Red Sox fire Juan Nieves
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This is what I hate about baseball coaches.
We have no idea how effective they are. We have no idea what one does that another one doesn't. We have no idea whether Juan Nieves is a fall guy or if there's a serious problem. We have no fucking clue about any of it so whenever there's a move made there's a ton of speculation and none of it is based in anything resembling fact.
We have no idea how effective they are. We have no idea what one does that another one doesn't. We have no idea whether Juan Nieves is a fall guy or if there's a serious problem. We have no fucking clue about any of it so whenever there's a move made there's a ton of speculation and none of it is based in anything resembling fact.
Effective mound visits. Pitching coach ideally can give struggling pitcher some physical adjustment to get him back on track. I did say ideally. Not much stopping of bleeding going on here hence a lot of short outings from starters.geoduck no quahog said:
Normally in a case like this I'd wonder how much they're taking into consideration how little time the catchers have had to work with the pitching staff. But given Farrell's experience as pitching coach I'd imagine he knew there were other factors going wrong here. Schilling's on the air comments on Sunday about Joe Kelly's approach were quite telling.
I imagine Ben is next.mauidano said:
It's gonna take more than Nieves to placate the mob mentality. So now Chili Davis is on the hot seat as well? Just horrible offensive output.
Honest question... I've read back through from his hiring to current in google articles, and I haven't seen any spectacular highlights that show him to be an amazing pitching coach. Am I missing something to this that goes beyond reactionary on him getting canned, last years pitching didn't seem to over perform or inspire - maybe it was just time to part ways and try new a new approach?
Mauidano, look at Chili's past record as hitting coach for the A's. He did wonders there with players that other teams had given up on. Yankees wanted to hire him this year but he chose to come to the Sox (probably more $). NYY is obviously a smart org. When he played for the Giants & Halos, countless players credited him for helping them become better hitters. When the Sox hired him, I had several A's and Angels fans (I'm in CA) tell me how great he is and sent me several articles touting his effectiveness. Chili's rep has him as one of the best hitting coaches in the game. They've only played 28 games under Chili; Nieves has been there a couple of years for them to assess his coaching.
Ryan Hannable @RyanHannable 11s11 seconds ago
On conference call Cherington thanks Nieves for everything he did. "Terrific guy, quality coach." Needed "different voice."
On conference call Cherington thanks Nieves for everything he did. "Terrific guy, quality coach." Needed "different voice."
Tim Britton @TimBritton 4s4 seconds ago
Cherington: "John and I felt that in order to push forward and make improvement, we needed to make a change at that position."
Cherington: "John and I felt that in order to push forward and make improvement, we needed to make a change at that position."
Alex Speier @alexspeier 52s53 seconds ago
Cherington: Sox currently working on a replacement for Nieves. Not clear that will happen by tomorrow in Toronto.
Cherington: Sox currently working on a replacement for Nieves. Not clear that will happen by tomorrow in Toronto.
Maureen Mullen @MaureenaMullen 35s35 seconds ago
Farrell: not sure "connection was made with current group" of starting pitchers by Nieves
Farrell: not sure "connection was made with current group" of starting pitchers by Nieves
Dave Duncan would throw up his hands with this bunch of starters.
I look at it as a signal the FO is not going to settle for another bad year. Empty seats at a Yankees series and another slow start are probably not going over well.
Farrell should be looking over his shoulder. They are not breaking up this team again and starting over. The manager goes next if things don't improve.
I look at it as a signal the FO is not going to settle for another bad year. Empty seats at a Yankees series and another slow start are probably not going over well.
Farrell should be looking over his shoulder. They are not breaking up this team again and starting over. The manager goes next if things don't improve.
Rob Bradford @bradfo 13s13 seconds ago
Cherington: 'Nothing happened specifically recently that precipitated this' (in regards to Nieves dismissal)
Cherington: 'Nothing happened specifically recently that precipitated this' (in regards to Nieves dismissal)
Rob Bradford @bradfo now
Perceived inability by Nieves to get through to current group of starters like he had with previous rotations seems biggest issue
Perceived inability by Nieves to get through to current group of starters like he had with previous rotations seems biggest issue
I don't think JF is on the block. Though it will be interesting to see if the guy they bring in is a star like Duncan/Peterson or a friend of John. If the latter, I think you can conclude that the manager is quite safe.
The more I think about this, I think the Oliver Stone Culture is over complicating this. Nieves, for whatever reason, probably just wasn't reaching these guys. And things suck. You can't sack the whole staff. Don't we want the Sox to be proactive when things aren't working?
The more I think about this, I think the Oliver Stone Culture is over complicating this. Nieves, for whatever reason, probably just wasn't reaching these guys. And things suck. You can't sack the whole staff. Don't we want the Sox to be proactive when things aren't working?
It seemed like the starters really bonded in ST this year. 2 old (Kelley for a half year) and 3 new. Not sure if Nieves was in on that, but I'd accept that the starters are something of a "group."
im Britton @TimBritton 6s6 seconds ago
Farrell: "The biggest thing is the [next] pitching coach has to have the ability to connect and adjust."
Farrell: "The biggest thing is the [next] pitching coach has to have the ability to connect and adjust."
Whatever Nieves was doing to try to get this staff to perform up to par with expectations (or even with their previous level of performance) wasn't working. It's not about making him a scapegoat. It's about trying something else.
And, yes, maybe it's the case that the staff is just truly terrible, despite having been more successful in the past. If that's the case, they'll get different players. And if it turns out that Cherington's approach is the problem, they'll get a different GM.
But this makes total sense as a first step toward trying to solve what seems like it should be a solvable problem.
And, yes, maybe it's the case that the staff is just truly terrible, despite having been more successful in the past. If that's the case, they'll get different players. And if it turns out that Cherington's approach is the problem, they'll get a different GM.
But this makes total sense as a first step toward trying to solve what seems like it should be a solvable problem.
Really? I'd say it is exactly as bad as many of us expected. What performance is shocking? Miley having a tough time moving to the AL? Buchholz being enigmatic? Masterson being iffy at best? Koji being less reliable? Other bullpen arms being as unpredictable as bullpen arms always are?Rudy Pemberton said:
Maybe it is early, but, if your entire pitching staff is dramatically underperforming their career numbers I don't think canning the pitching coach is a bad idea.
I don't get the "they are bad pitchers" argument. If a pitching coach has no impact why is he here? If he does have an impact he should takes some of the blame for every guy on the staff performing well below their normal level.
I don't get the "they are bad pitchers" argument. If a pitching coach has no impact why is he here? If he does have an impact he should takes some of the blame for every guy on the staff performing well below their normal level.
But extensions for managers don't guarantee job-security. They just don't want a manager to go into a season on the last year of his contract, because too many of the veterans (with longer contracts) might tune him out, since they assume he'll be gone soon. Giving a manager an extension is cheap money if it gives him more perceived authority.rembrat said:
And I'm not a Farrell detractor, but you look at all the results of all the former "prospects" (Ranaudo, Rubby, Webster, JBJ, Bogaerts-2014) who failed and his survival might depend upon how well the next wave (including Betts, who looks fine) are integrated into the mix.
So dismissing Nieves may well have been Farrell's decision, on his own. His job is not in imminent danger, but, regardless of the Sox's W-L record, their future better look very good by September.
bosockboy said:
I remember when John "Cumby" Cumberland was fired in Sept 2001 -- the night Carl Everett ruined Mussina's no-hitter. But Cumby was only the interim coach, appointed to replace Kerrigan who had became manager 3 weeks earlier. Anyone else remember how nasty and how public he was after his dismissal? whew...
This is pure exaggeration. Pick the worst ERA for each starter that could serve as a basis for projection - career/3 year/2014 - and the current starting staff has given up 15 more runs than that. Absolutely no one predicted this level of underperformance - or maybe you can find the guy that predicted a 7.xx ERA for Miley or the study that shows that pitchers moving from the NL to the AL have 3 runs tacked onto their ERA.nattysez said:
Maureen Mullen @MaureenaMullen 18s18 seconds ago
Possible RedSox pitching coach candidates: Treuel, Kipper, Sauveur...
Possible RedSox pitching coach candidates: Treuel, Kipper, Sauveur...
E5 Yaz said:
If you think that analogy applies to the current situation.
The guy had never been a pitching coach before he got here (I know, bullpen coach), he's working for a manager with extensive experience as a pitching coach, and we're in the midst of a hellacious stretch of pitching performance.
Sometimes it's OK to just accept that it's someone's ship and they're going to sail it the way they prefer.
Sometimes people are just sincerely trying to improve using the methods available to them. Not everything is some conspiracy theory.
rembrat said:
So if Farrell and Ben sincerely believe a change needs to be made, it's better they don't do it for a couple months because it might cause embarrassment?
Whether it was Nieves or not, the fact is the total pitching staff has underachieved by a wide margin so far this season. It was time for a new voice to direct the staff. One thing is clear, it sure can't hurt, given the state this pitching staff is in currently.
E5 Yaz said:
I think the problem is people are filling in some massive blanks with whatever side story they want here. There's absolutely no evidence that this is a scapegoat situation. They don't need a scapegoat. We don't see how the meetings go. We have absolutely no idea whatsoever what conversations happened in the clubhouse.
This happens very, very commonly in baseball all the time. This is precisely NOT cutting off the finger to cure toenail fungus. It's just not sitting around waiting for it to go away. If they feel that he's not "getting through" to the players or whatever, then it's ok to fire him and try another voice. No one is saying this is supposed to magically fix the rotation, either. It's a relatively small move to try to shake things up.
Nieves will keep finding work. Coaches are disposable commodities. I feel like there's a good chance that there are people posting in this thread that are more upset about this than nieves is.
I have been told that this is impossible. Peripherals say that the pitching will improve.E5 Yaz said:
The new guy can't lose.
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