Jaylen Brown, Year 7

djbayko

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
25,833
Los Angeles, CA
I love this and have been checking it more often than makes sense. One note: Jaylen seems to have a 3rd team guard vote that's not showing up anywhere in the totals. Am I missing something?
This has mostly been answered already. I'll just add that the author of this spreadsheet understands how it works and just hasn't taken the time to figure out how to represent the data yet, so you have to do a little mental addition for the guys who show up with votes under multiple positions.
 

djbayko

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
25,833
Los Angeles, CA
His all NBA ballot? Looks not terrible to me. And he has two open spots still

1st Team - SGA, Mitchell, Tatum, Giannis, Embiid

2nd Team - Fox, Luka, Butler, Jokic

3rd team - Curry, James, Randle, Sabonis
He gave Fox an MVP vote...

But he put Fox on the 2nd All-NBA team...

And didn't give either of the guards he placed on 1st All-NBA team (SGA nor Donovan Mitchell) an MVP vote.

Huh?
 

FanRoy

New Member
Aug 14, 2008
48
Orlando, FL
Aren’t you all making this more complicated than it needs to be RE Jaylen’s +/- when he’s off the court or am I underthinking it…?

When Jaylen sits, it is likely that “bench” or non-starter units are in on both teams. Our non-starting unit is *significantly* stronger than most every other teams. Therefore, it’s likely that the Celtics are actually “better” without Jaylen on the court in the sense that our bench is better than other teams’ benches by a larger margin than our starters are better than other teams’ starters. Or am I completely misapplying how those numbers work?
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
29,951
Aren’t you all making this more complicated than it needs to be RE Jaylen’s +/- when he’s off the court or am I underthinking it…?

When Jaylen sits, it is likely that “bench” or non-starter units are in on both teams. Our non-starting unit is *significantly* stronger than most every other teams. Therefore, it’s likely that the Celtics are actually “better” without Jaylen on the court in the sense that our bench is better than other teams’ benches by a larger margin than our starters are better than other teams’ starters. Or am I completely misapplying how those numbers work?
No you are not misapplying it. One more reason why +/- is hot garbage and nothing but noise when evaluating individual players as it is greatly affected by the play of your teammates.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
11,815
Jaylen doesn't fit how an All-NBA player is "supposed" to look. People expect high-volume creators, DPOY centers, uber-efficient iso guys like peak Kawhi. Jaylen is more like the slashing wing version of Klay Thompson: he juices up an entire team hard, and works great when playing with high IQ players who make others around them better.

Put another way: if you have a team of guys who make guys around them better, it's really useful to have a guy who's good at getting made better.

Jaylen wouldn't be the #1 offensive option on any of the title contenders, but he'd be the #2 on all of them except the Suns, and that's really valuable.
Thinking about this more, another way to put this is that the guys with Jaylen's Pointz+Narrative profile are usually floor-raisers and 82 game players, whereas Jaylen is much more of a ceiling-raiser and a 16-game player.

If you put Tatum on the Rockets, the Rockets become decent overnight, whereas I don't know that that's true about Jaylen. We see this in the +/- numbers with Tatum and roleplayers. However, the Celtics ceiling falls dramatically without Jaylen: they're a 2nd-round exit team without him.

His game holds up well in the playoffs: he can make tough shots, he focuses more on defense, etc. The 2018 run was narratively about Tatum, but a lot of that was Jaylen taking his game to a new level once that postseason started.

I think that's what I was getting at in saying he'd be the #2 offensive option on most playoff teams: he dramatically raises the ceiling of any contender without being a floor-raiser himself, much like prime Klay.

People expect ceiling-raiser complementary guys to have really high TS% and be more of shooters (Klay, Middleton), so Jaylen throws off analysis a bit by elevating his postseason game in other ways.

Ironically, all of this is an argument for why he shouldn't get a bump in All-NBA voting, but it looks like narrative+injuries are going to get him onto the 2nd or 3rd team, since no one is really buying Lauri or Randle over him.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
19,884
Santa Monica
Aren’t you all making this more complicated than it needs to be RE Jaylen’s +/- when he’s off the court or am I underthinking it…?

When Jaylen sits, it is likely that “bench” or non-starter units are in on both teams. Our non-starting unit is *significantly* stronger than most every other teams. Therefore, it’s likely that the Celtics are actually “better” without Jaylen on the court in the sense that our bench is better than other teams’ benches by a larger margin than our starters are better than other teams’ starters. Or am I completely misapplying how those numbers work?
who Tatum and Brown play "with" and when they play pretty much evens out over 2400 minutes this year (& 6 seasons together)

On-Off over a full season is one of the better measures we have of comparing starting teammates vs. the other (ie Tatum vs Brown)...

On-Off is only hot garbage over a game, a week, a month....or comparing players from different teams (where you can add +/- per100 to get a better picture). When combined and used in context they have no bias over the course of a season
 
Last edited:

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
29,951
who Tatum and Brown play "with" and when they play pretty much evens out over 2400 minutes this year (& 6 seasons together)

On-Off over a full season is one of the better measures we have of comparing starting teammates vs. the other (ie Tatum vs Brown)...

On-Off is only hot garbage over a game, a week, a month....or comparing players from different teams (where you can add +/- per100 to get a better picture). When combined and used in context they have no bias over the course of a season
One month of admittedly hot garbage becomes the holy grail once this said hot garbage achieves a larger sample of garbagity? Ok I’ll stop bc we won’t ever agree.
 

RorschachsMask

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2011
5,089
Lynn
I think the on/off thing is relatively straight forward, Jaylen isn’t a guy who raises the play of guys around him. He needs two other good players out there with him for the most part, and this team can pretty much always do that, which is why the team had a +3.4 net rating with Jaylen on/Tatum off this season.

It was said above, but he’s a ceiling raiser, not a floor raiser. Which is fine, as there’s an only handful of guys in the league who are both floor and ceiling raisers, and the Celtics have one of them already.

All stars come in all different kind of ways, and Jaylen is very good at what he’s good at.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
19,884
Santa Monica
One month of admittedly hot garbage becomes the holy grail once this said hot garbage achieves a larger sample of garbagity? Ok I’ll stop bc we won’t ever agree.
Ha, it's all relative. The stat itself isn't "hot garbage", the way the media/people apply it is garbage.
1 month > 1 week > 1 day...its very, very sample size dependent since it's all-encompassing.

On-Off & +/- per 100 over a season is an effective way to see how a team performs when the player plays & doesn't play. It's also good at capturing the stuff that happens on a court outside of box score/triple slash stats.

Ball denial, screens, getting back in transition, off-ball movement, help defense, boxing out, taking fouls, rotating, challenging shots, not fouling, spreading the defense, getting additional defensive attention etc etc etc all matter when it comes to the scoreboard. A combination of On-Off & +/-, over a season, will pick that stuff up.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,053
Yeah, On/off and +/- are basically descriptive stats, over a season they tell you what happened, and when you're talking about thousands of minutes they are good. Small samples like most stats are going to be too swingy. It's like arguing 3pt% is a bad stat because it's useless over a week... over a season it tells you something. That's true of basically all stats. They capture a lot of stuff that is hard for the eye to see, but you need a big enough sample to smooth out the outliers and weird occurrences.
 

SteveF

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
1,843
Some of it is the way he gets used in non-Tatum minutes. White probably needs to be stapled to Brown anytime Tatum isn't on the floor and White needs to run the offense.

I like Brown as a player, but am a bit surprised about the level of all-NBA support he is getting. He hasn't been as good a shooter this year (relative to league TS%) and his passing just hasn't advanced much over last season. I don't feel great about giving him a supermax, but it's probably the only way he stays and I would feel even less good about trading him for picks or letting him walk for nothing.
 

DGreenwood

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 2, 2003
2,427
Seattle
This has mostly been answered already. I'll just add that the author of this spreadsheet understands how it works and just hasn't taken the time to figure out how to represent the data yet, so you have to do a little mental addition for the guys who show up with votes under multiple positions.
The issue was that JB was not showing up on the list of guards that have received votes. It's fixed now.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,274
around the way
who Tatum and Brown play "with" and when they play pretty much evens out over 2400 minutes this year (& 6 seasons together)

On-Off over a full season is one of the better measures we have of comparing starting teammates vs. the other (ie Tatum vs Brown)...

On-Off is only hot garbage over a game, a week, a month....or comparing players from different teams (where you can add +/- per100 to get a better picture). When combined and used in context they have no bias over the course of a season
I think that any metric that doesn't regress for the guys that you're on the court with is suspect. That's not an argument for Brown vs. Tatum of course because those metrics indicate that Tatum is a far superior impact guy also. But raw is raw.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
19,884
Santa Monica
Some of it is the way he gets used in non-Tatum minutes. White probably needs to be stapled to Brown anytime Tatum isn't on the floor and White needs to run the offense.

I like Brown as a player, but am a bit surprised about the level of all-NBA support he is getting. He hasn't been as good a shooter this year (relative to league TS%) and his passing just hasn't advanced much over last season. I don't feel great about giving him a supermax, but it's probably the only way he stays and I would feel even less good about trading him for picks or letting him walk for nothing.
I like Jaylen Brown a lot. Hopefully, he signs a long-term extension this summer.

The "ceiling rising" argument by @lovegtm sounds about right.

Using the eye test, I'd guess the three things that ding his On-Off/100 this season are:
1. Live ball turnovers. No other play in basketball is more scoreboard negative than turning the ball over on offense that turns into an uncontested layup for the opponent
2. Below average 3pt shooting in volume. Launching a lot of 3s when teamed with 3 of the TOP12 NBA 3pt shooters will show up in regards to On-Off.
3. Off-ball defense. CJM has done a great job of putting JB at the top of the defense. He's a good on-ball defender. BUT JB's tunnel vision gets exposed sometimes when he is off-ball, switching, or when he suppose to help from the weak side.

TOs and off-ball D have always been negatives for JB. I'd expect Brown's (and Tatum's) 3pt shooting to be better next season.

I think that any metric that doesn't regress for the guys that you're on the court with is suspect. That's not an argument for Brown vs. Tatum of course because those metrics indicate that Tatum is a far superior impact guy also. But raw is raw.
Thats fair. I'm fine with going with raw for over 2400 minutes, a combo of +/- & On-Off correlates pretty well with DARKO, which is probably the best adv metric out there.
 

Auger34

used to be tbb
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
9,096
If everyone in the NBA was fully healthy and played all 82 games, Jaylen wouldn’t make All NBA. I don’t think literally anyone in this thread is claiming otherwise. I am a massive Jaylen fan but he’s not quite on that level.

For this season, one with a lot of injuries/players sitting out (cough Kawhi cough), he is an All-NBA player.

Honestly, the argument seems to boil down to Jaylen Vs. Randle Vs. Markkanen. Their stats this year are all relatively close…so in my mind this is the tiebreaker.

If you polled NBA executives and scouts who they wanted for one game this year (or for that matter who they wanted going forward for their careers or just next year) does anyone think the results would be close? I imagine Jaylen would get upwards of 75% of the votes.
 

TripleOT

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2007
7,729
Mazzulla tends to pull JT 5-6 minutes into the first and third quarter, and then re-insert him with the bomb squad bench unit, which is superior to benches of most other NBA teams.

JB tends to play more against starters. When it’s KB and four reserves, he doesn’t get to initiate offense as much as Tatum does, and t nds to get lost as Brogdon operates or tries to set up one of the great three point shooting reserves.
 

RorschachsMask

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2011
5,089
Lynn
Just checked the ballots for the first time in awhile. Jaylen has been left off of 6 of the last 10 complete ballots that have been uploaded, which surprised me. As of now here’s the points at forward, some voters have only made one or two of their picks public, so there’s some incomplete ballots to take into account.

Giannis: 100
Tatum: 85 (10 at guard, so 95 overall)
Butler: 41
Jaylen: 23 (1 at guard, so 24 overall)
Randle: 15
Lauri: 15
Luka: 13 (way more at guard, so won’t matter)
LeBron: 11
AD: 9
 

TripleOT

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2007
7,729
Jaylen has been left off of 6 of the last 10 complete ballots that have been uploaded. As of now here’s the points at forward, some voters have only made one or two of their picks public, so there’s some incomplete ballots to take into account.

Giannis: 100
Tatum: 85 (10 at guard, so 95 overall)
Butler: 41
Jaylen: 23 (1 at guard, so 24 overall)
Randle: 15
Lauri: 15
Luka: 13 (way more at guard, so won’t matter)
LeBron: 11
AD: 9
Do the people who vote follow the NBA closely? Tatum hasn’t started a game at guard all season.
 

Euclis20

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2004
7,860
Imaginationland
Do the people who vote follow the NBA closely? Tatum hasn’t started a game at guard all season.
I've seen some of the arguments from the voters who did this, and I'm coming around on them. The league lets voters put him at guard, so if the voter wants to get the best 5 players on 1st team (by having a frontcourt of Jokic/Embiid/Giannis), putting Tatum at guard is the way to do it. The voting will be position-less starting next year anyway. If he somehow ended up at guard (so that Embiid or Jokic could get one of the 1st team forward spots), it would mean that the 6th best guard would lose out to the 4th best center (likely Bam). Meh.
 

TripleOT

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2007
7,729
I've seen some of the arguments from the voters who did this, and I'm coming around on them. The league lets voters put him at guard, so if the voter wants to get the best 5 players on 1st team (by having a frontcourt of Jokic/Embiid/Giannis), putting Tatum at guard is the way to do it. The voting will be position-less starting next year anyway. If he somehow ended up at guard (so that Embiid or Jokic could get one of the 1st team forward spots), it would mean that the 6th best guard would lose out to the 4th best center (likely Bam). Meh.
The voters are charged with picking the three best centers, six best forwards, and six best guards. If they can’t do that with integrity, don’t vote.
 

Auger34

used to be tbb
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
9,096
Just checked the ballots for the first time in awhile. Jaylen has been left off of 6 of the last 10 complete ballots that have been uploaded, which surprised me. As of now here’s the points at forward, some voters have only made one or two of their picks public, so there’s some incomplete ballots to take into account.

Giannis: 100
Tatum: 85 (10 at guard, so 95 overall)
Butler: 41
Jaylen: 23 (1 at guard, so 24 overall)
Randle: 15
Lauri: 15
Luka: 13 (way more at guard, so won’t matter)
LeBron: 11
AD: 9
it bothers me more than it should but some of those ballots are just bad. Still looks like Jaylen will make 2nd team All NBA
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
11,815
Just checked the ballots for the first time in awhile. Jaylen has been left off of 6 of the last 10 complete ballots that have been uploaded, which surprised me. As of now here’s the points at forward, some voters have only made one or two of their picks public, so there’s some incomplete ballots to take into account.

Giannis: 100
Tatum: 85 (10 at guard, so 95 overall)
Butler: 41
Jaylen: 23 (1 at guard, so 24 overall)
Randle: 15
Lauri: 15
Luka: 13 (way more at guard, so won’t matter)
LeBron: 11
AD: 9
The good news for Jaylen is that voters don't seem to be taking KD and Kawhi seriously, due to games missed. That puts him in competition with Randle and Lauri, whom he beats often due to having pretty much the same case, but being better.

Even if LeBron or AD made a huge push, Jaylen probably still beats out Randle and Lauri, which gets him on All-NBA.

I guess the other good thing for Jaylen is that everyone seems to be treating him as a forward, which was the big question going into all this.
 

Average Game James

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 28, 2016
4,330
I've seen some of the arguments from the voters who did this, and I'm coming around on them. The league lets voters put him at guard, so if the voter wants to get the best 5 players on 1st team (by having a frontcourt of Jokic/Embiid/Giannis), putting Tatum at guard is the way to do it. The voting will be position-less starting next year anyway. If he somehow ended up at guard (so that Embiid or Jokic could get one of the 1st team forward spots), it would mean that the 6th best guard would lose out to the 4th best center (likely Bam). Meh.
Edit: I’m dumb
 
Last edited:

DGreenwood

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 2, 2003
2,427
Seattle
There is absolutely zero merit to that argument. Tatum is a forward and will make whatever all-NBA team he ends up on based on votes he accumulates as a forward. Putting him as first team guard is functionally equivalent to leaving him off the ballot. As a voter, you’re doing more to help Tatum make first team by voting him second team forward than first team guard.
This is wrong. The votes he gets at guard are added to his total points at forward. All votes count toward total points.
 
Last edited:

DGreenwood

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 2, 2003
2,427
Seattle
Did they change this since Tatum got screwed out of the Designated Rookie Supermax?
They didn't change it, and Tatum didn't get as screwed as the media wanted you to believe. Tatum received votes at forward and guard that year. He received more votes at forward so he was classified a forward (as he should be). All of his votes at forward and guard counted toward his total but it was not enough to beat out any of the six forwards ahead of him.

If he was classified as a guard, he would have had enough total points to make it as a guard, but he's not a guard.
 

TomRicardo

rusty cohlebone
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 6, 2006
20,559
Row 14
They didn't change it, and Tatum didn't get as screwed as the media wanted you to believe. Tatum received votes at forward and guard that year. He received more votes at forward so he was classified a forward (as he should be). All of his votes at forward and guard counted toward his total but it was not enough to beat out any of the six forwards ahead of him.

If he was classified as a guard, he would have had enough total points to make it as a guard, but he's not a guard.
Yea you are right I forgot how that went.
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2005
41,725
The voters are charged with picking the three best centers, six best forwards, and six best guards. If they can’t do that with integrity, don’t vote.
This is exactly right. Here is Broussard's ballot, it's a fucking joke, has nothing to do with the rules he was put in place to vote upon:

1st team:

Guard: Mitchell, TATUM
Forward: Giannis, EMBIID
Center: Jokic

2nd team:

Guard: Fox, SGA
Forward: Jaylen, DONCIC
Center: AD

3rd team:

Guard: Ja, Curry
Forward: Lebron, Randle
Center: Sabonis

So he put Tatum at guard, because he thinks he deserves 1st team, but had to put him at guard, because he wanted to put Embiid first team and didn't want to leave Jokic off first team. Then he moves Doncic to forward because he wants Curry/Fox/SGA/Ja to all have spots at guard...

If we're just going to fucking make up our own rules, so be it, but it's just asinine.
 

the moops

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 19, 2016
4,620
Saint Paul, MN
Do the people who vote follow the NBA closely? Tatum hasn’t started a game at guard all season.
If the lineup only has one of Smart/Brogdon/White in it, I don't see any reason why Tatum couldn't be considered the other guard in that case. Neither he nor Jaylen really play guard, but one of them would be covering the opposing SG or PG in that situation.

A few lineups that have seen a decent amount of run, and where Tatum could technically be the other guard

Smart, Brown, Tatum, Grant, Horford
Smart, Brown, Tatum, TL, Horford
Brogdon, Hauser, Tatum, Grant, Kornet

But yea, I would lean on Jaylen being the guard in any lineup that had both he and Tatum
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2005
41,725
But yea, I would lean on Jaylen being the guard in any lineup that had both he and Tatum
Except the starting lineup, I guess?

Marcus started 61 games

Derrick White started 70 games.

When one of them comes out, usually Brogdon goes in. There are some rare instances during the season when 2 of TL/Al/Grant played together, but for the most part, the vast majority of lineups this year with Brown and Tatum included 2 guards and 1 big.

I'm sure someone with a better ability to use the lineup stats on nba.com can show this easier, but I'll bet Jaylen played more than 75% of his minutes this year at small forward, including almost every starting lineup.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,274
around the way
If the lineup only has one of Smart/Brogdon/White in it, I don't see any reason why Tatum couldn't be considered the other guard in that case. Neither he nor Jaylen really play guard, but one of them would be covering the opposing SG or PG in that situation.

A few lineups that have seen a decent amount of run, and where Tatum could technically be the other guard

Smart, Brown, Tatum, Grant, Horford
Smart, Brown, Tatum, TL, Horford
Brogdon, Hauser, Tatum, Grant, Kornet

But yea, I would lean on Jaylen being the guard in any lineup that had both he and Tatum
The funny part of all of this archaic roster nomenclature is that I look at a lineup of Smart, Brown, Tatum, Grant, and Horford and see five guys who basically play different flavors of "wing" most of the time. Not seeing the numbers at all, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see that Smart posted up more than Horford this past year.
 

RorschachsMask

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2011
5,089
Lynn
Except the starting lineup, I guess?

Marcus started 61 games

Derrick White started 70 games.

When one of them comes out, usually Brogdon goes in. There are some rare instances during the season when 2 of TL/Al/Grant played together, but for the most part, the vast majority of lineups this year with Brown and Tatum included 2 guards and 1 big.

I'm sure someone with a better ability to use the lineup stats on nba.com can show this easier, but I'll bet Jaylen played more than 75% of his minutes this year at small forward, including almost every starting lineup.
In their ten most used lineups with Jaylen in, he played SF for 712 minutes, and then SG for 488 minutes.

Was a little closer than I expected, but he was still overwhelmingly at the 3.
 
Last edited:

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2005
41,725
In their ten most used lineups with Jaylen in, he played SF for 712 minutes, and then SG for 488 minutes.

Was a little closer than I expected, but he was still overwhelmingly at the 3.
That's closer than I expected too.

If I'm reading it right, Jaylen played 432 minutes at the 3, in a lineup with Tatum/Horford/Smart/White.

The next closest 2 are when they replaced White for Grant (179 minutes) or replaced Smart for Grant (112 minutes).

Then you have 110 minutes with Tatum/Horford/Brown/Smart/Brogdon.

Below that, we're already at 81 minutes when TL/Horford are both in the lineup. Drops to 71 minutes after that...

If we're going to get down to these numbers, there was 37 minutes where they played Horford/Brown/Smart/White/Brogdon. Jaylen was a 4 at that point. LOL

I think when your top 4 lineups include 532 minutes with Brown at the 3, and 291 minutes with Brown at the 2, he's really a 3.

Now, if TL and Al/Grant get a ton of minutes together in the playoffs, Brown becomes a 2, but that means leaving 2 of White/Brogdon/Smart on the bench, obviously. I think if matchups didn't matter, 2 of those guys are always on the court, and Brown/Tatum are playing the 3/4 and TL/Horford are splitting minutes or Horford is playing the 4 when Tatum/Brown get a breather.

I just don't see any real argument that says Brown should be voted as a guard over a forward, even if the numbers weren't as lopsided as I thought.
 

RorschachsMask

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2011
5,089
Lynn
That's closer than I expected too.

If I'm reading it right, Jaylen played 432 minutes at the 3, in a lineup with Tatum/Horford/Smart/White.

The next closest 2 are when they replaced White for Grant (179 minutes) or replaced Smart for Grant (112 minutes).

Then you have 110 minutes with Tatum/Horford/Brown/Smart/Brogdon.

Below that, we're already at 81 minutes when TL/Horford are both in the lineup. Drops to 71 minutes after that...

If we're going to get down to these numbers, there was 37 minutes where they played Horford/Brown/Smart/White/Brogdon. Jaylen was a 4 at that point. LOL

I think when your top 4 lineups include 532 minutes with Brown at the 3, and 291 minutes with Brown at the 2, he's really a 3.

Now, if TL and Al/Grant get a ton of minutes together in the playoffs, Brown becomes a 2, but that means leaving 2 of White/Brogdon/Smart on the bench, obviously. I think if matchups didn't matter, 2 of those guys are always on the court, and Brown/Tatum are playing the 3/4 and TL/Horford are splitting minutes or Horford is playing the 4 when Tatum/Brown get a breather.

I just don't see any real argument that says Brown should be voted as a guard over a forward, even if the numbers weren't as lopsided as I thought.
He 1000000% should be a forward on the ballot lol, and most of his votes will be there so the guard votes won’t hurt him. I’m just really surprised he’s been left off as many of the most recent ballots as he has.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
19,884
Santa Monica
This is exactly right. Here is Broussard's ballot, it's a fucking joke, has nothing to do with the rules he was put in place to vote upon:

1st team:

Guard: Mitchell, TATUM
Forward: Giannis, EMBIID
Center: Jokic

2nd team:

Guard: Fox, SGA
Forward: Jaylen, DONCIC
Center: AD

3rd team:

Guard: Ja, Curry
Forward: Lebron, Randle
Center: Sabonis

So he put Tatum at guard, because he thinks he deserves 1st team, but had to put him at guard, because he wanted to put Embiid first team and didn't want to leave Jokic off first team. Then he moves Doncic to forward because he wants Curry/Fox/SGA/Ja to all have spots at guard...

If we're just going to fucking make up our own rules, so be it, but it's just asinine.
His vote benefitted Jaylen, so no complaints with Broussard

The whole thing is asinine, to begin with, so just care about the outcome (being able to offer a super MAX this summer)
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,053
basketball reference tends to be the most likely to classify a guy at another position.
they have Jaylen at 61/39 Forward to Guard
Tatum is 94% Forward, 3% guard, 3% center.
 

Reverend

for king and country
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2007
63,564
NBATV talking up Jaylen.

Seems like there’s a whole ground swell of NBA types to make clear that they all think JB is fucking legit good.
 

TripleOT

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2007
7,729
basketball reference tends to be the most likely to classify a guy at another position.
they have Jaylen at 61/39 Forward to Guard
Tatum is 94% Forward, 3% guard, 3% center.
Tatum’s 3 percent at guard this season without another wing and a PG was with in little used lineups: Tatum, a PG, Grant, a center, and Hauser, and in actuality, Hauser was playing SG, and Tatum point forward.
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 26, 2006
13,975
What are we thinking is going on with the hand? Lots of grabbing at it, especially after the 4Q dunk, which led to him coming out of the game. But then no trainer attention? And he came back in with 4 to play in a game that was ... in hand? Color me confused.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,274
around the way
What are we thinking is going on with the hand? Lots of grabbing at it, especially after the 4Q dunk, which led to him coming out of the game. But then no trainer attention? And he came back in with 4 to play in a game that was ... in hand? Color me confused.
He hurt it on one of his blocked shots (Murray?). Not sure if it was on the block or the landing afterwards.

I just assumed that it was a dislocation that he popped back in, but he was favoring it a lot in those last few minutes. Hope that it's nothing. Doesn't hurt that it's his off hand. Noticed that he did dribble out the clock and had to go to the left to do it. So that hand works, but it hurts.

p.s. FWIW, I'm in the HRB camp of "it's never over until the clock goes to 0:00" mentality on this stuff. Trae can shoot from anywhere, and if Murray lost a shoe last night it might have gone through the hoop with his rabbit's foot ball luck that he had going on. A ten point lead with a minute plus left...I don't blame Joe for leaving everyone in to run it down to zeroes.
 

Auger34

used to be tbb
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
9,096
I noticed he was also fidgeting with his mask a lot (way more than I remember him ever doing). Seemed like it was a rough outing for him physically
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
11,815
p.s. FWIW, I'm in the HRB camp of "it's never over until the clock goes to 0:00" mentality on this stuff. Trae can shoot from anywhere, and if Murray lost a shoe last night it might have gone through the hoop with his rabbit's foot ball luck that he had going on. A ten point lead with a minute plus left...I don't blame Joe for leaving everyone in to run it down to zeroes.
Wasn't it 22 with 2:14 left? That rounds to impossible, in terms of comeback possibilities.

Fwiw though, I'm very much in the camp of "it's 2 minutes of not that intense basketball, and incredibly unlikely something bad happens", so this is really nitpicking at the margins.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,274
around the way
I noticed he was also fidgeting with his mask a lot (way more than I remember him ever doing). Seemed like it was a rough outing for him physically
Yeah I noticed that two different times. Once was definitely just a rub, where he didn't really recoil when it happened.
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 26, 2006
13,975
He hurt it on one of his blocked shots (Murray?). Not sure if it was on the block or the landing afterwards.

I just assumed that it was a dislocation that he popped back in, but he was favoring it a lot in those last few minutes. Hope that it's nothing. Doesn't hurt that it's his off hand. Noticed that he did dribble out the clock and had to go to the left to do it. So that hand works, but it hurts.

p.s. FWIW, I'm in the HRB camp of "it's never over until the clock goes to 0:00" mentality on this stuff. Trae can shoot from anywhere, and if Murray lost a shoe last night it might have gone through the hoop with his rabbit's foot ball luck that he had going on. A ten point lead with a minute plus left...I don't blame Joe for leaving everyone in to run it down to zeroes.
Oh, I was assuming his stitches opened back up again. Was it a new injury?
 

Light-Tower-Power

ask me about My Pillow
SoSH Member
Jun 14, 2013
15,886
Nashua, NH
Jaylen said that his "hand is doing good and getting better each day" in his postgame interview last night so unless he's completely blowing smoke I'm guessing it isn't a big deal.