Pritchard Extended

lovegtm

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I don’t really understand this. The one thing that I think we all agreed on coming into this season was that Pritchard is a 40% shooter on reasonably high volume. Yet there was a real debate here whether he is a rotation player in the playoffs. The areas Pritchard is advancing his game on offense is creation and ball security. He’s creating a good amount more assists and has significantly reduced turnovers. Some folks here think he’s really taken a step forward defensively as well, something I’m personally less convinced of but more because I was on the high side of folks here on his defensive ability going into the season than because I’m seeing something different from others this year.
I think if you were already higher on PP as a defender, nothing has really changed. People who were low on him were, imo, underestimating the role of strength+quickness in NBA guard defense.

He went from underrated to properly rated on D. I don't see a reason he can't play 10-15 mins/game in the playoffs, or 20-25 if someone is hurt.
 

tims4wins

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We did agree he was a good shooter but to paraphrase money ball if he’s a good shooter why wasn’t he shooting good through the first 12 games. And of course the answer was SSS as he developed into his role and now he’s over 49% over his last 16.
 

JakeRae

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We did agree he was a good shooter but to paraphrase money ball if he’s a good shooter why wasn’t he shooting good through the first 12 games. And of course the answer was SSS as he developed into his role and now he’s over 49% over his last 16.
Sure, but he’s not a 50% shooter either. He’s a 40/41% shooter who will run hot or cold for stretches like any shooter does.
 

tims4wins

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Sure, but he’s not a 50% shooter either. He’s a 40/41% shooter who will run hot or cold for stretches like any shooter does.
Fully agreed. But PP maintaining his 40% range from 3 while leveling up handling the ball and playing D is a huge development.
 

JakeRae

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Fully agreed. But PP maintaining his 40% range from 3 while leveling up handling the ball and playing D is a huge development.
He’s definitely improving. I don’t think it’s as dramatic a change as many do, but agree with the conclusion that he is a quality bench option.

Here’s how DARKO sees our bench (ex-Horford) plus Grant Williams (who I like to include because as a comparison/anchor). This matches my eye test, which is that all of our 7-9 guys are quality players who are trending up.

75550
 

gammoseditor

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He’s definitely improving. I don’t think it’s as dramatic a change as many do, but agree with the conclusion that he is a quality bench option.

Here’s how DARKO sees our bench (ex-Horford) plus Grant Williams (who I like to include because as a comparison/anchor). This matches my eye test, which is that all of our 7-9 guys are quality players who are trending up.

View attachment 75550
IMHO, rating Kornet as the best of the four doesn’t match the eye test at all. I would guess that is a function of his minutes being protected and playing against lineups where he can have success.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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IMHO, rating Kornet as the best of the four doesn’t match the eye test at all. I would guess that is a function of his minutes being protected and playing against lineups where he can have success.
My sense is that this is the case with all of these advanced stats - they will reflect when players are very good situationally and aren't asked to do anything beyond that. Your read feels right but its more of a feature than a bug.
 

Manzivino

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IMHO, rating Kornet as the best of the four doesn’t match the eye test at all. I would guess that is a function of his minutes being protected and playing against lineups where he can have success.
DARKO is very much a context dependent stat, for example you can look at guys like Aaron Gordon and KCP and immediately see where they started playing with Jokic.

Edit: On phone, can’t get the chart to embed
 

tbrown_01923

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I’ve spoken recently how clueless Cam Whitmore is on the floor and that FVV earns his salary simply by positioning him on the floor many possessions, at times literally grabbing him to move him. At least he has a great view to admire Pritchard’s shot LOL!!
The last time they faced off FVV was moving folks all over the court, On this play, what do you see there on whitmores positioning? It looks to me that he somewhat challenges the catch, and (what I see) mistakenly squares to prevent dribble penetration - which isn't even an option - instead of remaining tigh on PP with his hands up.
 

HomeRunBaker

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The last time they faced off FVV was moving folks all over the court, On this play, what do you see there on whitmores positioning? It looks to me that he somewhat challenges the catch, and (what I see) mistakenly squares to prevent dribble penetration - which isn't even an option - instead of remaining tigh on PP with his hands up.
Positioning was fine. He had no recognition of shot clock and bites on PP’s jab that freezes him, as if PP putting the ball on the floor is a threat there, and he doesn’t close out at all or even raise his arms affect PP’s sight line. Great make by PP for sure but Whitmore allowed him to get off an uncontested look in that spot which is inexcusable.

Re: FVV. He’s my closest comp to my old binky Andre Miller. Ridiculously underrated basketball player (excluding contract) by the general public. He’s so freakin good.

Edit: Watched again, it wasn’t even a jab that froze him. He just froze and allowed PP space.
 
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tbrown_01923

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We are on the same page then - was wondering if you saw something else. He was okay on the catch, which wasn't an easy catch, but with 1.6 seconds on the clock, play the entire possession. The trent tucker rule applies to catch and shoot vs tip in, is there a rule that indicates the minimum time necessary for a dribble? Maybe there is time for an upfake / double clutch. But there is no way PP is making a move towards the hoop. I guess context and coaching (not that you are gameplanning around PP but maybe FVV (to your point) reminds the team, "catch and shoot")
 

InstaFace

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That was seriously among the very best games I've seen him play, nearly all of which have come this year. Say what you will about his defensive limitations, he has something of that Marcus Smart "go 100% all the time, never take a play off or give less than you've got". Best pound-for-pound offensive rebounder in the league.
 

billy ashley

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Of all the stories going into this season, it's wild that the bench being a weakness was one of them.

I think Prichard could start for a handful of teams. Like, the Spurs and and Wizards would be better with Prichard starting every night instead of the dreck they have at PG.

Crazy how good Prichard, Hauser, and Kornet have been filling out the7-9 spots, behind Al (who continues to amaze deep into his 30s)
 

Mugsy's Jock

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Pritchard has some Jaren Duran vibes. I'm not confident they're a starter for a good team, but regardless they're really really fun to watch. Even when they're not playing their best.
 

CreightonGubanich

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I think Pritchard's defensive limitations are real, but I also think he has some real off-the-bounce juice offensively that we don't see too often. He can create his own shot against most matchups, he's not just a Derek Fisher-like catch-and-shoot guy. He's usually playing with Tatum or Brown though, and he really tries to dial back the amount of time he spends with the ball in his hands. On a bad team, I think Prichard would be a decent scorer, but this team needs his floor spacing more than anything else.
 

bigq

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The way he pushes the pace is impressive. The transition from Smart as the PG consistently slow rolling the ball or walking it up the floor on a new possession last year to White running up the court is one thing. When fast PP gets the ball he is consistently in a near sprint creating havoc and forcing defenses to quickly react in to bad match ups. It's so much fun to watch.
 

Auger34

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FastPP is a guy that is just fun to watch and root for. He's always balls to the wall, never gets cheated.

Last night, he was awesome. I love that he got fired up by Podcast Pat and managed to drain a 3 or two right in that clown's face
 

Jed Zeppelin

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You can just tell the guy has been working his ass off in dribbling drills since he was old enough to bounce a ball.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Of all the stories going into this season, it's wild that the bench being a weakness was one of them.

I think Prichard could start for a handful of teams. Like, the Spurs and and Wizards would be better with Prichard starting every night instead of the dreck they have at PG.

Crazy how good Pritchard, Hauser, and Kornet have been filling out the7-9 spots, behind Al (who continues to amaze deep into his 30s)
The bench is helped a lot by being paired with one or more all-NBA-caliber players but POBOBS is following his Butler mantra - get a couple of guys (or more) who can play at any level and then find guys who know their roles and are really good at it.

As for PP, Tre Jones isn't playing poorly for SAS but given what PP does with Luke, I could only imagine how he would do with Wemby. That would kind of be appointment viewing.
 

NomarsFool

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The way he pushes the pace is impressive. The transition from Smart as the PG consistently slow rolling the ball or walking it up the floor on a new possession last year to White running up the court is one thing. When fast PP gets the ball he is consistently in a near sprint creating havoc and forcing defenses to quickly react in to bad match ups. It's so much fun to watch.
I love how he pushes, but then slows down if there isn't something there. I don't like it when guys push and then feel like because they pushed the pace they need to try and go coast to coast and reward themselves by taking a bad shot. Pritchard moves up the floor like a bat out of hell, which makes the defense get back, and if it's not there - will slow it down. Such a big change from the whole waste 12 seconds of the shot clock approach from Smart (and sometimes Tatum) from last season.
 

InstaFace

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It's been posted here before, but:
I thought about this specific video after the play where he cooked and ate Connaughton (?) on a step back 3 after getting the ball with like 5 on the clock, he did like 30 dribbles and 10 crossovers in 2 seconds. The poor defender probably looked like one of those cartoon characters after he gets hit in the head, like eyes becoming these spiral swirls, birds dancing around his head, etc.

Was PP doing all of that necessary? Maybe not. Was it awesome? Yes.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I love how he pushes, but then slows down if there isn't something there. I don't like it when guys push and then feel like because they pushed the pace they need to try and go coast to coast and reward themselves by taking a bad shot. Pritchard moves up the floor like a bat out of hell, which makes the defense get back, and if it's not there - will slow it down. Such a big change from the whole waste 12 seconds of the shot clock approach from Smart (and sometimes Tatum) from last season.
This. You get the best of both worlds with him. He pushes, but if there isn't a play to be made he will pull it back out and reset.
 

Bleedred

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I think PP's defensive limitations are now mostly related to his size (or lack of it). He is very aggressively into a ballhandler's space and he is clearly much stronger now and cannot be bullied by guys his size or even slightly bigger. If they have 3 or more inches on him and can get the ball in deep on him, then he's cooked, but he really does a great job now of being incredibly active with his feet to minimize the offensive player's ability to get deep or to take him off the dribble. Impressive improvement on the defensive end in the short time he's been a pro, and while he's still not a plus defender, IMO he's no longer a liability on defense.
 

ZMart100

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I thought about this specific video after the play where he cooked and ate Connaughton (?) on a step back 3 after getting the ball with like 5 on the clock, he did like 30 dribbles and 10 crossovers in 2 seconds. The poor defender probably looked like one of those cartoon characters after he gets hit in the head, like eyes becoming these spiral swirls, birds dancing around his head, etc.

Was PP doing all of that necessary? Maybe not. Was it awesome? Yes.
I think that was Gallinari.
 

Jimbodandy

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I thought about this specific video after the play where he cooked and ate Connaughton (?) on a step back 3 after getting the ball with like 5 on the clock, he did like 30 dribbles and 10 crossovers in 2 seconds. The poor defender probably looked like one of those cartoon characters after he gets hit in the head, like eyes becoming these spiral swirls, birds dancing around his head, etc.

Was PP doing all of that necessary? Maybe not. Was it awesome? Yes.
I think that the vast majority of the handle shenanigans that he used on that plan and on most plays are absolutely necessary. All the great smurfy players (he's not great yet but definitely smurfy) really need to get defenders leaning in order to get off jumpers and to get to the rim. Every inch matters.
 

Jimbodandy

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I think PP's defensive limitations are now mostly related to his size (or lack of it). He is very aggressively into a ballhandler's space and he is clearly much stronger now and cannot be bullied by guys his size or even slightly bigger. If they have 3 or more inches on him and can get the ball in deep on him, then he's cooked, but he really does a great job now of being incredibly active with his feet to minimize the offensive player's ability to get deep or to take him off the dribble. Impressive improvement on the defensive end in the short time he's been a pro, and while he's still not a plus defender, IMO he's no longer a liability on defense.
This is true. There's still ragdolling, but now he's the guy doing it. He deserves a lot of credit for his physical transformation. He could always dribble and shoot.
 

Ed Hillel

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Pritchard has basically become Rondo with a shot. Not as clever with the ball, but still gets it done. He/his contract are now a major asset.
 

lovegtm

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This. You get the best of both worlds with him. He pushes, but if there isn't a play to be made he will pull it back out and reset.
It's shocking how much he improved at this over the course of this season. It wasn't a summertime leap; he just figured it out as the year went along, in the minutes he got.
 

InstaFace

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Pritchard has basically become Rondo with a shot. Not as clever with the ball, but still gets it done. He/his contract are now a major asset.
Rondo had a lot more athleticism, I think he played a lot bigger than his 6'1 frame and was a better on-ball defender. He could finish at the rim better than Pritchard, too. But yeah, the outside shooting and the decision-making, there's a big edge to PP there.
 

Ed Hillel

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Rondo had a lot more athleticism, I think he played a lot bigger than his 6'1 frame and was a better on-ball defender. He could finish at the rim better than Pritchard, too. But yeah, the outside shooting and the decision-making, there's a big edge to PP there.
I’m not sure he did, tbh. And I hesitate to mention it, but, since the coach did, I feel comfortable saying the white factor might come into play here regarding his athleticism. He’s quick, strong, has good balance, and can high point rebounds with most anyone his size. Rondo was better at the rim, at least to this point, but Pritch is a much better shooter and I think views his role more as that than a drive to the hoop thing.
 

Strike4

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I don't think PP has necessarily improved, it's that the Celtics finally found a role for him to get comfortable in. He can flourish without having to prove anything.
 

Jimbodandy

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I don't think PP has necessarily improved, it's that the Celtics finally found a role for him to get comfortable in. He can flourish without having to prove anything.
There's a lot of that for sure. But he seems significantly stronger and has improved both his top-end speed and short-area footspeed.
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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There's a lot of that for sure. But he seems significantly stronger and has improved both his top-end speed and short-area footspeed.
Yeah, the way he can move even bigger guys with a shoulder now is impressive. He can get under the hoop, create breathing room, and get his shot up against guys with a significant height advantage.
 

Euclis20

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I think that the vast majority of the handle shenanigans that he used on that plan and on most plays are absolutely necessary. All the great smurfy players (he's not great yet but definitely smurfy) really need to get defenders leaning in order to get off jumpers and to get to the rim. Every inch matters.
Absolutely. Not only do the multiple dribble moves get the defender leaning (left/right/backwards) and can lull them to sleep, it also helps the shooter get into a rhythm, to a place in which they are comfortable shooting off the dribble. Even the bigger guys do that - Tatum can get his shot off over 99% of the league without much additional effort, but we've seen him dribble his way into it more often than not.
 

DavidTai

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I was thinking he'd picked up a few tips from Sam Cassell about how to play as a shorter point guard in the paint, though it's been years since I saw Sam play.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I’m not sure he did, tbh. And I hesitate to mention it, but, since the coach did, I feel comfortable saying the white factor might come into play here regarding his athleticism. He’s quick, strong, has good balance, and can high point rebounds with most anyone his size. Rondo was better at the rim, at least to this point, but Pritch is a much better shooter and I think views his role more as that than a drive to the hoop thing.
If PP had Rondo's 6'9" wingspan, he'd probably be an All-Star (assuming that he could still shoot as well as he does; that kind of arm length plus Rondo's huge hands I'm sure didn't make it easy on Rondo's shot).

Also, Rondo himself said he had a 42" vertical.

Rondo was a world-class athlete. PP is a world-class basketball player. What they both have in common, though, are really high BBall IQs.