Post Season Poll

Will the Sox make the post-season?

  • Yes

    Votes: 239 63.7%
  • No

    Votes: 134 35.7%
  • Other

    Votes: 2 0.5%

  • Total voters
    375

Rovin Romine

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What cho talkin' bout, Willis?

From the 2 games tonight (Sox/Os and NYY/TOR), there are 4 possible outcomes, right?
And that number doubles with each of the remaining 12 games.
It was meant mostly as a joke.

I'd agree with the first part: BOS has two outcomes tonight (W/L) and the NYY/TOR game also has two outcomes. That means 4 outcomes: With wins in capitals: BNt, bNt, BnT, bnT.
On Friday each of the 4 contending teams has two possible outcomes, for a total of 16 possible combinations. After that, some will be eliminated, but suppose we're still looking at two other groups of 16 possible combinations.
4x16x16x16 = 16,384 possible combinations.

However, if we're going to talk in terms of how those combinations sort into season outcomes (or results?), there are three teams that can change win record by 5 (adding 0 wins to 4 wins) and one team with a chance of adding 0-3 wins.
5x5x5x4= 500 possible final season outcomes on the last day, regardless if those individual Ws or Ls came in game 1 or 2 or 3 or 4.

If we're going to talk in terms of number of "practical outcomes on the last day". . .applying those possible final results at the end of the season, the various tie/breaker scenarios make it complicated. Including Houston.

Do we count those as post-season? Regular season?
 

E5 Yaz

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I know this is a sidetrack question, but .... can Robbie Ray secure the Cy Young tonight?
 

BaseballJones

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I know this is a sidetrack question, but .... can Robbie Ray secure the Cy Young tonight?
Since voters have gone away from wins as a prime consideration, there's very little reason to prefer Cole over Ray.

Cole: 181.1 ip, 3.23 era, 1.06 whip, 12.1 k/9
Ray: 188.0 ip, 2.68 era, 1.04 whip, 11.7 k/9

Cole has been outstanding. Ray has been better. Unless he has a disastrous outing today, I think he's already got the CYA won, even though Cole is certainly a worthy candidate.
 

Salem's Lot

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Think he's referring to Houston being a part of the 5-way tie (HOU, SEA, BOS, NYY, TOR). That would trigger a one-game playoff for the AL West and THEN a four way playoff for the two wildcards.
One game playoff games are only played when a team would be eliminated via a tiebreaker. Tiebreakers are used for seeding. I believe that in that case, Houston would win the AL West based on a 11-8 head to head vs Seattle, which would be decided via tiebreaker, and Seattle would be involved in a four way tie scenario for the wild card. Since both wildcard spots are in play in this scenario, two playoff games are necessary, since you can’t use head to head to decide it. I believe a coin flip would determine who plays who, and the winners are the wild card teams. That is my understanding of how it works, but I may have missed a detail somewhere. If the first wildcard spot is determined by tiebreaker, the Red Sox are in a good spot with winning records against the other three teams involved.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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One game playoff games are only played when a team would be eliminated via a tiebreaker. Tiebreakers are used for seeding. I believe that in that case, Houston would win the AL West based on a 11-8 head to head vs Seattle, which would be decided via tiebreaker, and Seattle would be involved in a four way tie scenario for the wild card. Since both wildcard spots are in play in this scenario, two playoff games are necessary, since you can’t use head to head to decide it. I believe a coin flip would determine who plays who, and the winners are the wild card teams. That is my understanding of how it works, but I may have missed a detail somewhere. If the first wildcard spot is determined by tiebreaker, the Red Sox are in a good spot with winning records against the other three teams involved.
That used to be the case (as it was in 2005 with the AL East/Wildcard). That is no longer true. Divisional ties are broken by a playoff game, even if both teams are qualified for the post-season. See the first paragraph here.
If one game is needed to break a tie for a playoff berth between two teams, it will be played on the Monday after the scheduled end to the regular season, hosted by the team that won the season series against the other. That applies to determining a division championship whether or not the losing team would still qualify as a Wild Card.
I believe this change was implemented with the second wildcard berth. They did not want a team forced into the wildcard game by a mathematical tiebreaker.
 

Rovin Romine

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One game playoff games are only played when a team would be eliminated via a tiebreaker. Tiebreakers are used for seeding. I believe that in that case, Houston would win the AL West based on a 11-8 head to head vs Seattle, which would be decided via tiebreaker, and Seattle would be involved in a four way tie scenario for the wild card. Since both wildcard spots are in play in this scenario, two playoff games are necessary, since you can’t use head to head to decide it. I believe a coin flip would determine who plays who, and the winners are the wild card teams. That is my understanding of how it works, but I may have missed a detail somewhere. If the first wildcard spot is determined by tiebreaker, the Red Sox are in a good spot with winning records against the other three teams involved.
https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-playoff-tiebreaker-rules

I read this as HOU and SEA, if tied, play to determine who is the division winner. Head to head record would determine the home-field advantage for that game.

Does the tiebreaker game count against the loser's record? If so, might it bump them out of the WC spot?
 

YTF

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There will be exactly 14 more regular season games featuring at least one of: BOS, NYY, TOR, SEA. Given this, there are exactly 16,384 possible combinations of results.

After tonight, there will be 12 more such games and 4,096 possible combinations of results, and after Friday night, there will be 8 such remaining games and still 256 possible combinations of results.

So, a lot can happen. :)
We're now in the end game.

44733
 

RobertS975

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Hey, how come nobody's talking about Magic Numbers this year? That was much more straightforward than the physics equations being posted!
 

nvalvo

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I just read that the 2021 AL East is likely to be the first division in the six division era to have four 90 game winners. Boston needs to win at least one more (one in Baltimore, three in DC) and Toronto at least two more (one against NY, three against BAL). Both are moderately likely outcomes.

Four 90 game winners is pretty wild when you consider that each team plays 57 games against each other. It basically requires all of those four teams to more or less equitably split their season series against each other — i.e. the Sox have gone 10-9 against NY, 10-9 against TOR, and 8-11 against TBR for a 28-29 record. Toronto has gone 9-10 against BOS, 8-11 against TBR, and 11-7 (with the last one today) against NY. That is 28-28 with one to play. The Rays are, as you'd expect, the best, with 11-8 against both Boston and Toronto and 9-7 (with three to play) against NY. That is 31-23. NY almost ruined it by playing pretty poorly against the East, especially Baltimore. They are 9-10 against Boston, 7-9 (so far) against Tampa, 7-11 (so far) against Toronto: so only 25-30 with four to play. But NY is already at 90 because they cleaned up against other opponents, including winning records against some good teams like Chicago, Houston, Atlanta and Seattle.

So doing a little algebra, if you, like Boston, go 28-29 in those 57 games (.491), then to reach 90 (.555 ball) you need to play .590 ball against other opponents: (90-28)/(162-57).

A big part of the difference in the division as it stands is the fact that Tampa went 18-1 against Baltimore, while the other AL East contenders allowed Baltimore to win 5 (Boston, with one to play), 5 (Toronto, with three to play), and 8 (NY). If you wanted to come up with a reason to doubt Tampa Bay in the playoffs, the fact that more than one in six of their wins have come against Baltimore would be that reason. The reason not to doubt them would be that they will end up around 100 wins in a division that will likely end up with four 90 game winners.
 

cantor44

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It was meant mostly as a joke.

I'd agree with the first part: BOS has two outcomes tonight (W/L) and the NYY/TOR game also has two outcomes. That means 4 outcomes: With wins in capitals: BNt, bNt, BnT, bnT.
On Friday each of the 4 contending teams has two possible outcomes, for a total of 16 possible combinations. After that, some will be eliminated, but suppose we're still looking at two other groups of 16 possible combinations.
4x16x16x16 = 16,384 possible combinations.

However, if we're going to talk in terms of how those combinations sort into season outcomes (or results?), there are three teams that can change win record by 5 (adding 0 wins to 4 wins) and one team with a chance of adding 0-3 wins.
5x5x5x4= 500 possible final season outcomes on the last day, regardless if those individual Ws or Ls came in game 1 or 2 or 3 or 4.

If we're going to talk in terms of number of "practical outcomes on the last day". . .applying those possible final results at the end of the season, the various tie/breaker scenarios make it complicated. Including Houston.

Do we count those as post-season? Regular season?
With the tie-breaker rules some crazy shit could happen. The best case scenario is the Red Sox finish alone in the top wildcard spot and NY, TOR, and SEA all tie for the second, forcing a two-game play-in to face the Red Sox at Fenway ...!!!
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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With the tie-breaker rules some crazy shit could happen. The best case scenario is the Red Sox finish alone in the top wildcard spot and NY, TOR, and SEA all tie for the second, forcing a two-game play-in to face the Red Sox at Fenway ...!!!
Make it happen!!!
 

AB in DC

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Not yet mentioned in this thread is that Tampa has clinched the #1 seed and home-field advantage in the AL meaning they can rest their regulars against Houston (tonight) and...the Yankees (next three days).
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Not yet mentioned in this thread is that Tampa has clinched the #1 seed and home-field advantage in the AL meaning they can rest their regulars against Houston (tonight) and...the Yankees (next three days).
With the 28-man rosters (as opposed to the 40-man of past years), how much resting can they really do? Add in the 3-day break before the ALDS, and the question is how much resting do they want to do?

That's not to say they're going to go all out to try to win these games, but they're not going to be running out lineups full of scrubs either.
 

cantor44

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Not yet mentioned in this thread is that Tampa has clinched the #1 seed and home-field advantage in the AL meaning they can rest their regulars against Houston (tonight) and...the Yankees (next three days).
Bad news from the Red Sox perspective - they won't care about winning those games against the Yankees.
 

CJM

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Not yet mentioned in this thread is that Tampa has clinched the #1 seed and home-field advantage in the AL meaning they can rest their regulars against Houston (tonight) and...the Yankees (next three days).
Merloni mentioned on the radio broadcast last night that, due to the 28-man roster and the Rays unique roster construction with heavy bench flexibility and use, this might not matter as much as it normally would. Here's hoping, at least, because I find I can't root for math more than the Yankees losing.
 

chawson

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Not yet mentioned in this thread is that Tampa has clinched the #1 seed and home-field advantage in the AL meaning they can rest their regulars against Houston (tonight) and...the Yankees (next three days).
The Rays could play the Yankees hard, at least until they lose one. I think they’d see a Sox/Mariners Wild Card game as a battle of their two weakest possible DS opponents. They’ll have McClanahan and Baz go at least a few in the first two games and Wacha starting #162. Not impossible they take all three.
 

Rovin Romine

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FRIDAY October 1 = 3 games to go.

1) Sox Lost. Featuring Cora's usual grade-school approach to the bullpen, in which he sniffs every jar in the fridge, proudly displaying the one that's slightly off. Meanwhile our uber-aggressive batters couldn't make outs quickly enough. But according to the genius, we "stuck with the gameplan." So there's that, whatever it means. The Sox can still lose their way into a tie, or out of the post season all together. We'll find out which one is the gameplan.

Best possible record is now 92 wins.
If they win 3 of 3 they no longer control their destiny.​
92 wins puts them in a potential tie breaker with NYY/SEA. But it is possible other teams will lose, leaving the 92 wins as a non-tied WC slot.​

Upcoming games are @WSN (E-Rod), @WSN, @WSN.


2) TOR Lost/ NYY won. TOR is a volatile team with an easy schedule for the last 3. It also features a bunch of unlikeable second-generation sons-of-players. This was the optimal outcome in terms of clearing away a team from the scrum.

TOR max win total is now 91.
3 of 3 does not guarantee a post-season berth if two of NYY/SEA/BOS make it to 92 wins.​

Upcoming games are: BAL, BAL, BAL.


3) NYY won/ TOR lost. This is the optimal outcome for the Sox, depressing one team from the scrum. NYY seems to occupy more mental space than physical space, but that was always true of that second-class rathole of a city which imagines itself the center of the universe anyway. One good thing about age - the Yankees of my childhood are fat or dead. I feel sorry for those who remain actively haunted by their trimmer ghosts.

NYY's best possible record stands at 94 wins.
3 of 3 controls their destiny with a WC 1 spot.​
2 of 3 controls their destiny with a WC 1 spot.​
1 of 3 means they may face a tie for a spot with either BOS or SEA.​
0 of 3 means they're (at worst) one behind BOS and SEA and out, alone in the WC2 spot, or tied with tied with one of the 91 possible-win teams (BOS, TOR and SEA).​

Upcoming games are: TBR, TBR, TBR. This is the hardest schedule by far.


4) SEA did not play. A team no one really thinks about has sidled up to the WC scrum in the wee hours of the pacific time zone.

Seattle's best possible record is 92 wins.
3 of 3 at worst puts them in that potential tie breaker territory with NYY/BOS.​

Upcoming games are: LAA, LAA, LAA.

5) OAK lost, eliminating themselves and removing a potential HOU/SEA tie to finish the season. Efficiency.
 
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pk1627

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Worst outcome is Sox eliminated in game 161. I’m guessing it goes to 162. Shades of 67
 

BaseballJones

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So if the Sox lose 2 of 3 - which they're more than capable of, but *shouldn't* - that would put them at 90 wins. We'd need Toronto to lose at least one game against Baltimore, which is possible but unlikely (though I guess technically it's always more likely that even a bad team will take one game in a 3-game series than no games), and we'd need Sea to lose two of three to LAA, which is possible but unlikely as well.

Winning 2 of 3 is therefore basically an absolute must, and winning all 3 is quite possibly necessary.
 

RobertS975

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So Sale would start Sunday game 162. If there is a tiebreaker playoff game on Monday, that's Eovoldi. Otherwise he starts the WC game on Tuesday should the Sox actually succeed over the next few days.
 

RobertS975

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FOUR-WAY TIE FOR TWO WILD CARD SPOTS
Example:
Yankees go 0-3; Red Sox go 2-1, Mariners go 2-1, Blue Jays go 3-0
What happens next: The above scenario is the only possible four-way tie, and it means all four teams finish with 91 wins (which is Toronto's win ceiling). Each team would choose or receive an A, B, C or D designation. The club with the highest winning percentage in games among the tied clubs chooses first, second-highest chooses second, etc. In this scenario, the Red Sox (24-21 against the others) get first choice, the Blue Jays (22-22) choose second, the Yankees (22-23) choose third and the Mariners (15-17) get the leftover spot.

On Monday, Club A (likely the Red Sox) would host Club B, and Club C (likely the Blue Jays) would host Club D. So for the Yankees, it would come down to a choice of traveling to either Boston or Toronto.
The winners of those two games on Monday would face each other Tuesday in the AL Wild Card Game.
 

RIrooter09

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My predictions:

Yankees take 2 out of 3 (93 wins)
Red Sox take 2 out of 3 (91 wins)
Mariners lose 2 out of 3 (90 wins)
Blue Jays take 2 out of 3 (90 wins)
 

nolasoxfan

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If the baseball gods want a pound of flesh, they are going to take it from Sale when he pitches on Sunday. It’s not the outcome I want, but it’s the one I’m expecting. “You watch and see,” as my late father used to say.
 

BaseballJones

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My prediction:

NY wins 2 of 3 (93 wins)
Bos wins 2 of 3 (91 wins)
Sea wins 2 of 3 (91 wins)
Tor wins 3 of 3 (91 wins)

Bos then has the choice about how to position themselves in the three-way tie situation. It's an interesting call, should it come to that. Here's how the Globe explains it:

- - -

Team A would host Team B. The loser of that game would be eliminated, with the winner advancing to host Team C for a win-to-get-in game.

Again, the Sox would get to pick their position, but in this case, they’d presumably want to be Team C. That designation would allow them a day of rest on Monday and require them to win just one game — even if on the road — against the winner of the Team A/Team B game to advance.

If the three-way tie were between the Sox, Mariners, and Blue Jays, the Mariners — who won their season series against the Blue Jays — would choose Team A status, leaving them with two potential home games. The Jays would then be left with Team B designation (cue Charlie Brown on Halloween: “I got a rock”), a status that would require a road win on Monday followed by travel to Toronto for a home game on Tuesday.

- - -

Choosing to be Team C means you only need to win one game to advance to the WC game. BUT...it would be on the road. On the flip side, being Team A means you have to win *two* games in order to advance to the WC game, but you get them both at home. Obviously being Team B is the worst because you have to win two games, but the first would be on the road.

I still think the best scenario is to be Team C. Put Eovaldi on the mound and hope that he pitches well no matter where it is: Seattle or Toronto. If Sale goes on Sunday to make it to the play-in tournament, and Eovaldi pitches the play-in game, then it leaves the Sox' pitching staff a bit in shambles to go against Cole in NY in the WC game, but you know what? That's why they play the games.

Here's Cole in his four outings vs. Boston this year:

6/27: 5.0 ip, 8 h, 6 r, 5 er, 2 bb, 6 k, Bos wins 9-2 behind EdRo's 6 innings of 2-run ball
7/17: 6.0 ip, h, 1 r, 1 er, 2 bb, 11 k, NY wins 3-1 even though Eovaldi pitched 5 innings of 1-run ball
7/23: 5.0 ip, 6 h, 3 r, 3 er, 2 bb, 8 k, Bos wins 6-2 as Valdez came in to pitch 3 innings of stellar ball
8/24: 6.0 ip, 5 h, 3 r, 3 er, 3 bb, 6 k, NY wins 8-3 as Eovaldi is shelled

So it's not like Cole isn't capable of dominating the Red Sox. Of course he is. But they've done a solid job against him three out of the four times they've faced him this year. So even though Eovaldi vs. Pivetta/Rodriguez/whomever seems like a mismatch, it's possible for the Sox to hang in there and make it a game.

But that's getting ahead of ourselves. Long way to go before that could happen.
 

Rovin Romine

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So if the Sox lose 2 of 3 - which they're more than capable of, but *shouldn't* - that would put them at 90 wins. We'd need Toronto to lose at least one game against Baltimore, which is possible but unlikely (though I guess technically it's always more likely that even a bad team will take one game in a 3-game series than no games), and we'd need Sea to lose two of three to LAA, which is possible but unlikely as well.

Winning 2 of 3 is therefore basically an absolute must, and winning all 3 is quite possibly necessary.
This is my reading of it as well.

I don't think there's anything to be gained by opponent watching and adjusting accordingly, unless everyone but BOS loses their next two games. Cora needs to plan to manage to win all 3, and reassess each day. Last night was puzzling. If he believed Otto and Barnes needed sharpening up appearances, it makes sense. If he believed they were ready to pitch and might be needed over the next 3 games, he should have committed to the punt with the back of the pen.

The best thing that can happen for the Sox right now? A few crooked-number innings during the initial game with Washington. That lets Cora rest/reserve whomever his prime bullpen guys are during game 1, giving him more options in game 2 and 3.
 

Max Power

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I don't know why that cheating idiot Cora keeps all his good bullpen pitchers out of the game. He just keeps sending out Ottavino, Barnes, Brasier, Robles, Richards, Perez, Hernandez, and Sawamura. Those stiffs can't get anyone out. He needs to use the good ones instead.
 

BaseballJones

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It does make a manager's job harder when all his bullpen options are iffy at best.

But one thing he can do to help is stop pulling *effective* starters when they're at 90 pitches or fewer, in the 5th or 6th inning. Even the other night, Eovaldi was dominating. He had thrown just 90 pitches and the Sox were cruising. Yet he pulled him after six. I suppose you could argue that his sixth inning was a bit of a struggle - it took 23 pitches to get out of the inning and he allowed a double and a walk - but still...I'm sure he could have gone one more inning and saved a few bullpen bullets.

You consistently pull starters early and it taxes the bullpen and now they're running on fumes. He can't do much about the quality of the bullpen but he certainly can do some things to help them.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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My predictions:

Yankees take 2 out of 3 (93 wins)
Red Sox take 2 out of 3 (91 wins)
Mariners lose 2 out of 3 (90 wins)
Blue Jays take 2 out of 3 (90 wins)
Angels are bowing out. Seattle will likely take 2/3 at worst. Sox... I can't predict anything more than 1/3 victories. Seattle is in. Sox are out. I hate to say it.
 

dynomite

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I don't know why that cheating idiot Cora keeps all his good bullpen pitchers out of the game. He just keeps sending out Ottavino, Barnes, Brasier, Robles, Richards, Perez, Hernandez, and Sawamura. Those stiffs can't get anyone out. He needs to use the good ones instead.
I laughed out loud. Exactly this. Koji isn't walking through that door. (Hopefully Whitlock is?)

Angels are bowing out. Seattle will likely take 2/3 at worst. Sox... I can't predict anything more than 1/3 victories. Seattle is in. Sox are out. I hate to say it.
The Angels have been terrible this month, but did take 1 of 3 against Seattle last weekend. One thing to watch is the Ohtani situation, who 1) just fired a public shot across the bow of the Angels front office by saying to the press about his future in Los Angeles that “I really like the team, I love the fans and the atmosphere as a team. But more than that, I want to win. That’s the biggest thing for me. I’ll leave it at that" and meanwhile 2) is going all out to take home the AL MVP -- they aren't letting him pitch this weekend, but he's 7 for his last 19 with 2 SBs and only 1 HR behind Vlad Guerrero Jr. (46 to 45), his primary competition. It's not unrealistic to think the Angels will be fired up for this series, both to help Ohtani win this award and to demonstrate they can beat a division rival in meaningful games.
 

NJ_Sox_Fan

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After the way they just played against Baltimore, I have zero faith that this team will win all 3 in Washington. They should easily be able to take 2/3, but then again, they should have easily been able to take 2/3 from Baltimore, so ...

I think Toronto smokes Baltimore in all 3, and I can also see Seattle taking 2/3 so I really think Sox need 2/3 just to get to the playoff game before the playoff game before the real playoffs
 

chawson

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Defacto committee most likely with the first innings going to Houck/Richards/Perez - whichever is the most rested. If E-Rod goes long tonight, Cora has more options.
I’d think Whitlock is in the game 161 mix too if he’s healthy. Lines him up decently for potential WC usage.
 

Rovin Romine

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I don't know why that cheating idiot Cora keeps all his good bullpen pitchers out of the game. He just keeps sending out Ottavino, Barnes, Brasier, Robles, Richards, Perez, Hernandez, and Sawamura. Those stiffs can't get anyone out. He needs to use the good ones instead.
I can't tell if you think these guys are actually bad pitchers.

Is that what you think?
 

Max Power

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I can't tell if you think these guys are actually bad pitchers.

Is that what you think?
Not so much bad as a giant pile of mediocrity. You'd be perfectly happy bringing any of them in as the first guy out of the pen if the starter goes 5, but a good team should have at least 3 better relievers than any of them.
 

dynomite

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Not so much bad as a giant pile of mediocrity. You'd be perfectly happy bringing any of them in as the first guy out of the pen if the starter goes 5, but a good team should have at least 3 better relievers than any of them.
see, I thought in part what you meant as well was that all of them have been disappointing over the past week. Barnes and Ottavino were outstanding for the first half of the season. Richards had an incredible run after being moved to the bullpen. But then the Yankee series over the weekend happened, when none of them came through, and the best of the bunch — Whitlock — has been on the IL.
 
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Max Power

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see, I thought in part what you meant as well was that all of them have been disappointing over the past week. Barnes and Ottavino were outstanding for the first half of the season. Richards had an incredible run after being moved to the bullpen. But then the Yankee series over the weekend happened, when none of them came through.
That's part of being a mediocre pitcher. They'll all have good stretches, but they mix in way more games where they completely shit the bed than a good pitcher does. Unfortunately, the entire pile of mediocrity failed spectacularly at the same time in the last week.
 

dynomite

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That's part of being a mediocre pitcher. They'll all have good stretches, but they mix in way more games where they completely shit the bed than a good pitcher does. Unfortunately, the entire pile of mediocrity failed spectacularly at the same time in the last week.
Got it. Basically I agree with your point: Cora had no good options out the pen during this collapse. There's not much you can do as a manager when every single bullpen arm is either hurt or bad.

I do think though that the real shame of it is that Barnes/Ottavino/Whitlock didn't look "mediocre" -- they were a relatively elite back of the bullpen through July. Barnes in particular is a curious case to me in terms of who is a "good" pitcher. I know around here there are many who all season had been doubting his emergence, but he rightly made the AL All Star Team, and his advanced stats remain pretty great (2.94 xFIP, 14 K/9, lowest BB rate since 2015). In fact, his stats this season aren't too far off from Aroldis Chapman:

Chapman: 55.1 IP, 3.42 ERA (3.11 xFIP), 21 ER, 95/37 K/BB, 4 blown saves
Barnes: 54 IP, 3.67 ERA (2.94 xFIP), 22 ER, 84/20 K/BB, 6 blown saves
 
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