[LOCKED] 2019 AB Watch: Non-legal Views Only

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lostjumper

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I’m not a lawyer, but I do have a unique perspective on this that I’m guessing 98% of you don’t. So I’m going to weigh in here.
The thing about all this that doesn’t sit with me is that she went the civil route, and not criminal.

The statute of limitations isn’t up. What is to be gained by going this way and not criminal? I get the burden of proof is lower, but the publicity/awareness of the case isn’t going to be hurt, and will likely be given more credibility.

When I was sexually assaulted I never once thought “I can make money from this” it was “how do I make sure this fucker never does this again.” That it appears she never even went to the police about this and went right to a high profile lawyer instead...man, I don’t know.
Thanks for your perspective on this TSC, and I'm sorry that you ever had to go through something like this. Your post mirrors my thoughts exactly. In fact, I think it strengthens a civil suit if it first starts as criminal, there isn't enough evidence to pursue, and then it goes to civil where there is a lower bar to reach. The fact that this went right to a civil suit sure has the appearance of someone looking to make money off of this as their primary focus, not justice.
 

dcmissle

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Where is Rosenhaus? Is a 35 year old sports lawyer in charge? Not criminal ? It seems stupid not to have settled this long ago; AB will probably spend a million in legal fees alone. Maybe he's not taking advice, but
the "fake ass hoe" defense clearly needs polishing. I think he needs to study Kobe, who wrote the book on this--hire a prominent female attorney, and write a big check.
It is entirely possible, maybe likely, that Rosenhaus found out with the rest of us. People compartmentalize their lives and keep important matters from lawyers, doctors, clergy and agents all the time.

This guy issued the statement.


He’s fine enough for a bench role in fencing with the League or Pats. He’s not someone I’d rely on to try a federal district court civil suit, or to settle one.

BTW — if AB is in the facility and planning to practice, it supports door B. Lay it off on Goodell.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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I moved a couple of new posts to the AB legal views thread.

I know it's tough to separate legal and non-legal related posts but streams will continue to cross if we let this go.

You don't have to be a lawyer. If it has ANYTHING to do with the merits, timing, etc. of the case, post them here:

 

Ralphwiggum

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There’s no such thing as a maybe rapist. They either did it, or they didn’t. Just like any other crime. Accusations happen everyday in the workplace. It’s about finding facts that back up the claims. If AB is proven to be guilty, he should be punished. Otherwise, he’s free to play football.
That's fine in terms of the standard of proof to put someone in jail. We are not talking about that. And sure he's free to play football, again, nobody is talking about putting him in jail or kicking him out of the league, the question is whether you want him playing for your favorite team. Unless we get a clear picture that this whole thing was totally consensual and he's being extorted, I'd rather not root for the guy on Sundays. In many of these situations we'll never know the truth, I'm comfortable giving women the benefit of the doubt when we are talking about these kinds of decisions. Criminal proceedings are another matter.
 

HomeBrew1901

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The issue with that is that the NFL investigation could take a year--it did with Zeke. Since he's only under a 1 year contract, I would think they'd just cut him. That they didn't makes me think that he's playing. Same as Chung (yes I know that's much different from rape).
Yeah... Chung had a little bit of coke on a coffee table and has kept his mouth shut. Plus to be cold hearted, the Patriots need Chung at his position more than they need Brown. I'm not sure Brown can keep his mouth shut and just play football until this matter is settled.
 

lexrageorge

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Bill seems to follow the league’s lead with off the field issues and let them handle themselves. I highly doubt Brown will be cut right now by the Patriots. Bill is more concerned with what they do on the team.
The Patriots do not have the resources or expertise to investigate claims such as this. While the league's ability to investigate such claims and make rational decisions can certainly be questioned, it is still better equipped than the team to do the same.

I have no love for AB and I'm not a Patriot's Conspiracy theorist that believes "The League Is Against US" but... I have to question the timing of this lawsuit and that she went the lawsuit root. Unless of course, she tried to go the criminal route first and the proof wasn't there for the DA to take the case and this was her last form of recourse.

Take the 9M hit and put him on the exempt list.
Whether to place the player on the exempt list is a league decision, not the team's. And that approach has its own drawbacks, as that is normally done only for criminal complaints, not civil litigation. The NFLPA would object to placing AB on the exempt list until the trial concludes, and would have a solid case, IMO.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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Tyrone, please stick with football-related issues here. I ask you to refrain from bringing politics in it.

Edit: the V&N is a much more appropriate place to discuss how politics impact (alleged) sex assault cases.
I respect that. My apologies regarding that.
 

dcmissle

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Yeah... Chung had a little bit of coke on a coffee table and has kept his mouth shut. Plus to be cold hearted, the Patriots need Chung at his position more than they need Brown. I'm not sure Brown can keep his mouth shut and just play football until this matter is settled.
To be really cold about it, the Kraft matter also remains pending with the NFL. Bawb doesn’t need to be bookended with AB, discipline wise or PR wise.

I can easily see a cut based on lack of candor in negotiating the deal.
 

bosockboy

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To be really cold about it, the Kraft matter also remains pending with the NFL. Bawb doesn’t need to be bookended with AB, discipline wise or PR wise.

I can easily see a cut based on lack of candor in negotiating the deal.
Yes if they want Kraft’s issues to stay buried he’s cut today.
 

JokersWildJIMED

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The Patriots do not have the resources or expertise to investigate claims such as this. While the league's ability to investigate such claims and make rational decisions can certainly be questioned, it is still better equipped than the team to do the same.


Whether to place the player on the exempt list is a league decision, not the team's. And that approach has its own drawbacks, as that is normally done only for criminal complaints, not civil litigation. The NFLPA would object to placing AB on the exempt list until the trial concludes, and would have a solid case, IMO.
Civil lawsuits can take years...putting AB on the exempt list for a civil lawsuit sets quite a precedent as it could severely limit his earning abilities. That said, I would not be surprised if Roger sets new ground, since it's the Pats.
 

21st Century Sox

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Obviously AB and his agent knew that this was out there, maybe they didn't have any idea it would be filed today, but they knew about it. If they really didn't give the Patriots any kind of heads up, doesn't that destroy the relationship right there?
I think Rosenhaus easily could have been in the dark here.
 

TFisNEXT

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Civil lawsuits can take years...putting AB on the exempt list for a civil lawsuit sets quite a precedent as it could severely limit his earning abilities. That said, I would not be surprised if Roger sets new ground, since it's the Pats.
Given the embarrassing history of the league to adequately handle these cases (see Zeke vs Tyreek Hill as an example), setting a new ground on the civil suit front would be pretty terrifying.
 

cornwalls@6

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I wouldn’t necessarily take his being in the building today as a sign regarding his long term future with the team. I’m sure they’re still in the early stages of information gathering/looking at all their options. There’s really no reason to not have him there while they do.
 

TheoShmeo

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I’m not sure how much this matters but per Reiss on ESPN’s Get Up show, the Pats are selling AB’s jersey on line and in the pro shop.

If the Pats were on the fence about suspending or cutting Brown, I’d like to think they would hold off.
 

HomeBrew1901

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If you want to take the word of a guy named Incarcerated Bob, who supposedly is the one that leaked all of this, he was just on Toucher and Rich and said it was the Raiders that gave him this info. AB has been paying this woman for a few years now and if Incarcerated Bob had not leaked this info there would be no public lawsuit right now.

All I can say is consider the source but who knows.
 
Apr 24, 2019
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This is pretty much exactly where I'm at. This needs to be settled one way or another asap. As a fan I have zero emotional attachment to Brown as well so really don't care which way this cuts but he needs some lock solid evidence to prove this was consensual and an extortion attempt beyond she continued to hire him.

As for DT I think he was gone regardless of AB. They will need to add OL depth and getting a 6th for a guy you had previously cut isn't bad value given they had to give one up for a player they had cut.
Agree with ALL of this. Thank you for posting.

As for the DT piece, I can’t shout this loudly enough from the mountaintops. I’m reading a lot of “we got screwed out of DT, now what are we gonna do?” I had been hoping we could trade DT - for anything - since before the AB nonsense. He’s fine, had a great game against, mainly, the car wash all-stars, and I wish him the best, except for two times this season, but he’s absolutely unnecessary for this 53.
 

bsj

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I’m not sure how much this matters but per Reiss on ESPN’s Get Up show, the Pats are selling AB’s jersey on line and in the pro shop.

If the Pats were on the fence about suspending or cutting Brown, I’d like to think they would hold off.
Not remotely the most pressing question, but curious how the number situation plays out. I have a feeling AB is paying Ben a decent chunk of change given this sentence

This item is being made available on a pre-order basis. Jerseys will begin shipping once the players uniform number is approved by the NFL, and we receive the product from Nike.
NFL wouldnt have to approve a regular number. What they have to approve is a number being changed after the start of the regular season, something they probably will so since BW is not on the active roster anyway
 

CoffeeNerdness

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Jakobi Meyers' singular catch on Sunday was more impressive than anything I've seen in years from DT who's drop prone, injury prone, and old.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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If you want to take the word of a guy named Incarcerated Bob, who supposedly is the one that leaked all of this, he was just on Toucher and Rich and said it was the Raiders that gave him this info. AB has been paying this woman for a few years now and if Incarcerated Bob had not leaked this info there would be no public lawsuit right now.

All I can say is consider the source but who knows.
If the text trail is genuine and if there is a person who has a recording suggesting extortion it certainly helps explain the timing. If your client is about to get accused of a crime, try to get out in front of it with as strong a narrative as possible. If she was extorting him she has to worry about a lot of things and trying to get prosecutors to view it solely as a civil matter is a strategy.

These are huge ifs though. I tend to side with the non conspiracy version of events and the whole incarcerated bob thing seems shady.
 

Harry Hooper

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Not remotely the most pressing question, but curious how the number situation plays out. I have a feeling AB is paying Ben a decent chunk of change given this sentence



NFL wouldnt have to approve a regular number. What they have to approve is a number being changed after the start of the regular season, something they probably will so since BW is not on the active roster anyway
It possible Watson or Brown could wear 48, assuming Munson would give it up.
 

mauf

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Maybe take a step back from the keyboard today, DC. Black players more likely to make bad associations, black women more likely to extort? Give me a break. We don't need to go with Fox News narratives here to get a point across.
I don’t agree with everything @dcmissle has posted in this thread, but you need to read people’s posts carefully before you smear them like this, because the words he wrote simply don’t square with your characterization of them.

DC was saying that, for whatever reason, rich black men seem to be the victims of shakedowns and are judged by their associations more often than similarly situated white men. If he wanted to put it more pointedly, he could’ve said that the extreme “believe all women” angle being pushed by @Tyrone Biggums and others is therefore implicitly racist (in effect, if not in intent). I haven’t done the homework to say whether DC’s point withstands empirical analysis, but it deserves better consideration than your post gave it.
 
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Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Looking more closely at these emails from the complaint, I don't think he is actually admitting the sexual behavior. Obviously parsing meaning is pretty difficult, since its barely written in English. But in context I think the first couple sentences in the first email are him repeating her allegations (which she assumedly made in a prior email to him) in an astonished way (thus the exclamation points and the "fuck your knowledge") and then in the second email he's saying he would laugh with his friend about her claim that he "bussed on her back," not that he would laugh about having done it (this follows him mockingly advising her that the next time she wants to extort someone she should pick somebody she had actually slept with).

None of this is to say this didn't happen or that we should believe him over her. But I'm not convinced that these emails are actually admissions of sexual activity.

View: https://twitter.com/nick_underhill/status/1171587842910429186
 

Rice14

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This is a tough one. On the one hand, I don't think a player should be put on the exempt list based off one civil suit accusation. On the other hand, if AB plays this weekend, the optics could be terrible for the league and the team. The Patriots might not care as much, they don't seem to let that noise bother them. For the league though, I'm picturing AB romping into the end zone, celebrating his TD, and then every media organization running a story about a player accused of rape, celebrating in the end zone five days later as though nothing happened.
 

bsj

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Rosenhaus on Sportscenter at Noon

Just as an aside...i am very confused about what qualifies as discussion around his legal situation and what thread it goes in.
 

Mystic Merlin

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Looking more closely at these emails from the complaint, I don't think he is actually admitting the sexual behavior. Obviously parsing meaning is pretty difficult, since its barely written in English. But in context I think the first couple sentences in the first email are him repeating her allegations (which she assumedly made in a prior email to him) in an astonished way (thus the exclamation points and the "fuck your knowledge") and then in the second email he's saying he would laugh with his friend about her claim that he "bussed on her back," not that he would laugh about having done it (this follows him mockingly advising her that the next time she wants to extort someone she should pick somebody she had actually slept with).

None of this is to say this didn't happen or that we should believe him over her. But I'm not convinced that these emails are actually admissions of sexual activity.

View: https://twitter.com/nick_underhill/status/1171587842910429186
The fucking assault on the English language that is those emails isn’t making this easier, to be sure.
 

cornwalls@6

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Sounds like the league is heading towards the exempt this. Putting aside what a bad precedent that sets, if they do, is it then in the Pats best interest to just release him? Seems like they will effectively lose the 9Million either way, particularly if the legal fight lingers on for months, and might there be some value in at least opening the roster spot back up?
 

SeoulSoxFan

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Rosenhaus on Sportscenter at Noon

Just as an aside...i am very confused about what qualifies as discussion around his legal situation and what thread it goes in.
I know. I had to think twice about splitting this into 2. There will certainly be some overlaps. However, without separate threads, we'll be stepping all over each other.

So, if your main point is NOT about various legal aspects of the case, place it here (i.e., signing bonus, optics from the public/fans, strategic impact, your moral take, etc.)
 

bsj

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I know. I had to think twice about splitting this into 2. There will certainly be some overlaps. However, without separate threads, we'll be stepping all over each other.

So, if your main point is NOT about various legal aspects of the case, place it here (i.e., signing bonus, optics from the public/fans, strategic impact, your moral take, etc.)
Ok. So tangential and consequential implications of the case are fine to stay here, just the mechanics of the trial and the specifics of the case go there....
 

Super Nomario

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Sounds like the league is heading towards the exempt this. Putting aside what a bad precedent that sets, if they do, is it then in the Pats best interest to just release him? Seems like they will effectively lose the 9Million either way, particularly if the legal fight lingers on for months, and might there be some value in at least opening the roster spot back up?
Pats clearly can get back the guaranteed money if Brown is suspended, per Breer's Tweet. Less clear if they can get it back if he goes on the Exempt List, though they can certainly argue under the highlighted ("takes any action that materially undermines the public's respect for, or is materially critical of, the Club, the Player's teammates or the Club's ownership, coaches," etc., guarantees will "null and void."):

View: https://twitter.com/AlbertBreer/status/1171780783717191680


(sorry mobile folks, it's a photo tweet)
 

SeoulSoxFan

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Ok. So tangential and consequential implications of the case are fine to stay here, just the mechanics of the trial and the specifics of the case go there....
Yeah, much better said than I. Just wanted the legal input from the experienced members to have a (somewhat of a) focused thread for us to follow.
 

lexrageorge

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Sounds like the league is heading towards the exempt this. Putting aside what a bad precedent that sets, if they do, is it then in the Pats best interest to just release him? Seems like they will effectively lose the 9Million either way, particularly if the legal fight lingers on for months, and might there be some value in at least opening the roster spot back up?
Brown would not be occupying a roster spot if he is on the exempt list.

Reading the article, it appears that if such action were to occur, it's unlikely to happen until next week. Not surprising, given the issues with putting a player on the exempt list based solely on a civil complaint and the precedent it could set. Roger would absolutely have to get cooperation from the NFLPA first.

There is nothing to prevent the NFL from doing their own investigation even if he's not on the exempt list.

Regarding the Breer tweet, the implication is that if there is enough evidence for a suspension, that could be enough to claw back the bonus. But I doubt just a placement on the exempt list alone would be sufficient. After all, what happens if Brown is placed on the exempt list, and two weeks later it comes out that the league concluded there is no merit to the accusations against Brown?
 

cornwalls@6

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Pats clearly can get back the guaranteed money if Brown is suspended, per Breer's Tweet. Less clear if they can get it back if he goes on the Exempt List, though they can certainly argue under the highlighted ("takes any action that materially undermines the public's respect for, or is materially critical of, the Club, the Player's teammates or the Club's ownership, coaches," etc., guarantees will "null and void."):

View: https://twitter.com/AlbertBreer/status/1171780783717191680


(sorry mobile folks, it's a photo tweet)
Thanks, had not seen that. Seems like there is some possibility for relief, and not as cut and dried as the language in the standard players contract would suggest.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Pats clearly can get back the guaranteed money if Brown is suspended, per Breer's Tweet. Less clear if they can get it back if he goes on the Exempt List, though they can certainly argue under the highlighted ("takes any action that materially undermines the public's respect for, or is materially critical of, the Club, the Player's teammates or the Club's ownership, coaches," etc., guarantees will "null and void."):

View: https://twitter.com/AlbertBreer/status/1171780783717191680


(sorry mobile folks, it's a photo tweet)
I wonder whether that "take any action" clause applies retroactively. It seems largely written to refer to actions and conduct that occur between the signing of the contract and the end of the 2019 league year. But the actions in question here took place in 2017 and 2018.
 

BigSoxFan

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Brown would not be occupying a roster spot if he is on the exempt list.

Reading the article, it appears that if such action were to occur, it's unlikely to happen until next week. Not surprising, given the issues with putting a player on the exempt list based solely on a civil complaint and the precedent it could set. Roger would absolutely have to get cooperation from the NFLPA first.

There is nothing to prevent the NFL from doing their own investigation even if he's not on the exempt list.

Regarding the Breer tweet, the implication is that if there is enough evidence for a suspension, that could be enough to claw back the bonus. But I doubt just a placement on the exempt list alone would be sufficient. After all, what happens if Brown is placed on the exempt list, and two weeks later it comes out that the league concluded there is no merit to the accusations against Brown?
Does the NFLPA have any incentive to cooperate with Goodell on this?
 

djbayko

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Looking more closely at these emails from the complaint, I don't think he is actually admitting the sexual behavior. Obviously parsing meaning is pretty difficult, since its barely written in English. But in context I think the first couple sentences in the first email are him repeating her allegations (which she assumedly made in a prior email to him) in an astonished way (thus the exclamation points and the "fuck your knowledge") and then in the second email he's saying he would laugh with his friend about her claim that he "bussed on her back," not that he would laugh about having done it (this follows him mockingly advising her that the next time she wants to extort someone she should pick somebody she had actually slept with).

None of this is to say this didn't happen or that we should believe him over her. But I'm not convinced that these emails are actually admissions of sexual activity.

View: https://twitter.com/nick_underhill/status/1171587842910429186
You know what? You’re absolutely right. And I had originally read it the other way too. I think part of me was assuming the worst as I read it. The incredibly bad grammar probably didn’t help my assessment. Obviously that doesn’t mean he didn’t do the things she said - only that, at the very least he’s not dumb enough to admit it over text.

Edit: Quoted extra posts by mistake
 

DrewDawg

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Sounds like the league is heading towards the exempt this. Putting aside what a bad precedent that sets, if they do, is it then in the Pats best interest to just release him? Seems like they will effectively lose the 9Million either way, particularly if the legal fight lingers on for months, and might there be some value in at least opening the roster spot back up?
Eh, there's not much there. Of course the NFL will consider it. But I would assume the NFLPA would object. If they didn't put Zeke on it, why would AB be placed on it?
 

Rice14

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Not much different than when Tyreek Hill scores. Or Zeke Elliot.
Disagree somewhat on Zeke, what he did is not as clear. Probably should never have been suspended.

Tyrek Hill disgusts me, I was outraged by everything as were many others I know. To me, it's a black eye for the league. For whatever reason though, the media seems to have let it go. Maybe because the allegations were months ago, maybe because he wasn't as well known. AB has been the story of the league for a month, so an accusation on Tuesday followed by great play on Sunday will get plenty of negative attention.
 

DrewDawg

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Pats clearly can get back the guaranteed money if Brown is suspended, per Breer's Tweet. Less clear if they can get it back if he goes on the Exempt List, though they can certainly argue under the highlighted ("takes any action that materially undermines the public's respect for, or is materially critical of, the Club, the Player's teammates or the Club's ownership, coaches," etc., guarantees will "null and void."):

View: https://twitter.com/AlbertBreer/status/1171780783717191680


(sorry mobile folks, it's a photo tweet)

I'm sorry, I was told multiple times in these threads that couldn't happen.
 

DrewDawg

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Does the NFLPA have any incentive to cooperate with Goodell on this?
I would think not. If the NFLPA allows a player to go on the exempt list due to a lawsuit, there's a chance that even more threats against their players comes out of the woodwork. "Pay me or I sue and based on what happened with AB...."
 

Dernells Casket n Flagon

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I would think not. If the NFLPA allows a player to go on the exempt list due to a lawsuit, there's a chance that even more threats against their players comes out of the woodwork. "Pay me or I sue and based on what happened with AB...."
We know LT used to send hookers to opponents' rooms the night before games to keep them up. Imagine if all it took was a civil suit being filed against a starting QB the week of a playoff game to keep them out of the game.
 

DrewDawg

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BB speaks in 15 minutes. Which reporter steps up and asks the first question about this?
 

MuzzyField

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Disagree somewhat on Zeke, what he did is not as clear. Probably should never have been suspended.

Tyrek Hill disgusts me, I was outraged by everything as were many others I know. To me, it's a black eye for the league. For whatever reason though, the media seems to have let it go. Maybe because the allegations were months ago, maybe because he wasn't as well known. AB has been the story of the league for a month, so an accusation on Tuesday followed by great play on Sunday will get plenty of negative attention.
Sending the POS (Hill) to the hospital was the only thing Jalen Ramsey did right on Sunday.
 

Carmine Hose

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I've seen some talk about "How did the Patriots security team not know this before they signed him? Nothing was being investigated by police and nothing had been filed on him until yesterday. What other approach should they take?
 
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