He really does have an uncanny ability to sense when Tatum is struggling or lagging (or simply not on playing), and his game kicks up to alpha mode on offense. I really hope we keep Tatum/Brown together through their primes and we never get an answer to his biggest question (what's he look like when he's the man), but sometimes I'm really curious.
Jaylen Brown, Year 7
- Thread starter ifmanis5
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I came here to say the exact same thing.
He saw Tatum was lagging at times and just took control when he had to. It was refreshing to see someone drive to the hoop when other guys were settling for jumpshots.
Give that man the Supermax and let's move on.
We're starting to see the payoff of Ime and Mazz getting the ball in his hands late, and getting him used to those situations. You can play out of the double with Tatum, but letting Brown iso with an advantage and make decisions is a nice alternative that produced a couple great looks.
I think the supermax would already be good value (even as a tradeable piece), but any progression JB makes on-ball really shoots that value up, given how teams load to Tatum in crunchtime.
I remember in the last Philly game of the year thinking how much they missed him. He adds so much speed and attacking from the perimeter, and they really missed that ability to stretch a somewhat slow Sixers team.
Preach
Jaylen's psycho work ethic is really paying off too. Every time that he gets the ball at halfcourt in transition and just "prime John Wall/Russell Westbrook" beats everyone else downcourt for a layup and basically every time he sees "just one guy" on him in a set halfcourt defense and just blasts past that guy for left-handed layup, I think of the videos of him doing dumbbell squat jumps underwater last summer. Guy lives off coaching and extreme workouts, and it continues to appear in games.
Jaylen Brown is a ceiling-raising 16-game player.
He's never going to put up the Luka/Jokic/Tatum "look what I can do with just me + 4 bench guys" on-off numbers that make people jizz, but if you actually have a team of good players, and you want that team to beat other good teams, he's your guy.
He's never going to put up the Luka/Jokic/Tatum "look what I can do with just me + 4 bench guys" on-off numbers that make people jizz, but if you actually have a team of good players, and you want that team to beat other good teams, he's your guy.
Last night he pretty consistently looked like the best player on the floor. His stat line was not otherworldly (although he could hardly miss in the first half) but he was dialed in on both ends and imposed his will on the game.
With Tatum in foul trouble Brown played all but 30 seconds of the 3rd and even though his hot shooting hand cooled off he was playing great defense, dropping dimes, grabbing boards and making steals which played a big role in the Celtics 35-16 run which effectively put the game away.
He had just one turnover for the game and I don’t remember any defensive lapses (two things the Port Cellar sometimes seems hyper focused on).
He won’t play like that every night but he is super important to the team and about as good as it gets in the NBA at the 2/3. To me he has demonstrated that he can be an alpha and I really hope the Celtics supermax him in the off-season regardless of the outcome of these playoffs.
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A few things were different about last night:
- Jaylen's decisions to drive were much better. He made some decisions in Game 1 (and, like, the whole season) where he's shielding the ball from his primary defender as he drives, but got too close to a secondary defender, and got stripped. That happened a few times in game 1 and tends to happen to him a few times per game in general. The difference last night was that those secondary defenders were spaced out much closer to the perimeter and weren't in a position to help (or it was transition and he just played his cards right)
- Harden was visibly less confident, except against Brogdon. He didn't hit his shots, but he also was more hesitant to hoist them, too. Jaylen's defensive footwork and willingness to not just fight over screens and trail but fight to get back in front of his man, put him in a much better position because then the help D can recover to the open guy.
- Some of the times Jaylen got beat off the dribble in Game 1 were footwork issues, but some of that outcome is just energy and focus. Hard to not ascribe some of the difference last night to improved energy and focus.
- Except for fast breaks, he seemed to actively look for the kick-out a lot more. He forced a couple paint shots in game 1, and a few early in game 2, but most of last night he either had a clear path to a shot at the rim, or kicked it out as he should. (I think he was like 1 for 3 on that signature midrange turnaround fade, one of which had Embiid on him)
- Jaylen's decisions to drive were much better. He made some decisions in Game 1 (and, like, the whole season) where he's shielding the ball from his primary defender as he drives, but got too close to a secondary defender, and got stripped. That happened a few times in game 1 and tends to happen to him a few times per game in general. The difference last night was that those secondary defenders were spaced out much closer to the perimeter and weren't in a position to help (or it was transition and he just played his cards right)
- Harden was visibly less confident, except against Brogdon. He didn't hit his shots, but he also was more hesitant to hoist them, too. Jaylen's defensive footwork and willingness to not just fight over screens and trail but fight to get back in front of his man, put him in a much better position because then the help D can recover to the open guy.
- Some of the times Jaylen got beat off the dribble in Game 1 were footwork issues, but some of that outcome is just energy and focus. Hard to not ascribe some of the difference last night to improved energy and focus.
- Except for fast breaks, he seemed to actively look for the kick-out a lot more. He forced a couple paint shots in game 1, and a few early in game 2, but most of last night he either had a clear path to a shot at the rim, or kicked it out as he should. (I think he was like 1 for 3 on that signature midrange turnaround fade, one of which had Embiid on him)
This can't be emphasized enough. We've been pretty critical around here (esp. myself) of Jaylen Brown's defense. Having him lockdown Harden and fight through/over screens on the perimeter is where he is the best version of himself. I'm not sure Jaylen is great in a switch-everything D (has a tendency to get lost off ball) but last night he was the Celtic's most impactful defender. Credit to CJM for putting JB into this position more and more lately.
Being at the top/point of the spear in the halfcourt D is where Brown should be, which makes the C's less Smart dependent (yea I know Marcus had a good game last night). This will let Boston play Brogdon more.
A lot of coaching and roster-building is focusing on what guys can do, rather than what they can't, and putting them in positions to do it.
Agree this is perfect, but probably only works against the Sixers. Maybe you can try it when Lowry is in, too, but the leaner quicker guards will probably be a problem in this role for JB.
The leaner, quicker guards are a problem for everyone but White (and even him somewhat). If get through this and end up getting New York, they're going to have to kitchen sink the guard coverages.
Brown locking in on Harden (he denied James off-ball a lot) was impressive. White is great guarding the smaller/leaner, quicker PGs.
I could see JB handling Brunson, Butler, Bron or Murray with this approach but would want White on Curry.
Exactly. Curry, also Grimes/Quickley. Little fast guys, need White. Brown would be fine on the others, and Smart can handle most of the same guys that he can.
Most teams have a "can't handle elite guard quickness" problem. White helps a shitton with that though.
Brogdon was a flamethrower last night and I think that he has a very specific, important role to play on this team. He’s the best at getting his shot outside of the Jays and he plays a very controlled style, which is definitely needed in the 4th quarter or when things get sloppy
However…..he is a really bad defender. I’m actually kind of shocked at how bad of a defender he is. He’s pretty bad on ball but off ball he is an absolute fucking disaster. The amount he ball watches would make Jaylen blush
I think the play where he fought through the Embiid screen and hit Harden in the face summed it all up.
Brogdon is a decent rebounder, he needs to guard bigger players. BUT agree his perimeter Defensive reactions are sloooowwwww. He can be hidden and the Celtics need his half-court offense
My favorite play was when Brown lit up Tucker's pick, literally getting PJ airborn. Tucker retaliates, by swatting Brown and gets whistled for the foul. Brown runs down to the offensive side of the floor as if nothing happened. That play spoke volumes and will give Doc nightmares the next few nights
Brogdon is a unique, and somewhat flawed, player who is mischaracterized by many based on his offensive game and ability to play the point/combo guard role on that end of the floor. When he’s on the floor in this role he’s often asked to defend these same positions…..which is not a strength of his. It’s similar to Smart being a “point guard” let you don’t want him 40-feet from the basket defending Trae, prime Chris Paul, Ish, etc etc.
There are very few overall great defensive players in this league as most have a niche. Embiid is arguably one of the best interior defenders in the game…..but can be exposed on the perimeter, in space. Brogdon is similar to Grant in that both were elite elite defenders in college…..but they defended the 3, 4 and sometimes 5’s. Just as you wouldn’t place Grant on an island 40-feet from the basket neither should Brogdon….the guy is built to defend midrange 4’s. This is why he’s a great yin to Derrick White’s yang in our rotation and end of game matchups.
Brogdon is a perfect example of where metrics like DARKO (my favorite obviously) don't quite capture defensive impact. It has Brogdon as a slight negative, comparable to Brown. But I think that's likely a function of just how much better the offense runs when he's on the floor. Better conversion, good assist to turnover rates = fewer runouts for opponents. To the eyeball test, he gets ragdolled by bigger guys and really never takes the ball away. His off-ball help is invisible. But his poor defense is mitigated by good offense keeping the bad guys executing against more set defenses.
If anything, this further highlights how bad on defense some of these elite offensive guys are (Trae/Dame, but also Luka/Donovon) that they're able to manage a -1DARKO or worse.
edit: Agree with HRB that he plays up better than he looks, but you don't want him guarding guys like Butler/Leonard either.
I think it's just way harder to play defense in the NBA these days. That's a product of improved shotmaking, but also more rigorous enforcement of illegal defense rules, contact, etc.
Agreed. Just saying that some of these guys are elite bad compared to their contemporary peers, not just to 1987 Dennis Rodman. The fact that their teams can give up so many points with them on the floor despite the opponent inbounding the ball after a crazy high percentage of baskets (again, compared to their peers) is remarkable.
That's a good analogy, Brogdon/White = yin/yang.
Hiding a guy like Brogdon on D is much easier than the shrimpy/volume scorers of the past (Kemba/IT). MB primarily plays against 2nd units which helps a lot. Plus he has the girth/strength to move 5s off the block when switched. He's also a decent rebounder as a 2, but he shouldn't really guard Harden on the perimeter unless we want to watch relentless Free Throws by James.
Absolutely. I just think in the old days you could hide these guys a little better. Like they could grab their man, fake a "double" (play zone), or just be buried on a supporting cast guy who wasn't going to touch the ball while the center pounded it in the paint.
I think the fact he was guarding Harden on purpose speaks to just how awful he is off the ball. It’s very similar to how JB is deployed (except JB is miles better on ball). At least with Harden, Brogdon can somewhat match his physicality, he won’t get bullied by him and it forces Malcolm to focus instead of standing still and aimlessly watching the ball. For all of Hardens faults, he is still a great passer and commands a lot of gravity. If Brogdon is guarding someone else, Harden can pick him apart with passes to cutters or getting into the lane and kicking it back to someone else.
Maybe I need to watch closer, didn't realize Malcolm floated so much off-ball, which is a defensive killer. Jaylen off-ball last night was working over Harden, denying him the ball. It was impressive.
Let me put it to you this way, I almost never notice that type of thing. In fact, the only time it’s ever really stood out to me was with Jaylen.
I’ve noticed it about 4 times with Malcolm these first 2 games and they’ve all been egregious (like him standing flat footed in between the basket and no one)
I am also sort of putting 2+2 together on my own. The coaches watch the same games that we do, so I highly doubt they WANT Malcolm on Harden. But these first 2 games there have been numerous possessions where Malcolm has started off on Harden as if that was the plan
Was at the game last night… a few quick observations:
** When Harden’s 3P shot wasn’t falling, he was reduced to the “sniper shot head snap” drive to the basket. He can’t get to the rim without a week’s rest.
** A handful of Philly’s 3Ps in the first half were three quarters of the way down before popping out. The game could have had a totally different feel if thowe shots had been dropping.
** That Embiid flop was even more egregious in person. There’s something deeply amusing about 20,000 people simultaneously experiencing disbelief and derision.
** Embiid hopped up and down a few times after plays that tested the resilience of his injured leg. He’s FAR from 100%. The blocks were amazing — his ability to anticipate and close out are uncanny for a 7-footer — but if I had to guess, his leg is going to be really angry today.
** The fourth quarter was joyous. Pritchard hitting shots. Kornet cleaning up on the glass. Moose hitting a three. If Hauser or Champagnie had hit from deep, the crowd would have blown the roof off the place.
** The “We Want Blake” chant was a delight.
** When Harden’s 3P shot wasn’t falling, he was reduced to the “sniper shot head snap” drive to the basket. He can’t get to the rim without a week’s rest.
** A handful of Philly’s 3Ps in the first half were three quarters of the way down before popping out. The game could have had a totally different feel if thowe shots had been dropping.
** That Embiid flop was even more egregious in person. There’s something deeply amusing about 20,000 people simultaneously experiencing disbelief and derision.
** Embiid hopped up and down a few times after plays that tested the resilience of his injured leg. He’s FAR from 100%. The blocks were amazing — his ability to anticipate and close out are uncanny for a 7-footer — but if I had to guess, his leg is going to be really angry today.
** The fourth quarter was joyous. Pritchard hitting shots. Kornet cleaning up on the glass. Moose hitting a three. If Hauser or Champagnie had hit from deep, the crowd would have blown the roof off the place.
** The “We Want Blake” chant was a delight.
Yes, I was there last night too and I agree on these points especially. I was seated just about the free throw line and the Harden Zapruder-shots and the Embiid flop were insanely egregious. The refs were atrocious.
The drone was also very noticeable and distracting, but not as awful as the clips from the TNT broadcast.
Totally agree about the drone. Not as bad as it could have been, but they need to rethink using it at all. It’s annoying and adds nothing.
I always considered Brogdon one of the best positional defenders around. Always in the right space and little wasted motion. You don’t have to be jumping around waving your arms wildly to be I positioned properly in the rotation. Aside from his switchability onto bigs this is one of his greatest attributes.
I’ll be watching again and maybe it’s a 2 game blip but thus far this series I think you’re wrong
I wasn’t paying attention to him specially in G1 and last night I was driving during 1H and the 2H was unique in itself so I’ll watch more of him but don’t see how he suddenly became poor in an area where he was always ahead of the curve.
What's stupid is that the video quality from the drone is a known, objective fact. So, no matter how useful or interesting the angle might be, having the video quality drop by at least half is annoying. I don't care if it was a go pro mounted on Jaylen Brown's head I am going to be annoyed by the drop in video quality.
I know broadcasters make mistakes, too, but their miss on the Brogdon 3 which was like 18" past the line was rather odd. I know his foot landed on the line, but that's pretty common. It was just rather weird how much they missed it live (and they did correct themselves later).
They were getting a lot of chicken shit just plain wrong last night. It was pretty annoying.
Reggie said Grant Williams was “6’2 or 6’3”. I couldn’t believe how stupid of a statement it was
Hey, I think I heard once that Malcolm Brogdon won rookie of the year AND the 6th man award /s
Harlan also said something about how GW was huge in the Hawks series and cited 14 points in game 3. I mean he had a nice game... but the Celts lost.
I loved when he won the award and Ernie told him he was the 2nd player to do that, there was a brief moment when Brogdon was intrigued and assumed he was about to be compared to a HOFer...then when he heard the name Mike Miller, he slumped down in his seat.
I do too, but Jaylen has such an explosive first step that Jayson only dreams about. Tatum has to rely more on his skill moves. I'm not saying he's slow - just that when Jaylen is on, it looks like he's playing the game at a different speed than everyone else.
Brown is so strong now that when he gets you on his hip in the paint (like Bron) it's over. On either hand, JB is getting a layup & probably +1. That's grown man strength (which Bron had at 19). Tatum will be there in a year or two
Just FWIW, but Jaylen and Tatum took almost the exact same percentage of shots within 3 feet of the rim this season, 23.5% for Tatum, 24.5% for Jaylen. JB shot 73.7% on them, Tatum shot 73.8%. It’s actually remarkable with how similar they were there. That doesn’t take into account when Tatum gets fouled on them and goes to the line, either.
Same thing with drives to the rim per game, Jaylen drove 11.4 times, Tatum 11.2. For the playoffs Tatum is actually driving slightly more per game.
They just do it differently, and Tatum is usually dealing with defenses loading up on him when he puts the ball down.
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Listening to WEEI yesterday (why, I don't know) and they were talking about how JB and JT are incompatible with each other, which is why JB will be gone after this year. I don't know if JB will be gone, but the idea that they're incompatible? Makes no sense.
They've been together since the 2017-18 season.
They've gone to the ECF three times. They've gone to the NBA Finals once. No, they've never won a championship together. But we keep talking about, with regard to Tatum, that even the greats like LeBron, Curry, Giannis, and Jordan didn't win until age 26 or 27, and Tatum is still younger than that.
But Brown is also just 26 right now, younger than LeBron, Curry, and Jordan were when they won their first titles. It feels like he's a grizzled NBA veteran, but he's not. There's no reason why these two can't work well together now or moving forward. Everyone knows you need more than one great player to win it all.
They've been together since the 2017-18 season.
They've gone to the ECF three times. They've gone to the NBA Finals once. No, they've never won a championship together. But we keep talking about, with regard to Tatum, that even the greats like LeBron, Curry, Giannis, and Jordan didn't win until age 26 or 27, and Tatum is still younger than that.
But Brown is also just 26 right now, younger than LeBron, Curry, and Jordan were when they won their first titles. It feels like he's a grizzled NBA veteran, but he's not. There's no reason why these two can't work well together now or moving forward. Everyone knows you need more than one great player to win it all.
The Red Sox are on a heater, the Celts are coming off a blowout win & have best odds to win the title, the Bruins collapse/Pats draft is old news...so of course they will find the sliver or potential negativity to focus on! They were up 4 with 5 min to go with the potential to go up 3-1 in the NBA finals last year. I've been on record as saying I do not think they win it all this year either. But both have improved year after year, with more room to grow. Perhaps this year will prove to be their best window, but the idea that these two are incompatible and can't win together is legitimately a hilarious bad take. It's incredibly easy to stand on that hill though, because statistically speaking I'd guess at best it's a 50/50 shot Tatum/Brown win a title together? This way, they can still celebrate a victory...but do the whole "I told you so" if they never pull it off.
I haven't followed too, too closely, but isn't it pretty close to assured that Brown makes all nba, meaning the celts can offer him a boatload more money than anyone else?