins were blindsided by this Incognito-Martin saga. Those in charge - trust me - had no idea.

Retweeted by Chris Kouffmanhttps://twitter.com/ckparrot

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FTR: Even though it got re-tweeted by that dunce Kouffman, I dunno if David Hyde's tweet should be lumped into the stupidity. On his feed directly, seems to me that he meant "worst" not as 'most awful thing about the situation', but 'thing that makes the dolphins mgmt look the most awful'. I'm pretty sure he was criticizing Philbin, not lamenting how the local heroes were blindsided by assassins.

Jnai · Nov 4, 2013

I wonder how much this kind of shit goes on inside the Patriots locker room.

I'm sure there's some rookie hazing bullshit, but I can't imagine anything near this level being tolerated by Wilfork, Brady, or any of the other captains. There's a certain amount of pride you should have being part of a team. This is awful.

NortheasternPJ · Nov 4, 2013

Jnai said:
I wonder how much this kind of shit goes on inside the Patriots locker room.

I'm sure there's some rookie hazing bullshit, but I can't imagine anything near this level being tolerated by Wilfork, Brady, or any of the other captains. There's a certain amount of pride you should have being part of a team. This is awful.

WHO'S BUYING ME DINNER, BITCH? I ONLY MADE 150 MILLION LAST YEAR!

HEY EDELMAN, REMEMBER WHEN I SLAPPED YOUR MOM???

NatetheGreat · Nov 4, 2013

SeoulSoxFan said:
This is a sad (but not surprising) comment coming from the Miami HQ. Sounds like what a bully's parent might say to defend his kid.

Yeah this is really fucked up and pathetic. "Stop snitching" is the sort of thing you'd expect from knuckleheads on the corner, not the front office of a major franchise.

PedroKsBambino · Nov 4, 2013

Jnai said:
I wonder how much this kind of shit goes on inside the Patriots locker room.

I'm sure there's some rookie hazing bullshit, but I can't imagine anything near this level being tolerated by Wilfork, Brady, or any of the other captains. There's a certain amount of pride you should have being part of a team. This is awful.

The Bruschi piece on ESPN suggests it happens, but at a lower scale, and that eventually the captains and Belichick cut it off.

One thing about Pats is that Wilfork is clearly the biggest alpha dog in there, and he is by all accounts a good guy with good judgment; tough to act like Incognito if Wilfork is there and even bigger and stronger than you are.

No idea how teammates think of Brady, but I'm sure they all realize he has a direct line to BB and Kraft and that, if nothing else, means you need to listen to him.

Much different to have those guys at the front of the lockerroom than to have Ryan Tannehill, for example.

rymflaherty · Nov 4, 2013

NatetheGreat said:
Yeah this is really fucked up and pathetic. "Stop snitching" is the sort of thing you'd expect from knuckleheads on the corner, not the front office of a major franchise.

Plus, going by what we've heard, he didn't really "tell" so much as he finally snapped.
I'd put money on Martin's mindset, in that moment, being I'm going to jump over this tray and strangle Richie or I've had enough I need to leave. Obviously he choose removing himself from the environment....Again, not really "telling".

Martin is just in the unique situation where he is making a lot of money, and his leaving is followed closely by reporters that make it national news.

pdaj · Nov 4, 2013

Brent Grimes's wife, Miko, who is often entertaining, offers her thoughts on the situation. As an NFL wife, she probably has more insight into the team/locker room culture than most.

Miko Grimes ‏@iHeartMiko1h
Then, in private, u say "my bad, i went to far" and yall kiss and make up. #TheGirlVersion
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Miko Grimes ‏@iHeartMiko1h
When roasting, if u care, u gotta pay attention to the *fatal blow* Let em catch their breath b4 u come back with another punch to the gut.
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Miko Grimes ‏@iHeartMiko1h
I have been on the end of the winning side where ppl cant match my witty comebacks and they get pissed and wanna fight me.
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Miko Grimes ‏@iHeartMiko1h
U ever joke with ur friends and then all of a sudden they are roasting the shit out of u and ur material gets old, so now u wanna swing? Lol
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Miko Grimes ‏@iHeartMiko1h
Im not saying that's what happened, im just saying would u still feel bad for Martin and hate Incognito? Serious question.
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Miko Grimes ‏@iHeartMiko1h
Would u guys feel any different if u heard Martin and Incognito had a joking/racial dissing relationship with each other? That happens.
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I also find it interesting that Mike Pouncey's last tweet is the following re-tweet of Richie Incognito's ..

Richie incognito ‏@68INCOGNITO3 Nov
Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth. Buddha

Buddha

Retweeted by Mike Pouncey

soxfan121 · Nov 4, 2013

Tony C said:
Definitely more than slight differences: Richie is at a whole different level of scumbag-ness....and it does rise to actionable workplace abuse. That said, the basic analogy to Cooper holds: he'll be back in the league. The same union leading the charge to defend Martin will also not want to set a precedent of blackballing players. Maybe not this year and maybe there'll be a long suspension, but I don't see how he doesn't get back into the league at some point.

No Tony, the analogy to Cooper does not hold. Again, Cooper did not direct his racist stupidity at any one individual and most certainly did not direct it at a teammate. Cooper did not say stupid and racist things at the team facility; he said them at a country music concert, on his own personal time. And Cooper immediately apologized. Do not misconstrue - Riley Cooper fucked up. But he did so in a general way and immediately took steps to atone and make amends.

Richie Incognito engaged in a pattern of harassment over a lengthy period of time. He targeted one individual. He did it in the team facility. He left evidence of his racist and stupid behavior on text and voicemail. And when confronted about it, he doubled down and tried to bully an ESPN employee over twitter. He has not apologized to Martin - he has threatened a third person (Schefter) and has a member of his family (allegedly) defending him by going so far over the top that even Richie's behavior looks sane by comparison.

And as veritas points out, the NFLPA isn't doing a damned thing about Kerry Rhodes being "blackballed", so that's a red herring and irrelevant.

Perhaps you are correct and Incognito will play in the NFL again. Perhaps he is good enough (as Gunfighter09 points out) to be the Jonathan Vilma or Will Smith of this situation. Or maybe he's the Anthony Hargrove - not good enough to justify the media circus that will ensue.

Regardless, the connection of what Richie Incognito is alleged to have done is not in the same UNIVERSE as what Riley Cooper did. Not even close and not worth comparing. One is garden variety stupidity/racism - the other is possibly criminal and absolutely on a whole other level due to the threats of violence and/or the involvement of specific individuals.

Shelterdog · Nov 4, 2013

pdaj said:
Brent Grimes's wife, Miko, who is often entertaining, offers her thoughts on the situation. As an NFL wife, she probably has more insight into the team/locker room culture than most.
....

I also find it interesting that Mike Pouncey's last tweet is the following re-tweet of Richie Incognito's ..

I don't find a single thing that Mike Pouncey has to say interesting. Once you wear the free hernandez hat you're off of my list of thought leaders.

And I think we're way beyond the point where we can say martin just snapped in reaction to good-natured ribbing, so Miko doesn't do much for me either.

E5 Yaz · Nov 4, 2013

Personally, I don't give a shit what happens to Incognito at this point. I'm more interested in what happens to Martin.

After all, he is the victim

JimD · Nov 4, 2013

Bullying is a major hot-button issue in our society, as any parent with kids in school is well aware of. The NFL is already dealing with a small but growing number of parents who are preventing their sons from playing football due to the head-injury issue, and now this. Goodell is going to come down like a ton of bricks on everyone responsible, and the message will be made pretty damn clear to the other FO's not to sign Incognito.

rymflaherty · Nov 4, 2013

"Would u guys feel any different if u heard Martin and Incognito had a joking/racial dissing relationship with each other? That happens." - Miko Grimes

But the problem is in many of those types of relationships it may seem that way to the antagonist. Meanwhile the other party may play around because they feel they are obliged to, they may not see another option. They may smile, but they are really harboring resentment and it's eating away at them.

I think it's totally plausible to think Incognito didn't think he was doing anything "wrong". But his intentions have little bearing on how the actions were perceived by Martin.
*Edit* And that comment just represents the thing that has bothered me most. That people can shrug it off as being typical. Which then leads to the perception Martin is weak, and it's impossible to imagine these things could bother him.

PBDWake · Nov 4, 2013

By the way, do we even know that he didn't confront Incognito? Threats don't usually come out until someone is being non-compliant with what you want, no? What happens if we find out that he DID stand up to Incognito, and he responded with threats of violence? How much more of a douche do the "He's a coward" people look like then?

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