Offseason Thread - Betty when you call me, you can call me Al

Lazy vs Crazy

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Yup, I’d definitely be tacking on more guaranteed money if I were he.

The other part of the conversation is probably: “can you guarantee you won’t trade me this year if I opt-in/extend?” He’s just too useful as salary balast otherwise.
If he opts out and re-signs with another 1+1 he can't be traded unless he consents. That's because of some weird CBA stuff where a player with Bird rights on a one-year deal has a no-trade built in. If he opts in, I believe he can be traded, as the opt-in would essentially make his current deal count as a two-year contract.
 

benhogan

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I will say there is 0% change that Baynes opts-in to his current deal and a 100% chance that he is a Celtic next year on a new and restructured deal similar to the one he signed this year. Aside from this making a ton of sense for him he pretty much tells us this in the language he used about "chatting with Brad and Danny"...…..if he was simply going to opt-in there would be no need for a conversation. I can't imagine the Cetlics not wanting him back at a reasonable price for his role.
Whatever deal he signs, I'm 100% sure it will be team friendly. That's how the dude rolls. productive, team-player, underrated...
 
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cheech13

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Could be a super interesting offseason in Houston. After the somewhat bizarre move of Morey firing all of D'Antoni's assistants we now get this from Woj.


Sources: In calls to front offices, Houston GM Daryl Morey is showing an aggressive desire to improve roster with all players and picks available in talks. Hard to imagine James Harden scenario, but the rest under contract - perhaps even Chris Paul - could be moved in right deal.

My guess is that Capela could fetch something, as could Gordon. Paul's got the awful contract, but one of the teams with cap space that strikes out in free agency might talk themselves into taking him (Phoenix? LA?). Other than that, not sure how they rebuild that team unless they decide to move on from Harden, which they shouldn't (and won't) do.
 
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DrewDawg

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Be tough to see what Capela could bring back that would improve them...

Should Ainge call?
 

cheech13

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The CP3 deal was a disaster for the rockets. Jerry West strikes again.
They were one game from the NBA Finals in 2018. Hard to call it a disaster given how close they were to the title. Maybe Williams/Beverly/Harrell would have made them deeper and more dynamic this season, but that's still not enough to beat the Warriors. Teams should take big gambles like that more often.
 

Big John

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They were one game from the NBA Finals in 2018. Hard to call it a disaster given how close they were to the title. Maybe Williams/Beverly/Harrell would have made them deeper and more dynamic this season, but that's still not enough to beat the Warriors. Teams should take big gambles like that more often.
Sure they gambled-- and lost heavily. Paul is scheduled to make $38.5M, $41.3M and $44,2M through June of 2022. He's 34 years old and missed 24 games in each of the last two seasons due to various injuries. Last year it was a hamstring.

And now the Rockets are going into complete rebuild mode.
 

HomeRunBaker

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The CP3 deal was a disaster for the rockets. Jerry West strikes again.
Meh. To quote long lost Rocco, "They played a hand!" I can't criticize an owner/GM/organization for making a move that is necessary to bring home a Championship...….if they don't miss 18 three's in a row (or whatever the number was) there is a good chance it does the job.


Sure they gambled-- and lost heavily. Paul is scheduled to make $38.5M, $41.3M and $44,2M through June of 2022. He's 34 years old and missed 24 games in each of the last two seasons due to various injuries. Last year it was a hamstring.

And now the Rockets are going into complete rebuild mode.
What's the difference between acquiring assets now as opposed to being mediocre for two years? The end result would have likely been similar in that they would be retooling this summer.
 

Big John

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Would you view the 2018-19 Clippers as "retooling?" Compare their prognosis going forward with that of the Rockets. Jerry West had a similar team with three big stars that wasn't good enough, but he knew what to do. He's building the Clippers the same way he build Golden State, via the draft and by fleecing impatient GMs.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Would you view the 2018-19 Clippers as "retooling?" Compare their prognosis going forward with that of the Rockets. Jerry West had a similar team with three big stars that wasn't good enough, but he knew what to do. He's building the Clippers the same way he build Golden State, via the draft and by fleecing impatient GMs.
The Clippers have done a good job with building depth that, on its own, gives them a shot to secure a six to eight seed in the WCF playoffs - and likely a first round out. However, if they are unable to get Kawhi or another elite player, all they are doing is giving their fans something fun during the regular season.

This is my main point about the Celtics if Kyrie walks and they miss out on Davis. Barring a huge leap by one of their youngsters, they are likely a lower seed and an easy out in the playoffs. I know some people are hoping for this outcome but I don't get the joy in rooting for the little team that could after having lofty aspirations. It was fun when they were climbing out of their "rebuild" but I think it would be a bitter pill for some of us.

The goal should be to compete for a championship. Without an elite player, the Clippers are probably further away from that than even a Kyrie/Davis-less Boston team.
 

Tony C

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Obviously, but I think the point is the Clippers in short order have built the perfect structure for a stud free agent to join. The supporting cast is there, the money is there, the coach is there, there's no rival star (LeBron) who will steal the spotlight and the credit, and it's in L.A. (albeit not with the glamor franchise).

They still have to close the deal on that free agent/s - I think all can agree on that. They have money for 2 max free agents and if they can get 2 guys to come as a package they'll be really good. Frankly even just one stud signing with the base they have and they become very interesting.
 

benhogan

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Obviously, but I think the point is the Clippers in short order have built the perfect structure for a stud free agent to join. The supporting cast is there, the money is there, the coach is there, there's no rival star (LeBron) who will steal the spotlight and the credit, and it's in L.A. (albeit not with the glamor franchise).

They still have to close the deal on that free agent/s - I think all can agree on that. They have money for 2 max free agents and if they can get 2 guys to come as a package they'll be really good. Frankly even just one stud signing with the base they have and they become very interesting.
Thank you, well put.

I'll add an owner that is self-made, committed and an avid fan. Ballmer didn't hesitate in shelling out $5MM for Jerry West after a 2nd round exit in 2017. I think we also all can agree, intelligent ownership is important to sustained long term winning.

If they strike out on Kawhi or Kyrie/KD, they can go back to FA in 2020, while still developing a nucleus of young players and future draft assets ('20 76ers, '21 Heat). They are now set up to compete for a Championship for many years.
 

the moops

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Unless they sign one or two top FAs they aren't set up to compete for a championship though. Those future draft assets are nice and all, but as we just saw with the BRK and SAC pick there is a decent chance that they do not become top 3 picks.

All that to say, yes, LAC are in a good spot. But until Kawhu/AD/superstar X show up, they are not. a championship contender by any stretch
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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The Clippers are in no way set up to win a championship for many years. They might if a bunch of things break right but the same can be said of many franchises.
 

benhogan

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I'll defer to the experts. Vegas has the Clippers as the 6th best odds to win the 2020 championship.

As Tony C said, sign 1 stud and they are in the mix. Sign 2 of KD, Kyrie Kawhi, the Clippers will be prohibitive favorites.

First-round draft picks can be used at the trade deadline or offseason to add immediate talent where needed.
 
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Big John

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The Clippers have done a good job with building depth that, on its own, gives them a shot to secure a six to eight seed in the WCF playoffs - and likely a first round out. However, if they are unable to get Kawhi or another elite player, all they are doing is giving their fans something fun during the regular season..
Maybe, maybe not. Let's roll the film back to July, 2013. The Warriors had just finished a 47-35 season. Curry and Thompson were emerging stars, but the rest of the roster was a hodgepodge, and Draymond green was barely in the rotation, averaging under 3 ppg in 13 mpg. Their second leading scorer was David Lee, and guys like Carl Landry and Jarrett Jack played major minutes. They were the definition of an ok but not great team.

Then they pulled off the trade with Denver for Iguodala. In 2013-14 they won 51 games but were bounced in the first round. However, Green's minutes doubled. Then 2014-15. They added Livingston and Barbosa, demoted David Lee to the second unit and hired Kerr. Green was now a starter. They won 67 games and their first championship

What magical superstar did Golden State add to put them over the top? The fact is they grew their own superstars, none of whom was picked higher than 7th overall.

The Clippers are on the same path, except they also have the cap space to make adding Kawhi possible.
 

DrewDawg

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Steve Kyler(yea I know) says he’s heard the Celtics as one of the handful of teams the Rockets have been engaged in talks with.
For who?

Capela doesn't make a lot, and is only 25, but it's tough to find a match--Smart works in the trade machine (and bumps us like 7 wins in their estimation).

Gordon? Same thing--we're not trading Smart for him.

Paul? Ha. Are we trading Hayward for him?
 

RedOctober3829

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For who?

Capela doesn't make a lot, and is only 25, but it's tough to find a match--Smart works in the trade machine (and bumps us like 7 wins in their estimation).

Gordon? Same thing--we're not trading Smart for him.

Paul? Ha. Are we trading Hayward for him?
If Kyrie is staying, I actually would think about trading Smart for Gordon and then drafting Thybulle to replace Smart. Celtics need more outside shooting and Houston could use a defensive presence like Smart to help move past GS.
 

NoXInNixon

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If Kyrie leaves, and if Houston would actually consider trading Harden, all the assets that were supposed to bring AD would suddenly be better spent getting the biggest offensive force in the game.

A backcourt of Harden and Smart? Sign me up for that if possible.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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This is my main point about the Celtics if Kyrie walks and they miss out on Davis. Barring a huge leap by one of their youngsters, they are likely a lower seed and an easy out in the playoffs. I know some people are hoping for this outcome but I don't get the joy in rooting for the little team that could after having lofty aspirations. It was fun when they were climbing out of their "rebuild" but I think it would be a bitter pill for some of us.
With respect to the bolded, I just want to point out that what people are hoping is precisely what you are trying to carve out with the "Barring a . . ." preface to your sentence.

I'm on record in saying that I hope Kyrie stays and they figure out roles but if Kyrie leaves and DA can't get AD, DA - and the rest of us - will absolutely be hoping that either or both of JB and JT become All-Stars. In a lot of ways, for sports fans, that's the best possible outcome since my feeling is that all other things being equal, we all have a bias that we'd rather watch kids grow up than import a mercenary.

I don't know what the odds of one - or even both - happening but it's nice to have a back-up plan instead of being a team that is absolutely screwed if their best player leaves them.
 

bowiac

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I'll defer to the experts. Vegas has the Clippers as the 6th best odds to win the 2020 championship.

As Tony C said, sign 1 stud and they are in the mix. Sign 2 of KD, Kyrie Kawhi, prohibitive favorites.
What now?
 

nighthob

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For who?

Capela doesn't make a lot, and is only 25, but it's tough to find a match--Smart works in the trade machine (and bumps us like 7 wins in their estimation).

Gordon? Same thing--we're not trading Smart for him.

Paul? Ha. Are we trading Hayward for him?
If New York or LA struck out in free agency, and decided that they wanted to add Paul, and Houston actually preferred the Hayward gamble over lottery tickets, then it might be a viable option for Boston to create a TPE and take on the lottery tickets as part of a post-Kyrie “accumulate assets and wait your chance” move.

At the very least having that TPE reduces the acquisition cost of a star player as you no longer need to match salaries.
 

bakahump

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Have no Idea about their relationship but EGordon played with AD in NO.
Maybe Ainge looks at this as another potential selling point to AD.

Ky,AD, EGordon and GH seems like a pretty good starting point.

If Al takes the discount and you can backfill a few bench roles. Lookout.

Oh and BTW Gordons 3 of his top 4 3pt% years were with AD (.391/.448!/.384)
 
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nighthob

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Paul's $30M plus is for one more year than Hayward's and he's already 34.
It’s two more years as there’s zero chance that he’s opting out. Which is why I specifically said I wouldn’t want him in Boston.

If New York were desperate enough to eat the deal, they wouldn't offer the Rockets anything beyond salary relief (like say DSJ or Ntilikina), and Houston doesn't really have the assets to make effective use of a TPE.

But Boston does, so a deal where CP3 went to Madison Square Garden, Hayward to Houston, and then Ntilikina or a draft pick to Boston probably works for all three teams. The Rockets immediately plug the biggest hole on their roster (the lack of wings after Harden and the 6'3" Gordon), the Knicks immediately recapture the back page of the Post, and Boston either gets the last year of Frankie Smokes as a gamble or a draft pick (they'd obviously prefer the latter) and a huge TPE to acquire talent in the post-Kyrie era.
 

nighthob

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I wouldn't be too sure of this. I could be convinced that a shooter like Gordon is a pretty big need for this team. And I think it is more difficult to replicate what Gordon does than what Smart does
Houston doesn't want more roleplayers, and they certainly aren't looking for a swap of roleplayers. With CP3 fading they're trying to find a star to put alongside Harden. Preferably a forward.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Paul? Ha. Are we trading Hayward for him?
Assuming Kyrie and Rozier walk this right here makes a ton of sense for both teams roster balance and will be our best chance to acquire an above avg starting PG for the next couple of seasons. Combine this with an AD deal and we are a legit Top-5 contender.

Paul's $30M plus is for one more year than Hayward's and he's already 34.
Paul's deal will be for the next 3 seasons essentially replacing Hayward's slot for the next two......and he's also still really good while filling a major need (assuming again both PG's bolt for FA).

I can definitely be sold on this swap.
 
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nighthob

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A bigger issue facing Boston with Kyrexit is the possible/probable HorGone in its wake. At that point I think a more likely approach would be a Horford sign & trade to Houston for Capela (although some tinkering would need to be done at the margins to make it work for all involved), and then looking at possible Hayward trades if you're back to the drawing board.
 

BigSoxFan

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Assuming Kyrie and Rozier walk this right here makes a ton of sense for both teams roster balance and will be our best chance to acquire an above avg starting PG for the next couple of seasons. Combine this with an AD deal and we are a legit Top-5 contender.


Paul's deal will be for the next 3 seasons essentially replacing Hayward's slot for the next two......and he's also still really good while filling a major need (assuming again both PG's bolt for FA).

I can definitely be sold on this swap.
And we do know that Ainge once considered trading prime Pierce for CP3 back in like 2005 so he must really like the guy. Obviously, he’s at the end of his career so possible CP3 lust has subsided.

I could be sold on it as well.
 

lovegtm

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I see the logic, and there’s a LOT of uncertainty either way, but I’d rather bet on Gordon Hayward continuing to recover than on Chris Paul un-toastifying. He didn’t look my himself as the playoffs went on.

Edit: thinking more about it, the Paul contract is so bad that Morey might attach assets to it to extend Harden’s window, in which case the deal gets more interesting.
 

Big John

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What I don't understand is why the Rockets aren't extending D'Antoni (talks have reportedly broken off and D'Antoni has only one year remaining). He's the perfect coach to craft an entertaining team post blow-up.
 

cheech13

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What I don't understand is why the Rockets aren't extending D'Antoni (talks have reportedly broken off and D'Antoni has only one year remaining). He's the perfect coach to craft an entertaining team post blow-up.
Rumblings are that Daryl Morey wanted to fire him but that he was overruled by the owner. He then went on to fire all his assistants, presumably to force D'Antoni to quit. They reportedly reached out to Ty Lue to become the top assistant (and first in line if/when Mike got fired).

Now I don't know why they are doing all this considering he's done a good coaching job there, but there you go.
 

BigSoxFan

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Rumblings are that Daryl Morey wanted to fire him but that he was overruled by the owner. He then went on to fire all his assistants, presumably to force D'Antoni to quit. They reportedly reached out to Ty Lue to become the top assistant (and first in line if/when Mike got fired).

Now I don't know why they are doing all this considering he's done a good coaching job there, but there you go.
Yup. Very strange. We all know D'Antoni's warts but he's a good coach and has done extraordinarily well there in Houston. If CP3 doesn't hurt himself last year, they probably have a ring. Now you're entering next year with a lame duck coach who will be fielding questions about his future. That is basically inviting drama.
 

Big John

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Well, D'Antoni has certainly taken "sprawlball" (to steal Kirk Goldsberry's term) to its logical extreme, and D'Antoni started doing it before it was fashionable. Instead of 24 seconds to shoot, it's seven seconds to shoot.

I'd love to see some innovative coach try to win in the NBA with defense, but that's a train that will probably not come in my lifetime.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I see the logic, and there’s a LOT of uncertainty either way, but I’d rather bet on Gordon Hayward continuing to recover than on Chris Paul un-toastifying. He didn’t look my himself as the playoffs went on.

Edit: thinking more about it, the Paul contract is so bad that Morey might attach assets to it to extend Harden’s window, in which case the deal gets more interesting.
Yes Ainge was always a huge Paul guy and his BBIQ is as high as any player I’ve ever seen (I think it was Doc who also said similar). I don’t see the same uncertainties and Paul nearly singlehandedly carried the Rockets to a G7. Sharing the backcourt with Harden didn’t do his numbers any favors either......he’s still going to be really good these next couple of years. The real uncertainty is what happens without a Paul trade if/after Kyrie and Terry leave.
 

BigSoxFan

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Yes Ainge was always a huge Paul guy and his BBIQ is as high as any player I’ve ever seen (I think it was Doc who also said similar). I don’t see the same uncertainties and Paul nearly singlehandedly carried the Rockets to a G7. Sharing the backcourt with Harden didn’t do his numbers any favors either......he’s still going to be really good these next couple of years. The real uncertainty is what happens without a Paul trade if/after Kyrie and Terry leave.
Any idea about AD’s relationship with CP3? A lot of players seem to hate him.
 

Big John

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Well, Mike Conley-- also on the block--is roughly 10M a year cheaper and three years younger. He's not as good as a healthy CP3, but he's ok--not flashy but smart, like Lennie Wilkins. Rubio isn't bad either, and maybe sending Hayward back to Utah for Rubio and another player (Ingles? Crowder?) would be a decent move if you could convince the Jazz that Hayward's recovery was on an upward trajectory.

If Hayward can't be moved, there's always Patrick Beverley. His salary would double if he signs a deal for the MLE. Can you imagine Beverley and Smart in the same backcourt? That would be worth the price of admission.
 

HomeRunBaker

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You saw it for years with Tom Thibodeau.
We saw it witn the Bucks this year and the Warriors like every year. The insinuation that nobody plays defense in this league should have been thrown out like 30 years ago......I mean nearly every shot is aggressively contested now along with the advanced schemes. Doug Moe’s teams would give up 220/g today.....and I may only be slightly exaggerating.
 
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nighthob

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We saw it witn the Bucks this year and the Warriors like every year. The insinuation that nobody plays defense in this league should have been thrown out like 30 years ago......I mean nearly every shot is aggressively contested aside from the advanced schemes. Doug Moe’s teams would give up 220/g today.....and I may only be slightly exaggerating.
My favorite Doug Moe quote, ever, was his response to the charge that his teams were the worst defensive teams in the NBA. To wit, "We're not the worst defensive team in the NBA, our opponents are."
 

Big John

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You saw it for years with Tom Thibodeau.
Well, it worked when he was a Celtics assistant and it might have worked in Chicago if Rose hadn't gone down. They were 62-20 in 2010-11 and 50-16 the next year, when they lost in the first round after Rose tore his ACL in game 1.
 
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mcpickl

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Maybe, maybe not. Let's roll the film back to July, 2013. The Warriors had just finished a 47-35 season. Curry and Thompson were emerging stars, but the rest of the roster was a hodgepodge, and Draymond green was barely in the rotation, averaging under 3 ppg in 13 mpg. Their second leading scorer was David Lee, and guys like Carl Landry and Jarrett Jack played major minutes. They were the definition of an ok but not great team.

Then they pulled off the trade with Denver for Iguodala. In 2013-14 they won 51 games but were bounced in the first round. However, Green's minutes doubled. Then 2014-15. They added Livingston and Barbosa, demoted David Lee to the second unit and hired Kerr. Green was now a starter. They won 67 games and their first championship

What magical superstar did Golden State add to put them over the top? The fact is they grew their own superstars, none of whom was picked higher than 7th overall.

The Clippers are on the same path, except they also have the cap space to make adding Kawhi possible.
Man, that's a real narrow path to follow. Just have your young plays develop into Steph, Klay and Draymond.

The Clippers have done a good job building a culture, and a fun underdog team.

If they land Kawhi they take a quantum leap forward. But I think that has little to do with what they've built and much more to do with that they play in Los Angeles and the other team there is currently a tire fire.

Sacramento has built themselves quite a nice young core, they have cap space to land a max player, but there's zero talk of them landing one. Because they're in Sacramento.

Unfortunately the city you play in is much more important than the team you've built.