Offseason Thread - Betty when you call me, you can call me Al

Big John

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Man, that's a real narrow path to follow. Just have your young plays develop into Steph, Klay and Draymond..
Yes, it's a narrow path, but it worked once and may work again. Not to beat a dead horse, but suppose Ainge had drafted Giannis in 2013. Where would the Celtics be now?

And the strategy of accumulating big name superstars for that title push is no guarantee. Just ask Billy King. The 2013-14 Nets had Pierce, Garnett, Joe Johnson, Deron Williams, AK-47. Shaun Livingston, Jason Terry and Jason Kidd as coach. How did that work out? The path of accumulating stars isn't as wide as people think, and it's very, very expensive when it fails. Darryl Morey is currently learning this the hard way.
 

djbayko

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An old, declining, injury prone Chris Paul scares the shit out of me. And I loved his game back in the day. Give me a recovering Howard.

Edit: Unless, I suppose, we get another fairly valuable asser back along with CP for getting them out from that contract and giving them a player who is less redundant with Harden.
 

mcpickl

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Yes, it's a narrow path, but it worked once and may work again. Not to beat a dead horse, but suppose Ainge had drafted Giannis in 2013. Where would the Celtics be now?

And the strategy of accumulating big name superstars for that title push is no guarantee. Just ask Billy King. The 2013-14 Nets had Pierce, Garnett, Joe Johnson, Deron Williams, AK-47. Shaun Livingston, Jason Terry and Jason Kidd as coach. How did that work out? The path of accumulating stars isn't as wide as people think, and it's very, very expensive when it fails. Darryl Morey is currently learning this the hard way.
They'd be really good.

But that horse is dead because asking your GM to draft perfectly is impossible. That's a much tougher task than accumulating stars if you can.

And I don't think Daryl Morey has any reason to be ashamed. He's had the second best team in the West in a time where an all-time team also plays in the conference. I wouldn't feel bad about that one bit.
 

benhogan

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Man, that's a real narrow path to follow. Just have your young plays develop into Steph, Klay and Draymond.

The Clippers have done a good job building a culture, and a fun underdog team.

If they land Kawhi they take a quantum leap forward. But I think that has little to do with what they've built and much more to do with that they play in Los Angeles and the other team there is currently a tire fire.

Sacramento has built themselves quite a nice young core, they have cap space to land a max player, but there's zero talk of them landing one. Because they're in Sacramento.

Unfortunately the city you play in is much more important than the team you've built.
SoCal lifestyle is definitely part of Jerry West's master plan.

Clippers were fun and plucky to start the season. BUT West went downright mid-evil when he dealt free agent to be Tobias Harris (who they clearly had no intention of signing at seasons end). While stealthily adding Landry Shamet (42.2% 3pt), two 1st rounders, two 2nd rounders and Muscala (who he turned into a young, serviceable Zubac).

The Clippers need to sign one of Kahwi or KD to contend. It's also important to note on who they didn't re-sign or moved (CP3, Blake Griffin, DeAndre Jordan, Harris) over 18 months to open up this Summer's cap space. All the while adding assets (Lou Will, Trez, Beverly, SGA, Shamet, draft picks) to support a superstar or two.
 

Big John

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And I don't think Daryl Morey has any reason to be ashamed. He's had the second best team in the West in a time where an all-time team also plays in the conference. I wouldn't feel bad about that one bit.
Better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all.
 

Devizier

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Rockets are like the nineties Knicks. Could have, might still win a title, but have a Jordan/Curry sized obstacle in their way.
 

JakeRae

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Yes, it's a narrow path, but it worked once and may work again. Not to beat a dead horse, but suppose Ainge had drafted Giannis in 2013. Where would the Celtics be now?

And the strategy of accumulating big name superstars for that title push is no guarantee. Just ask Billy King. The 2013-14 Nets had Pierce, Garnett, Joe Johnson, Deron Williams, AK-47. Shaun Livingston, Jason Terry and Jason Kidd as coach. How did that work out? The path of accumulating stars isn't as wide as people think, and it's very, very expensive when it fails. Darryl Morey is currently learning this the hard way.
The Warriors already had two stars in 2012-13, they just weren’t using them optimally yet. Steph and Klay were already amazing shooters. Kerr just showed up and started having them shoot dramatically more threes. Along with that, Draymond exploded into a legitimate top 10 level player (he hasn’t stayed at that level since the Durant trade).

The Clippers don’t have a team of guys with elite skills that are being underutilized. Landry Shamet might be a guy Philly was badly underutilizing and might have an elite shooting skill, but the Clippers certainly made full use of that skill set. SGA had a very good rookie year and could improve significantly but hasn’t shown any elite skills yet. And that’s about it for places its possible to see the Clippers organically developing. There’s not a lot of growth space for guys like Harrell, Williams, Beverly, and Gallinari.
 

DrewDawg

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Kyler is refuting is that the Celtics think that's the "only recourse", but the tweet does not say that. It says that Ainge "thinks" he can sign him. Kyler seems to be pushing back on something that's not quite as firm as he's assuming.
 

BigSoxFan

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I mean, of course Ainge isn’t putting all his eggs into one basket. He’ll have Plans A-Z mapped out well before the draft.
 

the moops

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Well, D'Antoni has certainly taken "sprawlball" (to steal Kirk Goldsberry's term) to its logical extreme, and D'Antoni started doing it before it was fashionable. Instead of 24 seconds to shoot, it's seven seconds to shoot.

I'd love to see some innovative coach try to win in the NBA with defense, but that's a train that will probably not come in my lifetime.
HOU has been in the bottom half in FGA per game for a few years now. They really don't run nor do they jack up shots early in the shot clock
 

DrewDawg

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I mean, I know this guy is more plugged in that I am, but I really doubt he knows what Ainge is focused on. And, that said, it's not like it takes 24/7 meetings to decide that they are offering Irving the contract and what they will offer for AD.


 
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lovegtm

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Kyler is refuting is that the Celtics think that's the "only recourse", but the tweet does not say that. It says that Ainge "thinks" he can sign him. Kyler seems to be pushing back on something that's not quite as firm as he's assuming.
If the Celtics do want AD, isn't it in their best interest to put out a lot of smokescreens about how everything is fucked and how they might blow it up? That's the only way that Griffin doesn't get to act like he has them over a barrel on draft night.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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If the Celtics do want AD, isn't it in their best interest to put out a lot of smokescreens about how everything is fucked and how they might blow it up? That's the only way that Griffin doesn't get to act like he has them over a barrel on draft night.
I think this is right. Griffin isn't just going to hand Davis over to Ainge and the Celtics know this. They also have zero incentive to tell anyone outside of the organization what they are trying to do so even a plugged in media member isn't likely to know what their actual plans are.

Finally, I think its also entirely possible that Kyrie hasn't yet given the Celtics any indication of what he is doing so they do need contingency plans. This may include a deal that nobody saw coming similar to the Irving trade itself.
 

sezwho

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I think this is right. Griffin isn't just going to hand Davis over to Ainge and the Celtics know this. They also have zero incentive to tell anyone outside of the organization what they are trying to do so even a plugged in media member isn't likely to know what their actual plans are.

Finally, I think its also entirely possible that Kyrie hasn't yet given the Celtics any indication of what he is doing so they do need contingency plans. This may include a deal that nobody saw coming similar to the Irving trade itself.
I don’t think this is right. Being opaque, sure, but Portraying your organization as in shambles to lower the ask for AD seems like it wouldn’t really have an impact and would more likely jeopardize resigning/recruiting. I actually put some credence in the rumors Lakers are already off the trade list and in any case think everyone playing the hand pretty much knows where they stand on his value.

Definitely agree that it’s possible Kyrie's decision is in the wind and they have countless contingency plans based on how the chips fall...it’s still all in his hands
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I don’t think this is right. Being opaque, sure, but Portraying your organization as in shambles to lower the ask for AD seems like it wouldn’t really have an impact and would more likely jeopardize resigning/recruiting. I actually put some credence in the rumors Lakers are already off the trade list and in any case think everyone playing the hand pretty much knows where they stand on his value.

Definitely agree that it’s possible Kyrie's decision is in the wind and they have countless contingency plans based on how the chips fall...it’s still all in his hands
Forgive me if I missed this but how are they portraying their organization as if it were in shambles? I only read the Tweet thread that suggests that the Celtics are behaving as if Irving is not returning. The latter isn't suggestive that Boston's front-office or roster is falling apart or anything.

His statement to the contrary before the season, Irving was always a flight risk until they signed him. As others have stated, its not the least bit shocking that Boston has other plans in the event that they cannot retain Irving. Its not even surprising if they think the odds favor him departing and are proceeding on that basis.

My only point is that behaving as if they aren't desperate to land Davis can only help them. At the end of the day, Ainge/Zarren have a walk-away and only they know what that is. However, acting if they need to consummate this trade does them absolutely no good.
 

NomarsFool

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In an ideal world, you'd also simultaneously prepare for multiple scenarios. If the asking price for AD is right, you take that path. If the asking price for AD is too high, you take another path.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Forgive me if I missed this but how are they portraying their organization as if it were in shambles? I only read the Tweet thread that suggests that the Celtics are behaving as if Irving is not returning. The latter isn't suggestive that Boston's front-office or roster is falling apart or anything.

His statement to the contrary before the season, Irving was always a flight risk until they signed him. As others have stated, its not the least bit shocking that Boston has other plans in the event that they cannot retain Irving. Its not even surprising if they think the odds favor him departing and are proceeding on that basis.

My only point is that behaving as if they aren't desperate to land Davis can only help them. At the end of the day, Ainge/Zarren have a walk-away and only they know what that is. However, acting if they need to consummate this trade does them absolutely no good.
Maybe they are sending them links to The Port Cellar threads?
 

Big John

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So if Kyrie leaves, will Horford also leave? And if he leaves to chase a ring, where does he go? I don't see too many plausible alternatives for Al other than the two LA teams unless he is willing to play for the MLE.
 

DrewDawg

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Ainge will be meeting with media Wednesday. That's obviously a standard thing, but it's his first appearance since his heart attack.
 

nighthob

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Shams with a long, Daviscentric article over in The Athletic today, the end notes had some items of interest, though...

Atlanta Hawks

The Hawks could be a destination for contract dumps once again, sources said. Atlanta also has interest in potentially re-signing free agent center Dewayne Dedmon to a balloon one-year deal, according to sources — or a shorter-term contract like the two-year, $14 million deal he signed in 2017.

Boston Celtics

Celtics free agent Marcus Morris will have strong interest as a second-tier free agent, with teams such as the Knicks, Kings, Lakers, Clippers and Bulls expected to be in pursuit, league sources said. Morris, 29, had arguably his best all-around season, averaging 13.9 points, 6.1 rebounds and 1.5 assists per game and serving as a versatile scorer and defender either as a starter or reserve. League sources say Morris remains open-minded about returning to Boston, which wants to bring Morris back but has several summer priorities such as Kyrie Irving.

Brooklyn Nets

A market is forming for Nets All-Star and restricted free agent DeAngelo Russell: Utah, Orlando, Minnesota and Indiana are among the teams expected to show an interest aside from Brooklyn, sources said.

Charlotte Hornets

The Hornets and Kemba Walker both have each other as top priorities entering July 1, league sources said. Walker confirmed to Jared Weiss of The Athletic that the Hornets remain his “first priority” during his tour of Tokyo as an NBA ambassador there during the NBA Finals. Walker made the All-NBA third team this year after another spectacular season, allowing him to sign a five-year, $221 million super maximum contract. There is doubt around the NBA that the Hornets will reach that high amount, but owner Michael Jordan’s loyalty has always been with Walker.

Cleveland Cavaliers

A team that has expressed an interest in a salary-designed trade of J.R. Smith: the Miami Heat, sources said. The Heat also have contracts they could look to move in the offseason in a deal such as this, and would have to absorb Smith’s deal.

Oklahoma City Thunder

The Thunder have had multiple conversations with various teams about using their No. 21 pick in a trade to reduce team salary and relieve financial pressure, league sources said.

Phoenix Suns

Expect restricted free agent Kelly Oubre Jr. to emerge as a priority for the Suns entering July 1. Oubre averaged 20.2 points per game in 12 starts for the Suns during their best stretch of the season to close 2018-19. If Oubre enters the market, he’s a prime option for teams with cap space that strike out on their first-tier targets.

Sacramento Kings

The Kings have been prioritizing a center in the free-agent marketplace, league sources said.
ATL/OKC Iis there really anyone willing to put up with two years and $31 million worth of Denis the Menace for #21 in a roleplayer draft? Do the Hawks take him back for the chance to add another player?

BOS Their MaMo interest looks like a hedge against a roster clearing deal. If they lose Smart they’re going to need Morris as a bench defender.

CLE/MIA The Heat willingly trading for J.R.? Is this a Ryan Anderson swap? And who gives up the draft pick in that scenario?

BRK That’s a lot of options for the Nets, and make a Davis deal a possibility for them since they have potential trade partners to help funnel young prospects to New Orleans if the Pels don’t want DAR. But adding a package of Russell, LaVert, Kurucs, picks might be appealing to Griffin.

CHO Oof. I mean at 5/221 you win the bidding. And you get to keep your best player. But oof.

PHO Oubre looks to be the early winner of the Mark Blount award (depending on large that contract is). Also seems to signal that they’re going G in the lottery.

SAC Prioritizing a C in free agency? Sometime you just gotta say, “the Kings gonna King”.
 
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benhogan

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BOS Their MaMo interest looks like a hedge against a roster clearing deal. If they lose Smart they’re going to need Morris as a bench defender.
.
The Celtics are in huge trouble next season if Marcus Morris is needed as a "bench defender" in lieu of Smart. Was that a Shams quote from the article?
Scoring off the bench, yes MaMo can do that in spades. BUT he is a gawd awful defender under the rim or on the perimeter. In fact, two years running he was the worst defensive player in the Celtics rotation. As MaMo ages, w/his knee issues, it's only going to get worse on the defensive end.
 

nighthob

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The remarks were mine. About the only scenario in which a Davis trade makes any sense is an extend & trade incorporating Davis' trade kicker. But that requires either Smart being part of the deal or Hayward being traded into Indiana's cap space for a pick to work (and the latter would be my preference). And if they decide to hang on to Hayward then Smart would need to be part of the package.
 

cheech13

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The remarks were mine. About the only scenario in which a Davis trade makes any sense is an extend & trade incorporating Davis' trade kicker. But that requires either Smart being part of the deal or Hayward being traded into Indiana's cap space for a pick to work (and the latter would be my preference). And if they decide to hang on to Hayward then Smart would need to be part of the package.
Which pick do you think Boston would have to give to get another team to eat that contract? Usually a first round pick is enough for guys with one year left, but he has two. That's one or two less picks you'd have available to send to New Orleans in a potential deal. It doesn't seem realistic to dump him at the nadir of his value.
 

nighthob

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I suppose if you believe that Hayward has a giant fork sticking out of his back and his career is over due to a broken ankle. I doubt many people would agree with you on that, though. The alternative of bundling Tatum, Smart and more along with the Memphis pick to get more than a one year rental of Davis seems an awfully steep price to pay, though.
 

cheech13

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I suppose if you believe that Hayward has a giant fork sticking out of his back and his career is over due to a broken ankle. I doubt many people would agree with you on that, though. The alternative of bundling Tatum, Smart and more along with the Memphis pick to get more than a one year rental of Davis seems an awfully steep price to pay, though.
I don't think he's done, but I also don't see any team willingly taking on that contract without getting a pick(s) back and Boston would be foolish to trade him under that scenario. The point is he has little to no value today and so attempting to move him to create cap space would only complicate matters and increase Boston's acquisition cost for Davis.
 

nighthob

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I think Indiana would likely trade for the hometown hero to be the running mate for Oladipo. It's the reason I listed them as the most likely destination. And if the options are the list of assets necessary for a Davis extend & trade or Hayward, Tatum, and the Memphis pick, the latter is preferable 10 times out of ten.
 

the moops

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The remarks were mine. About the only scenario in which a Davis trade makes any sense is an extend & trade incorporating Davis' trade kicker. But that requires either Smart being part of the deal or Hayward being traded into Indiana's cap space for a pick to work (and the latter would be my preference). And if they decide to hang on to Hayward then Smart would need to be part of the package.
Don't think this works. To renegotiate and extend, BOS would have to be under the cap by 33 million. Excellent article here https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2019/06/03/could-the-team-that-trades-for-anthony-davis-immediately-lock-him-up-long-term/#7b8ebeb34757
 

radsoxfan

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I suppose if you believe that Hayward has a giant fork sticking out of his back and his career is over due to a broken ankle. I doubt many people would agree with you on that, though. The alternative of bundling Tatum, Smart and more along with the Memphis pick to get more than a one year rental of Davis seems an awfully steep price to pay, though.
“Broken ankle” minimizes things quite a bit..... he dislocated his ankle, broke his ankle (likely within the joint), tore a bunch of ligaments, and almost surely has some degree of posttraumatic arthritis along with microinstability related to ligament scarring. He may in fact not return to his peak, sad as that may be. We’re over a year and a half from his injury now.

Even the diminished version of himself last year had value and I think he probably still has some upside left, but no team medical staff is going to sign off without a close review of his medicals/imaging. It’s not just a typical broken ankle situation unfortunately.
 

benhogan

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The remarks were mine. About the only scenario in which a Davis trade makes any sense is an extend & trade incorporating Davis' trade kicker. But that requires either Smart being part of the deal or Hayward being traded into Indiana's cap space for a pick to work (and the latter would be my preference). And if they decide to hang on to Hayward then Smart would need to be part of the package.
I'm surprised you didn't get your head bit off by some of the parental controls around here. The mere mention of dealing Gordon Hayward a few months ago drew some hyperventilating about the Celtics never being able to sign a Free Agent ever again.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Which pick do you think Boston would have to give to get another team to eat that contract? Usually a first round pick is enough for guys with one year left, but he has two. That's one or two less picks you'd have available to send to New Orleans in a potential deal. It doesn't seem realistic to dump him at the nadir of his value.
I mean this is Gordon Hayward here......not Chandler Parsons. You are still going to get solid production out of him the next couple of seasons.
 

lexrageorge

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I'm surprised you didn't get your head bit off by some of the parental controls around here. The mere mention of dealing Gordon Hayward a few months ago drew some hyperventilating about the Celtics never being able to sign a Free Agent ever again.
Context matters. The earlier "trade Hayward" takes were solely to get his contract off the books without any suitable return. Trading him as part of a Davis deal, especially where Hayward ends up on a good team in his home town, is a very different discussion.
 

cheech13

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Woj bomb incoming:


Brooklyn is trading Allen Crabbe and No. 17 pick in 2019 NBA Draft and protected first in 2020 to Atlanta for Taurean Prince and 2021 second-round pick, league sources tell ESPN.


Kyrie Irving is serious about the Nets -- and the Nets are serious about beating the Knicks -- and rest of league -- to the biggest free agents in the marketplace, per league sources.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Woj bomb incoming:


Brooklyn is trading Allen Crabbe and No. 17 pick in 2019 NBA Draft and protected first in 2020 to Atlanta for Taurean Prince and 2021 second-round pick, league sources tell ESPN.


Kyrie Irving is serious about the Nets -- and the Nets are serious about beating the Knicks -- and rest of league -- to the biggest free agents in the marketplace, per league sources.
If the Nets renounce D’Angelo Russell then you know they have an agreement with Kyrie locked up as it would open two max slots. They could retain Russell and still have one max slot. The next Nets action will give us a ton of info.
 

RedOctober3829

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If the Nets renounce D’Angelo Russell then you know they have an agreement with Kyrie locked up as it would open two max slots. They could retain Russell and still have one max slot. The next Nets action will give us a ton of info.
Yup. I don't think D-lo and Kyrie could co-exist. I would have to think if Kyrie is going there, D-lo is out and another max guy will come in.
 

nighthob

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If the Nets renounce D’Angelo Russell then you know they have an agreement with Kyrie locked up as it would open two max slots. They could retain Russell and still have one max slot. The next Nets action will give us a ton of info.
Or they can use Russell as the linchpin of a Davis deal. Throw in LaVert, Kurucs, and a couple of picks and you have a real offer.
 

moondog80

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Or they can use Russell as the linchpin of a Davis deal. Throw in LaVert, Kurucs, and a couple of picks and you have a real offer.
They just traded their next two first rounders, I doubt the privilege of signing Russell to a max deal will be enough to get Davis.
 

nighthob

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I mean I know we hate him because of how badly he played his first two years, but he’s been a lot better since getting away from the LA Dumpster Fires. He’s not even a defensive liability anymore (NOTE: “not a defensive liability” ≠ “good defender” or even “average defender”.)
 

nighthob

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I mean beyond which they can probably replace the firsts in a Russell sign & trade.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Adding Prince, KI and KD for Russell and 2 middling first rounders would be a helluva talent infusion for the Nets.
It’s even more dangerous than that. If they roll with KD and Kyrie they will have two mid-lottery picks (8 & 10) to move for veterans to help them win now rather than drafting a couple teenagers.
 

benhogan

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It’s even more dangerous than that. If they roll with KD and Kyrie they will have two mid-lottery picks (8 & 10) to move for veterans to help them win now rather than drafting a couple teenagers.
???

Atlanta owns those picks and KD/Ky are going to Brooklyn
 
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