The Red Sox just announced the dismissal of pitching coach Juan Nieves.
https://twitter.com/brianmacp/status/596351520842522624
https://twitter.com/brianmacp/status/596351520842522624
Red Sox fire Juan Nieves
- Thread starter Corsi
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First Mujica, now Nieves. Heads are starting to roll on Yawkey Way. The impatient "DO SOMETHING" crowd is starting to get what they want with regard to the pitching staff.
Wow. It's always hard to know how much blame to place at the feet of the pitching coach, but considering so many observers thought this starting rotation would be just as bad as it is, it really seems like Nieves is taking the fall for Ben's bad offseason.
So I guess the FO's view is that the hitting is something that will more or less fix itself over time, while the pitching has much deeper problems than just a bad month.
I'm not sure if this is good or bad news, but at least they are admitting the problem.
I'm not sure if this is good or bad news, but at least they are admitting the problem.
MyDaughterLovesTomGordon said:
I don't recall any observers thinking it would be this bad. Every single pitcher on the staff has underperformed his career numbers and Farrell talked openly to the media about being predictable. Nieves had no successes he could point to and didn't have the confidence of his manager. He had to go.
Ken Rosenthal @Ken_Rosenthal 1m1 minute ago
#RedSox announce firing of pitching coach Juan Nieves. Suggestion: Find better pitchers.
Pete Abraham @PeteAbe 5m5 minutes ago
#RedSox fired pitching coach Juan Nieves, team announces. There’s one fall guy.
Jason Mastrodonato @JMastrodonato 5m5 minutes ago
Juan Nieves, the fall guy? Red Sox have fired their pitching coach.
Dan Sostek @dan_sostek 20s21 seconds ago
Scapegoating Juan Nieves for the staff's issues is pretty ridiculous. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig.
#RedSox announce firing of pitching coach Juan Nieves. Suggestion: Find better pitchers.
Pete Abraham @PeteAbe 5m5 minutes ago
#RedSox fired pitching coach Juan Nieves, team announces. There’s one fall guy.
Jason Mastrodonato @JMastrodonato 5m5 minutes ago
Juan Nieves, the fall guy? Red Sox have fired their pitching coach.
Dan Sostek @dan_sostek 20s21 seconds ago
Scapegoating Juan Nieves for the staff's issues is pretty ridiculous. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig.
Even though it's been a disastrous month for Red Sox starters, I find this surprising, given that Farrell has been a pitching coach and must know the frustration when pitchers don't execute and when bad luck compounds that lack of execution.
There must have been some communication issue between Nieves and the staff or between Farrell and Nieves. Somehow I don't think a new pitching coach is going to "cure" Clay or add 4 mph to Masterson's fastball. But if the "luck" improves, the next guy will start off looking like a savior.
There must have been some communication issue between Nieves and the staff or between Farrell and Nieves. Somehow I don't think a new pitching coach is going to "cure" Clay or add 4 mph to Masterson's fastball. But if the "luck" improves, the next guy will start off looking like a savior.
Maureen Mullen @MaureenaMullen 2m2 minutes ago
Can't fire a pitching staff so Red Sox fire pitching coach Juan Nieves instead.
Emily Kaplan @emilymkaplan 5m5 minutes ago
Good day for a news dump in New England.
Can't fire a pitching staff so Red Sox fire pitching coach Juan Nieves instead.
Emily Kaplan @emilymkaplan 5m5 minutes ago
Good day for a news dump in New England.
Clearly Nieves is being at least somewhat scapegoated (although we don't have the full story).
That said, this is probably the *least* disruptive "let's shake things up" outside of moving Masterson to the pen or DL'ing someone.
The team wasn't trading Buchholz or Porcello or Miley or Kelly. They weren't DFAing them.
I am not a fan of knee jerk moves, but in the grand scheme of things, it's I'd argue that at least this panic move isn't as bad as another panic move would have been.
That said, this is probably the *least* disruptive "let's shake things up" outside of moving Masterson to the pen or DL'ing someone.
The team wasn't trading Buchholz or Porcello or Miley or Kelly. They weren't DFAing them.
I am not a fan of knee jerk moves, but in the grand scheme of things, it's I'd argue that at least this panic move isn't as bad as another panic move would have been.
I don't know, Nieves may be the fall guy, but I don't think he ever lived up to his reputation coming here.
I was surprised there wasn't a "Nieves on the hot seat" thread, considering how many of the staff were underperforming.
Quote from earlier this week that I posted in the SP thread
Ryan Hannable @RyanHannable 10m10 minutes ago
Farrell indicated he's maybe done more 1-on-1 work with the pitchers than he's done in the past given the early season struggles.
So perhaps communication or clubhouse issuers
Ryan Hannable @RyanHannable 10m10 minutes ago
Farrell indicated he's maybe done more 1-on-1 work with the pitchers than he's done in the past given the early season struggles.
So perhaps communication or clubhouse issuers
The immediate, knee jerk reaction -- "they're making him the fall guy/scape-goat" -- ignores that JF might actually think that Nieves isn't a good communicator or teaches pitching in a sub-optimal way. Said differently, the explanation may well go beyond PR or mollifying fans and other critics.
rembrat said:
This reeks of Larry.
Trying to appease the stakeholders by convincing them that the pitching staff's problems would be solved by a change in coaching.
I hate this. Fall guy sounds about right; Nieves isn't the one who's been bringing in terrible pitchers. Masterson? Buchholz? Really? For the first time, I must say I'm starting to lose faith in this front office.
It can be a problem much bigger than Nieves and still make sense to fire Nieves. It is a strawman to argue that this firing is an attempt to place all the blame for the Sox poor pitching on Nieves.
The pitching staff is under-performing their projected baseline. I add to that the fact that the manager is an excellent pitching coach himself and, presumably, able to assess the job that Nieves was doing. I guess he found his efforts/results lacking. When it comes to evaluating pitching coaches, I would give JF the benefit of the doubt.
The pitching staff is under-performing their projected baseline. I add to that the fact that the manager is an excellent pitching coach himself and, presumably, able to assess the job that Nieves was doing. I guess he found his efforts/results lacking. When it comes to evaluating pitching coaches, I would give JF the benefit of the doubt.
This is about a leadership and communication thing, not performance. If Farrell is feeling like he has to step in to address issues, then what does that say about 1. Nieves' ability or initative to do so himself and 2. Farrell's / the team's confidence that he can do so? I think it says that they don't see Nieves as the guy.
Taking the blame implies that they are making a gesture. This is a forward looking move in where the pitchers need to get. Nieves clearly wasn't the guy.
Taking the blame implies that they are making a gesture. This is a forward looking move in where the pitchers need to get. Nieves clearly wasn't the guy.
Weren't we asking, on this very board, just a week ago if there was an issue with Nieves because Farrell called that meeting of the pitching staff to address the issue of predictability and lack of aggression? People were questioning why it took Farrell pointing this out when it should have been something addressed by the pitching coach. I know I tried to pass it off as something that might have only jumped out to an observer who wasn't on the inside of every meeting and strategy session, but clearly that was a vote of no confidence in the pitching coach. Now a week later, that pitching coach is out. How is this a surprise or "scapegoating"?
Rembrat, sometimes employers and direct supervisors have high hopes and good reason to believe that a prospective hire is dead solid perfect for a particular job and, sadly, a year or two later the actual experience of working with him leads them to revise those expectations or need to dismiss the employee.
This could be one of those situations.
I know it's the Sox and everyone loves to paint Larry and the rest of the front office who was in place when they won 3 WS as the bad guys, but not everything is about shifting blame and palace intrigue.
This could be one of those situations.
I know it's the Sox and everyone loves to paint Larry and the rest of the front office who was in place when they won 3 WS as the bad guys, but not everything is about shifting blame and palace intrigue.
These guys aren't rookie pitchers. They should know how to adapt to difficult and evolving situations using mostly their own abilities and experience.
I'm not saying that a pitching coach is irrelevant but that this smells like a PR message to the fans..
IMO Nieves=scapegoat
I'm not saying that a pitching coach is irrelevant but that this smells like a PR message to the fans..
IMO Nieves=scapegoat
Agree with yecul and ad Red(s)HawksFan...Farrell stepping in a few weeks ago was an indication that Nieves wasn't performing as they wanted him to be.
Is it all his fault? Certainly not. If this is the only change they make, then one could argue he's a scapegoat. I doubt this is the only change they make, though.
Is it all his fault? Certainly not. If this is the only change they make, then one could argue he's a scapegoat. I doubt this is the only change they make, though.
yecul said:
We'll be able to tell whether it's a "gesture" or "looking forward, if the Sox already have a replacement identified. Maybe Mike Cather, formerly of the Sox minor league system (and now with the Cubs AAA affiliate as pitching coach), who was effective in working with Buchholz, or maybe Bob Kipper, currently pitching coach with the PawSox, and is credited with getting E Rodriguez back on track with the Sea Dogs last year.
Assuming a pitching coach performs his "daily duties," the contribution of a pitching coach is usually at the margins. If Farrell has a particular candidate in mind, he may be hoping for a particular contribution in mind that may rescue the team.
soxhop411 said:
This is why I don't get why people are jumping on the scapegoat bandwagon here. It sounds like Farrell and Nieves have differences of opinion on how to handle the pitching staff, so they let him go. This isn't a regular 9-5 job. Coaches are fired and re-hired all the time. When things aren't working out one way, you try another approach. I don't see any problem here at all. Every pitcher on the team is underperforming and Farrell has had to step in to do his job. So, they try another approach. That's baseball.
Peter Gammons @pgammo 51s51 seconds ago
As disappointed as I am for Juan Nieves, the first replacement name that came to mind is Charles Nagy
As disappointed as I am for Juan Nieves, the first replacement name that came to mind is Charles Nagy
Yea, there has too be more to this story. This isn't going to calm the pitchforks so something had to happen behind the scenes that caused this.
TheoShmeo said:
The timing is just off for me. If they felt Neives wasn't working out he could have been let go during the offseason. But I can totally see your side of things as in these 8 weeks were the last straw or something.
On the brightside, they're doing something so the game thread folks should be happy.
Red(s)HawksFan said:
Totally agree. I was one of those who said, "nothing to see here, it's kinda like BB getting with the defense during a game." Wrongo boyo.
Unless Farrell has some sort of deep Machiavelli thing going on where he said, "I'll publicize my meeting *this* week so I can scapegoat him *next* week, this is not scapegoating as I understand the term. Its more like being put on double secret probation and then failing.
EDIT: The proximity to Swihart taking over may play a role, too. Maybe calling games isn't Nieves's strong suit.
2d EDIT: Pedro to the rescue?
Wow, this one took me by surprise. I wonder if Farrell will assume pitching coach responsibilities (in addition to manager), at least for a while?
drbretto said:
Yes, and the idea of how much a pitching coach matters also cuts multiple ways.
Many of those up in arms over Nieves' dismissal are essentially using the argument "the players are the ones who actually play baseball, they are veterans and the coach isn't that important to their success."
If that's the case, it makes the argument of coaches being fungible assets more strongly. If Nieves isn't the reason the SP are sucking, outside of feeling empathetic for the guy, why should we get worked up over the fact that he was dismissed?
This is about the most insight we're gonna get. I can't believe the Sox would do this if the role of pitching coach were being carried out properly. The fact that the manager has to or wants to intervene suggests maybe the arrangement wasn't ideal. If Farrell wants to be a Belichick-like de facto D Coordinator, then they need someone to act more like, I dunno, an assistant pitching coach? But more likely Farrell was intervening because he felt Nieves wasn't making it work.soxhop411 said:
Rudy Pemberton said:
If pitching coaches do matter, Nieves clearly wasn't delivering. If they don't matter, there's no loss in firing the guy after paying him for two years to do essentially nothing.
If it's somewhere in between, the pitchers will get a new face and a new voice to interact with - it may make them think about their routine, pitch selection, execution, and overall strategy in a new light. May help, unlikely to hurt.
Also, it's clearly a sign from management (between Mujica and Nieves) that it's not safe to "coast" on the team and hope things get better in August.
czar said:
I'd say the ire in this scenario is directed at what would be FO incompetence, not so much Nieves per se, sympathy and all that. If pitching coaches do not matter, then whoever comes next will make little difference. The pitchers are just terrible, that's what I'm worked up about. Unless Breslow, Masterson, Miley, relying on Buchholz, all that was done because Nieves is the one who pushed it. Firing Nieves is easy; the fear here is that it really doesn't solve anything because the real issues are elsewhere, i.e. the available talent.
I've always felt that firing the manager was a poor solution to an underperforming team, but I think coaches are a bit different. We're not privy to how they actually interact with and engage the players they're supposed to instruct, and that's a large part of their job.
If he was fired just as the fall guy or as a way to shake up an underperforming staff, that's pretty bad & I hope this FO wouldn't make such a knee jerk decision. But if Farrel has to spend a lot of time working with the pitchers to help sort out their issues because Nieves isn't connecting with the staff, then firing him was the right move, pithy sound bites from talking heads be damned.
If he was fired just as the fall guy or as a way to shake up an underperforming staff, that's pretty bad & I hope this FO wouldn't make such a knee jerk decision. But if Farrel has to spend a lot of time working with the pitchers to help sort out their issues because Nieves isn't connecting with the staff, then firing him was the right move, pithy sound bites from talking heads be damned.
If anything, this is the opposite of a panic move. It's actually a nice little balance between the "wait it out" crowd and the "do something about it" crowd. This is the much easier move that may or may not help before genuinely panicking and replacing half the pitching staff.
It seems like the right move to me.
It seems like the right move to me.
Mechanics, pitch selection, off day routines.
What else does a pitchimg coach do? He's not responsible for execution.
I'm willing to believe he fucked up on those other three things though.
What else does a pitchimg coach do? He's not responsible for execution.
I'm willing to believe he fucked up on those other three things though.
Just because they're veterans and should know how to adapt doesn't mean they aren't going into games with less than ideal game plans that originated from Nieves.bankshot1 said:
Or that a pitching coach shouldn't be your first and most useful sounding board as a pitcher when you're struggling.
I see no way this move happens this early without Farrell and Cherington both being on the same page. Neither one seems like the type to scapegoat someone the first week of May because the team is struggling. For whatever reason they do not feel like he's the right guy going forward, that is entirely their call to make. Now it's on them to show it was the right call.
Snoop Soxy Dogg said:
OK, sure, but what has materially changed about the FO's competence between yesterday and today?
Firing Nieves doesn't mean they magically get to unsign their FAs (I also assume they are not nearly as panicked as SoSH is about their offseason) and acknowledge "yep, we suck." It also doesn't mean that they were worried about the staff yesterday and said "OK, Nieves fired, all good, let's get wasted!"
I guess I view this like changing spark plugs to fix a misfire in your car. Sure you could have way bigger problems than just spark plugs, but they are a cheap, easy, "let's see what happens" fix. Plus, if it's something major (i.e., all five pitchers actually do suck), you might be totally screwed anyway.
Love this. Romine is right and the worst case scenario is that PCs don't have a big impact BUT this reminds the pitchers that crap results do have consequences. The idea that "these guys are pros, they shouldn't need coaches" underestimates how tough it is to pitch well.
This is all correct. Call him the fall guy if you want, but he put himself in a position that made it easy to fall.Rovin Romine said:
This move can't hurt. It might not help, but it can't hurt. I am generally in favor of doing things to disrupt potential complacency in sports because complacency is dangerous for organizations and athletes.
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