Pritchard Extended

bellowthecat

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Rondo and PP are both small guards with good handles and a nose for rebounds. Other than that their games don't overlap at all. If Rondo could shoot like PP he might still be playing, while PP dreams of making the kind of head turning reads that Rondo made routine.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I'm still skeptical of PP in the playoffs. I think his minutes will be down and his usage will be more matchup based. And the Celtics will play more double big with Brown sliding to guard when one of White or Holiday is out. I like him though. Glad we have him locked up for 3 more years.
 

bakahump

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We say "Well in the playoffs....." and then bash guys like PP. We then say "JB/White/Jrue will cover his mins..."

All fair and all likely true.

But the regular season counts too.

We seem to forget that PP being able to Play REALLLY WELL during the REGULAR Season allows us to rest JB/White/Jrue pretty much at will during the regular season, and he has REALLY helped us get HCA throughout the playoffs.

Its alot easier for White/Jrue/JB to play 40 mins a night (even during the playoffs with regular off days) when you playing in front of your home crowd, rested, sleeping in your own bed and using your own facilities more then the other guys.

I think too often we "shit on" the regular season as a block to be checked. And as an extension shit on the guys who helped you be successful during that regular season. Instead of appreciating that they set you up for success in the Playoffs thats likely achieved by the Tatums and JBs.

IMHO PP could play 0 mins in the playoffs and still be big reason we win a championship.

Dont sleep on how much of a luxury PP and the byproducts he has helped provide are to this team as they move through the playoffs. (Sam, Kornet, Even Brisset and X too).
 

benhogan

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We say "Well in the playoffs....." and then bash guys like PP. We then say "JB/White/Jrue will cover his mins..."

All fair and all likely true.

But the regular season counts too.

We seem to forget that PP being able to Play REALLLY WELL during the REGULAR Season allows us to rest JB/White/Jrue pretty much at will during the regular season, and he has REALLY helped us get HCA throughout the playoffs.

Its alot easier for White/Jrue/JB to play 40 mins a night (even during the playoffs with regular off days) when you playing in front of your home crowd, rested, sleeping in your own bed and using your own facilities more then the other guys.

I think too often we "shit on" the regular season as a block to be checked. And as an extension shit on the guys who helped you be successful during that regular season. Instead of appreciating that they set you up for success in the Playoffs thats likely achieved by the Tatums and JBs.

IMHO PP could play 0 mins in the playoffs and still be big reason we win a championship.

Dont sleep on how much of a luxury PP and the byproducts he has helped provide are to this team as they move through the playoffs. (Sam, Kornet, Even Brisset and X too).
The NBA Media has completely slammed the Celtic bench this entire season. BUT I don't think anyone around here has "bashed PP" all that much?

Many of us thought before the season started that Brad's approach to the bench was going to be a source of strength.

The NBA Media completely whiffed on PBS' strategy behind the Celtic's bench/depth. This team was designed to have 2-3 All-Star level players on the floor throughout a close/important regular season game. In a playoff game, it will be 3-4 starters on the floor at all times

Brad added/kept ROLE players that could either SHOOT (Hauser, PP, Svi) or DEFEND at a high level (Brissett, Stevens, Banton, Walsh).

We'll see how Boston addresses 3rd string defensive Center, but it's also the easiest position to find depth. Either Queta or Knight could pass Luke for the spot or CJM could go "small" with Brissett (on Bam types). Half a dozen options there have me not really grabbing my pearls.

Injuries will happen but the C's are positioned better than every other NBA team to withstand that.

The BUCKs are much older throughout their rotation & are completely geared to Dame + Giannis being 100%.
Middleton is reminiscent of Kemba's final Celtic days, go for 25pts and then be out for weeks. Fools Gold.

Short MIL with every NBA team, fired up to give them their best shot on a January Tuesday night. No games off.
 

scottyno

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Pritchard has basically become Rondo with a shot. Not as clever with the ball, but still gets it done. He/his contract are now a major asset.
Rondo with a shot would have been a perennial all nba guy and a lock HOFer. So no
 

lovegtm

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I'm still skeptical of PP in the playoffs. I think his minutes will be down and his usage will be more matchup based. And the Celtics will play more double big with Brown sliding to guard when one of White or Holiday is out. I like him though. Glad we have him locked up for 3 more years.
He's making it harder to be skeptical that he could give 10-15 good minutes if needed. The Bucks were playing with playoff intensity, and couldn't find a way to hunt him. Obviously no Giannis, but Giannis doesn't play 48 minutes.
 

the moops

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?

He was clearly yapping it up with Beverly after Beverly did that “too small” clowning on Kornet.

I was sad PP didn’t do it back to Lopez after the shove.
Yea I heard Pat and immediately thought of Connaughton, and not Bev. Is this the first pair of teammates with that first name?
 

m0ckduck

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Yea I heard Pat and immediately thought of Connaughton, and not Bev. Is this the first pair of teammates with that first name?
Presumably.

The Lakers teams of the early 70s had a Pat (Riley), Happy, Gail, and Flynn. That's all I got.
 

k-factory

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You have to credit the coaching here too. Expanding Joe’s bench has likely helped a ton in developing player strengths and mitigating their weaknesses. Look at the Sam Hauser story. That’s another guy who many felt would be exploited easily and all he’s done is develop over the year into a credible defender, a surprisingly decent rebounder and an even more dependable shooter.
Of course it helps when you have six stars on the team but this bench has really shown up as a strength and I’m sure a lot of it is more focused and attentive coaching.
 

Bleedred

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You have to credit the coaching here too. Expanding Joe’s bench has likely helped a ton in developing player strengths and mitigating their weaknesses. Look at the Sam Hauser story. That’s another guy who many felt would be exploited easily and all he’s done is develop over the year into a credible defender, a surprisingly decent rebounder and an even more dependable shooter.
Of course it helps when you have six stars on the team but this bench has really shown up as a strength and I’m sure a lot of it is more focused and attentive coaching.
Al Horford isn't a star (if that's who you're identifying as the 6th), but your point stands.
 

Van Everyman

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Al Horford isn't a (if that's who you're identifying as the 6th), but your point stands.
I was about to say “How dare you suggest that ALFRED J HORFORD isn’t a star?” – and then I realized I wanted to know if that is his real full name.

It is. So … how dare you suggest that ALFRED J HORFORD isn’t a star?!?

h/t, @JohnnyTheBone.
 

lovegtm

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Kind of crazy that Porzingis wouldn't be considered a star, but it is what it is.
He had a weird career arc, where if he had had his Wizards season on the Knicks or Mavs, he would have made it, and then this year there's a perception that he misses a lot of games (true) and also that he's being dragged along by his co-stars.

Tatum: not a true superstar, look how good his teammates are.
Jaylen: eh, is he really All-NBA? Look how good his teammates are.
DWhite: supporting guy, how good would he really be without those teammates?
Mazzulla: sure, he's a good coach, but have you seen how good the players are?

At some point, somebody needs to get full credit for the fact that this team is really good. No one had a problem saying that similar great regular season teams (2016 GSW, 1996 Bulls) had great players and great coaching. But somehow, for the Celtics, everyone gets dragged down by being together.
 

Royal Reader

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He had a weird career arc, where if he had had his Wizards season on the Knicks or Mavs, he would have made it, and then this year there's a perception that he misses a lot of games (true) and also that he's being dragged along by his co-stars.

Tatum: not a true superstar, look how good his teammates are.
Jaylen: eh, is he really All-NBA? Look how good his teammates are.
DWhite: supporting guy, how good would he really be without those teammates?
Mazzulla: sure, he's a good coach, but have you seen how good the players are?

At some point, somebody needs to get full credit for the fact that this team is really good. No one had a problem saying that similar great regular season teams (2016 GSW, 1996 Bulls) had great players and great coaching. But somehow, for the Celtics, everyone gets dragged down by being together.
Reminds me a lot of the argument that Brady/Belichick weren't the GOATs because they had each other. Having so many guys who are good that the media doesn't know who to credit, while Luka Dončić gets lauded for his 2017 James Harden tribute act is fine by me.
 

HomeRunBaker

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From my memory Phil Jackson often got characterized as an average coach because Jordan and Pippen were so great. I never thought that was fair
Jackson was one of the first famous “players coaches” who understood how to appease his stars while still getting the best out of them….and maybe or maybe not throwing Doug Collins under the bus. Steve Kerr is another. There is no magical potion in being a great leader except getting your top people to follow you.

So many of the greatest coaching jobs don’t result in Championships. I’d argue that Jackson replacing prime MJ with Pete Myers, winning 55 games and getting one game away from the EC Finals was his best job.
 

TripleOT

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I’m finding it very difficult to not take a victory lap on Pritchard. I believed PP could become a Fred VanVleet type player if he consistently played with both pace, force, and confidence. That is what we are seeing this season. He might get hunted in the playoffs, but he has looked a lot better at fighting bigger players on switches, from initial positioning to the actual back down. Last night he had some success when switched onto DeRozan.At age 26, he has serious core strength. Boxing out Andre Drummond isn’t an easy task, but he managed to pin he legs with a low base for a big Celtics rebound when the game was close.

Dan Greenberg from Barstool pointed out that PP’s numbers over his three starts are similar to those of one of Steve Nash’s MVP seasons. Of course, it is a ridiculous stretch comparing three games to an entire season, but PP is doing some Nash-like things, like keeping his dribble alive as he drives to the basket and there’s no room to get a shot off, so he just continued across the baseline until he drops a pass into the paint of kicks it out for an open three. He is also a lot better at getting his shot off in the paint, showing an array of techniques we haven’t seen much of in the past, including fallaways, up and unders, and shoulder bogarting bigger defenders.

it’s ridiculous that one team can have DWhite, Jrue, and PP to run offense when needed. It will be devastating to me if Boston can’t retain both White and Jrue, but having a fully realized Pritchard will lessen the hurt.
 

slamminsammya

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This playoff run will be fascinating to watch in terms of how effectively Hauser and PP can hold up in the relentless hunts that are sure to come (what else will teams do!).
Somehow I feel like the extra scouting that comes with playoff games will have coaching staffs see that hunting Hauser is actually a pretty bad strategy, generally. I anticipate PP and Porzingis getting attacked much more than Hauser.
 

lovegtm

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I’m finding it very difficult to not take a victory lap on Pritchard. I believed PP could become a Fred VanVleet type player if he consistently played with both pace, force, and confidence. That is what we are seeing this season. He might get hunted in the playoffs, but he has looked a lot better at fighting bigger players on switches, from initial positioning to the actual back down. Last night he had some success when switched onto DeRozan.At age 26, he has serious core strength. Boxing out Andre Drummond isn’t an easy task, but he managed to pin he legs with a low base for a big Celtics rebound when the game was close.
People scoff at the FVV comp, but I've been making it for awhile too. They have nearly identical bodies and athleticism, and are both very strong, with strong bases. FVV can run an offense much better (Pritchard is catching up there), and PP is a better shooter and finisher near the rim (where FVV is really bad).

If people are so sure that PP will get hunted off the floor in the playoffs, they need to explain why that never happened to FVV. Again, literally the same body and same strength profile, same athletic limitations and positives.
 

Koufax

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Pritchard is so improved from last season it's ridiculous. I'm not used to see someone get both stronger and quicker, but has gained significantly in both ways. At the beginning of the season he would dribble into the paint near the basket and then seemingly have no idea what to do next. Now he either gets off a good shot or a good pass. Whatever he's on, I want some.
 

benhogan

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The pace that PP and White play with when bringing the ball up from the backcourt is incredibly entertaining.
It creates cross-matches & huntable situations. More of that please as opposed to letting the defense dig in, burning 10 seconds of shot clock, then commence a coma dribble ISO routine o_O
 

Imbricus

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In the past, I always thought this board was the most negative about Pritchard of any place (other GMs and scouts weren't as critical). I never quite understood it. "He can't pass." "He can't run an offense." "He can't defend and he'll just get hunted when he's on the floor." "All he can do is make three pointers." "He's not a point guard."

I mean, the guy won the Bob Cousy Point Guard of the Year award in college ... it just seemed transparently ridiculous this belief that he couldn't run an offense and could only stand off to the side and make three pointers (and if they weren't going in, he was useless). He has made a lot of progress this year (I think he's figuring out how to get his shot off near the basket, either using a speeded-up motion or a few fakes, without getting blocked, for instance), but I see it less as a big leap than a natural progression. It doesn't surprise me as much as it surprises others apparently. On defense, he's been pesky for a while (that was his style last year too), though his height/lack of athleticism will always hurt him at times (we saw that a few times in the Detroit game).

Last Pritchard myth to fall: "He's unplayable in the playoffs."
 

HomeRunBaker

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People scoff at the FVV comp, but I've been making it for awhile too. They have nearly identical bodies and athleticism, and are both very strong, with strong bases. FVV can run an offense much better (Pritchard is catching up there), and PP is a better shooter and finisher near the rim (where FVV is really bad).

If people are so sure that PP will get hunted off the floor in the playoffs, they need to explain why that never happened to FVV. Again, literally the same body and same strength profile, same athletic limitations and positives.
Pritchard has made a leap this year no doubt. He’ll still be hunted and be the weak link in our halfcourt defense but unlike last season I don’t think this will make him unplayable. Comparing him to FVV just isn’t fair though. That’s the old why can’t MarShon Brooks be like Kobe, why can’t Bol Bol be Wemby….to a lesser degree but FVV is a step ahead of PP pretty much everywhere. He’s real real good at basketball.
 

joe dokes

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From my memory Phil Jackson often got characterized as an average coach because Jordan and Pippen were so great. I never thought that was fair
I can't find it now, but the Boston Phoenix, of all papers, did a great feature on Jackson in the mid 80s when he was coaching (and occasionally driving the bus for) the Albany Patroons in the CBA. His approach was very different, and foreshadowed how he was able to get a buy-in (while also tolerating the friction) from great players.
 

lovegtm

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Pritchard has made a leap this year no doubt. He’ll still be hunted and be the weak link in our halfcourt defense but unlike last season I don’t think this will make him unplayable. Comparing him to FVV just isn’t fair though. That’s the old why can’t MarShon Brooks be like Kobe, why can’t Bol Bol be Wemby….to a lesser degree but FVV is a step ahead of PP pretty much everywhere. He’s real real good at basketball.
Yes, there's a reason FVV makes $40M+/year, and why PP is still trying to show that $7 will be justified. However, I think that defensively the gap isn't that huge.
 

joe dokes

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Pritchard is so improved from last season it's ridiculous. I'm not used to see someone get both stronger and quicker, but has gained significantly in both ways. At the beginning of the season he would dribble into the paint near the basket and then seemingly have no idea what to do next. Now he either gets off a good shot or a good pass. Whatever he's on, I want some.
I've always thought -- and said so -- that he appeared to be both really strong and quick (at least quick offensively). The bolded is where the benefits of strength and quickness is now paying off. It appears he now "has an idea what to do next."
 

tbrown_01923

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I've always thought -- and said so -- that he appeared to be both really strong and quick (at least quick offensively). The bolded is where the benefits of strength and quickness is now paying off. It appears he now "has an idea what to do next."
He still has the habbit of picking the ball up too often in the paint. I wish he would keep his dribble alive... maybe that is a reflection on his speed of decision making.
 

TripleOT

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He still has the habbit of picking the ball up too often in the paint. I wish he would keep his dribble alive... maybe that is a reflection on his speed of decision making.
PP does keep the dribble alive more often in the paint. He also nashes his way across the paint on the baseline now with his dribble, something he seldom did before. Some of the paint weapons he’s shown recently, like the fadeaway and the up and under, I don’t remember seeing before. PP is not reticent going into the paint against bigger defenders now. He either picks up his dribble or he can shoulder or out quick a defender for a layup, or keeps dribbling with his low base until he sees an opportunity. He does a solid job spraying the ball into the corner to Hauser or Horford

I don’t have much doubt that PP could be 17 and 8 guy as a starter somewhere. Comparing him to FVV is not saying he is as good as FVV, but if Fred came up on a stacked team like PP did, be probably would have had a similar career path.

It’s really an embarrassment of riches at the PG spot for the Celtics, with White, Jrue, and PP. Marcus who?
 

Koufax

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Thank goodness they have him under contract for a while. It's now a very team-friendly deal.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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People scoff at the FVV comp, but I've been making it for awhile too. They have nearly identical bodies and athleticism, and are both very strong, with strong bases. FVV can run an offense much better (Pritchard is catching up there), and PP is a better shooter and finisher near the rim (where FVV is really bad).

If people are so sure that PP will get hunted off the floor in the playoffs, they need to explain why that never happened to FVV. Again, literally the same body and same strength profile, same athletic limitations and positives.
FVV isn't a bad comp but it's been a super optimistic comp - it would mean that PP is both adding to his physical abilities at a late age (which, while not unheard of is also not that common) plus being on a type of team that can help cover for his weaknesses.

The good news? It may be happening (sorry if someone already posted the DARKO comparison upthread but I guess it's worth it to do it again).

79915
 

the moops

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However, I think that defensively the gap isn't that huge.
VanVleet is and pretty much always has been a decently good positive on the defensive end. Like one of the best point guards, at least according to Raptor and EPM. Pritchard still is a negative even if he has improved his strength and quickness
 

lovegtm

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FVV isn't a bad comp but it's been a super optimistic comp - it would mean that PP is both adding to his physical abilities at a late age (which, while not unheard of is also not that common) plus being on a type of team that can help cover for his weaknesses.

The good news? It may be happening (sorry if someone already posted the DARKO comparison upthread but I guess it's worth it to do it again).

View attachment 79915
Improvement, but PP is still no Trevor Ariza.
 

HomeRunBaker

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FVV isn't a bad comp but it's been a super optimistic comp - it would mean that PP is both adding to his physical abilities at a late age (which, while not unheard of is also not that common) plus being on a type of team that can help cover for his weaknesses.

The good news? It may be happening (sorry if someone already posted the DARKO comparison upthread but I guess it's worth it to do it again).

View attachment 79915
Does DARKO account for so many of PPs minutes being with 20+ pt leads playing against 2nd and 3rd units while FVV is going up against starting PG’s the majority of the time? These two are the definition of levels so number can easily be twisted (not saying intentionally which DARKO clearly doesn’t care one way or the other).